Audience to the firstever podcast taping and mark the Second Season of the premier of the podcast of the Second Season of the realignment by the hudson media fellows. We are proud of the realignment of hudson with the podcast launched last year and i recommend especially for those of you that have been following it that you take a look at the efforts from last year. Mike pompeo, josh holly, mike gallagher, mike duran and others its an Excellent Program partly because of the two people who put it together to bring out topics and move the argument along so we couldnt be prouder of the work theyve done and i want to thank them for that and we are happy to launch this years program. Michael is a professor at the lyndon b. Johnson school of Public Affairs at the university of texas. Saving democracy for the managerial elite. The book that you could purchase at the back thats just published today so we are here at the launch. Congratulations on that. Theres a direct line between the class for and the work that was done and had been pursuing since the 90s may be drastic sympathizer known by the next American Revolution for nationalism in the revolution. Whether you agree with the interpretation of the western politics since world war ii has worked and demonstrates the causes of the solutions to the seemingly neverending cycle of clashes and shifting coalitions which is exactly what the realignment of podcast seeks to explore. Also joining us is the realignments premier guest and of course the author of the bestselling and highly influential book filled ideology with the Family Community and america. He recently cofounded the Venture Capital investing in people and technologies. And visiting fellow at aei. Jd ban this book if you havent read it, you should. Its an important discussion of a part of america that they did it come maybe someone like Charles Murray would say is outside of the bubble into classes. At the beginning of the new book, he says demagogic populism is a symptom and the disease of the democratic pluralism is the career. Im not sure if that is a throwdown for this evening but we are pleased to start from that discussion and take on the issue. We will take questions later in the program and you can email those two events hudson. Org and we will get them up to the front of the programs that please i know everybody here is technically sophisticated so this will not be a problem. Without any further ado, let me please join me in welcoming michael lind and jv vance [applause] im sure youll get sick of hearing us talk so at that point we will speak for you. From the managerial elite in the defining terms what is the cost for. It is a conflict among the hereditary classes where your parentage is associated with a particular structure. If you look at what i argue is the fundamental cleavage and the societies which is educational, its not a matter of the aftertax income. You are much more likely to get a diploma if one or both your parents have diplomas which is kind of the freeze of nobility. I argue in europe as well as the United States both sides of the atlantic are similar enough now to make robust generalizations. I wouldnt have been the case 40 or 50 years ago but a has europe have become multiethnic as the United States has become more secular i think that there is some convergence and what you see is arguably a widening divide socially and politically between the collegeeducated with the majority which doesnt have even a bachelors degree. Do you agree with that because it seems like you are suggesting unlike in previous eras class status in terms of explaining the way the society works. Yes and no. The average american that has a bachelors degree has an income of about 60,000 a year. The average High School Graduate with no Higher Education is about 37,000, so there is a correlation, but unlike in the past where the class status was based on ownership of property, whether you were a feudal landlord and owned land, or you were an ebenezer scrooge and Owner Operator of the business, but he leaves in the western world today the wealth and power and status seems to come from the possession of a large Bureaucratic Organization. It can be in the corporation or law firm or nonprofit. It can be the military. And accessed to those positions is largely determined by education. Why is it education we were speaking this morning we can be rich and still in the working class and based on the experience how do you see that on the american side . I largely agree and first of all wha of the thank you both fr doing this. Next time you have been on the podcast, please tell me which side of the couch you want beyond. [laughter] but i think that what is true about the account, i dont know thaif i 100 agree that 95 , but seems to be mostly true about that account is that if you go to a suburb in ohio and a Plumbing Firm and go to the guy that owns the firm and ask the people that work there and go to the clerical staff, there is something much more similar about that group of people, about their spouses and their children then there is between the owner of the Plumbing Supply firm and a person that is the majority with a large shareholder of google for example, so i do think that there is something about the way in which it both conquerors and reinforces and signifies the class status thats important in our society and most people do not and cannot earn their living off of the Capital Appreciation so there is this way in which of mwas michaels the professional managerial class is sort of internally coherent even though it might not have come and you know, that sort of person at the 91st percentile of the income scale it isnt going to have the same as the 99. 9 . On the managerial class, people are throwing it around like a slur. Who are these people in particular . The large Bureaucratic Organization the corporate elite, government, or is it just a transatlantic sense what is it that defines them as a class . There are different definitions. The left has something called the professional managerial class which refers in my mind to simply a small subsection of the managerial elite and these tend to be people in the professions where you set your own hours, lawyers, doctors more in the past and present professors and podcast hosts this kind of progressive theory is the working class, the professional managerial class, pod casters and professors and the capitalists and i reject this and follow the conservative movement in the 1940s and the independent Owner Operator that was the capitalists also ran his own business has been superseded already by the 1920s in the u. S. And europe by that corporate managers but also included government officials, career civil servants, academics and the uniform military which would become more and more important over time as one of the most organized at which he was kind of part of because he worked for the cia of what. I have a broader definition of it than a lot of people do that again if you contrasted with the working class, they are changing the nature because of the composition of jobs. Part of it through the loss of manufacturing through outsourcing also ordinary productivity growth. Manufacturing has shed a lot of jobs and if you look at the United States into the bureau of labor statistics, almost all of the new jobs are created in three sectors, leisure and hospitality, retail and healthcare. And according to the u. S. Government, all of the top ten jobs that are being created in numerical terms, only registered nurse requires any education beyond a High School Diploma. So, the story that we are told dot postcannot spend and not here of course [inaudible] actually they dont. Americans and their counterparts are underpaid my argument in the new class war as they are underpaid because they lack Bargaining Power of the kind that they possessed 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Before we move on, but then i havent quite understood yet is the more power. So what is it we could buy that theres an educational system with people with degrees and this is an industry that favors others but where is the war but theres thatthere is a group ofs easy that is not only looking down upon the class of actually trying to harm them to benefit themselves coming and im curious what your take is on that. I dont know if there is a secret in new york or washington or San Francisco for the committee of the ruling class gets together. Its just when powe the power in evenly distributed among the social groups and individuals pursue their own interests, the result even though it has no coordination, its going to look as though the class is doing it even when its the result of the individual actions. If you look at Public Policy from the 1990s to the present, one of the things that amazes me as a student of politics all my life is the unwillingness of people to acknowledge that there are tradeoffs with the trade and immigration and investments that different groups and societies some benefit and some lose. There is a constant propaganda free trade benefits for everybody. Largescale, low skill and they just think this is totally unrealistic. There are winners and there are losers, but its because i said that as part of the war. The policy that benefits the winners is the one that is defended in public and the only one of you here and it becomes taboo to discuss the views of the losers. The way that i think about this is the institutions the working class i has depended onn the recent past actually it has equal Bargaining Power. The classic story, labor union, participation, late 50s 33 , now 6 has been primarily globalization. Im not a fan of right to work is barely globalization. The church can classic institution working class social, the social fabric and also ensures the working class participants have meaningful participation in the direction of the culture and the direction of Public Policy that influence the culture. Working class participation have fallen off the cliff since the 1950s. Third and the big one is family. Sort of the place in which the working class children grow up hopefully in stable, healthy and happy homes and we know of course now its becoming a luxury that the working class family formation and workingclass family dissolution has dropped pretty substantial substantially. Professional class, family formation and stability has maintained more or less the level with a slight decline than it was in the 1950s or 60s. So all of these institutions were sort of necessary in ensuring they would both live happy lives but also have a meaningful stake that they would basically either disappear or become substantially weakened. For the addendum i would say theres been a class war its pretty clear whos losing. From that perspective, i with all of this and yet the critics and specifically in your book that have come out and w. You are apologizing and conflating economic anxiety for the actual racial resentment but you counter that citing an mit study that the counties that were hit hardest were most likely to support donald trump and Bernie Sanders and so if that were the case, then why arent they supported somebody like Bernie Sanders and of course i want to get you in on a opportunity to talk specifically about the economic anxiety peace that demonizes the racism. There are three races about this uprising. One is spontaneous eruption of of the neonazi racism which may be was manipulated by Vladimir Putin and he just triggered this wave of, you know, boys from brazil nationalists about the overthrow democracy. That is a partisan alibi for the loss of Hillary Clinton. In particular they like to have this compression and it goes down from the 1920s and up again. The story that i tell him the new clasin the newclass war isnd independence. Its power to the ability to influence your life and influence your society, and it exists outside of the narrow governmental realm. Libertarians get upset at this point that there is economic power in the marketplace. You do not have the quality of the Marketing Power between most employers and most employees. There is cultural power in the media. If you dont like what you find on tv or in the movies or whatever, you cant just go found room movies that are found on the social media platform, thats power. And particularly for americans on the basis the american creed with a College Republican liberty. You couldnt trus could trust td powers of any kind economic, they didnt have media back then or political power. And having checks and balances is good in and of itself and i think we lost touc that with the narrative that its all about money and if we centralized power but we give you a 500 tax credit for 2,000 tax credit every year, then you should be helping. I was just going to say i am not a fan of what ive called the craft materialistic view of economic anxiety, i think it is a competitive difficult than that. Its not just having a good job with enough money to afford the things you need, but its also looking outside your door seating a community and every single store. You have to understand what the purpose is of the narrative that trump voters were motivated by pure racism and anxiety. If they are just bad people, then you dont have to care about the concerns were about the worries. We know two things very substantially about the trump vote. Its related to the decline of manufacturing jobs which the folks had written about. We also know that it was heavily related in the rise of what folks have called depths of despair when you theorize the deaths in the community, you also see the significant shift from romney to trump in 2016. If you focus on the front of these people are resistant you are not concerned about the fact a member of the elite actually caused the Opioid Epidemic influence the community with drugs, kills a lot of people and if we are not talking about that, we are talking about the trump voters racism, we are participating in the class war. How do we balance the cultural issue because the thing that got critics think is a true fact the countries majorities are shrinking and the places that are experiencing those anxieties are also being cost into the economic. So how do we handle that . The one legitimate part of the critique is the idea that if there is a cultural shift going on its getting doing a good jf handling that. It has to be managed in a particular way so i am married to a firstgeneration immigrant. I never felt once in my life but if we didnt belong to the same part of the national community. Now we want people who are, who feel like they themselves are assimilating if they want people that have been here for multiple generations so they are assimilating as well. I think one of the problems with the policy we talk about it in economic terms and thats fine, its an important piece of the story but unless you are thinking about the marriage rates and the metrics of assimilation lets try to manage and control but in a way that is good for the population into the country. I do think that in some of these cultural or racial that is true across history and society there is no good example of a society that is absorbed in a very large number of outsiders very quickly and easily. You can blame that on social criticism if you want, but its a fact of life and if that is what youre going to call it the have to deal with it and try to tamp it down and i think sort of suppress it in a certain way but its one thing. To stop trying to manage it and we stop trying to actually build a unified nation out of the democracy that we have a but much worse than europe. 100 years ago in 1920 there was a deep political social divide between the stock and angloamerican protestants and White Americans of recent immigrants to send or sometimes not so recent in the case of the irishamericans and german. It is because of the battle of the whites in urban socalled ethnics you had prohibition. Fast forward to the 1970s the diasporas had collapsed in most of the big cities in the north. The average White American was partly provision for non british dissent. We hear this about the rising nonwhite majority, but thats counting every descendent of someone who is not a Nonhispanic White will be for the next 200 years no matter what their other ancestry is. A professor at the university of texas austin looked at latino assimilation and they lose spanish is the primary language and marry outside of their group but its the same rate that the irishamericans integer germanamericans and polish to a century ago so i would go further. I think they suppose that racial polarization of politics is greatly exaggerated. If you look at every group except for africanamericans who have the kind of pattern with 90 of the democrats and maybe 10 republicans the other groups are less polarized including Asian Americans and hispanic americans and Nonhispanic Whites they are very evenly divided. That was Hillary Clinton and donald trump, so its not polarized in that sense. Latinos depending on the state politics in my home state of texas about 40 went for governor, 29 voted for donald trump. If your definition of polarization isnt even 50 50, thats polarized that its not enormously polarized. That is an important part of the story. One of the criticisms of the populism of people that advocate for the politics im not saying that is what they are doing here but you are just shouting at the system and you dont actually advocate for anything you just want to care everything down. You are actually somewhat sympathetic to that view sotelo us why do you think the populists themselves are not Good Governance . I am a critic of populism. We dont want to be caught between the exclusive insider politics and wellconnected establishments. That is a terrible situation to be in and its the politics of the American South between reconstruction and the civil rights revolution. Yoyouve heard of the southern demagogue when you get the condition when much of the population is disconnected and excluded from politics and Cultural Authority you are going to get demagogues rise to represent them, so i think that this is dangerous. The demagogues if you look at this example in the north you find the socalled ethnics politicians into the northeast. Has anyone heard of mayor curley from boston, he represented the irishamericans rebelling against the angloamerican mayflower protestant power structure. In the south that was huey long representing the poor whites against the establishment. They almost always fail because the odds are stacked against the outsiders. They dont have the money or the protection, but they lose. They dont have people willing to work for them for insiders because it is a career suicide. Its the criminality because they have to be financed someh somehow. In my own native texas we have the populist governors james and Miriam Ferguson who succeeded each other in the 1920s and they did some good things for the farmers who were frozen out, but they financed themselves by selling to the parents of the criminals in prison. Huey long of louisiana couldnt get any money for his popular insurgency so he went into business with Frank Costello of the mafia and brought in a slot machine and so the source of the huey long patronage as a governor with a slot machine money that was also every two weeks a certain portion of every state employee pay was deducted. Then it was like the Atomic Nuclear football of the president. So, i think it is a advanced populism introduces new themes and outsiders, but you have to have some kind of a reconstruction program. Lets talk about that if somebody has a foot in both worlds how do you navigate the professional reforms, are they at once and what do you thin dik of the prescription that its going to propose later on for the actual sentiment . I do think on the one hand there are some specific policy ideas out there. Something im not a big fan of our views on how you might reinvigorate a private labor union in the 21st century with e pressures that exist economically and legally to try to make them a little less confrontational and compromisi compromising, but also giving the new benefits to surviving the 21st centurys policies are out there but i agree because i do think that most of the details of what the modern college populist or class compromise politics would look like or not ther to dare we havo figure that stuff out. I will say that i really worry about the political economy of this goes to the question about navigating the various worlds. We were talking about this earlier if they were to sort of collect the right populist people that engage meaningfully in the quantitative economic paper, maybe like 40 of them are on the stage right now. Then you have another 63. It is a small group and there is a way that the institution of this time in particular isnt wellsuited to this particular moment. I really worry about the fact that we do not actually have enough of these sort of think tank intellectuals. We dont have enough of the administrators or people that were in government. There is a lot missing. Theres a lot of institutional building that needs to be done. The criticism that there are not a lot of specific policies is there and i also think to build those things you also have to find a general way of thinking about how to settle these issues and hopefully start to build institutions out that they are still in the early days of that. I think to sum up the idea that you have, michael, is that postworld war ii in three different ways you have economic power, cultural power and political. On the economic side, if youre working in your union you can check the Corporate Power and on the cultural side, you have, and this is kind of funny i learned this reading the book you have the censorship organizations that check hollywood actually there would be cultural stagnation but at the same time we throw our hands saying i guess tom cruise is than to be antijapan now. This is another thing hard for me to reconcile the local corrupt political strongman who on the one hand we sort of see the primary system and on the other hand, they were much better capable of checking the political power in washington. Why did that whole status quo folk artifacts there were Different Reasons in these different realms and in the realm of censorship, let me preface this by saying that the working class exercised its power by veto power. It did not have the resources or expertise to come up with its own plans to strike with the threat of the strike is a veto that forces management to reconsider. The catholic legion of decency got the hollywood producers to run hollywood scripts passed them in advance. They could see no they didnt write movies themselves. The local political bosses could say no to a candidate. We didnt have the self financed candidates. The political bosses were important because this is some one you could go to see in your neighborhood. If you have a problem they connected you with the state party and the National Party that many of them were corrupt. A friend of mine used to go around the 1960s with Bobby Kennedy giving suitcases of Walking Around money to carmine, the boss of the bronx and then we have the equivalent of the south so the only thing worse than having these local Party Power Brokers is not having them because when they all vanished, then the party becomes illegal billionaires like toms tire and Michael Bloomberg and ffoxtrot can buy. Just before coming here, a few days ago i went to the website to the Democratic Party out of curiosity. My grandmother grew up on a farm in Central Texas in her africanamerican friends after the civil rights revolution had various other backgrounds, high school educated, they were part of the Travis County Democratic Party i and prevent the precinct machinery and did election work and all that. I went to the party to see how i could join and they have a donate button. The national, state and county which kind of tells you something about the structure of politics. Now it is a spectator sport unless you are a donor, pollster or candidate. To finish up, in both of your views with us a 21st century class open look like politically, economically or culturally. There is no victory in these wars. What does the settlements look like . In the class for irq you want to have another class peace treaty. Industrial capitalism is the greatest engine of Economic Development in human history. You do not want them among the beautiful the working class to be so powerful it stifles growth. If we were in a different situation where the managerial class is too weak and organized labor was too powerful, i would have it in a different book. So, what i say is we need to have the functional equivalent of some of these membership organizations and in the new class war i call it the local political entity of some kind it doesnt have to resemble the old political machine. The congregation which can be it increasingly will be a secular not necessarily religious creed and i use the term the guild to encompass all kinds of alternative labor organizations in connection with abuse ideas is, for quick machines in 1950, that they would serve some of the same purposes, mainly in pulling the numbers of the working class people, because if youre working class, you dont have access to the financial resources, to influence the society. You dont have expertise to influence policy. All you have is our numbers and unless those numbers are organized in some kind of a disciplined institutional way, you lack the power. What kind of a mental break is required from the stat this n the ideology that has been in for decades even considering these as Viable Solutions to help the working class . First of all it requires us to think about it imagine a world in which effective government is actually better than no government into requires the willingness to acknowledge different levels. I do think we have undergone this weird transformation the last 30 years and i grew up in this world reading conservative publications and being influenced by them where we made a leap from the private sector generally the right engine to do things to the Public Sector is always the wrong engine to do things and that is a pretty good way to think about the world when you are engaged in politics and Public Policy. My answer i dont know that i have a very good answer. It probably looks Something Like what mike said it looked like. You have the reinvigorated Community Institutions of the working class level whether it is church or something local or communal you have actual workers organizations that can push for their interest and advocate for their membership. But i do worry. When i think about this book which by the way i think is excellent and i would encourage everybody to play this and engage with it. I worry that we are incapable of solving a lot of problems. Its not that weve reached this juncture five or ten years from now where we really start to solve things, whether we undergo a ten to 15 to 20 or period sort of managed decline and then hopefully we are able to solve those things. I do think that there is a way that the politics are so fundamentally broken, the institutions are broken, you know, i dont even know what Congress Actually does right now, and apparently sort of looking at the impeachment trial it seems sort of gets old very late roman and that worries me. I dont know the answer is out of this conundrum, but i think that if there is an answer to your willing to push for, then we should be paying attention. If i can add one optimistic note. The philosopher adam smith and a Research Assistant who was reading the newspaper when they and they suffered some reverse seeking to professor smith and said britain is ruined and professor smith said there is a great deal of ruin in the country. When we talked about was donald trump and its interesting on this podcast the political realignment sparked by the president of the United States will actually often dont end up talking about it and i think that this is one of the central questions ive seen about this administration, this question is is trump still at the forefront of the realignment or has he governed more like the prioritized tax cut scene business needs, im assuming high skilled workers is what they meant here, et cetera. How do you think of trump in the context of the new class or . What the me say that from the beginning i thought of trump had less to do with mussolini on hitler than with Arnold Schwarzenegger and his friend jesse ventura. Ventura tried to take over the reform party and when you get these celebrity outsider president s, they have two choices. If they run nominally as the leader of one of the two parties in the United States, they can either govern once they are elected as conventional republican or democrat or they can try between the two. From the very beginning, trump became a republican. Most of his life as democrat or independent, but that was the fundamental strategic decision he made with the tax cut into a lot of other things with one exception, the exception is foreignpolicy where the president fought for on the euro much more dependent in your own party and i think hes made a difference as george w. Bush left the country in afghanistan and iraq despite the air on thing, trump thousand added a war and seems to favor the theatrical displacement force as an alternative to the deeper engagement kind of postponing it and the other area where i think he has shown a zone for elections by bringing in robert white hiser. Not just inferring this from his actions, he decided okay im going to write a blank check to congress on the domestic policies but in particular and trade. Its not heritage in 1981 like the reagan revolution its a group of people that were largely blindsided and the playbook the past 20 years. So i dont think that hes seen a substantial realignment and how things could actually have gone. The political piece of it still continues. I think that you see the shift and i think that republicans now in the districts in the country there is a weird way where the policies havent quite caught up to the politics. One thing i would add to the specific information with trade is the issue of trump deserves remarkable credit for shifting the entire conversation. Its tough to overstate how different do believe consensus was in 2014 relative to today. We all sort of guess with the exception of the Democratic Front runner that its a but ita significant problem both economically and International Securities and. And i really think that the credit for changing the conversation and the narrative goes largely. Thats right. You see on the democratic stage only one can debate i the city could take away the china tariffs and if that isnt a political realignment, i dont know what is. This is an interesting one. What about some of the least economic this is a lightning round, so it could be implemented to restore the power and capital and labor. Talking about labor markets, labor naturally wants to have a sellers market and buyers market in labor, the sellers market in labor and employers on the buyers market. So, there is that the basic thats why from the 1820s until the 1990s, the American Labor movement tended to be more restrictive immigration policies and the employer elite wanted looser as the former Country Club Republicans have become the new coastal democrats, or their children and grandchildren have, you have seen that the shift of the perspective. But even if you dont do anything else for labor, if you have the tight labor markets, and it isnt simply immigration. Its the paid vacations. Maybe early retirement, things like that, anything that makes employers compete for workers can help their Bargaining Power. I agree with you that if i was going to get a second answer maybe its a substantial increase. I do think of the working class is better than the country we have to restart the productivi productivity. Sort of stagnates past 20 or so years and that is a lot of motivation and th in the story,i agreed that i would add some more so that we can get the economy into the position today like it was. Into the western democracy not just the similar attempt at saving capitalism as if they are carried out to making these adjustments to make sure the system remains a viable, and if we do redistribute power and money to not make the current winners, losers and current losers winners and not actually correct anything. I disagree with that and i think it was also churchill after 1945. For the capital and labor as the partners in the common project and regional reconstruction and there are those on the left and some attorneys on the right but that is the position i think that we can go back to that. The people that benefit from this in the long run are the privileged if they can serve the privileged by making strategic concessions to the working class. Theres a story about Joseph Kennedy the financier father of bobby and ted kennedy. He was asked why he supported Franklin Roosevelt and the new deal and said i would give away half by fortune to keep the other half. Historically if you look at the postworld war and postdepression called it society that engaged in that corporatism or class compromise, the uk and the United States at the top of the list if you look at the societies that refuse to engage in a sort of compromise, you include russia, italy, germany, you know how it went for those guys. I do think that there is something pretty unpredictable about the political instability. And if that is in general to try to reform the system as best you can to assume one group is going to try and even if they do isnt good for everybody. With the current information that includes computers, automation, communications etc. Come and talk about the impact of the revolution on the class war with the power and influence i think specifically what kind of a big tech and internet specifically. There is a radical difference in how the media are used by the social classes. Theres all these studies showing people on twitter are overwhelmingly collegeeducated people. The working class gets much of its information from oldfashioned television and from podcasts of course. This is probably more the first group. They are in their cars and jobs. I wouldnt exaggerate the role of media that much. The First Television and the internet is a tendency to think people are terribly malleable and can be mesmerized and advised by the media this is the basis of the whole russian Conspiracy Theory that russian means brainwashed African Americans that didnt vote for hillary and this other group devoted to trump. I remember back in the 70s there was a study that showed when all of the family came out and it was supposed to promote liberal values but most of the people that watched it off that archie was the hero. Archie bunker into the whole point of the show was to make fun of the collegeeducated media. So, people can vote for the media. They have the mentalitys and cultures of their own. I maybe may be a little bite comes. Rail and more than one does. When i go to a restaurant with my family and i see basically have of the table and all the kids sort of staring at the device and the parents were even staring at the devices and not speaking to each other, then you recognize fundamentally the Business Model is largely built on what others have called information arbitrage every second you spend staring at the device as opposed to reading a book or communicating your family is a dollar of revenue they make and they are good at making devices that make you stare at those things as long as possible, and i think that there is something very disturbing about the way that it captures our attention and the way that it makes us less productive. I talk to a lot of entrepreneurs who are worried about the effect it has on people working eight, nine hours but maybe they are actually only working four or five hours because they are so absorbed in their devices. Or some other electronic innovation. The last question that we had is about education. If education transcends interest in division, however, we define some Equitable Society which does not share the same level of education, what do you think. It depends on what the education is useful or not. I pointed out earlier, arguably americans are overeducated in different studies show 10215 of jobs being done with people with bas do not require more than a high school education. I think if anything its worse for society to have a sense of disconnect between the degrees in their perfectly respectable workingclass jobs but they feel they are degraded because is not the income they expected from the degree or the status they expected. In terms there is a version of progression i if professionas make more money will make everyone a professional and everyone will make more money. If you do that and give everyone a ba it becomes a High School Diploma or a ged and you get a society he was an aristocrat who had no money. And you dont want that kind of society. I am pretty skeptical that our lead Education System works especially well, theres always a debate of whether education is signaling or primarily Human Capital development. If you were to test that theory on the people who are the most powerful advocates of Human Capital development, go to Yale Law School which has an average class size of 200, its where i went to school until the ministers and the donors and people who are alumni that we should triple or quadruple the average side of Yellow School class. If its such a great education were just developing Human Capital, we should give it to as many people as possible. But that deflates a value, the exclusiveness of a degree in so much of what were doing with modern education is social signaling and if we dont get out of that trap or stop spending so much money i think we are screwed. On that note [applause] thank you again. [laughter] weeknights this week, we are featuring book tv programs showcasing whats available every weekend on cspan2. Tuesday, books on the middle east, first Michael Rubin and brian could to list talk about instability in the middle east and where u. S. Actions against iran may lead, then kim talks about the decades long rivalry between iran and saudi arabia. After that a retired Career Foreign Service officer who served in the middle east for 25 years talks about u. S. Policy in the region in the recent confrontation between the u. S. And iran. Watch book tv this week and every weekend on cspan2. Up next, book tv takes a look at the American Worker starting with the Steven Greenhouse book, beaten down, worked up, after that they compare the economic debates of the 1960s to those happening today in her book great society. Later, mary grays ghost work looks at how the work entering workforce tribes Large Tech Companies like amazon, google and uber. Steve greenhouse, thank you so much for coming in to talk about your new book, beaten down, worked up, it was a real pleasure to read it and i look forward to having some time to talk to you about it. Thank you for the kind words congressman, great to speak with