Transcripts For CSPAN2 Kate Aronoff We Own The Future 202407

Good evening everyone. Tonight at the seaport we are really happy you came out and tonight we are celebrating the release of re own the future the democratic socialism americanstyle. And we are excited to have with us kate aronoff to discuss how capitalism and neoliberalism hadap filled the working class. With the current the surgeons in the United States as exemplified by the growing membership of democratic the democratic socialists of america and the popularity of politicians like Bernie Sanders to explore how this energy might be channeled to achieve a future that is more democratic and environmentally sustainable. Let me introduce our guest tonight journalist kate aronoff writing has appeared in the guardian. And the New York Times. And she is a co editor of wii on the future democratic socialism. Together with peter dreier. And she lives in brooklyn. The author of the New York Times bestseller invisible man that got the whole world watching. And a fellow at the nation institute. He has written for the New York Times t the atlantic complex. The new republic and the ewguardian. And he has been a featured commentator. He also lives in brooklyn and so now let me handle this and hand over the mic to our guest and i wanted to just say after the discussion there will be some words by Michael Bennett who is here from the dsa and later on there will be a q and a and after that there will be a book signing and when the q a happens i will come back up here and i will hand the mic to whoever has the question so that cspan who is filming tonight will be able to record your question. Thank you so much. Good evening. Capitalism. I take it youre not a fan for sure now. Tell me why. Is a good big question that people had written many books about. What we argue in the book in which i happen to think is that capitalism has uniquely failed us on many fronts. It is builtin to a lot of western thoughts. What capitalism does it just extracts. It gives very little back. For centuries now labor it has extracted. In order to fuel the massive profit making. There is a lot of theories about what comes after capitalism. Whatever adverb you want to use. Ourselves as coauthors we come to different conclusions about that personally we are contributors and we come to different ideas about that but what we all agree on in the Common Ground is that we have to replace capitalism as the societies operating system. It means to prioritize something other than the accumulation of profits as the driving goal of society. Always constant push back for that. In terms of how much capital can do. And what we think its time for history to put that into the land more firmly. In order to build a society which is basically sustainable. Et this one clearly isnt if we are to believe any saint science climate. It spends time thinking about the different ways we can do that. Initially we were coming up with ideas we wrote out a list of 50 Different Things. And he didnt make it in there. Rather than thinking about tot does this look like have sports under democratic socialism. We ask people to think about it through the lens of their expertise. Focus on this issue and thats it. What is it look like to build a society through this lens. I was happy to see the overlap between that. Because capitalism is such a holistic system and sort of smartly has gotten rid of the idea of political economy. There are things that are intimately bound up from one another. With those connections are. What i hope comes out of this from the collection of these essays is that its really hard to move on any of these fronts without moving on all of them effectively. And having a real vision is what socialism has been good at. That is what we try to communicate in this. A couple of things that are in there that im gonna to pick up on later. I want to ask you are honing in on an idea of democratic socialism at the very least in the past decade or a little over a decade there has been a resurgence ever critique that is grounded in the democratic socialist tradition but im curious why socialism in particular as a mode of anti capitalists yes, i would hone in on two things. It was a long history in the United States of socialism. It was inspired by robert ellen. Virtually every socialism has those. Reaching from w the boys. It has been the free lime of American History. Organizers in the 50s and 60s were not always waving the official flag. So i think we see that coming up at this moment when people who are our age dont have the same kind of hangups that are baked into people that lived through this time where it was illegal or you could be deported for being a communist or a socialist. I think that have the profound effect. Just tiny influence. On the left. So now that we are past that moment thankfully and not just millenials but comfortable with that term to the effect that we have Bernie Sanders who has been the democratic socialist for a long time. D in this election. In the polls for this election. It is a thing that keeps coming up. And since 2008 in which that time we are living in. The post 2008 movement. From occupy wall street in 2011 and black lives in 2013 and onward. So we dont have the same thing which is a socialist part one socialist party of austerity. So it is a different residence to be a little more novel or fun i think that those that implement tuition hikes or public service. C dont have that either living with the should the socialist party. And trying to figure out what that looks like. Never say never. [laughter] you also mentioned that was said in the introductionon i tht you deliberately dont off on offer a definition of socialism or ask the contributors to do so either. Do you want to say the reasoning for that quick. Yes i think part of this comes for me on the socialist resurgence of the us or even the labour party in the uk which very much comes out of the very different version of socialis socialism, but i have to be a little dishonest with that authoritative definition but it is a movement at this point. So not to have five little groups competing with each other and that they managed to Work Together that there is a commitment to have that traditional form but it does mean a lot of Different Things to a lot of people. But in part because how do they breathe that through in land in different places . And then to identify social democrats are libertarian socialists there is a very wide range of what Socialism Means in america today. There is a wide range of topics and you hit the notes that i think are expected like workers rights or corporate greed or democracy or things that immediately are attributed with socialist organizing tradition but also it is touching on ideas of what art looks like. So essentially the things that we do with one another and what brings us joy to imagine those under socialist organizing principle. What is important what that life looks like . And doing activism, i certainly fall into that that there is a tendency to set aside to think about the state or whatever it is that is a lot of critiques are saying the way what we dont want things to be but some of those inspired moments in history that there is a new way to organize the does it just exists in the workplace with relationship to corporations and we have all these other things thats taken over by the profit motive how capitalism this thing that should be fun but it isnt anymore unfortunately for most people even if they play sports in a semi professional capacity but i can appreciate it. But we have to think about what is it to have a good life . And then really think through that in a holistic way. There other things to fill in their. In particular the things touched on in the book is to reimagine things for us to flesh that out and what that looks like as the undertaking but there is another part talking about a total restructuring as a society ideally towards different modes of interacting with one another and economics and so forth and so on and what im trying to get at is you have a politics now that promises people nothing will change. That is the idea of vote for me because it will be the way that you understand. So with this collection there is a whole different vision so then we have to think about what it means to be lost. So i think about this a lot because as long as we talk about in the us but there is this notional idea that things will be better in some ways in p future but then you have to give up your cars and there is a quality to it that if you are chaste enough then you will manifest for the future but i think the idea we cant have that life that is the idea that things will never get better because they cant get better there is no alternative can be effective thats a powerful narrative that your conditions can change their is nothing in the world that could make society be organized because now we know humans have organized themselves and they do it very different ways and so does history because capitalism is a blip in the history of humanity and its helpful to put it in those terms in 30 years, it is very productive dont let anyone tell you capitalism hasnt done things because it has otherwise well all be dead by 2050. So i think i may have wandered off from the original point to put that there is an alternative and there are many alternatives and i think in addition to having a vision the rules that limit to say even the liberal and progressive thought certain people have made out very well so then to occupy wall street it is a small substratum of society for those who things are working out. And organizing collectively as a way to change that. Hello even though i am a member of dsa im here tonight as the chair of the democratic socialism of America Organization the democratic socialist education. We are happy to be here represented tonight to support this project officially even though i dont speak for them i am having a meeting with the National Director of the dsa so greetings of solidarity so this is a series of educational events around the book because the book we owned the future as part of the democratic socialist process so its great we can bring so many people through thinking and writing. The bring the on the author brings people and those who are promoting the book are part of the collective and most of portly the editors and the authors who were here tonight. It takes a collective to make things happen in one of the most important things i think this book can dof is make this clear it is an intersectional movement of people of a variety of backgrounds and i would like to say it is importanten in this moment to recognize the other side may have more Financial Resources but we do have people power for that multi tendencies socialist movement at the heart of the Republican Party and the neoliberalism in the same frame. So we can get there for the future thank you again to everyone involved in the event and project so now lets open up for q a and please remember i will be happy to him this over. I want to ask about the role of race so what im most interested in is between the two distinct equally inspiring things those that understand themselves as a class versus like a black radical project. Yes. So we argue in the book that in the American Democratic socialist has to work different. For very specific reasons. Number one is the foundation of genocide over land so there is the indigenous slaughter and then even referencing slavery that is foundational to all american capitalism and not only that but what we have seen over time is that there is a strategy that is leveraged again and again over progressive progress there are those that have overcome that but any sort of battle or any universall rights come up against this persistent racism in society so there is a great example of this of a tradeoff with the democrats to win some levels of support and to be exclusionary so even with these great things we can point to but that is one of many throughout American History because they dont really grapple with that legacy so looking at this head on with the coauthors whoo argue for reconstruction hamilton argues for the threelegged stool and racial and Economic Justice and reparations and really to look at nott only to reckon with history but to make people whole in the way thats never been done. So the although we can take examples of democratic socialism from existing social democracies we are not any of those countries. We are 5 Million People sitting on the oil well but this is a uniquely american product and to do that we need to be grappling with that and racism is just use throughoutou our history and for any revolutionary that we might hope for but also then with the Climate Crisis we have had to grapple with that and it has been terrible for the planet but this is how the project us to look very different so it has been tough to build a Racial Movement so Bernie Sanders is trying to do this with his campaign for president but those work to make it happen and then trying to figure out what this looks like and what we have to do. Actually im interested in your thoughts anybody who has been involved with the left you will see different factions on the left. [laughter] if you even get the trotsky gcial anarchist in the room together it can get pretty ugly. So my question is, how does this democratic socialist future, how do we harness all this leftist energy for all of these factions to come together and mobilized . Parties the democratic socialism . And then to operate. So the short answer is organizing. And those organizations i have been involved in that things are moving very slowly and for those sites to bubble up and foster in the long those very silly lines so its interesting to think about this some people to go out and knock on doors and medicare for all to disabuse you when you are talking to 12 friends versus every day people. And personally i found that helpful through my own psyche but yes the best way to make phone calls and engage in the work of politics and with anger and the internal position of politics. I want to ask about the idea of municipal socialism so one is the idea of the direct democracy to be very micro local and then are as we have seen in other places from that micro level of words. And with that democratic socialism but it does have its roots in milwaukee over 60 years with this wave of german immigrants so that started off as a pejorative that we are add a functional city city governments and state governments make a lot of sense like mounting a campaign for senate is a difficult task and again it is very difficult so contesting for the smaller areas of power there is that trajectory maybe if you just dont run for something small that run for something bigger. But in that difficulty there is backlash he talks about gary indiana which has a mayor at the start of the industrialization and through the major industry of steel to talk about how that was politically motivated, who can tell that goes through the example that the state level to the power of new york city in the seventies what is closing out of social democracy and the financial fiscal crisis and that the city really tells the story but there is no level of politics immune from that backlash is so to grapple at the institutional level in some places where theres just a very limited range of things that they could do but there is power at the National Level so these two things can Work Together that we will be symbiotic but there is ahi delicate balance of what you can do it in a specific level for government. So one of the reasons you ask people to find is that it evolves and what they are building and also what people had to say. There are small the democratic socialist, i am certainly. So this is the future it is not a oneparty state it is not from lack of democracy and i think that has to be core because in big moments of and then the top down action but just keeps coming back that this is tension because on the one hand there are these big things that have to happen very quickly to triple the amount of activity and buildout mass transit and Public Housing so imagine doing that in a directly democratic way is very difficult and then to come together to decide the color of the seat on the train and that will never happen so there is a balance between directec democracy in the General Assembly and occupy wall street but what does democracy mean cracks so how do you guarantee those rights to people with some sort of say how they affect their lives there is an interesting history book and those that were not the product of direct democracy or even democratic votes with the Supreme Court decision that probably would have been unpopular after the film what is democracy , everybody should watch the film i will not butcher it but there are a lot of people who might not want what is best for the majority of people in the country so what you do with that 51 percent of the country . What do you do is just a constant struggle to be worked out hunger games style. Am curious to hear in the continued ascent of what democratic socialism looks of the traditional twoparty system that we have here. I think we will see a lot in the next couple months including monday i am talking about Bernie Sanders weve already seen people lose their minds a little bit with the process of a democratic socialist winning the first two primary state which is a very real possibility at thisch point but it is this crazy unprecedented moment the Democratic Party has not been socialist party it has been brutally shut down for realignment throughout history but i dont know. I would be a fool to say that i knowow what happens that feels like uncharted territory but personally im very excited but even if Elizabeth Warren was when they are both very left of the where the institutional structure has been but there is a tendency to treat the United States<\/a> as exemplified by the growing membership of democratic the democratic socialists of america and the popularity of politicians like Bernie Sanders<\/a> to explore how this energy might be channeled to achieve a future that is more democratic and environmentally sustainable. Let me introduce our guest tonight journalist kate aronoff writing has appeared in the guardian. And the New York Times<\/a>. And she is a co editor of wii on the future democratic socialism. Together with peter dreier. And she lives in brooklyn. The author of the New York Times<\/a> bestseller invisible man that got the whole world watching. And a fellow at the nation institute. He has written for the New York Times<\/a> t the atlantic complex. The new republic and the ewguardian. And he has been a featured commentator. He also lives in brooklyn and so now let me handle this and hand over the mic to our guest and i wanted to just say after the discussion there will be some words by Michael Bennett<\/a> who is here from the dsa and later on there will be a q and a and after that there will be a book signing and when the q a happens i will come back up here and i will hand the mic to whoever has the question so that cspan who is filming tonight will be able to record your question. Thank you so much. Good evening. Capitalism. I take it youre not a fan for sure now. Tell me why. Is a good big question that people had written many books about. What we argue in the book in which i happen to think is that capitalism has uniquely failed us on many fronts. It is builtin to a lot of western thoughts. What capitalism does it just extracts. It gives very little back. For centuries now labor it has extracted. In order to fuel the massive profit making. There is a lot of theories about what comes after capitalism. Whatever adverb you want to use. Ourselves as coauthors we come to different conclusions about that personally we are contributors and we come to different ideas about that but what we all agree on in the Common Ground<\/a> is that we have to replace capitalism as the societies operating system. It means to prioritize something other than the accumulation of profits as the driving goal of society. Always constant push back for that. In terms of how much capital can do. And what we think its time for history to put that into the land more firmly. In order to build a society which is basically sustainable. Et this one clearly isnt if we are to believe any saint science climate. It spends time thinking about the different ways we can do that. Initially we were coming up with ideas we wrote out a list of 50 Different Things<\/a>. And he didnt make it in there. Rather than thinking about tot does this look like have sports under democratic socialism. We ask people to think about it through the lens of their expertise. Focus on this issue and thats it. What is it look like to build a society through this lens. I was happy to see the overlap between that. Because capitalism is such a holistic system and sort of smartly has gotten rid of the idea of political economy. There are things that are intimately bound up from one another. With those connections are. What i hope comes out of this from the collection of these essays is that its really hard to move on any of these fronts without moving on all of them effectively. And having a real vision is what socialism has been good at. That is what we try to communicate in this. A couple of things that are in there that im gonna to pick up on later. I want to ask you are honing in on an idea of democratic socialism at the very least in the past decade or a little over a decade there has been a resurgence ever critique that is grounded in the democratic socialist tradition but im curious why socialism in particular as a mode of anti capitalists yes, i would hone in on two things. It was a long history in the United States<\/a> of socialism. It was inspired by robert ellen. Virtually every socialism has those. Reaching from w the boys. It has been the free lime of American History<\/a>. Organizers in the 50s and 60s were not always waving the official flag. So i think we see that coming up at this moment when people who are our age dont have the same kind of hangups that are baked into people that lived through this time where it was illegal or you could be deported for being a communist or a socialist. I think that have the profound effect. Just tiny influence. On the left. So now that we are past that moment thankfully and not just millenials but comfortable with that term to the effect that we have Bernie Sanders<\/a> who has been the democratic socialist for a long time. D in this election. In the polls for this election. It is a thing that keeps coming up. And since 2008 in which that time we are living in. The post 2008 movement. From occupy wall street in 2011 and black lives in 2013 and onward. So we dont have the same thing which is a socialist part one socialist party of austerity. So it is a different residence to be a little more novel or fun i think that those that implement tuition hikes or public service. C dont have that either living with the should the socialist party. And trying to figure out what that looks like. Never say never. [laughter] you also mentioned that was said in the introductionon i tht you deliberately dont off on offer a definition of socialism or ask the contributors to do so either. Do you want to say the reasoning for that quick. Yes i think part of this comes for me on the socialist resurgence of the us or even the labour party in the uk which very much comes out of the very different version of socialis socialism, but i have to be a little dishonest with that authoritative definition but it is a movement at this point. So not to have five little groups competing with each other and that they managed to Work Together<\/a> that there is a commitment to have that traditional form but it does mean a lot of Different Things<\/a> to a lot of people. But in part because how do they breathe that through in land in different places . And then to identify social democrats are libertarian socialists there is a very wide range of what Socialism Means<\/a> in america today. There is a wide range of topics and you hit the notes that i think are expected like workers rights or corporate greed or democracy or things that immediately are attributed with socialist organizing tradition but also it is touching on ideas of what art looks like. So essentially the things that we do with one another and what brings us joy to imagine those under socialist organizing principle. What is important what that life looks like . And doing activism, i certainly fall into that that there is a tendency to set aside to think about the state or whatever it is that is a lot of critiques are saying the way what we dont want things to be but some of those inspired moments in history that there is a new way to organize the does it just exists in the workplace with relationship to corporations and we have all these other things thats taken over by the profit motive how capitalism this thing that should be fun but it isnt anymore unfortunately for most people even if they play sports in a semi professional capacity but i can appreciate it. But we have to think about what is it to have a good life . And then really think through that in a holistic way. There other things to fill in their. In particular the things touched on in the book is to reimagine things for us to flesh that out and what that looks like as the undertaking but there is another part talking about a total restructuring as a society ideally towards different modes of interacting with one another and economics and so forth and so on and what im trying to get at is you have a politics now that promises people nothing will change. That is the idea of vote for me because it will be the way that you understand. So with this collection there is a whole different vision so then we have to think about what it means to be lost. So i think about this a lot because as long as we talk about in the us but there is this notional idea that things will be better in some ways in p future but then you have to give up your cars and there is a quality to it that if you are chaste enough then you will manifest for the future but i think the idea we cant have that life that is the idea that things will never get better because they cant get better there is no alternative can be effective thats a powerful narrative that your conditions can change their is nothing in the world that could make society be organized because now we know humans have organized themselves and they do it very different ways and so does history because capitalism is a blip in the history of humanity and its helpful to put it in those terms in 30 years, it is very productive dont let anyone tell you capitalism hasnt done things because it has otherwise well all be dead by 2050. So i think i may have wandered off from the original point to put that there is an alternative and there are many alternatives and i think in addition to having a vision the rules that limit to say even the liberal and progressive thought certain people have made out very well so then to occupy wall street it is a small substratum of society for those who things are working out. And organizing collectively as a way to change that. Hello even though i am a member of dsa im here tonight as the chair of the democratic socialism of America Organization<\/a> the democratic socialist education. We are happy to be here represented tonight to support this project officially even though i dont speak for them i am having a meeting with the National Director<\/a> of the dsa so greetings of solidarity so this is a series of educational events around the book because the book we owned the future as part of the democratic socialist process so its great we can bring so many people through thinking and writing. The bring the on the author brings people and those who are promoting the book are part of the collective and most of portly the editors and the authors who were here tonight. It takes a collective to make things happen in one of the most important things i think this book can dof is make this clear it is an intersectional movement of people of a variety of backgrounds and i would like to say it is importanten in this moment to recognize the other side may have more Financial Resources<\/a> but we do have people power for that multi tendencies socialist movement at the heart of the Republican Party<\/a> and the neoliberalism in the same frame. So we can get there for the future thank you again to everyone involved in the event and project so now lets open up for q a and please remember i will be happy to him this over. I want to ask about the role of race so what im most interested in is between the two distinct equally inspiring things those that understand themselves as a class versus like a black radical project. Yes. So we argue in the book that in the American Democratic<\/a> socialist has to work different. For very specific reasons. Number one is the foundation of genocide over land so there is the indigenous slaughter and then even referencing slavery that is foundational to all american capitalism and not only that but what we have seen over time is that there is a strategy that is leveraged again and again over progressive progress there are those that have overcome that but any sort of battle or any universall rights come up against this persistent racism in society so there is a great example of this of a tradeoff with the democrats to win some levels of support and to be exclusionary so even with these great things we can point to but that is one of many throughout American History<\/a> because they dont really grapple with that legacy so looking at this head on with the coauthors whoo argue for reconstruction hamilton argues for the threelegged stool and racial and Economic Justice<\/a> and reparations and really to look at nott only to reckon with history but to make people whole in the way thats never been done. So the although we can take examples of democratic socialism from existing social democracies we are not any of those countries. We are 5 Million People<\/a> sitting on the oil well but this is a uniquely american product and to do that we need to be grappling with that and racism is just use throughoutou our history and for any revolutionary that we might hope for but also then with the Climate Crisis<\/a> we have had to grapple with that and it has been terrible for the planet but this is how the project us to look very different so it has been tough to build a Racial Movement<\/a> so Bernie Sanders<\/a> is trying to do this with his campaign for president but those work to make it happen and then trying to figure out what this looks like and what we have to do. Actually im interested in your thoughts anybody who has been involved with the left you will see different factions on the left. [laughter] if you even get the trotsky gcial anarchist in the room together it can get pretty ugly. So my question is, how does this democratic socialist future, how do we harness all this leftist energy for all of these factions to come together and mobilized . Parties the democratic socialism . And then to operate. So the short answer is organizing. And those organizations i have been involved in that things are moving very slowly and for those sites to bubble up and foster in the long those very silly lines so its interesting to think about this some people to go out and knock on doors and medicare for all to disabuse you when you are talking to 12 friends versus every day people. And personally i found that helpful through my own psyche but yes the best way to make phone calls and engage in the work of politics and with anger and the internal position of politics. I want to ask about the idea of municipal socialism so one is the idea of the direct democracy to be very micro local and then are as we have seen in other places from that micro level of words. And with that democratic socialism but it does have its roots in milwaukee over 60 years with this wave of german immigrants so that started off as a pejorative that we are add a functional city city governments and state governments make a lot of sense like mounting a campaign for senate is a difficult task and again it is very difficult so contesting for the smaller areas of power there is that trajectory maybe if you just dont run for something small that run for something bigger. But in that difficulty there is backlash he talks about gary indiana which has a mayor at the start of the industrialization and through the major industry of steel to talk about how that was politically motivated, who can tell that goes through the example that the state level to the power of new york city in the seventies what is closing out of social democracy and the financial fiscal crisis and that the city really tells the story but there is no level of politics immune from that backlash is so to grapple at the institutional level in some places where theres just a very limited range of things that they could do but there is power at the National Level<\/a> so these two things can Work Together<\/a> that we will be symbiotic but there is ahi delicate balance of what you can do it in a specific level for government. So one of the reasons you ask people to find is that it evolves and what they are building and also what people had to say. There are small the democratic socialist, i am certainly. So this is the future it is not a oneparty state it is not from lack of democracy and i think that has to be core because in big moments of and then the top down action but just keeps coming back that this is tension because on the one hand there are these big things that have to happen very quickly to triple the amount of activity and buildout mass transit and Public Housing<\/a> so imagine doing that in a directly democratic way is very difficult and then to come together to decide the color of the seat on the train and that will never happen so there is a balance between directec democracy in the General Assembly<\/a> and occupy wall street but what does democracy mean cracks so how do you guarantee those rights to people with some sort of say how they affect their lives there is an interesting history book and those that were not the product of direct democracy or even democratic votes with the Supreme Court<\/a> decision that probably would have been unpopular after the film what is democracy , everybody should watch the film i will not butcher it but there are a lot of people who might not want what is best for the majority of people in the country so what you do with that 51 percent of the country . What do you do is just a constant struggle to be worked out hunger games style. Am curious to hear in the continued ascent of what democratic socialism looks of the traditional twoparty system that we have here. I think we will see a lot in the next couple months including monday i am talking about Bernie Sanders<\/a> weve already seen people lose their minds a little bit with the process of a democratic socialist winning the first two primary state which is a very real possibility at thisch point but it is this crazy unprecedented moment the Democratic Party<\/a> has not been socialist party it has been brutally shut down for realignment throughout history but i dont know. I would be a fool to say that i knowow what happens that feels like uncharted territory but personally im very excited but even if Elizabeth Warren<\/a> was when they are both very left of the where the institutional structure has been but there is a tendency to treat the Democratic Party<\/a> more of a coherent mobster than it is there is a weird coalition there is different interests a Critical Mass<\/a> of people committed not to change very much but thats not to say that the permeable wall and with that collective backlash would be if bernie wins iowa and New Hampshire<\/a> but it has advanced to the twoparty system. My favorite essay lately is that he cant win. [laughter] it is impossible. [laughter] so tell me why he cant win. [laughter] thank you. 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