For the undefeated, our platform which focuses on race, sports and culture, we did a digital project in 2017 that was kind of an ode to the first africanamerican president thats the title of the fierce 44. We had this idea why dont we do an omas two and arguably the greatest achievement for africanamericans to become president. And who else should be on that list . We didnt list it was an Interactive Digital projects. It was well received, highly debated and then code in miffli mifflin, hard court publisher said could you turn this into a Childrens Book . Because there are not of African American by auger phase of the genre that is popular, in the childrens biography collections. So they love they had these beautiful illustrations so we edited our digital project and turned it into a book. Host what is the format of this book . Guest well its basically short file of sketches with a couple of illustrations adjust gives kids enough so they can learn about these tremendous africanamerican achievers. And it absorbs some of the inspiration and greatness that black americans have contributed to this country. See when you mentioned you are part of undefeated is that part of espn 32 we launched in may of 2016. It was the idea of a former president at espn, john skipper, and it was the idea that here we have a Digital Product that really could serve a really loyal over indexing black audience on digital. And meanwhile help espn with the bringing our own aesthetic insensibility to espn were race, sports and culture intersect. I think race is very much about culture too. That came about. I was at the Washington Post, for you and i knew each other, and after a lot of debate, i was presented with this opportunity and i decided to go ahead and give it a shot as essentially as start up within espn. See when you were the managing editor of Washington Post. How much debate happened in your family . Guest a lot of debate, particularly my wife. [laughter] but sometimes you just rupture own career. And you want to do Something Different and take a little bit of a leap off of that cliff and try Something Different. I decided to do that. It has been fantastic. Host just to be clear, why 44 biographical sketches . Guest it was a play off of the 44th president. He was exiting the white house, and we said will do 44. It was originally called the undefeated 44. So these were our selections, our staff selections and there is a lot of fierce debate. You can imagine because there are many, many more than 44 great africanamericans. We dont say these are the greatest black achievers ever. We dont try to put that on. Its just 44 that we looked at that fit the sensibility of the first africanamerican president in the sense that here something, they did something pioneering. Something disrupting, they were in some cases noisy geniuses are quite innovators. They did something extraordinary in their own space. It was, believe me, peter it was knock down drag out debate among our staff. We kind of did it democratically where to get on the list, you had to convince the group that you should be on the list and if you were going to add someone, you had to say then who are we going to take off . It was a lot of backandforth and obviously a lot of people were left off. But a lot of great people are on the list. Host what you want Young Readers to know about barack obama besides being the first black president . Guest its interesting i was at the nba allstar weekend in chicago and happen to have be at an event my colleague at espn was hosting and barack obama was there, with chris paul, kevin love in others and it was a discussion about what athletes do and how they use their influence on issues. It was a reminder of how, what someone like obama does, to elevate a discussion. He was interacting with the athletes and you could just watch the athletes in the sense of thinking more deeply about how they could influence and use their own power for good on social issues. It was a fascinating discussion. I do think look its hard to become president. I dont care who you are. We know that were watching it now. It is really difficult long journey. So to be the first africanamerican to do that is a signature achievement that many people thought they would never see in their lifetime. Thats always stands at the top of the mountain. Host the majority of the profiles in the fierce 44 are not athletes. Guest we have six athletes. And even those, their people were left out but i think the athletes that we do have on the list, serena williams, simone biles, who is arguably the greatest gymnast ever. I think she is the greatest gymnast ever. Michael jordan who kind of not only was the first black athlete outside of ojeh, who really kind of set a model for how athletes are doing business. And representing big corporate brands. He had a style and kind of swagger in addition to his highflying ability. There are a lot of reasons why various people got picked and we could say theres a lot of great athletes, hank aaron is not on the list for example, and he easily been on that list. I think the athletes we do have are amazing. See one who is not in the book that you personally wanted in the book . Guest while i dont know i dont think host or did all of your choices get picked . Guest no they didnt. Some people i argued for, i dont think there is much argument, but i think some people were obvious. All he was an obvious one, Thurgood Marshall was one of my favorites because i think sometimes marshalls contribution to breaking the back of jim crow through the legal system and traveling dark roads, and really going into allwhite courtrooms and really doing it under death threats. It was really important to have the legal dimension while everybody else is out in the streets protesting and doing sit ins. He was one of my favorites to be on that list. I think i argued for Jesse Jackson as a forerunner to barack obama. He kind of first set the idea that it was possible. A lot of people did not want to run for president , and was also as it was a great orator and someone who inspired many generations to have hope and faith. There is a lot of debate. People were getting knocked down and added on. It was very spiritual. Host you are the coauthor of a book on Justice Clarence thomas. Was he consider for this the fierce 44 . Guest yes he was raised to, as a Supreme Court justice who certainly someone who is raised. There were a lot of people who were raised that i think we were mindful also of not trying to make these choices based on ideology or based on factors that hey this person was isolated from the race, we try to look at achievement, and what was done. Obviously, with 44 you are missing a lot of people. Tiger woods is not on here. I think Louis Armstrong is another that was debated. Guest but Duke Ellington is in there. Yes hes in there the process was we thought about we dont want to have it overly weighted with civil rights, or activist figures. You could fill the entire book there. We were sensitive to whats missing. I probably think we added people, Richard Allen is in there. In part because certainly religion is such important. He is the founder of the ame church. It was so important to black communities and still is. Churches have played such a role we probably could have had more religious figures. At some point, i think i may have raise that we dont have enough religious figures. Military, Reginald Davis is a decorated general, he is in there. Guest first africanamerican general. Guest thats right, that is a knob to our contributions to the military and fighting and defending this country. Host theres a connection between jesse owens and benjamin know davis who both served or operated during that same time and then came back to the u. S. To the same old world. Guest yes, the same old world and jesse owens and many of those other olympians from the 1936 olympics came back and were not treated and welcome and away we are accustomed to olympic champions being welcomed. Host and in fact jesse owens came home to the oppression of jim crow working at basically menial jobs like racing horses and pumping gas. Guest this guy was a sideshow. That was a really tragic outcome for somebody who had essentially was regarded as defeating hitler. And really embarrassing hitler and the games in germany. See what i wanted to ask who was Robert Abbott . Guest he was a great newspaper editor. Chicago defender was the most important publication in america for black americans at one time. It was really during a period when chicago, there is a migration, chicago and really nationally, really being kind of a beacon for truth and leading the way. So Robert Abbott definitely deserved and of course hes a journalist and we had have journalism represented. Host what was the importance of the defender . Guest i think the defender, i think black newspapers of the time were really africanamericans were working at the white papers. This is where we got our news. Like the amsterdam news, of course the afroamerican, other papers around the country were black papers. They were out covering the civil rights movement. They were covering injustice and many of those reporters that were going down in the deep south, were just like Thurgood Marshall. They had to figure out how to stay in places and file their stories. They were in dangerous places so they were also under threat and they had to do their work under threats. I think they were really important, the black newspaper of chicago, the defender standing above all as leaders in the civil rights movement. Host kevin merritt, what was the toughest part of transitioning from the Washington Post politics into sports and politics for you . Guest i was a sports fan. I followed sports closely, i was managing editor i oversaw the news, features and covers that includes a Sports Department of written a lot about sports. Kind of as a feature writer i felt comfortable in the sports world and did not feel too out of place there. I think the biggest difficulty of the transition was short a place like the Washington Post that is so news centered. Then going to a startup that was essentially did not have a culture, we had to build everything from the ground floor. When youre starting something new, you are encountering all kinds of challenges that the go along with that. It was a great transition. Host why is it called the undefeated . Guest it is based off of quotes, we may encounter many defeats but we will not be defeated. That sometimes, you need to suffer defeat to know what you can become. It was really both from a sports standpoint and from a race standpoint. Really kind of came together as an ideal. Sports, our kids lose, we hugged them. Theyre going to lose again and would let them know its not the end of the world. There will be another opportunity. I think the resilience of what black americans have done in this country, their resilience and their triumph over obstacles was reflected in that quote. The undefeated felt like it was good. Host as you mentioned there are six athletes featured in the fierce 44s. Our athletes inherently role models . Guest i think whether they want to be or not, they are for many people. Its because they play in public, they are out doing their work and public and they interact with fans and fans watch them. People play money to come see the game. Kids look up to them, many kids grow up playing sports and they wish they could become serena williams. Look at coco, she is lighting up tennis and she was inspired by serena williams. Naomi was inspired by serena williams. You see that kind of pipeline going from Althea Gibson to serena williams. I think athletes, you look up to them and you want to become them, and so they are models. Host one about colin capper next . Was he considered for this book . There was discussion about him. There is eight points in time he has become a symbol for activism for black athletes down certainly sacrificed his career in order to make a point about police brutality, oppression and racial injustice. I think someone who is kind of a moderate day allleague, to sacrifice, something illicit seem that way by many people. He was definitely considered. Kevin merida there are two people in this book i have never heard of and i am ashamed to say, one is jean michel basket mi saying his name correctly . Guest he was really like and often guard painter. He really was, and right now some of his paintings are, i think is paintings were up there at the highest resale value now. He died young, he was somebody that like some young geniuses they died too young, you never know if they could have become. But even him, we kind of put him in as a disruptor because there were a lot of other artists and i know a couple people on our staff im going to call Jesse Washington out. He thought there should have been other notable painters that were more deserving of being the artist. I think in every genre you have, there is success there so much success. You are making choices for lots of different reasons. I like the fact that we have some zags were people would not expect a person to be on the list. Host , so disruptors was important to be included . Guest yes i think disruption is good, courage, bravery, taking the chance of going into places where others, fields where others have not gone. I think all of those should be considered. Certainly achievement is and success was important. There were a lot of factors. We didnt have any scoresheet, it was just really a feel and debates. We just made some selections. Host the other one i had not heard of, doctor charles drew. Guest yes, he is a pioneer in medicine. I know that in nashville, he represents the end portions of a medical discovery and the sciences and our contributions there. I think the way we thought about that was charles drew was somebody that we could have had a lot of other people, George Washington carver, there could be many people who were in the realm of scientific invention and discovery. But he was a representation. Host who do you hope resist . Guest i hope kids i hope parents read it with their children. I think everybody kids of all races, ethnicities. I think these are black americans who shook up the world. But it is our history its american history. I hope that kids everywhere learn something. Host beautiful illustrations in your who did those . Guest robert ball he is an artist we cant traction with in the illustrations were fantastic. So good. Host kevin merida is the editorinchief of the undefeated. He is also one of the authors on this book, the fierce 44 black americans who shook up the world. Guest thanks peter.