I read it. I love it. We will be selling it afterwards. You should buy it. Its beautiful. And i said beautiful because its also a photo book as well as a great collection of stories that really reveal america. Chris is the first guy ive had on stage at a guy who has a phd in physics. Then he used a phd in physics to go into finance, then when he had this job in finance, he started going for walks during the day, ill a bridge destroyed because its in the book. His walks got longer and longer he ended up at hunts point which if you know your geography is not terribly close to the financial district. At hunts point he was exposed to what he called the backdrop of america. And this is drug addicts, drug dealers, prostitutes. It convinced him he needed to figure out what was going on in this background across the country. So from lewiston maine to bakersfield california, chris traveled the country, talk to people and again he wasnt doing the same sort of going around the country trip a lot of people do. It was visiting the back row. It was drug addicts introduced, the prostitutes, the homeless, the formally homeless, the veterans, immigrants, the people who have had the immigrants anl of that. But then recently if you follow twitter you will know chris has visited the most deplorable group of all, which is conservatives. Hes here at 80prostitutes and tax collected. Chris has gone far lower visiting the tax cutters. But again i do recommend this book but i want to start by what hit me most in your discussion here was introspection into the mindset of the front row. Here we are at aei, where almost all of us scholars have fancy degrees. Here we are in washington, d. C. , the wealthiest argued with the wealthiest region in the country, and definitely the most educated region in the country. So i want to start with, im a catholic. The homilies i like best of most directed at the obvious. You talk about the denigration by the front row of what you call quote forms of noncredentialed meaning. In other words, people finding meaning outside of degrees, outside of jobs, outside of income, outside of a nice house, in other things. Can you talk to us about what you found around the country in that regard. Is first of all thank you all for coming and thank you for having me. Tim also wrote a book by the way. And you should read that. Yeah, so i guess what what i say is i divide the world in front and back room. The macro is the people youll be seeing on the screens here, people i took pictures of, people who live in the bronx, people who live in north side of milwaukee, people who live in portsmouth. Ohio. Its people, its not defined by geography, not necessary by income although it is very much income. Its not defined by race. Its people who dont go to college or if they go to college they go to state schools or Community College. The contrast of that is my prayer life i have a phd in physics. I spent 20 years as a bond trader. Thats what i call the front to which his people who look very different, come from all over the world, come from all of the u. S. But share a common theme in that their life pretty much since 16 has been through the same institutions from harvard, princeton, yale, postgraduate degrees, internships, maybe moving to new city, 80 moving to d. C. But only certain neighborhoods in new york city and only certain neighborhoods in d. C. And we run the world. To be kind of blood, the front row sets the rules. We make the rules. We run the politics to we run banking. We run the law firms. We run a database, universities. One of the things weve done is weve defined the world very nearly in my mind. We defined a look at what i didnt this article positive way which would only get material things and in particular how much material things you get, which economic capital you get is a function the wrestling is. The resume, its a credentialed economy. The things i found traditional ways with things you dont need a resume for to place the value of the friendships that you form in that neighborhood. I always laugh when i think about and just talking and talking and interview them at our number telling somebody wrapping up an interview they were born 20 miles down the roa road. And so you live your whole life all your life . He said no. I said what you mean . He said i was raised 20 miles down the road. [laughing] like, he wanted me to get it right. Or those women in cairo, and africanamerican town in missouri who i said you are from cairo, write what she said no. Im from a mile outside of cairo. So those things matter. Place matters to people. Theres a lot of value in place. Another, and another thing that matters that also does this require credentials is religion, faith. The third which is dangerous one is race, racial identity. These are things where it effectively you can walk, things that give you meaning, give you value that we cant quantify, we cant measure but also i think we over time the front row is assumed dont have value because we cant measure it. We just tell people just move, go from a to b. Whats the cost of that. The cost is immense. So the way we think about the world is a very narrow framework of one of one thing mattering at that thing that matters is a resume, education, and how much money you make. Its immeasurable and thats a really, or its hard to measure where you are from community bonds, faith, et cetera and thats something that ive seen admitted. One economist speaking here said that when she saw the book hillbilly elegy she really didnt like it. None of her friends did because it was emphasizing things that were so vague and every, like 95 and they were looking for other ways to measure success or value or anything like that. But also i think it strikes a lot of people as arbitrary, which is to say you see articles. There was an article in the Washington Post that had in headline loyalty is dumb. People will cause a talk about the accident of where you were born and we can say its unfortunate the accident were oe you born to determine the outcome. But i could of where you were born doesnt seem like an accident or something to be swapped off like change and become a peer or anything. It seems to actually matter to a lot of people it in the front row it seems arbitrary and that clinging to it seems unwise, imprudent, inefficient and backwards. Right. So thats why say we devalue them because we cant measure them. We are genuinely a quantitative bunch of the front row. Thats the way we think about policy. When i think back, the whole moving thing, when i think back to where i disagree with a lot of conservatives is i dont like free trade. I think its awful. The way we think about free trade is its a tradeoff. Its a positive. It will be winners and losers and more winners than it will be losers, game over, were going to do it. But we dont know what the losses are because we cant measure the losses. On a spreadsheet the losses look like a factory gone in milwaukee but in real life it, a factory gone in milwaukee which destroys community is which destroys families which destroys kids being born out of wedlock which brings in drugs. But often more than that it takes way peoples meaning. Like that was the center of the universe, being able to live in milwaukee, stay there. I think you can measure it. Besides hitting an alltime high, its the way to measure the fact that the effects of free trade have not been distributed evenly across the country but have been very uneven and the places you talk about have not experienced a slight decrease in the equilibrium wage, but when the factory shutdown of lot more happened than just less money was flowing in. Exactly. The other thing was the iteration to the solution was just move. It comes from the right by the way. The whole uhaul thing which is so offensive. Chris you and i both moved to places where we have best job opportunities. New york and for me it was dc is hard to say, if you care about this person, when there are no jobs and friends are running rampant, its unlikely what would you tell this. Timothy further, ive never told anybody not to move. But who might and speaking to is to the policy people. They also said the moving has no cost. References all of the time but theres a woman the book who is a prime example that this mexicanamerican woman i met at mcdonalds dc late it was staying in east la to go to the to the local Community College by passing go to Different School because she was angered the her mothers translator. Her mamas firstgeneration like a lot of older immigrants. She does documents for her mother. Like why, do we think and should we think, that that is right decision in my mind friday and in many ways, why should we expect people just to be to tear the bonds or the family bonds at low prices. And also, getting back to the meeting, list of value to people. They dont require money to have those, the really in the latest. Those are things that were gifted everything to take those away from people, is essentially, extraordinary elitist. So i am here and people know me and recognize me in part of it is, 20 years i have put in work and ive had jobs and have been a boss, i have written a book. That helps you get these credentials and get meaning. If youre still in your hometown, you are known in your conditiocredentials and maybe fr havings bedroom for 20 years and maybe help people mover for whatever it is. Again to talk about what is valued, one of the words that become really negative is tribal of his unfortunate tribalism has become so negative. We know that it is politics, what side you are on not thinking for yourself. But after brexit read this column by felix who help travelers take the fisher men are whatever hurt wanting to leave and just caring about them. Then he described his group of friends in hermiston going to lose because they were all, and his friends were constantly traveling to the rest of europe. And they were enjoying the food from the rest of europe. As you described it, you talk about your group and the shared experience and roles necessarily to succeed. And we have dedicated to knowledge and learning as much as we could but almost as much as we could from books. The tribe seems to think that its above tribalism. And that tribalism is actually necessary which is my argument. I dont if you agree with this but people need to belong. They need to be a valued member of something larger than themselves. Is that a church group, is that, a law firm, is that a bowling league. But people need to be a valued member. I think the front row, you talked about and i think the better grip is the end group, the cool kids. And we set the rules of what is cool. And as such, we dont necessarily, no one in the universe like to see them selves as part of the group. What you talking about. I dont have that because is not privileged. What you talking about. The title of my book is dignity because when you taking these things away from people and you taken the non meaning in place and you make people feel like theyre in the rat race. They can build a resume to make money to be a widget to be moved out. That is looking for dignity. The dignity, is a doubleedged sword. The search for dignity can be positive. Ive seen this in the bronx in creating art and being a member of your community while raising a family theres also undignified and theres ways we would rather try to not find it. I think part of that is going to the racing which you can find dignity tribalism and racial identity. Chris i think people when theyre humiliated, they search for a way to find the dignity. There is negative consequences of that. I think that some of you are seeing politically these days, a tribe trump rallies are truly. Very much eight non resume, non traditional meeting. Come and join the election thing and lets have fun rated in the argument i make in my book is the big part of the trump phenomenon is people seeking. Meaning and dignity are part of it but the framework that i uses belonging to something or did in my argument is that in the really suffering parts of america, what is lacking. I looked in a lot of these places most of the Swimming Pool that had closed down the church and close down the factory that is goes down and yes you can still get the disability the unemployment whatever that is up to, it doesnt even come close to adding up to belonging to this workplace the labor union that shut down. And that alienation is what it needs to. Largely his people looking for other things that you want to sometimes its isis, sometimes its white nationalism. Sometimes just wearing a red hat. These are people who dont belong to anything or seeking to blog something the bitter irony i think for a lot of the political left and a handful of liberal writers who have written this, they said i thought that we would all get along better because he wouldnt have these religious divisions. If you fewer people belong to a church. And more people are going to belong to things that in one way or another will cause more strife or not lead them to happiness and the good life. That is my argument. I dont know what you think. Timothy i was a similar but i think the both of our books talk about this. In the left explicitly, the lust of the job has cascaded everything. And so in that sense, i would guess very much of the left. The loss of all of these other forms of meaning, the original sense was the loss of the factory. Not provided people with stability divine all of the things that you said that once were there to join, then started dissipating. And im less comfortable talking about cultural issues only because it is not my strong point. It is not where i come from. But i think the right does have the people on the right do of the that im certainly uncomfortable i say this is somebody is not valid agnostic the loss of faith has been huge. Absolutely huge. So think you would to Salt Lake City to book. In one it was even contrary to my thesis was utah. Does not have the levels of despair that the other places have. Very central role, provides both in the classic both regulates and provides people a sense of place. So i say this is a leftist diagnostic in the solution to whatever we have going on in my mind is the fall of the church, has been a big loss that in many cases felt capitalism in check. In this tugofwar, we dont go too far as a catalyst, your neighbor because you get those religious rules there pretty capitalism without religion is an absolute disaster. Timothy and jerry was the man because he put it as he did know his abcs and he never felt he had meeting and as he put it, was not the way that i as a catholic whatever credibility said that i got saved and it changed me. I never felt worthy before i was saved. Have students and now i understand i am worthy of the lord. So thats me, is the most noncredentialed form of meaning. Like you literally just become worthy. In a modern culture and economy does not grant that. If you cannot read, if you have the wrong views or whatever, it is hard to find meaning. I want to move on and i will come back to make it uncomfortable for the right and a little bit but i want to pick on the left for a little bit. You have the same experience. I think surprisingly being a bit ignored in her book by the left and specifically, use a phrase that people have been left behind. And dignity. There is an interview on fox. Com where there was a professor arguing something similar to what i would argue in the interview your interjected and says, these people have not been left behind. They have chosen not to keep up. Which wouldve been a shocking thing for someone in the left to say before donald trump existed. So think something about the White Working Class, voting for donald trump especially the pub republican primary has fitted the situation were a lot of people who otherwise it would look at people who are suffering, especially if they lost their jobs due to freetrade and absinthe even now people are saying that you are responsible for your own suffering. Which by the way, is a lot of what you would hear from the right about urban bliss. Chris so the way i frame it, i believe i am from the left and one very important way which is that this group of people suffering the idea of it, social ills, i will never blame, i will always believe the political structure in which they operate in. I will call then we could dump. I will call them racist. I think you have to look at the political structure that people operate in. Both an individual levels and a group level. Left has always rightfully done that about urban neighborhoods. When the right says, and the welfare queens and all those things. Laziness, just get a job and addicted to having kids. Violence, crimes, and the left is always succumbing to look at the situation. They find themselves in it. They find themselves in neighborhoods with immense obstacles because of susan. Lets stop calling people names. Timothy so i would think that the left would do the same to the working class white neighborhoods. In some cases they do but in many cases they dont. Where when they look at the problems for the choices made in White Working Class neighborhoods, there is a kind of, well just like these people have privilege. They cant possibly and part of what my book dead, while i started this in 2011 before the trumps of avid and only became political because it taken place because i was in these towns during the election. I remember being an one in West Virginia and true part. A lot of things were going wrong. The family the download wrong in their lives. I remember the context i basically said a lot of people would say the working class guy, you have a lot of privilege. Like they thought they were but i was messing with them. And compared to workingclass kids evacuated milwaukee, and the trailer park, maybe privilege perhaps but he something told that by the workingclass freebies being told that by the sociology student from cornell on twitter. And just mind boggling. But this is where i will criticize the left. It goes back to his think theres a believe that of the left, that misunderstanding of how much privilege in education provide you and i think that slightly uncomfortable because it makes people in my party feel a little bit like they have more privilege than what to admit. Timothy when you see education, one of the big things that actually means is connection. And it is to say, i in college red homework, i learned greek. Lots of things that i absolutely love. And you met some of my older brothers and who one of them went to a much Better College than i did maybe he learned calculus or Computer Programming or something. But what helped him as he went to yell. He had friends who went to yell. An education is not just remain in college but also learning the code. How interact and how to speak how to not to get things and they arent explicitly cost you but you absorb them through the education and estimate to learn in the classroom and which are able to pass on standardized tests or something pretty is a code of behavior and its connection. That is the nature of our privilege. As accessing that i think that is uncomfortable. Chris where the cool kids. We set