Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jennifer Hirsch Sexual Citizens 20240

Transcripts For CSPAN2 Jennifer Hirsch Sexual Citizens 20240713

Thank you so much, its great to be here, thank you for coming out. In every room there are always survivors so if you start to feel distressed by what im sharing obviously its okayto get up and take a break. Theres a National Sexual assault hotline is one 806 56 hope. So im going to start withthe story. In boston was a sweet student. Hot summer nights, sex with his girlfriend and its pretty much the sexiest story in the book. Thats not thestory on going to tell, sorry. But he was a good guy. He was the kind of guy who had developed a series of nicknames for the kinds of orgasms his girlfriend had because he wascommitted to making sure sex was something that felt good for her to. But austin also sexually assaulted someone. He told us a story about the night freshman year he was in a room with his roommates girlfriends roommate. So the roommate has a girlfriend. Two people get shoveled into the same bedroom together. The girl was pretty drunk and she said to him she wasnt interested in doing anything but he was anxious and he felt he was behind his peers. Everyone had more sexual experience than he did he got in her bed and started to touch her body. And then he thought to himself, this isnt the thing so hestopped. When austin told us that story he became distraught. Because it was in the telling of that story he realized what he had done was Sexual Assault and it was hard for him to put together what he had done which he knew was wrong with the fact that he thought he was a pretty good person and he thought of people who sexually assault people as bad people i think thats one of the questions that were speaking to in the book, the fact that people can do things that are very harmful to other people without necessarily being bad people. Hold like bad person good person thing has surrounded the conversation about campus actual assault and we bring a very different object to the problem. Our book is not about fear, its not about punishment. Its about prevention so so much of the conversation about campus Sexual Assault has focused either on eradjudication, sort of be where going to punish our way out of this idea or on the idea that the perpetrators are sociopaths and if only we could identify those few of you have men we could at least catch them and campuses would be safer places but if you think about driving, think about all the effort that goes into teaching young people how to drive so that they can do what a pretty dangerous thing which is to move a two tonvehicle around the World Without hurting other people. Theres drivers ed and road design and car engineering, many systems in place at multiple levels so that they can do that safely and what we call for in the book is a parallel system for sex. To teach young people how to have sex without hurting other people so i want to back up and tellyou about the project. Sexual citizens pulls back the curtain on what it feels like to be a College Student today so its about Sexual Assault but its not just about Sexual Assault, its about the life of College Students. Its based on the immersion in campus life so we did indepth interviews with hundred 51 students, all of them at least once but some of them up to three times because they had experienced so many assault it couldnt fit into one or even two interviews. We had a team of researchers because shamus and i are old, very old but were too old to hang around the students and was that would be creepy for them to see their professors at parties so we hired a team of younger researchers who were staff and they did what we call economic fees. They socialize with students as they went about their daily lives on the bus after the athletic fields and in the dining hall and in the dorms and at parties in religious aces so wherever students went, there also went our research team, never hiding themselves so they were spying, they were doing research so that they identified themselves and we as researchers andwent to a lot of parties. So we interviewed the students, they did observation and we talked with student groups to find out how they talk about sex and socializing when there with each other. This was all in the context of a much larger project the Sexual Health initiative to foster transformation which i codirected with a friend and colleague Claude Mellon which one funded by Columbia University so it was the giant ship project which had two surveys , the noneuropean the whole Community Engagement portion and the book is based mostly on the ethnographic research, that research telling time with and talking with students as they go about their daily lives. Let me tell you another story. When was a call sort of conventionally very attractive white woman and when she came to new york she settled right into sort of new York City Club life which she enjoyed so she told us she came into the interview with a list of stories she wanted to tell us, these are good stories and they didnt feel necessarily like good stories when weheard them. She would meet men, these sort of being less actors and not very famous athletes and she was very clear she said on her own sexual boundaries so she would go back to hotel rooms with them and she didnt want to have sex she would describe it, he would just give them a blow job to get out of there and for her that was sort of a self protective escape but it made us think what is the feeling of indebtedness that made her feel like she owed them a blow job . When shared with us to stories of being sexually assaulted. The first was freshman year when her roommates were encouraging her to take a guy on campus, just try that and she wasnt super psyched about it but there was a freshman abor a senior who was into her and she said at least hes a senior so if i have to go out with a college guy at least thats impressive and she had in her mind a sort of mental of how it would go. She said this is going to be like this slow production so on the first date we will make out, maybe we will go to second base. On the second ill let him finger me, were not going to have sex until the third day and she imagined in her mind but that wasnt what he was thinking so he was pretty emphatic when they were back in her room that he wanted to have sex and she managed to convince him that they were not going to have sex but he could sleep over and that would be nice to cuddle together and she woke up in the night and he was pumping her leg. And she was like, thats gross, what are you doing . So he stopped and then the next day she was discussing it with her mom and her mom is like hes sexually assaulted you and she rejected label and said it was not Sexual Assault and roommate said that was Sexual Assault so when is mulling the story over and she tells us the next time she was sexually assaulted which was at the end of one of her early years in school after people were pretty like not entirely moved out but she was one of the last people in the dorms and some guy who she described as scummy la club model promoter guy said he had some good pot and they were going to go to Morningside Park and get stoned together and that seemed like a fun thing to you on a hot summer day so they go to the park and spoke a little and then go back to the dorm and he wants to make out and shes not that into him. Shes like im good. And he was not good. So he tried to force the issue and they were back in her room and he was grabbing at her and it was kind of scary and she was trying to convince him he had to leave and he was like im going to tell the guard that we smoked pot and she was like imgoing to tell the guard youre trying to rape me. So she definitely had the trump card there. She managed to get him away but she was really shaken by the experience and so she called her mom to talkabout it. In talking with her mom she said she realized maybe it wasnt so bad what happenedto her. She said really nothing happened, he just said some bad things to me but shes like nothing happened, im okay so its inthe second thexperience that she started to realize she didnt know anyone anything. He was emphatic, he said i came all the way uptown and im not even going to have an orgasm . She said yes, you came all the way uptown and youre not going to have an orgasm so that was the moment she moved from thinking about herself as someone who owed someone a blowjob to having a clear sense of her right to not have sex and not just a core idea in the book, if the idea of sexual citizenship. People have the right to have the kind of Sexual Experiences they have andalso do not have the kind of Sexual Experiences they dont want to have to and other people have the same rights. In general we found heterosexual men and been socialized to their own right to pleasure and not so attentive to other peoples right to sexual selfdetermination and that women, heterosexual women in particular had been socialized to care about what they owed other people and to be less certain of their own right to sexual selfdetermination including their right to say no. So the point is not to say it was gwen that she should have had a better idea of her own sexual citizenship but rather the point is to think about what kind of world are we building where a dutiful, confident, otherwise very effective in the world young woman ofeels so indebted to other people for pleasure and what kind of world are we building where someone homes someone elses leg in the middle of thenight after they said theyre not interested in having sex. Who raised, not what is wrong with that person who raised that person to notknow better . Instead of thinking about campus Sexual Assault as a problem that is the fault of campuses we widen the lens out to say that its all about responsibility so that includes families and communities and schools, thinking back to the driving metaphor, making sure people drive safely is not only the responsibility of one person. When parents talk with their kids about driving, they dont sit them down and explain how spark plugs work. Thats not how you teach someone to drive. And you also dont teach someone to drive by just teaching them about stop signs and red lights is sort of what the focus on consent does so instead driving is a complex Human Behavior and it involves being able to be attentive to a lot of different kinds of inputs at in once and i dont want to shock you but thats pretty similar to sex so we need to do that same kind of training so people can be prepared to accomplish a pretty complex interpersonal interaction without harming other people. One thing thats useful to think about is the role of gwens mom in all of this and how much support she got from her mom. How important her mom was in being the person she could turn to when she needed to figure out what she was struggling with. She would not ever have been able to speak with her mom if she felt like her mom was going to judge her for having sex and it also, we didnt have a lot of stories about dad doing this in the book so another takehome is the need for dads to step up and do more of the emotional labor around sex specifically but child rearing in general. So one more story before i wrap up and we chat. And this is sort of the classic story that you might think of when you think about campus Sexual Assault. Lucy was a freshman, she had gone to boarding school, a very protective conservative boarding School Environment and she had not had much chance to socialize, plus like a lot of columbia students he was busy doing what you need to do to get into a highly Selective School so she didnt socialize much in general so she was excited for college. She wanted to lose her virginity and party the popular. She and one of her roommates went to a bar freshman meet where they met two seniors and they were so excited to be getting attention from the seniors and so seniors bob hendrix read the bouncer and let the freshmen in with their fake ids because thats what bars do they let pretty girls in when i have not very goodfake ids. So the guys bought them drinks and lucy was pretty drunk and she was pretty great with hanging out with scott. She said he want to come back to my fraternityand she said sure so they sell about amsterdam avenue in the warm summer night. Scott was a College Student, he had lost his key so they were locked out and they sat outside waiting to be let in eventually the other girl catches up with lucy so she had done the bystander training. He was trying to get and i on her friend was clearly nothing was going to happen with the guy. Scott and lucy go into the fraternity with the friend nancy. Scott asked the girls if they want to drink. They say yes and in the fraternity, the alcohol is kept up on the second floor because the fraternities are allowed to have alcohol so the way they responded by keeping it upstairs. They went upstairs. And he makes some drinks. Hlizzies friend passed out immediately and didnt touch or drink and scott said to lucy the you want to see my room andthen been making out off and on over the night and she didwant to see his room, she was enjoying being with him and was basking in the attention n. They went upstairs to his room. He started to takeoff her pants and she said number and he said , its okay. But it wasnt okay because he return and he didnt listen to her. So that is sort of the classic story that you think of when you think about a Sexual Assault or oncampus and if you only think about that in terms of not being a man and melissa being a woman you capture part of it because he was bigger than she was. But he was also a senior and he was also in a space that he controlled not just in a building that he lived and surrounded by his friend on the third floor in a place where she had never been at an institution where he had been for three years and knew all the rules and new what College Students dont do and that she was new and unfamiliar with a lot of things ewso one of the things we do in sexual citizens as we complicate the ways you might think about power and we show how there are lots of different ways that you need to think about power in order what we could change toprevent campus Sexual Assault. We talk a lot about race in the book and the ways in which the racial landscape of campus produces Sexual Assault. Every single black woman we spoke with in interviews, every single one had experienced with unwanted sexual touching. And thats not just a Sexual Assault problem, thats a racial justiceproblem. We talked with and we describe in the book the query results that students experience, women assaulting men which is a part of the story that is rarely told and we tell the stories from the perspectives ofassaulters. Who words you rarely hear except in a courtroom where there interested confessing on their innocence. Theres some assaulters who do not show up to be participate in our study so there are people who social category are intentionally harming their fear did not come to be interviewed for obvious reasons but there were threekinds of assaulters who stories we tell in the book there are the assaulters , one of them starts his story, put on a tie so i knew we were going to have sex. And then he proceeds to tell stories of being invited to a Sorority Formal by a girl who he didnt particularly like he didnt dislike her, he just wasnt that into her but it was a high perceived sorority and he was excited to be invited to a formal at one of the two really good sororities because there is a clear campus order. He had an Early Practice the next day so he didnt drink, she drank a lot read he was so drunk at the end of the night in the pouring rain that he brought her back to his room because he couldnt figure out how else he could get to bed in time to get up early for his practice and then he described to us having sex with her as she went in and out of consciousness, she was very drunk because for him, its possible he really was a terrible person and he was putting on a story and recounting us this so i think if you knew it was a bad thing he wouldnt have told us so he told us a story about solving her and what he seems to think he was doing was just coming through on an obligation that she had invited him to the formal, informal frequently involve sex through , unless you explicitly go to a formal with someone as friends is understood to be consent sex. In a way this is problematic but part of what we do in the book as we lay out how students actually have sex rather than how we wish they had sex so he was, this is one of assaulters, the oblivious assaulter, we describe this as an act of entitlement. O there are students who like austin who in the course of telling the story come to label what they did ask assault and then there are some students who know that what they did was an assault and were very troubled by and have never figured out anyone to talk with them about it so utthey came in to tell us the story in the hopes other people knowing about it would perhaps do some good. So those are some of the storiesof assaulters that we share by way of conclusion , really remembering that the book is about prevention , one key takehome is that schools, faith communities and news organizations need to do more than just the places where children are safe from being assaulted they need to step up as stakeholders we need to ask ndthem to step up as stakeholders and thinking about the roles they can play in sexualassault prevention. Its very important to do this for college. We found in the survey at a quarter of the women who participated in the survey had been assaulted before they startedcollege. Not great but experienced some form of unwanted nonconsensual sexual contact so that a lot. And thats a risk factor for being assaulted in college so the prevention war needs to start before hand. We also found in that same survey that women whod gotten Sex Education that included training and had sex they didnt want to have which is not absent only Sex Education, its just good

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