Columbia university, and it is a great pleasure to welcome back our guests, coauthors irina boar began and andre sold to have who will be talking about this book just out called the compatriots. Irina and andrei are cofounders of [inaudible] authors of the red web previously, a history of russias internet, governance of the internet, and then also the excellent book the new nobility, which was on looking at Russian Security services. So this, i guess, is the third part of the trilogy [laughter] and were, were so excited that youre, that youre here with us today. The i think just a couple of issues. One is we are filming this, so just a note to the audience as you engage and ask your questions, well can can you to identify yourself well ask you to identify yourself, and everything here is on the record in terms of the discussion. And then the, two, just in terms of format well start off with some general questions that ill ask our cono, sir, and then well segment coauthors and then well segment into more of a q and a format. And, of course, there are copies of the book here which irina and andrei will happily sign for you after the event. Welcome back. Welcome to new york. I feel like this is the scene for so much of what is going on, but, irina, tell us a little bit about what motivated you to write this book at this particular point in time. Thank you very much, alex, for having us here. I have to say that you contributed a lot for the research for this book, because you participate in the conference on exile. Not on russian exile, just Central Asian exile and [inaudible] and i really use this time for research for our book. So maybe we would have lost a part of our research here in new york, so thank you very much. And it was very surprising decision for us to write the book, a new book on immigration because we always have been as far from this issue as only could be. And because no one from our family immigrated, including aunties, uncles and dozen of cousins, nobody. You know that alex told you that our two books, one of the russia security sources and another of the kremlin on the internet. And we didnt know what to do next because most of our journalistic career we have been covering politics, Security Services, and we also reported from the conflict zone. But we had nothing to do with immigration because is an issue thats left behind, the issue thats left in the past because, i dont know, because people borders got opened, and people could travel, could freely come into the country, and also they can, they can leave the country easily. But every year of course, reintroduce political integration of even 20 years ago when [inaudible] came to power and he started to expel people from the country, his political opponents. It was russian oligarchs who was in charge of russian independent media, tv channels and newspapers. And the first was with expelled into expelled from the country into asylum. But at the same time, we didnt see this issue as defining for the russian politics and for the Russian Security sources. But it get worse and worse. And two years ago it was found that we need to Say Something because the russian, because political exile, independent politicians, journalists and other people who could pose any dissent to the kremlin, they became so issue. And kremlin [inaudible] so massive to them. I dont know, it became, i dont know, it became very important for the russian psychology to understand the cup. And after the country. And after [inaudible] political opponents abroad, including spying, intimidation and each poisoning. After that it became a political factor, and it became, it transformed the Security Service or maybe forced them to remember old transition. And it also transformed political conscience in russia because people are so frightened and so panicked over all these matters including poison. And security sources are so, this is very brutal. And i dont know, so to get back to [inaudible] so we decided to start working on the book on immigration. Thats why we did. Its so interesting because the book itself is this absolutely intriguing mix of detailing some of the developments in postrevolution their russia with some of postrevolutionary russia. , and andree take us through what youve discovered, what are some of the similarities and differences in these two different eras of dealing with the exiled emigre issue. Call it an issue, or yeah. Yeah. Because we started finding out some surprising things. For instance, we have some strange contradiction here. On the one hand, the kremlin has been pushing people out of the country saying they pose no political threat, they are completely unimportant. And once these people come to the west, the kremlin gets upset. [inaudible] and we didnt get it. We didnt understand why these people all of who by no means the most popular politicians in the country, and we are talking about oligarchs or journalists, politicians, but till the most popular but still the most popular live [inaudible] but nevertheless, the kremlin obviously and visibly gets upset that a these people [inaudible] and we try thed tried to understand the roots of this obsession. And what we found out is that right from the beginning from the revolution, the kremlin was obsessed with the idea and with the memory that in 1917 a small bunch of people actually, emigres, political exiles, completely unimportant back then supported by foreign funding got back and took over this mighty russian empire. The most powerful, back then, political Security Service. And nobody could guarantee that this kind of thing couldnt happen again. Of course, we understand that very historical and many factors contributed to the revolution. And probably some people still believe and people we spoke to in the Security Services, they really believe that lenin was an agent of the german general staff. Of course we understand its not an explanation, but its a perception. Particularly in the kremlin. But once upon a time, a small group of people, exiles, could actually change the political regime in the country. And the problem here is that right from the beginning the methods used by and adopted by the Russian Security services were influenced by this perception, by the idea that nothing but the emigres pose the biggest political threat to political stability in the soviet union and later in russia. And they have some fascinating examples. For instance, of course, substantial was obsessed with trotzky, and he was obsessed with him even after he was killed. For instance, in january 1941 and back then the Second World War had started, and france was already invaded and only five months before the soviet union gets attacked by the germans. In january 1941s moscow center, headquarters of the russian intelligence, sent a secret cable to new york to the chief of the soviet intelligence station here urging him the intensify the struggle against [inaudible] so in the meddle of the war in the middle of the war, they still believed that a small group of people in new york could pose a substantial and fundamental challenge to the political regime. And unfortunately, very few things changed even after stalins death. And we describe it in the book that the methods and the ideas and perceptions of the Security Services are still there. They still believe that political exiles could actually pose some threat. Its really surprising because if you look at this history of the russian immigration, political immigration, of course, you can see that its actually could be, you know, an exposition of what could be done could not be done from the outside to political regime in a country like russia. And now in 2019 we sort of assess the effectiveness of the meds. And methods. And we can see the they tried almost anything. They sent bolsheviks, when they challenged to the west, they got them killed [inaudible] they engaged in propaganda. When the army got involved in military conflicts, for instance, spain, they spend soldiers there. When the war started, Second World War, is some of them took the side of the enemy and participated in the war fighting the soviet army. When the cold war started, again, they engaged in all kinds of from propaganda to espionage. And they try to change the Public Opinion here in the west. They stage if rallies, manifestations. And to be honest, almost nothing actually worked. It was a history of failures. The russian immigration became famous for becoming completely incapable of building any Political Organization. To much of despair of americans who actually believed in this idea like josh can not. Again, we have the story in the book. One day the russian immigration could actually produce something in terms of Political Organization gd which could actually produce [inaudible] can and to be honest, right until the end of soviet rule, nothing came out of it. Such a big and still is such a big figure for the russian dissident movement, once he started building his own organization, resistance international, actually it was a complete disaster. But only one thing actually worked. When the russian ares smuggled their books to the west, these books had a tremendousfect on the public here. Tremendous effect. The one thing which probably worked was books. We have stalins daughter, just a few examples. And thats actually the challenge. What happens now is, of course, we found ourselves in completely different situation because we have the borders open. And people could move freely out of the country and in the country. And only now we have this new phenomenon, we have the russians here in washington and london and european capitals [inaudible] and aspiring to have a say about the politics of these countries towards russia. It makes lot of americans very uncomfortable because it looks like interfere in a way. And, of course, it actually produces a completely hysterical reaction from the kremlin. So this is something new in addition to the books. And this is a new situation we have here. But the method the Russian SecurityServices Still use target these individuals and target individual organizations. Very much inspired by the previous examples and previous experiences of stalin and soviet intelligence. So interesting. So one of the fascinating things about the book is that a lot of, a lot of the actions and a lot of the networks and the intrigue takes place in our very city, new york. And so, irina, you mentioned that you undertook some research while you were here last time. Of id be curious, both of you, tell the us a little bit about new york as a setting. Why has it had this appeal for russian exiles in the past, what have been some of the networks and different activities here . And, you know, what does new york mean to, you know, the russian exile scene, if we can use that word . New york is quite surprising place talking about the russian immigration back in 20s and 30s because Everybody Knows that after the revolution expect civil war, russian immigrated to paris, to istanbul, to europe but not to new york because [inaudible] not to the United States because it was too long way from russia. And, but when the [inaudible] started. [inaudible] on Russian White immigration, it was the primary goal for the Security Services at time. They started operating extensively in this area and us p tan bull at the same time in the late 20s when stalin expelled trotzky from the country, trotzky two emigrated to europe, and then he got to mexico. But a lot of his supporters was in new york and in the United States because russian immigrants who emigrated not because of it wasnt the white immigration it was people who immigrated because the policy to the jews in russia. And they came to new york, and they got sympathizers of the Russian Revolution. And some of them were stalinists, but a lot of them were [inaudible] and when trotzky came to mexico, a lot of people, a lot of communists, the headquarter of their communist party of the United States was here in new york. It was a beautiful old [inaudible] in downtown, and you see this beautiful building. And the whole communist party of the United States bought the building, and they, there was a very intensive activity inside this building and also across the country because these people, the communist party part of communist international which is organization which was, that united all communist party across the world. They became inside there. Inside the United States there was kind of a side in the secret police have recruited they have a lot of agents inside. With the grandfather. His grandfather. And sometimes with the drone influence and activity. It was over the, ten. He have never been a real agent. He was operating like a real agent. That is for the secret police activity. Not far from there. They have a place everybody has agents in the enemies. What kind of things does that say. You can see all of the buildings. As the headquarters. From the common part of the United States. Maybe the question is in russia everything is very high arc gill. The reason is with the resolution. They did not want to give the Russian Embassy in washington. But he wanted to have some sort of compromise. To open an office in new york to help or represent the sort of interest in the United States. The office was used for propaganda. A kicked out. But that actually has an area of the intelligence agencies. The main station in the United States was always here in new york. You have some stations there too. This was the center of the activities. They have the agape headquarters in new york. It has elevated the state in terms of the officer stationed here in new york. Many of the Political Organizations of the that russian immigration. They moved to new york. They see what might happen to them after the war. And what might happen to them. They moved the headquarters for new york. They also moved to new york. You got the mix of the southwest and second here in new york trying to build some Political Organizations. Mostly it was a big disaster. And maybe just one more question before we throw it out. What i find really fascinated in some of your analysis is yes there is a lot of detail here about opposition activities and some of the barriers and challenges in challenges but there are also stories here about individuals who become wealthy or successful but they also maintain loyalty or at least try to maintain those contacts. The picture that emergent emerges here. It is much is much more complex than exiles from a authoritarian system. There is different kinds of people playing different kind of roles. Im wondering especially in accounts of controlling the media as one of these clinical things. What is the relationship between with immediate wars and they have become privatized. In concern about those living in exile. How does that issue involved. A very big part of the book. And it was a big question for us to be honest. For many years in the United States the politicians like george kennan. They thought at the end of the day when the soviet union would collapse they need to go and see and maybe help. The hope inside of russia. We can all build Something Like that. There is a special statement about that. They have some people that were getting back. They decided not to get back and it was a disaster. Some descendents of the first wave of immigration mostly, they sort of discovered that now because the count is open there is some new opportunities. They speak language they understand it. They can come from their knowledge of both worlds and they can open the gate between russia and the west. Its kind of an interesting thing. As part of the book they have the foreign investment. And then the second one with the russian money to the west. I also want to see in the country. This is a process by immigrants. I was a big scandal back then. This demonstrated the different generations of immigrants that walk together. And the descendents. They have immigrated after the resolution. Another part of the story. This different generation of russian immigration. For this process they calculated that brilliantly. We have these types of things. To open the gates american investments. Two russia and one of the brilliant guys. A descendent of immigration. He was so prominent that he understood that these guys actually could be really helpful not only in terms of money but to provide some good publicity he was killed a few years ago. Back then he actually believed that if the kremlin could actually invite them. That could be that could sustain the channel because he was russianamerican. For the channel that he called. There is no way they could actually put pressure on him. Unfortunately it did not work out this way and in a few years jordan was also expelled from that. Independent coverage. In 2002. Into there. Putin got angry. He said we need to get rid of these guys. Its interesting that its still a very big supporter of putin. And the progovernment media. Has days were numbered. I think it is a very good story to see how he has the role of his people. Lets go ahead and open it up for questions. Please wait for the microphone to come to you. In the mac coming towards you right now. I am with the center of global affairs. I was wondering. You start out Chapter Three talking about putin is very interested in controlling that. I was wondering how where the Russian Security forces using these organizations now. The thing is, you are absolutely right. Its a very interesting topic as we all know they have invested invested a lot. It has a very special meaning. And from the soviet union time for the immigrants that shoulder their loyalty. Of course we know that a lot of that builds up in the organizations all over the w