I am so happy youre here for this book educated this is one of the most extraordinary memoirs i have ever read and that made my experience. Thank you so much. Turning toward the house on the hillside tall shadow stiffly pushing to the currents my brother was testing whether a picture my brother with his steel toed boots on the highway below the school bus drives past without stopping. And more than any other we dont go to school but the government doesnt know about us to force us to go we dont have birth certificates we have no medical records. We were bored at home and never have seen a doctor or nurse. We have no School Records weve never set foot in a classroom when i was nine i will be issued a delayed certificate of birth at this moment according to the state of idaho and the federal government i do not exist. Of course i did provide load up with parents waiting for the sun to darken i spent my summers in the fields in the winter rotating supplies my family continues on unaffected. That is quite an opening. So tell me about a day in the life we had a farm which belonged to my grandfather. It was beautiful. There were wheat fields and we lived on the mountain it wasnt really big but it was beautifully named it came up out of the earth and formed a perfect spire i was told that when the snows began to melt there would be a body my dad called to the Indian Princess and then it was time to come back in with that exotic playground there was a lot of beauty of my childhood but it took me a long time to realize that it wasnt completely normal but it seemed very normal to me. My dad was opposed to those institutions that people take for granted like Public Education and that meant i was never allowed to go to school or to the doctor. It is the interplay of this environment that it seems like a magical place that i have heard you talk about this but there are two sides. My mother was an herbalist and then to have another side. Like my the time my brother put his leg on fire and we made the decision to treat at home because my dad did not believe in doctors or hospitals even Something Like the herbalism that could be scary when youre dealing with a real injury that could be scary when youre dealing with a real injury talk about your fathers philosophy attribute that more to your father than your mother. It is complicated. He had a theory sometimes i call that the illuminati or the new world order because he believed they were trying to do harm. It was a conviction that he had. I wonder if they could pinpoint. That depends on which institution you are talking about and with that medical establishment you thought we were doing good that people were taking drugs or pharmaceuticals would damage your body. And also spiritually. And with that natural healing. And with Public Education and was brainwashed that would lead us away from god. Add brainwashing seems to be part of what he was talking about they are. It without illuminati of brainwashing but that is just outside her. I think he was worried we would go to a doctor or in some way compromise our health or spirituality then you have to do those exact things. And then this idea of the world to be otherworldly. And that also just included doctors. But most mormons they support education but they definitely believe in doctors and i found that interesting in your book that you wanted to make that clear. Because i think that right now the environment is so polarize people latch onto any story that they can. And with some irregular ideas and im not a medical professional so i dont know but to have that mental irregularity and in my mind that religious extremism so whatever was happening in his mind i dont think it is the other way around that all religious people are like this or all mormons are like this. And then just to make them into a caricature. And that is not the take away at all. So what is interesting and then to apply the worldview is to apply the first memory that is not a memory which was the ruby ridge massacre so can you talk about that believes that your father espoused quick. He did have these ideas about the government especially around the time of the ruby ridge incident and to be a little bit isolated but then there was a period where my dad said it could happen to anyone which really isnt completely irrational. With the water purifiers and emergency food but it is a very frightening thing that made me think that government would come at the moment. But the family lived in idaho and with the conflict over selling to an undercover atf agent and missing the court date and that the fbi and federal marshals found them and somehow there was a conflict the dog was shot than the agent was shot and it just got out of hand very quickly and ended up they were visiting his sons body they are surrounding the cabin and ultimately his wife was shot while holding the baby that was a horrendous story that is a version that i was told that my dad told us kind of having dreams where i would fall to the floor because there were snipers outside but he didnt tell me the end of the story so when i was 17 i was at university and i heard the end of the story how there was a Massive Public outcry and professional inquiries and every major newspaper cover the story. As a child was a government coming for us that i thought only we knew about but then i realized it wasnt covered up it was very much public. Especially that situation to identify with the family or that would be comforting to you. I think if i had an understanding how the institutions had responded. It wasnt like the government was in the holy evil force. That was in incident of abuse of power and a callous disregard of life. That there was a congressional report but in how the constitution works. That is interesting but to with the education thats what you call it uneducated but the education that you did learn with your family so tell me the values of what you learned as a child. My parents homeschooled of my older brothers were younger my mother did a pretty good job and by the time i came along shes a wife and a mother there wasnt a lot of schooling going on. Nothing like a lecture so the whole school that i received was pretty limited with formal education but what i did very value just the way that they raised us and they had a philosophy you can teach yourself anything better than somebody else and thats a principle i really agree with someone we talk about education in this country that learning is passive and there is not an individual component and with social it is a bit of propaganda and they need to be actively engaged in designing their own curriculum i hate the word disempower because i think it sounds like a cliche but a lot of people really take to heart to learn something you have to have a degree and a whole institution in place to teach it to you. I was not raised to think that so nice that i wanted to go to college at 16 it felt like something i could do not because i didnt have a former formal education but if algebra then i can get a book and learn it. I barely got through but i really went in underprepared i had to raise my hand and ask what the holocaust was. That i was denying it but i had never heard of it before. But i think they had something there. And thats about making a person. Everybody should have that opportunity and that needs to be more active and more involved. How was the way you raise help you to write the book . Its not easy. I did not know how to write narrative i have not written word of narrative what i wrote this book ten years later after i sat in the classroom for the first time at 17 and i had dozens of academic writing but i did figure it out i know how to write prose which is very different so i sat down and said this is a skill that i want and what made the biggest difference for me the podcast which was amazing because writers come on and read stories of other great writers and it is an amazing curriculum but it worked for me. So i pursued it and i didnt have to spend a lot of time on curriculum that did not work for me which is why i think the curriculum you make for yourself is better than what people make for you. So when i started to write it i thought it was a short story. I did know it is short story was but i find them so helpful. Read a lot of Toni Morrison because she is genius. Read a ton of short stories i could go on and on there so many great writers but the ones that speak to you and there are some amazing writers and those that dont give me ideas about how to write but that is the beauty of control of how you learn. What we reading then i read a lot of religious books read the book more than the bible and a lot of 18th century by the founding mormon prophets that was the language. Its interesting when you go to school for the first time at 17 you go through this archaic style. I had no sense of style because thats what i was reading i think my professors were very bewildered why i sounded like 19th century. It took a while to give up that voice. Isnt that amazing the writing voice is different than your talking voice and you had to work on to speak that way i assume that is interesting. I think a lot of people do but they feel certain selfconsciousness and sometimes they become more formal i have noticed that people will word like establishment or words that you never use unless youre trying to sound intellectual. How long did it take you . So the first four months everything about was absolutely terrible. Are you being hard on yourself . Five. It was really bad. I was in a writing group which is i was lucky i did not think of myself as a writer i literally wanted to write the one book. When they said this is really terrible i said yes, i know. Im not a writer. Tell me how to make it better. That is a wonderful place because i had no personal thoughts at all i did not think it was a writer. So it was a great place. When did you start journaling . I had a couple at eight years old but then i got serious at ten and then i was very faithful. A lot of them were given to me by my grandmother and had pictures of jesus on them actually perk almost all of them. So for you sometimes it dont understand something until i write it down. I do think there was a bit of loneliness sometimes i detect i didnt have any friends actually there was another family in town that was like my family so occasionally i would see this one other girl but everyone else i never went to any of their houses and i was never invited as i was pretty isolated perk i had my siblings but so i could tell somebody all my stuff and thats one reason why other than that i dont know why stomach about your thankful now after having written the book. They were really helpful. Yes. You still journal now . I do. Yes. But going back to your childhood something that i did not recognize on my own was physical pain sometimes we scan our knee or hurt ourselves in the junkyard you have an accident so can you talk about that . My dad ran a junkyard and for whatever reason he did not have the bone in his head that would tell him this is dangerous. Even after somebody was hurt he would never understand how serious it was i think he thought everything that happened, happened for the best and we would be protected he did not believe in Safety Equipment to have safety harnesses or safety hats and i dont think its because he didnt care about her safety. I think he did but he just didnt understand how dangerous it was even after it happened freckle one example was i was about 14. I was filling up a bin of scrap metal and when its full and had to be picked up by a forklift with the extendable boom and dumped into the semi trailer. I said lets dump it and he wanted someone to go into the big bid in the trailer after he dumped it he thought it would be faster if i rode up in the bin and is that i will hold that level you could crawl out and be out the way of the falling meta metal. I was terrified but i was not a habit of disobeying my dad. He picked up the bin and as he turned to rotate a bit of scrap came loose with a jagged edge and pierced through my leg pitting me in place and i could not move he waves me to call out im trying to shout out i could not move but it was a really loud Diesel Engine and he could not hear me. So then he starts to raise it up and i know hes going to dump this and i am inside it its going through a meat grinder of 2000 pounds of falling scrap metal by disease it starts to fall it comes out of my leg i could follow myself over the edge i was hurt but i was okay i have myself on the trailer but i was first experienced anger that he let it happen after that i was ashamed. It seemed like a simple thing and i dont know why i couldnt do it. But what i was missing in that moment i knew he would never hurt me on purpose but i didnt have that information that there might be something going on in his head where he could value my safety but not be able to keep me safe. There might be an explanation besides its not my fault i know it wasnt my fault. It is so easy to internalize but i had to be much older to look back at that event and not be ashamed and not just where i was very angry at my father. How could you do this but now i feel like i have all the pieces and i can put it together to say hed never want me to get hurt but for whatever reason he was not able to understand the risks of the way he was doing things. I am blown away by the fact you are not angry. So many people are angry with their parents with transgressions but this is pretty major. And you dont seem to hold any anger. I think anger is important and it is a mechanism of the brain to keep us from going back to situations or people. I thank you need anger to get you out of these situations but once youre out and say im not sure you need it. I wonder if you can get rid of it and live a better life out of it if i still had my family and my life i would need my anger every day but for now i dont feel like i need it particularly and its been important for me to reclaim the beautiful parts of my childhood and to remember that yes, the backyard was frightening but it was also fun and yes my father let those things happen to me but would never have wanted that to happen and there were wonderful things about him, too. I think its a delicate balance because i would never want to take the good things about them and they im just going to only focus on the good and dismiss the bad things because you let yourself get hurt for you lets not get hurt but then you dont want to obsess over the bad either. I aspire to this idea of mental integrity which means that to me anyway it means no one to take from you the good but no one can obscure from you the bad and thats what i mean when i say it but i want to live in my own head want to have a grasp on the reality and dont consumed with anger the box of the wonderful things of a person but also to want to expose myself to risk by not recognizing there are limitations. That solve sounds extremely evolved. Have you come to this on your own or going to therapy given. I think i come to a lot of it on my own but i have gone to therapy. Therapy is helpful because it never feels like it is but thats the tragedy of it. But i do think it is because you satisfy the time to think about how you feel do you want to feel that way and i have spent time in therapy talking about how angry i feel and i also dont want to go back so whats the middle road . Was this catharsis or did it bring things back . It ended up being cathartic. I do not think it would be but it was because the one thing the bits i thought would be hard to write about were the more traumatic bits were not very hard to write about. I feel like i had before i started writing i reconciled with the bad things in my life and the danger of the scrapyard and i reconciled with that but when i had not reconciled with the beautiful things. With the mountain looks and the way my mother would laugh when she was canning peaches and the good things about my father and i think those were the things i loved about my child the most and those are the things i had lost and it was hard that was the hard thing was being all about those things that i never would have again and i think that ended up being the hardest thing to write about but i think in a way you think because it let me reclaim a bit of that in a strange way. I will never be able to really reclaim it but i weakened it in the other way. Was there the part that was hard to write the book that surprised you . A couple moments about my dad that were hard to write about and there were moments when my brother saved my life where we were on horses my horse went completely berserk he was on a horse that had never had a writer on it before but it never been written. My horse went into a fit and i got my foot caught in the saddle and was barking and running and on the hillside and it was a matter of time before i fell off and dragged and that was game over. Your head hits iraq and youre done. My brother somehow on this completely unbroken horse managed to catch hold of my horse and slow it down but this was the brother who was quite violent and very manipulative and controlling and who would at other times twist my wrist behind my back but had this wonderful side and i think what took me a long time as i said before is you cant to me it was tempting to say he is kind and can be sensitive and wonderful and i still think that but i dont want to use those things to dismiss the fact that he could be manipulative and violent. Lets talk about john but i was wondering if i was hard for me to talk about because you seem pretty open. Those are things i have reconciled with. There are points where i had to put on the book because it was hard to read and very violent and psychologically violent as well so its not just the physical violence but it was a psychological torture in some ways. I found the psychological i think people fixate on physical but to meet it was not the important part. I have this idea that all of these matter what abuse it is an assault on the mind because if you are going to abuse someone you have to invade their reality in order to distorted and convince him of two things convince them that what youre doing is not that bad and you normalize it and its rationalize it and other people thank you deserve it the second thing is easy to convince people up because people tend to internalize that guilt when they are hurting. The pricing is hard and my brother was pretty good with it. He had convinced me something cannot happen but happen to ms. Before and could convince me to a completely different interpretation of it and one example of that is when i was 17 i bought this man home, his name is charlie for thanks giving dinner and i think he felt the need to demonstrate his control over me in front of this person and so before the mail had started he grabbed me by my hair and called me pulled me down the hallway and stuck my head in the toilet. Later when it was all over he told me it had just been a game and that next time we were having fun i should really be sure to tell him if i was in any pain. I had no idea you are having time. I completely took their perspective on board one 100 so much so that i tried to convince charlie of it and he knew what he had seen but he also i thank you that reality