a shy boy who grew up in alabama, overcame polio, was i inspired by henry clay at the university of louisville to become a senator, did, then set out to become the majority leader of the united states is sin and did. but have a confession to make. when i was asked asked to do this, here is what i thought. how could anyone get mitch mcconnell to talk for an hour?oo because you in your own but you point i joy speak to the press when it is to your advantage. you talk but time when bill gates came in to see you and the two of you just sat there. people in uncouple waiting for when you speak and someone was told president george w. bush that you are excited over a certain vote and he said really? how can you tell? why so few words? >> guest: well, i'm not afraid to talk but i found i learned a lot more by listening. so for a startup by listening, think about what i want to say before i do it. i think it's fair to say that in the arab trump probably very different in my approach to commenting on public affairs, you're not the first one. i remember the late bob novak uses a heart is in a bp have had on "meet the press" was with sender mike mansour because asking the question and he was a yep or ask another one anything nope any run out of questions. the h easiest one was hubert humphrey, one question he would talk for 30 minutes.k >> guest: you don't get into trouble for what you don't say. i think there's nothing wrong being cautious about your comments. i don't mind talking but are usually like to know what i'm talking about before i ventured down the path. >> host: you're not so cautious in your book. there's a lot of unexpected material. there's the polio. we'll talk about that. you're this fight with dickie mcgrew. your vote for lyndon johnson in 1964 over civil rights. and then when it gets to professor obama and senator harry reid, your democratic counterpart and the senate conservativent fund, you don't hold back there. i think most people wouldou be surprised to learn your an all-american tailgater at the university of louisville and we'll talk about that. why do we start with polio? 1944, your two years old living with your mom in alabama and the doctor, your values overseas overseas y in the war. the doctor says, mitch has polio. it's hard today to imagine how terrifying those words must t he been for parents then traded out absolute. i subsequently learned there was a serious epidemic in 1944 all over the country. the disease is very, very unpredictable. of course you would have the flu. you think you're the flu, and a couple of weeks later some people would be completely normal. couple weeks later some people be in an iron lung or dead. in my case it affected my left quadriceps, the muscle between your knee and your thigh. in one of the great good fortune of myy life, this little crossroads in alabama is not even a stoplight there where my mother as you indicated was living with her sister while my dad was overseas fighting the germans.s. happen to be 60 miles from warm springs. and roosevelt, having gone tohe himself in the 20s trying to -- >> host: because he had polio as an adult. >> guest: he got at age 39. completely paralyzed below the waist. >> host: but your mother had no way of knowing if you might be like the present, completely paralyzed trickett not completely but the worst-case know from you would've been a brace on my left leg. o and so i didn't have as the very case as president roosevelt had. but the key, imagine, i am two years old. k my mother took me over to warm springs. they totter a physical 30 regimental to administer it four times a day and to keep me off my feet. so she literally watched me like a hawkal for two years every waking moment and tried to convey to me the solo message didn't want me to think i could walk but i shouldn't walk, very subtle message. she watched me -- that's what -- she watched me every minute and prevented me prematurely walking. she told me that years later. my first memory in life was the last visit to warm strings whether told my mother i was going to be okay, that i would be able to walk, that -- we stopped in a shoe store on the way back to alabama to get a pair of low top shoes which were kind of assumed that i was going to have a normal childhood, and git did have a normal childhood trauma how old were you? >> guest: for mike at this point. >> host: what an amazing thing. you've got a chapter in a book called resilience. i guess resilience must come from that to some extent. >> if impressions being made on us at the really early age are sniffing some people think, should have one on me that if you stick to something you keep working at it and giving it your best the chances are you've actually overcome whatever problem you currently have. >> host: any impediment today? >> guest: some. the quadricep is moree important going downstairs that up. i'm not great at going downstairs but i've had a perfectly normal life. when i was a kid i wasn't good at running long distances but i could play baseball. sport that doesn't have the come back and forth like basketball does trauma let's move move ono dickie. your father encouraged you to have fistfight with dickie. what was at about? >> guest: he didn't encourage me. i had no choice.it this was a situation, i was about seven and we lived in alabama. i had a friend across the street named nikki who was he older than i was and considerably bigger. it was also a bully and he kept pushing me around. my dad was out working in new york one day and he saw that come again he'd seen it before picky come over and he said son, i been watching the way he's been pushing around. i want you to go over there and beat them up. i said he's older that i am an bigger nine. dad said i'm older than he is an bigger than he has, so given what some would say thompson's choice, i chose dickie. i went across the street and started swinging and beatar them up and bent his classes. it was an incredible lesson ino standing up to bullies and i thought about that throughout my life at critical moments people are trying to push you around trauma you a chapter standing your ground. let's jump ahead to kentucky, the university of louisville. people look at c-span might wonder what he does send us talk about when on the floor? they're watching you, the odds are you talking about the university of louisville sports. before i get to that, your honor thesis was henry clay, senator henry clay. that inspired you to want to be senator? >> guest: i've got an interest in politics in school. i ran for president of the student body in high school. big high school, very contentious race. >> host: you said you were hot. >> guest: i one. i begin to follow politics. i member at age 14 when the conventions were really the coverage of convention were really dull. they would focus on the podium and listen to all the speeches on tv drama or were used to come is a big zenith radio and we will would listen to the whole thing ono the radio. >> guest: purdy boring. you may havety been doing this t i thought i was probably the only 14-year-old in america. maybe you were watching, too. watching those things from gavel toto gavel. i began to try to practice this crap to see if i i could get gd at it.d and i ran for president of student council in college and law school, and clay was the most famous t politician in kentucky. >> host: what about clay inspired you most? >> guest: outhe fact that he and in not terribly significant state some would argue had become a major statesman, in kentucky people focus on clay so wanted to learn more about him. >> host: but he was known for crafting compromises, which is a dirty word today to some peopleo >> guest: it is but actually essential. that's what the constitution is full of compromises. you and i in our daily lives do it every single day in order to make the senate function. so i did my senior thesis on henry clay and the compromise of 1850. i continued to follow him as a lot of aspiring kentucky politicians to. >> host: there's another aspect of contact and that's this athletic program. describe your tailgating schedule. >> guest: well, football is an important part of life but you take it -- >> host: you take it precisely. >> guest: i do.av i have some regulars, one of them goes back to college and we go too every home game. an occasional away game. we make a it david. we go out early. one of my friends has an rv in the parking lot, and we talk about what will happen in the game and a then we go to the ga, talk about what did happen in the game. it's t a complete lengthy exercise, one of the great joys of life.e. >> host: let's jump ahead a little bit. we talked about the early 1960s when you at the university of louisville. you and i both go to washington. we just each realize in a green mustang towards in the 1960s. you worked for marlow cook from kentucky and idy worked for a coup. i remember in 1960 and send it or sang to me you need to go over and meet that smart young legislative aide named mitch mcconnell. let's go back to louisville. in the label you lead a march or part of thear march on the capil about civil rights. you were in washington as i i s toto hear martin luther king's speech in august 1963, the i have a dream speech. you have had goldwater come speak to the universe of legal because you are president of the college republicans but you voted vote for lyndon johnson. what happened? >> guest: and our generation i think thehe civil rights move ws the defining issue of our generation. in 62 i had been fortunate when i was called republican president, goldwater accepted and vocation to come. it's terrific or in 63 the sum of 63 people like you and myself got to see the i have a dream speech.ec the institute for i was an intern and send it a cooper's office. two important things things happen and 64. we broke the filibuster of the civil rights bill and send it or cooper was in the middle of breaking the filibuster and we nominated barry goldwater, one of the few people to vote for the civil rights bill. i wasou mad as hell about it. i was so irritated about goldwater voting against the civil rights bill and defining the republican party in a in ai thought would be unfortunate, that i voted for lyndon johnson which in retrospect was a huge mistake. but it was a protest. it was a protest vote. >> host: that feeling carried days.nto senate you voted, when president reagan vetoed the sanctions on south africa for apartheid, you voted not to override his veto tractor i voted to override it. >> host: which most republicans did not do. >> guest: right. i just. felt like reagan who was widely admired by people likeer you and me was simply wrong about whether or not south african sanctions a could work. i know there are people who think sanctions network. occasionally they do. they worked in south africa. it worked in burma a number of years later, and i thought reagan was wrong edited vote to override his veto. >> host: you mentioned burma. how did you get interested in -- that was an excellent rating that lasted over 20 is the i remember what you stand up and make speeches on the senate floor really wondered what you are doing. >> guest: i started following her after shehe won the nobel peace prize in 91. and for blisters were not play with her, she is, her father was sort off the founder, modern burma but he did live very long. he got assassinated. she went off to europe and went to school and that in the united states are welcome married a guy from britain, had two sons, come back to burma in 1988 to care for her sick mother when this movement started. she was sort of thrust into the leadership and the military junta about the couches into early '60s decided to have free and fair election. they got creamed. their reaction to getting creamed in the free and for election was too rest all the people who would got elected and put under house arrest in her own house where she remained most of the time for 21 years. so we we would slip notes to each other over the years, and i offered along with others burma sanction bills that openly made thee difference. >> host: you visiteded her, did you not, not longer go? >> guest: amazingly enough, the regime began to crumble in 2011, and so then we were able to talk on the phone and actually went to burma in january 2012. i got to see her in person, invited her to come to that university of louisville to the mcconnell center later that year and she did come in september of 2012. and now she is the de facto elected leadership, leader of the country, even though the constitution prohibits anyone who was married to a foreigner who has been married to a foreigner to be president, , put in the constitution exactly to keep her from being president. she is the de facto president.re she put in a president who is a close ally. >> host: you mention the mcconnell center at the university of louisville. what does thatl do? >> guest: it's basically a scholarship program for the best and brightest kids that i started about 25 years ago. youpr have to be from kentucky d there are ten ten each year, tn freshmen, and sophomores, juniors, ten seniors. so it designed to try to do, to compete with ivy league schools and to get sharper kids to stay in kentucky for education, believing that if they stay there they are more likely to stay the after school. 70% of the graduates have chosen to stay in kentucky where most of the sharp kid to go off to the east to school never come back. what i i do is bring in speaker, and we've had some great with over the years, hillary clinton was there while she was joeetary of state, and biden was there when he was vice president. chief justice roberts has been there and is not only for the 40 who get to meet with the speaker, but they address a larger public audience while they are there. trauma let's switch to politics, a subject you like to discuss and something you're pretty good at. you are undefeated. you have won six races in kentucky, 12 county primaries. let's talk about the first one, commercial.nd you were, well, i think all of us in the training center our political accidents. not all of us will admit it but we all are. you surely were. you were 30 points behind in july. so the bloodhound, what was that? >> guest: it was a desperate situation. roger ailes who is now pretty well known --, how did you find roger ailes? >> guest: in the stacy is doing political consulting am doing commercials. >> host: willing to take on someone in a democratic state was 30 points behind? >> guest: he had a couple of clients he thought is going to win that you, and me. i appreciated the fact is willing to take the on. this is a tough competitor. started cnbcow he for nbc and started fox for rupert murdoch. here's the situation to it wasul july of the election. i was down -- 1984, i was down 34 points. we points. we had a beating in louisville and i said roger, is this race over? here's what he said. i've given anybody to come from this far behind this late to win but i don't think it's over. a very competitive guy. i was running against a pretty smart democratic incumbent who didn't have a lot of obvious vulnerabilities. we were looking for some kind of issue that, i need an haystacked if you will. it turned out, this was back in the honorary days which you didn't have any problem people making speeches of money but he be making speeches for money while he was missing votes on the senatehi floor. so roger ailes turned that in to a couple of ads featuring a kentucky on her type with bloodhounds out looking for him to getting back to work. it electrified the campaign, got people interested in it, got people talking about it. then there was a sequel in which we had a guy who looked like him, and actor who is being chased by the doctor knew literally ended up, up in a tree and the key line was we got you now. they treat him right at the end. not exactly a landslide one-vote precinct, but the other way wod look at even though reagan carried 40 and efficacy, we lost two seats in the senate and he's only democratic income sender no country that you your toulouse. trauma i think your democratic opponents next i would say your method of campaign which is to smash him in the mouth before they get started. probably, i'm guessing your campaign of the net was the last 2014 pick because judd the senate can so it is fun coming from the right, harry reid from t the left and it wasa pretty big draw but you started right out by and the call to republican opponent that the happgovernment kentucky, bail ot tragic you and i witnessed the result in 2010 and 2012, i was glad all thean attention was on you. >> guest: the senate conservatives and the alis cost is five races in 2010 and 2012. by nominating people who couldn't win. and so at the beginning of 2014 i said not only my race butoi other races will not allow that to happen anymore. and so what we did not only in my race but in other races around the country we got the most electable people nominated. basically took them on. because if you were dealing with a group of people, who think compromised as a dirty work and always want to make a point but never make a difference, the only thing to do if you want to win the election is to beat them. them. so we want every primaryry including my own, and as you indicated my primary opponent was a pretty credible guy that i'm sure got elected governor of kentucky but in my primary he the county.of >> , it's kind of like your despite with dickie. one of the top aides josh holmes said this in 2013. the senate conservatives fund has been wandered around the country destroying the republican party like a drunk who terrors of everybody walked in. the difference this cycle is that if they stroll into mitch mcconnell barn he's not going to stir you out. he's going to lock the door. those are prettyig fighting wor. >> guest: i think that's what needed to be done. and as a result if you look at 2014 as a result of that approach not only my race but several others, we took the senate back. we had the most electable candidates on the november lellot ever trauma let's cross the aisle and talk about the senate democratic leader harry reid. you and i were at a funeral a few days ago and you and senator reed both spoke and he said what i've often heard both of you say, that people think mitch mcconnell and i don't liked each other, but we are good friends. you say in your book, you are friends with harry reid. but then you say he's got a jekyll and hyde personality when he hears that he says your class was and you like toto think women are dogs and pigs. you say -- not in your book, but i think i you have said of the places that he may be the worst majority leader. the the senate is a place of relationships. what about this relationship democratic and republican leader? are you friends or are you not friends? look, i've been very, very public about a couple things about harry. number one, i didn't like the way he shut the senate down and prevent people from voting. i didn't like the way he ran the senate and i think his public rhetoric is frequently very inappropriate. so i don't think -- >> host: like what? >> guest: the example used mentioned. justt a few weeks before we are taking this he took all of donald trump's most outrageous comments and attributed them to me. i don't do that to him. i don't think there's an equivalent here, but nevertheless, i think a lot of people it is like refuting all the time. we are not using all the time. we have to talk on a daily basis. i do the meal object to the way he ran the senate, and my goal in this current majority is to be as different in every way from harry and the way he ran the previous majority. in other words, i'm trying to do everything totally different. so i do object to the way he ran the senate and i do object to this inflammatory rhetoric like calling alan greenspan a political hack. alan greenspan may be many things that aal political hack e utcertainly isn't.. or calling george w. bush a loser or saying the iraq war is lost right in the middle of a a major military exercise there. i can't fail to express my objection to that kind of rhetoric, which is frequently flat-out wrong. >> host: let's take one of the person you talk about the senate conservative fund. you write about senator reed. you have a chapter entitled professor obama. why did you choose those words? >> seguest: the president at the very smart guy. i think he knows a lot about a lot of things. i think he would do a better job in dealing with others if he would spend less time trying to a quite whoever he's talking to at the moment is brilliance, and more time listening. just to draw contrast been doing the president and vice president president i've been in a number of major deals with the vice president. they were importantaj worth doig for the country. he doesn't think any time trying to convince me of things he knows i don't believe and i don't spend anyny time trying to convince him of things he doesn't play. in other words, we don't waste any time on all that. we get down to trying to figure out what wee can do together because he knows how far i can go and i know how far he can go. i think the president would be better off come he's a brilliant guy. he's successful in his political career, rising quickly to the top in american politics. but i don't think these incessant lectures are very helpful in getting an outcome if you're in some kind of negotiation. >> host: let's talk about the fight is covered for a minute. i forget aboutbo that a lot and expression disappointment that you and the president haven't been able to accomplish more together because i've heard youu say that divided government is the time when you do hard things because you spread the responsibility around. democrats say about you that you said early on that your main goal was to make president obama a one-term president.si i for gsa that you made the speech only on its time to go to work on entitlements that offer a hand to do that and you never heard back from anybody. whose fault is it that we haven't taken advantagege of ths seven years of divided government to work together? >> guest: obvious i have a point of view on that. onm the obama one-term presiden, i do admire bob woodward was the only major reporter in town who reported the rest what i said right after that, , which was in the meantime we have plenty of work to do and we had to look for ways we could work together. that was conveniently snipped off by almost everyone. i think divided government is probably the only time you can do big transformative things. give you four examples. reagan and tip o'neill raise the age for social security. reagan and tip o'neill did the last comprehensive tax reform. bill clinton and a republican congress did welfare reform that actually bounced the budget three years and a row. big stuff. arguably none of that could've been done in unified government. let me give an example of what unified government could produce a big outcome. bush had just been reelected in 2004. he asked all of us to tackle social security. i was number two in our conference at the time and i spent a year trying to get any democrat, any democrat even joe lieberman the most reasonable democrat to join with us and their attitude was, you have the white house, you have the house. you have the senate. you want to do something for social security? you do it. what that means is we use you in the next election. so my take disappointment with barack obama is there are two things that had to be done to save us from the path we are headed. entitlement eligibility changes. in other words, you have to change the eligibility for very popular things like medicare and social security to fit the demographics of america tomorrow. not america in the '30s, not america in the '60s. it's also init the '30s, medicare in the '60s. the president knows that. he's a very smart guy. he doesn't want to do it. .. >> guest: so these two big, transformative issues we have been unable to address because the nation's ceo simply doesn't want to do it. >> host: supposedly maybe the best example of when we did do that was in civil rights in the '60s, and we both, we both saw that. i remember when i first came up herebe working for senator bake. everett dirkson was the leader, he has the office you now have, and for days democrats and republicans worked together to see if they could get enough votes to get 67 which is what it then took x. they did that, and johnson and dirkson did that together because of their very special relationship. you have in your book a story, senator john sherman cooper took you as a youngster to the signing of the voting rights act in 1965, and you had a conversation with presidentnt johnson's daughter lucy. >> guest: yeah. i sawmi lucy in 2008. i'd never met her. at a celebration of her dad's 100% birthday. and i said, lucy, we've never met, but i was in this very room, statuary hall, when your dad signed the voting rights act in 1965. she said, i was too. and i said i'm sure everybody knew you were there and nobody knew i was, i was at the back of the room. and she said i'll tell you why i was there. she said my daddy said to me, get in the car, i'm going to take you down to witness something important and explained to me on the way down to the hill why everett dirkson was going to be prominently featured in his remarks expect reason x. she said, well, why would you have a republican there? and she said that president johnson said to her not only did most of the republicans vote for it, but the nation will be more likely to accept it if they think we have done this together. lucy johnson in 2008 explaining why she was there in 1965. >> host: and, of course, they had -- to do that, they had a relationship. senator baker used to tell me about the time that he herald his father-in-law if, dirkson, take aar phone call in his offie k andat he heard dirkson say, n, mr. president, i can't come down and have a drink with you tonight, i did that last night, and loue,-- louella's mad at me. [laughter] lyndon johnson said if you won't are a drink with america i'm here to have one with you x they disappeared into the back room of the same office that the civil rights bill was written. so that was, that relationship precedes probably divided government. let's talk about the senate as an institution ait little bit. you alluded to it earlier. you said your main goal is to restore the senate as an institution. you're something of a historian. you thought about getting your ph.d. in history at one time. and you went on the floor before you were majority leader and said you wanted to run the senate the way senator mike mansfield ran it who was the majority leader 16 years, the time you and i both came here. whatat did you mean by that? >> guest: what i meant by that was, and we were talking about this earlier, my critique of harry reid's period as majority leader. first of all, you have to open y the senate up. the last year of the previous majority there were only 15 roll call vote on amendments the entire year. the first year of the new majority we had over 200. so you open the senate up. let people vote. number two, when we talk about regular order which most people don't know what that means -- >> host: it glazes the eyes right there -- [laughter] >> guest: yeah. it means a bill's actually worked on together, comes out to floor with bipartisan support and has a better chance of success. the best example if i h can thik of that happens to be your bill that completely rewrites the so-called no child left behind bill pass ined in the early bus3 years which proved to be unworkable and unpopular. and by the time you brought it out of committee, you had the democrats and republican lined up. took it to the floor. it was relatively open for amendments, not that everybody got everything they wanted, and in the end it passed with a very large majority. we have tone that time after time after time under this new majority whether it was trade promotion authority or a five-year highway bill which mostst people would think woulde easy. we haven't done that in 20 years. comprehensive energyhe bill, cybersecurity, permanent internet tax moratorium with, a major opioid and heroin addiction bill. we're hoping to achieve manager really important again coming out of your committee related to some of the incredible cures that seem to be just around the corner for our country. now, what does all this have in common in a time of divided government? we're focusing on the things that we can agree on and do those. because when people elect a divided government, i think they're saying we know you have big differences, but why don't you look for the things you agree on and do those. and that's how this majority is totally different from the previous one. >> host: and it's important to say andy i've heard you say it, but you have to do -- as johnson did to dirkson -- give the other side credit. in my case with fixing no child left behind, that never would have happened if senator patty murray of washington, the leading democrat, hadn't been as interested in the result as i have, and our bill on biomedical research won't. but it's never -- it's not a bad thing to get somebody else -- give somebody else credit. [laughter]bo >> guest: no. >> host: usually, it helps you get where you want to go. you came here 50 years ago working for senator cooper. what's the most different about the senate today, and what's something that's the same? >> guest: well, i think what's different is the two party labels really sort of mean something today. when you and i first came into washington, there were liberal republicans and conservative democrats. the two party labels today are more descriptive of america's two-party system. the republicans are mostly all right of center, right of center, and the democrats are mostly all left of center. finish is so i think the labels mean more today than they did then. that's different. think isn't different is that there isn't as much animosity or unwillingness to work together as is portrayed in the media. with the internet and 24-hour cable television going on, people get hammered with what they teach 'em in journalism school that only bad news and conflict is news. so people are way more upset about the process than they ought to be. they are legitimately upset about where they are in their lives x it's a fact that the average american is 3 or $4,000 a year worse with off today than they were, for example, when president obama came to office. so that's a legitimate complaint. but the senate is not dysfunctional. it used too be but it's not anymore, and one of my great frustrations is that not many people know that. >> host: no, that -- we can talk about -- i remember when i came to the senate as a senator having worked in it before, i thought i knew what i was getting into, but i didn't realize what it was like to work in ae body that operates by unanimous consent. [laughter] i mean, most people don't realize you're the majority leader, but if they'll listen carefully on c-span, you'll stand up at the end of the day and say i ask consent that the senate open tomorrow at i 9:30 and that we have a prayer and we go to this bill. and if one senator objects, you have to start, you have to start over. how would you -- have you had to suggest to someone a book to read about understanding the senate, do one or two come to mind? >> guest: oh, my goodness, it'd probably put people to sleep because the senate is ironically work out pretty much the way george washington predicted. according to legend, he was asked when he presided over the constitutional convention what do you think the senate will be like. he said he thought it'd be like the saucer underneath the teacup, and the tea would slosh out and cool off. why did he say that? senators until a hundred years ago were not popularly elected, and only a third of the senate was up every two years. so i think on purpose the founders wanted the senate to be a place where the brakes could be applied pretty easily. and then over the years, as you suggest, the notion of ununlimited debate empowered every single senator to have an impact. ifs house is like a triangle with the speaker at the top, the senate's more like a level playing field with the majority leader having the right of first recognition. after that it's pretty much a jump ball. so stepping back from all the minutiae, what should people take away about the senate? the senate is a place where with things slow down, are thought over and rarely done on a strictly partisan basis unless you have a huge number of your party. >> host: i think the first chapter of robert caro's book about lyndon johnson is master of the senate -- maybe master of deseat too -- it's called "the depths of the senate." that struck me after the election the engineers come in, and if the democrats have won more than the republican, they up bolt the republican desks and move enough over to the other side to even it out. that's, to me, a wonderful way to given to think about the way the place works. let me switch gears completely. you weree married, had three daughters, divorced while you were mayor of jefferson county which is louisville. you were a bachelor for 13 years. ande. then at the suggestion ofa friend, you had your assistant telephone the assistant for the -- [laughter] chairman of the federal maritime commission, and that was how you met elaine chao who you've now married. that wasn't a very romantic beginning. [laughter] it doesn't sound to me. >> guest: i don't know -- [laughter] younn know, i had befriended a couple of people when i was a staffer in the senate, and i kept up with them over the years. i went home to try to have my own career, and i had, as you indicated, been single for quite a while, was single when i came to the senate. and i wanted to meet somebody new, so i called up julia chang block who is this friend from a long time ago and said do you know anybodydy knew? and she said i've got the woman you ought to meet, and that was elaine chao whose, you know, family is a classic example of why we never want to totally curtail immigration in this country. >> host: well, tell something about her family's story. i mean, it is a remarkable story. >> guest: it is. her mom a and dad, born in mainland china, when they were young, they werely dodging the japanese invasion of china. then whenes they got to be a little bit older, there was the communist revolution. finish they -- they separately managed to get out of mainland china and go to taiwan. and they had met briefly on the mainland, and my father-in-law had taken a liking to her, so he searched in taiwan for two years to find her. they got married, had three daughters over there. my wife elaine is the oldest. but he was an ambitious young man. he wanted to do better. so he came to america three years by himself, worked multiple jobs trying to get a start in the shipping business. he had been a ship's captain in taiwan. he wanted to be more than that. and so he, for three years worked multiple jobs to get his start. he called for my late mother-in-law and the threee daughters to come over. they didn't have enough money for an airline ticket. they came over on a freighter. they were the only people other than the crew and the boat commodity on a big freighter. finally ended up in a small apartment in queens. and he kept working and kept having the kids. they ended up with six daughters, fourav of whom have gone to harvard business school. one is only a lawyer -- [laughter] and he built a very successful shipping business. and, you know, that is the kind of story that you see all across america which is another reason why even in moments when we're frustrated about our attitudes about illegal immigration to remember that we were all, virtually all of us unless we were african-americans who were brought here against our will the sons and daughters of risk-takers. and so this constant renewal process for the people we have have -- that come here legally, i think elaine and her family are classic examples of that. >> host: i want to ask you about some senators, one living, the rest of them deceased. the living one is is john mccain. you and he had a big brawl over the first amendment. [laughter] most people may not know that your first amendment view had to do with basically no limits on campaign finance disclosure, and you voted against the constitutional amendment that would have banned desecration of the american flag. so you're pretty far out there on the first amendment, but john mccain disagreed with you. mccain-feingold was the bill, you lost. what's your relationship with john mccain today? >> guest: very close. that's a good example of being able to have, you know, a knock-down, drag-out fight over issues that went on for about ten years. it was really pretty stressful between us at various points. but, you know, i called him up today after he won in the supreme court -- actually, one of the worst days of my life, actually, was watching a republican house, a republican senate and a republican president pass a bill that i was opposed to. and i am deeply opposed to, and i was the plaintiff and lost in the supreme court, called him up the day after and i said, congratulations, john, you won. i lost. and we found that there were a lot of other things we could work on together, and become fast friends and allies on a whole variety of different things, and that's the way the senate ought to work. anden frequently does. i'm not sure many of the people in the public know that. >> host: do you consider john mccain an american hero? >> guest: absolutely. >> host: and here's some -- i'd like to ask you to give me just one or two sentences about each of the following united states senators. all of them deceased. the first thing that comes to your mind about henry clay. >> guest: the great compromiser. >> host: lyndon baines john. >> guest: as a. senator? >> host: yeah. >> guest: overrated. i think the master of the senate was mikeke mansfield. >> host: well, mike mansfield. >> guest: master of the senate. >> host: everett dirkson. >> guest: indispensable player who knew when to oppose and when to join up and an unsung hero in the civil rights movement. >> host: senator john sherman cooper of kentucky. >> guest: role model as a young man and great conviction, very smart. >> host: ted kennedy. lion of the was the senate, as one of the many books aboutab him have been written, d he roared. and you and i both knew when he was passionate, which he was about almost everything. but in many ways i think the most accomplished kennedy. he never got to be president, never was attorney general, but i think in almost every way the most accomplished kennedy. >> host: certainly most accomplished senator as a kennedy and maybe the most accomplished -- you know, we used to laugh with him about going to lincoln day dinners, and all you had to do was mention ted kennedy's name to fire up the us crowd. [laughter] when i made my first speech on the senate floor about american history, he came over unsolicited, took my bill, won't out and got 20 democratic cosponsors within a day. he knew exactly how to make the senate work. senator robert byrd. >> guest: could well have been senate historian. >> host: during the presidential campaign this year, governor christie got all over senator rubio for repeating himself during a debate. now, in your book you say when i start boring myself to tears, know i am beginning to drive the message home. in other words, you think redundancy's a good thing. >> guest: yeah, i think -- i'm probably one of the few people in america that thought rubio was doing the right thing in thatub debate. [laughter] i think the, you know, good politics is e rep six. is repetition. and if you're trying to drive a message, you have to repeat it a lot. to make the point. i try to do that in meetings that we have with our colleagues. >> host: god knows. >> guest: well, one time is not enough, you know? you can always count on three-fourths not paying attention the first time. so if you're really trying to make point, repetition is a good thing. >> host: i want to ask you about a period of time and your emotions during that time. after threeti terms you were finally elected whip, the number two position in the senate. that was november 13, 2002. then a month later trent hospital9 went to strom thurmond's birthday party, and suddenly he had to resign as leader, a position you'd always wanted. youu would seem to be the logicl person to move up, but senator bill frist took the position. and then at the end of january, you have triple bypass surgery. so what was your range of emotions during that two and a half months about all those? >> guest: yeah. i think my feeling was that i probably never was going to have an opportunity to be the leader of my party in the senate because i was ten years older than bill frist. fortunately the health problem i had worked out fine. but i had doubts during that period. i hadt just been bypassed by somebody who was ten years younger than i am and had a significant health problem. is so, you know, i wondered if i would ever have an opportunity to have the job that i had clearly been hoping to have for quite a while. so it was a challenging period. but like other challenges i and others have -- i don't want to make my story seem all that unique -- if you just don't quit and just keep plucking, the chances are, you know, you'll get where you're headed. i mean, i always tell students that i spend a lot of time with the only way to fail in america is to quit or die, you know? and we all have speed bumps, we all have setbacks. are we defeated by them or do we just shake it off and keep on going. so i got my second chance. bill decided to leave the senate, and i got to be leader of the party like i wanted to be. but then there was another disappointment, it wasn't the majority leader. it wasas the minority leader. >> host: and you gave the blame for some of that to republican-on-republican violence. you talk in your book quite a bit about that, about the politics of futile gesture. >> guest: yeah. >> host: what do you mean by that? >> guest: well, it'd be something like why don't we shut down the governmentik to defund obamacare. that's a futile gesture. obama's in the white house. obviously, obama's not going to, not going to such a bill. not going to sign such a bill. the politics of futile gesture is a way of describing tactical maneuvers that have no chance of that only divide the party. and that has been a challenge. i think it's been a bigger challenge in the house of representatives than it has been in the senate. there are only a couple of people in the senate whohe have that kind of approach. but t been a challenge. -- it's been a challenge. and on the outside, you saw it with the actions of the senate conservatives fund. the we've dealt with that on the outside is to simply defeat them in the primaries, and then you don't have a nominee who comes into the senate, first of all, who wins, and with that kind of mentality thinking that our job only to throw stones every day and to never achieve anything. >> host: well, of course, one of the disadvantages of it is that the you'd -- message you'd like to report gets diluted. you have presidential candidates and each some republicans saying it's not. which makes it harder to elect a republican president and keep the majority. >> guest: yeah. and t not just about messaging. you know, we all want to do things forng our country. i mean,t no matter what our backgrounds, i think virtually every -- nott everybody but virtually everybody comes here wanting to actually accomplish things for our country. and you have to deal with the government you have. you know, barack obama, whether i like it or not, got elected. he's been there for eight years. and to suggest that we ought to spend 100% of our time simply fighting with him rather than trying to look for some of the things that we can agree on that would make progress for the country always struck me as absurd. >> host: why did you decide to write the book now? >> guest: well, i think it was becoming majority leader after all theseon years, you know? i called it the long game. it didn't happen overnight. i was certainly not an overnight sensation. and i thought it was a time in which the senate needed to be operated differently, that it was a pivot point for the senate, and i think that's the reason why i chose this particular time. >> host: if there were one law -- if you were the king and there were one law that you could pass, what would it be? >> guest: i think i would fix the entitlement eligibility problem. i think the one issue that can sink thety country is the unsustainable current -- the way medicare and social security are currently crafted is unsustainable. it's the one thing that could completely tank our country. >> host: senators have a weekly prayer breakfast on wednesday. we don't talk much about that, but tom daschleed said something that stuck in me mind, he reminded us, he said he often thinks that he wishes he had prized even more than he did the power he had when he had it. in other words, he was saying take advantage of this incredible, accidental power that you have. do you ever think about that? >> guest: yeah, i do. and, youe. know, all majorities are fleeting. and depending upon what the american people decide this november, i could be the minority leader in connection year. and the majority leader position does present if a real opportunity even in a body like the senate which is very difficult to make function. there arelt advantages to settig the agenda and what we call the right of first recognition to move the country in the direction you'd like to go. and so you just don't know how long that's going to last. you don't want to miss any opportunity to try to make the country better x you have to deal with the government that you have. i wish obama was not president, but he is. [laughter]r] >> host: we have about three or four minutes left. i want to give you a chance to answer a question that i get asked. that speech that senator kennedy got the 20 cosponsors for was about encouraging the teaching of american history in our schools so our children could grow up learning what it mean to be an american. and i think those teachers when theyth come on the floor early n the day when a senator can do thatha and they go to desks, and invariably one will ask me the question i want do you, which is my last question. they say, senator, what message would you like for us to take back to our students about the united states senate and the future of our country? >> guest: well, i think the senate has been the indispensable legislative body. because that's the place where things are sorted out, the place where only rarely does the majority get thingses exactly their own -- things exactly their own way. the place where stability can occur. and most people, obviously, don't think that. and in an era in which everybody wants instant gratification, if you're looking for instant gratification or perfection, the senate would not be ad good place for you. >> host: and at a time when many americans are not optimistic about our country's future, what would you want those teachers to tell their students about their future in thiss country? >> guest: well, look, i think because of our woeful ignorance of american history, we always thinkec the current period we're in is tougher than others. we've had nothing like the civil war period. weot haven't had a single instancing where a congressman from south carolina came over and almost beat to death a senator from massachusetts. america's had plenty of tough challenges; world wars, depressions. this is a great country. we're going to deal with whatever our current problems are and move on to another level. and i'm just as optimistic as i ever was that this generation is going to leaf behind a -- leave behind a better america than our parents left behind for us. well, that's an optimistic message from a kid who had polio, overcape it, set his sights to be in the united states senate, made it and became the majority heeder after after -- leader after about 50 years. chet atkins used to say in this life you have to be mighty careful where you aim, because you're likely to get there, and senator mitch mcconnell did. ing thank you very much for talking with me. >> guest: thank you. >> this program is available as a podcast. all "after words" programs can be viewed on our web site at booktv.org. >> here are some of the current best selling books according to news max. topping the list, in 100 bible verses that made america, robert morgan argues that the bible played an important role in america's founding. after that is npr host steve inskeep's imperfect union, a dual biography of 19th century political power couple jesse and john tremendous missouri that's -- fremont. that's followed by the novel, the trigger mechanism. then the, pastor and former southern baptist convention president james merritt offers his thoughts on the importance of character over reputation in "character still counts." and wrapping up our look at some of the best selling books according to newsmax is james man's look at the relationship between colin powell and dick cheney in "the great rift." some of these authors have appeared on tv, and you can watch them online at booktv.org. ♪ ♪ >> c-span, your unfiltered view of government. created by cable in 1979 and brought to you today by your television provider. >> and now on booktv, we're live with author and professor deirdre mccloskey. professor mccloskey's many books include "the rhetoric of economics," the bourgeois era and why liberalism works. >> host: deirdre mccloskey, in your most recent book, "why