so that is one of the important ways we do it. the other way is a well-designed internship program and i would like to reference what doctor frederick said. we have one of the animating principles, we need to fill our equity promise to students so, long ago, american higher education began reaching out more broadly to create more diverse student bodies, then it occurred in the 90s we better support academic success but if you are just relying on kids using mom and dad and their professional networks, you are leaving all the talent on the table 1 of the animating features is the third leg of the promise, we help you to succeed and then help you bridge to the world of work and we spent $350,000 a year supporting students in internship. we have a set of core employers like the google model where there is a preexisting relationship between us. we work hard to make sure students of color are overrepresented. >> you talk to university people of elite institutions. we have to provide apprenticeship. and alternative ways of getting into the workforce and those kinds of investments were just starting to make and think about. i have a husband who was a brilliant student, he hated it, came to me and said i think i can get an apprenticeship as an electrician and he did, it took six years, a long apprenticeship, making a lot of money now and is very happy and very passionate about what he is doing but also a great reader. he spent a couple years in college. what we don't know is and we have a fundamental equity problem and all of us are working on that. >> we have a little bit of time left and i want to ask one question that is on top of mind to everyone who has a student with a very kindergartner or in postgrad. you coming from florida, what should we be doing to make our schools safer. >> we can start, intervening early on. looking at what scandinavian countries do, they have behavioral problems in kindergarten, they assign someone who sits with them and their family, working with them, if you look at parkland, at every stage of that man's life a teacher tried to intervene to get him into some kind of services but there are no seamless services and so it was hit and miss and at the end of the day we got a seriously deranged human being who caused unbelievable damage. mental health is one piece. we need to get of the guns was no other country on earth has assault weapons, doesn't have background checks, makes it easy to buy a gun. we are going to do a background check bill on the house side and i am sure we will pass it. i hope we get back to the assault weapons ban, i helped negotiate that in 94. we band assault weapons but we have too miniguns. we do not need to get rid of the second amendment. we can simultaneously manage and reduce the number of guns and who has access to guns and not mess around with hunter's. >> you come from a school in an urban setting. what keeps you awake at night on this question of school safety? >> we all have to be smart about the active shooter scenario, the natural disaster scenarios that are happening with greater frequency. i worry about that stuff and we drill for it. you can never be prepared, but we spend a lot of time on a variety of risk management topics. >> i will go in a different direction. what that we i would have said if i were to tell you something totally different. one of the things we do not do, we are very shy and apprehensive talking about our humanity. we are almost hesitant to bring up the issue of being nice. of intervening and giving some humanness to what we do and that worries me. we have students that are bright, they can create jobs but i still think the education system is a key part of where we need to stop and say there is a high price. a high price and value to being nice to someone. the reason i double down on that is in the social media age we hide behind our devices. we have a country that has normalized tweeting, which obviously the president does. we have all normalized it and we are doing the same things and no one is intervening. sometimes we see someone having trouble. we don't have good mental health care. i agree with all that. but there is a way to say let me be the one to intervene. >> i can't think of a better way to close except reminding people decency, something we need to instill in young people as well. thank you very much for being with us today. [applause] >> i am josh white, american desk editor at washington post and former education editor here as well. i'm delighted to have on stage with me, ryan craig, cofounder of university investment firm that focuses on global higher education and creating new pathways for education to employment. also doctor bob mcmahon in flint, michigan, and experiential learning based school with a focus on stem and business fields. and the senior vice president for academic affairs at montgomery college, the top community college in maryland that serves about 60,000 students each year. it is a new record. just about one third of about in the united states have a traditional four your college degree which means a lot of people don't. many of those graduates are not prepared to go to a specific job. many are underemployed, many are saddled with a lot of debt. and preparing the next generation of students for the jobs of tomorrow. before we begin, i want to remind the audience you can tweet your questions using hashtag post live. i want to start with mister craig. there is a problem and a lot of possibilities. what do you see as the biggest problem here? what are the chances of success? >> what gets most of the attention around i education is affordability. you can't miss it every week on the front page, student loan debt, $1.5 trillion, $40,000 per college graduate. it is a lot. the fact of the matter is if every graduate were entering into a $60,000 a year starting salary job we wouldn't have a problem. if it is a combination of affordability and employability, over the last decade we have seen a real crisis in employability. underemployment among college graduates north of 40% and a big reason for that is digitization of the economy both in substance and reform. college graduates simply aren't being prepared for the entry-level jobs employers are looking to fill. it is a major problem. >> there are pathways to success. you -- your university has for a long time focused on this issue of employability. can you talk a bit about what your university does? how it does it as white has been successful? >> it is an interesting story in american higher education. we are celebrating our centennial. we were founded 100 years ago. the centennial model we have, the future of education built a century ago. in a lot of ways we represent in practice what a lot of institutions, outlines aspirational goals for how to integrate practice and education. our institution, students, we have no summer holidays, we go 12 months a year. the curriculum is for to half years. the students when they join are split into two cohorts the go into a 12 week on 12 week off rotation from their freshman year and they spends 12 weeks in intense academic curriculum and 12 weeks in a professional placement in industry or government or laboratory that complements their professional goals and why the degree they are seeking so they are cooperative placements but not observational. they become employees of the organization. they have the same expectations and demands placed upon them as any other employee. they have the benefits a typical employee does, etc.. over the course of their for the half years, they advance and incorporate roles, in their academic ability. this creates a virtuous circle that is unprecedented in american higher education. it creates the whole individual. i like to say our employability of our students vacillates wildly between 99%, and 100% every year. i underscore the point you just made. we have the lowest default rates of any institution in the united states because when our students leave it is that combination of cost and the ability to address the debt at the centerpiece of a lot of this. >> that is fairly unique. the vast majority of colleges and universities, the job market in the world of employers, is career services and that is one out of dozens, often located on the periphery of campus on the evenings or weekends. only 50% of students in bachelors degree programs even partake of career services and when they do walk in are likely to meet someone who worked their whole career in career services as opposed to the industry there trying to get into. it is great if we all get jobs and career services but it doesn't work like that. colleges and universities don't see it is their responsibility together students jobs. they spout the old line, prepare you for your fifth job, not your first job. students know that if they don't get a good first job they are not going to get a good fifth job in today's economy. >> that is one of the things you are trying to address, the skills gap and the first job. talk a little bit about with the community college can do for a large community that is seeking work, success, in life. what programs are most successful and how do you do it? >> thank you for the opportunity. before i answer your question. often we are quick to conclude -- i want to say clearly it is still one of the best in the world and a lot of countries duplicate a lot of things we do successfully. one area they have not succeeded is the education system. we start from a safe place. we have a very strong system. we do have a couple challenges. and globalization, and changing demography is something to do things. and community college. and how education needs to be more successful. and more affordable, that is an issue and employability is there too. it would cost $6000. affordability as part of it. and you have three campuses, we are accessible. we are accessible through technology. strong online programs. and academically accessible too. if someone is not college ready. you need some gaps and those types of things, we do that very well and community colleges across the nation do that too. challenges the education system faces today, community colleges are doing that quite well. coming back to the gap issue, what we do at montgomery college, and technology economy. and the industry, and on that side, to go to montgomery college, it was offered, it was at a very affordable platform. there were thousands of cyber security jobs that are open in the maryland area so i know someone is talented, a workforce, at the same time people who are underemployed or unemployed, they get opportunities. biotechnology is the same area. have of students have their masters degrees. but they don't have the skills to be employed in the technology system we have in the united states in this area. we create programs working very closely with those areas so there are several in data analysis, huge opportunity especially in it and data science. there's lots of opportunities on that. another country had of us. and the premier education system, the community college system is uniquely american. we need to look at that. >> we are looking at experiential learning. and autonomous vehicle program, crash test facility labs. talk about those programs and that was specifically focused on individual technology and autonomous vehicles. what do students get out of that? >> they get the world out of it. i say that because the university is founded on a different idea. to educate the whole person you have to create an equivalent. if you look at how we typically treat experiential learning in the united states. in a way that is subordinate to the classroom experience. you had this university or program, and to add an experiential component to it. we were going to take this on and send it. the kettering model is the opposite. these two things are equal in importance. one is not subordinate to the other. each informed the other. students spend as much time there as an application of the knowledge and support. that creates a virtuous circle that is bidirectional. the students experience in their cooperative place or experiential activities informs the classroom. how many universities, where a faculty member is teaching abstract, talking about both theories it turns around and faces the students and says you are working in a wind tunnel lab. do you use this in this way or do you have a way you have adapted this formalism to that particular occupation? we don't really use that. would you show us how that works and that closure of application and knowledge is explosive. >> that is so hard to do, different from the same lecture you have given for the last 20 years which is why these institutions are so exceptional. you've got millions of employers and post secondary institutions which how the med students and graduates with jobs? no single institution with a couple exceptions is capable of managing relationships with employers, the numbers of relationships and level of depth that needs to be managed. no employers really interested in doing that and over the last decade we've seen the emergence in hiring friction, the increased propensity of employers to say i'm not hiring anyone for this position unless they demonstrate they have already done it effectively. even for entry-level jobs we see all kinds of exterior requirements for jobs that should be entry-level like entry-level sales positions, we want three years experience with salesforce. that's crazy. >> how do you get experience? >> exactly. we are seeing the emergence of these intermediaries to stand between postsecondary education and we call them last mile training, bridging that last mile to the employer typically by training on digital skills and post secondary institutions that are not very good at training but they don't have the relationship with employers to understand what technology employers are looking for in these jobs. >> of employers are looking for markable skills and experience, what does that mean for the philosophy major? what does that mean for someone studying classical literature, english? >> i just published a book last year called faster and cheaper alternatives to college where i make the argument there are new faster and cheaper alternatives, boot camps and apprenticeship models, staffing models that incorporate training for providing new pathways to the good first jobs college graduates are having a hard time getting, probably not at your institutions but a lot of them. >> even for us, our largest academic department, even in a stem focused curriculum, one of the big new announcements recently, we opened a comprehensive set of music studios for students to go in and report. we have banneds forming because there is so much energy around the intersection with engineering and sciences. >> you can get student jobs and do all kinds of things and have room to do all that. the challenges we are seeing, too a few institutions doing a good job of that. we believe in the next 5-10 years, students will vote with their feet in favor of faster, cheaper alternatives. we are not saying we should have or would benefit from postsecondary education per capita, that would be economic suicide. what we are saying is we should think about how to consume post secondary education as we have done everything else. shouldn't have to be all-you-can-eat in one sitting but get what you need when you need it, if that means taking a faster and cheaper pathway, being in a job for a couple years with no debt, looking around and ascertaining what secondary or tertiary pathway, developed cognitive executive functions to be successful in the career, you should do that and the pathway will be available. alternately we need to develop those cognitive skills. >> community colleges are a critical part of that. we need to look at this as a spectrum and lifelong engagement. >> you talked about the concept of placement colleges, talk about that. >> i say this lovingly because my mother taught at community college for 30 years and i know many of them are run at academic institutions where the priority remains, degree programs and associate degree programs over employer and industry focused certificate program, associate degree programs are stepping stones, transfer colleges to four year institutions, and what we would like to see is the state community college system, it was employability rather than an academic model, and with their certificate programs and industry focuses, and what workforce works. >> what you think of that? >> that is important but we don't to do that. you have to learn how to think -- i assume mathematics and physics. philosophy, physics and math, not following it. other community colleges, allowing students to go from career programs to noncareer programs. lots of opportunities for these courses for certifications in other areas. they are going to the credit side. it is a large number of systems that do that. we heard the expression last mile. last mile becomes longer. and that is where it is. that can happen, this career science program, and a lot of healthcare workers, and it is apart from baby boomers, we became the first community college and the country to have a hospital, to the health sciences program in the hospital. those other models at montgomery college and a lot of other community colleges are doing. and and community colleges are doing those things quite well. and we make the spectrum equally proactive. >> if i'm a prospective student and looking for all these things, marketability, a job, success and future. >> after you are done, come see us. how do you decide what is going to be best for you given these warnings or concerns, how do you evaluate the faster avenue opportunities given what we now know? >> the data is not great. you don't have too many institutions outside the boot camps that are advertising 98%, $70,000 a year starting salary jobs so that is where we are headed. this combination of the crisis of affordability and employability called the employment imperative where they said they are enrolling the secondary institution for the purpose of getting a job and a good first job in particular so the data needs to take responsibility for helping students. not only preparing them but helping them into the workforce and getting good first jobs. >> this whole -- we have to take a strong look at this whole notion of skills development as when you talk to employers in graduate schools or professional schools and ask what they are looking for, and not so much, they are not as particular into domain knowledge, they recognize 3 quarters of the stuff, the material, the facts that a student learns when they are in school will be obsolete within a year of their graduation. what we need is a student who believes, they can figure it out and they have been given students that are resilient, students that know how to operate in organizations, who do not believe, it is not just about the acquisition but the application of knowledge. how you work within groups in order to advance the human condition. those are the school for traditional higher education sentence to say those are the other things which we will focus on them. the knowledge acquisition. we will let that happen at some indeterminate point. that is an artificial distinction and as the relationship of the consumer to higher education evolves and it is evolving but the demand will be evermore directed at that integration. >> that is all the time we have. i want to thank you for joining us for this great panel. the next hand off to my colleague, nick anderson posting the final count. [inaudible conversations] >> hello. thank you for being here, for joining us. my name is neck anderson, a higher education reporter at the post. i've been writing about universities and colleges for 7 years now and i'm pleased to be here with two experts from academia who will be talking with us about technology, globalization, higher education and the changes we see and the goals we might have to open up universities and classrooms to new perspectives. right on my left here is cynthia miller, a sociologist at the american university in washington dc and also director of the international training and education program she has a doctorate from the university of michigan it recently co-author of a book on this subject called seeing the world, how us universities make knowledge in a global era. we will talk about the ideas in that book. to her left is thomas nichols. tom is a professor of national security in newport, rhode island, also on the faculty of the harvard extension school and notably a 5-time jeopardy champion. he holds a bachelors degree from boston university and doctorate from georgetown and he's the recent author of a book that is somewhat on point to our subject, depth of expertise, the campaign against established knowledge and why it matters. thank you for being with us. i would like to open the discussion. i want to encourage those of you in the audience or i would like to begin by talking about technological changes, you see it in your classrooms. there has been -- technology changing the way professors relate to students. let's get real specific on the ground. how has your classroom changed? we will get your experiences, we can talk about pros and cons of this. >> thank you for having me. a pleasure to be here. i would say i teach pretty traditional seminar style graduate and undergraduate classes. when i first started teaching 15 years ago, the overhead projectors, i was using overhead slides and having to make those so there are simple ways to make my life easier with embedded video, with skype sessions, to show up on screen for 15 or 20 minutes. i rarely receive hard copies of papers anymore through portals or discussion portals they engaged with over the course of the week, most of their reading materials, most of their reading materials are online for them so there's a fluid engagement for them with online materials with tech in the classroom. when it comes to this, it is face-to-face. >> any distance-learning element? >> not in my class but i have to go to a conference in april and we will set up a zoom class for that. a couple of students will be with me in san francisco at the conference, the rest of the class will zoom in, it is not a hybrid classed but it is a way to not have to make up a class where we can do content and use the tech to get through that missed class. >> what about you? what is your experience with how technology has worked with students? >> my views do not represent the naval war college, one of the interesting ways technology changed the experience is the impact on students rather than what it has on me. i have been teaching for 30 years. getting students to walk into a brick and mortar library is really difficult and the serendipity of accidental discovery happens for them online rather than examining stats of books. it is a subtle difference but important. cynthia talked about getting papers handed in online and all papers -- i shouldn't say all but a lot of papers are automatically -- students are not drafting and typing, they are putting them on screen, they look good and that is writing and editing skills. >> it created more work for you. >> having the papers in front of me on screen creates less work. i find i type faster than i write so i put more comments on paper than i used to than when i scrawled them with my dreaded red pen. it is open to a lot more possibility for information. it is a great thing for example. i'm a technophile. i'm not resisting the influence of technology on a student but concerned about it. students will not just settle for what is on the syllabus. there is a serendipity of a different kind, where they start looking online. i lose control over that process and you took me back with overheads, with overhead slides, so they -- i have been teaching long enough, my hands are covered with chalk. that is an improvement, i use embedded video, i use links that are live, and there is something i would like you to see as i pulled it up out of this vast repository. >> do you have a distant element? >> the naval war college has its own distance program. that is a separate issue. the harvard extension school, the effect of distance education of what i do for 15 years has been profound. and it is the way the world is now. there are good and bad aspects of that. and i want them where i can take their temperature, see their facial expressions and i find the distant element adds a challenge that maybe in some ways makes me a better teacher or conscientious teacher but it is a level of challenge i have to overcome. >> a lot of people in the higher indication world were thinking a few years ago that the distant element through technology was going to change things, somehow universities would be democratized and transformed by opening up technology and bringing professors such as yourself to far-flung places. do you feel that promise is still out there and viable? are you a fan of that idea or a skeptic? >> i'm a fan of the idea, it is largely an unrealized potential to democratize knowledge, to o programs for 18 months, a 200% increase in the masters program where we have those programs. it is 26% of graduate students now enrolled in online programs. it may not have changed my teaching that month -- i think we acknowledged there are large numbers of students who are learning this way, it has radically, not radically but significantly diversified the online population is more diverse than the traditional population. those statistics, is that bearing out nationally? it has yet to be proven. working parents, people who are constrained on time, can't physically get to campus, veterans, for whom online spaces create more access. >> you're a bit skeptical. let's talk about nukes for a minute. the notion of massive online courses, it was free and now there are small charges people face sometimes, but massive was the idea that somehow a professor would reach tens of thousands of people in this was going to be a good thing. you are not on board with that idea. why not? >> back to the conversation you were having with cynthia. we have to differentiate the technological optimism was always overblown about this. when these debates began in the 90s, we would lose sight of the technology which is open-ended. we lose sight of the limitations that at some point we are running up against the natural limitations of how human beings learn and technology can keep better but that won't change the way your brain is structured. when it comes to democratization of education, the idea was the world would be an open door. we need to differentiate between the student who can't get any education at all, and i first noticed i was teaching a course on cold war history and distance options made it possible for students in the former soviet bloc to join my class. couldn't come to the united states but someone says i live in poland, that is great. it made the class better and for that student there is no other way to get there. the problem with distance options is it puts a huge amount of response ability on the student to be incredibly disciplined and organized and students are not incredibly disciplined and organized. i'm here to give you breaking news about students. they are not incredibly disciplined and organized. we approach with the diligence that, as though you were under the guidance of a professor. one of the problems with distance courses is students say it is online. i was going to go to class but i get it online. then maybe they don't or they don't, the question goes by that they wanted to spare the class with. people in less developed countries or newly democratized countries, this is great for students who have to rely on a huge multidiscipline initiative when it is available to them, that encouraged some bad habits. >> i want to tap into the knowledge both of you expressed in your books recently. cynthia, yours on seeing the world, how they acknowledge in a global era, both of your books seem to me to be broadly dealing with a problem you see, potential limits we are putting on our knowledge. talk to me about the lessons you learned from writing that and how they might apply to the universities as you are seeing them. >> one of the things we learned in that book, a team of scholars at the research council over a long period of time. one of the things we found out in how they organize knowledge about the rest of the world, the world outside the us, social sciences systematically discourage graduate students from engaging in empirical research overseas, and the best way to secure a tenured track position is by working on -- there are lots of reasons. sociologists do that because they feel the tenure-track positions are secured through working on domestic issues, political scientists had other reasons and the economists working globally with universal models essentially. across the board, there was not deep contextual specialized knowledge the way when tom was trained and i was trained, there was a lot more resource, a lot more resources, funding going into graduate support for training overseas, those things were drying up. and discouraging students from doing it. the best way to get a job is a domestic issue. we were surprised, but the interviews were very clear. >> that is interesting because it raises the question, are universities paying lip service to globalization but actually not really -- >> one thing you find is tension between specialized knowledge and cosmopolitan citizens. a lot of push over the last we 10 years in universities have been the rising study abroad, short of one or two weeks. that can be learning experiences but they are geared more toward creating citizens can navigate public transportation worldwide than actually developing public knowledge that is rich and embedded in local -- >> not enough to buy a euro house. >> that is important. and that is two months. and you are talking a longer experience. >> your book was provocatively titled the death of expertise. i wonder, probably had a naughty ends in mind that was not just universities but talk to me about whether you see a death of expertise in universities too. >> universities where intellectuals have to bury their burden here, this is the point cynthia was making, universities have become the province of jargon, specialized theory rather than knowing theorizes, rather than knowers. in a lot of universities the term public intellectual is almost said with derision. you are not a real scholar if you are a public and delectable and you do something like we are doing right now. part of the problem with globalization and traveling, there was at least in political science, a strong attack on areas of special interest. the idea you could learn to speak indonesian and study the indonesian system, that is for saps. what matters is empirical, high-quality, scientifically testable data. people who knew everything about a particular model and nothing about indonesia. a gap started to develop between the ability of these academics to talk about their area and what the public needed to know. i still put most of the burden on the public because the public doesn't pay attention, they have short attention spans and would rather watch tv. >> they should play a greater role engaging the public. >> it is not fun. this is something in a pleasant environment like this is wonderful but giving a public lecture to the public, talking about something controversial, that can be very unpleasant. i would argue is intellectuals that is part of our obligation to society, to engage in those things. >> i want to ask about a trend we have been seeing lately the last couple years in international enrollment in the united states, the data we have been reporting from the institute of international education shows for these two years there's been a decline in the number of new international students coming to the united states. this is perhaps a result influenced by donald trump and the trump administration policies on visas and immigration. i wonder if you have concerns about this decline in international enrollment into the united states and if you have any theories on what might be causing it? >> i have some concerns. i'm a proponent of students and scholars but one of the things i would say is there is a maximum capacity we are always going to hit with in person exchanges. globally, something like 2% of students participating in some kind of in person face-to-face exchange connecting back to the tech issue. one thing that is underexplored in an exciting direction is the area of virtual exchange. president obama announced an initiative in 2015 to fund virtual exchange and under the erasmus initiative, takes high-quality, semester long courses and brings them together in rigorous ways. not just one week of public transportation. when we think about international exchange we have to think what is the point of it. we want rigorous cross-cultural deep engagement that helps people across boundaries and reduce polarization in this country and outside this country and ideally international exchange can do that, but i think it is not the only way to do it. i have concerns about it. there are other ways to achieve the same goals. >> any thoughts on the trends of inflow being reduced into the united states? >> i'm not known as someone who is ever in criticism of the president and his administration. i think at some point you reach a natural popping out level and i will say something counterintuitive, that there is a positive affect underlying this. when i was writing the depth -- the death of expertise, how many small colleges rebranded themselves as universities? in ways that made no sense, if you come from the academic world is a difference between college and university, very small colleges or state colleges, teachers colleges rebranding themselves as universities as though they had a particle collider. what i realized they were doing was rebranding to attract foreign students and i'm not sure, foreign students don't want to come to a college, they want a degree from the university and i'm not sure it is healthy to build programs at schools that are already on shaky academic ground primarily organized around drying in foreign money to hand out degrees. if that starts to settle back down, maybe i can get some courses, and that explosion of programs was unsustainable. and we are seeing that. >> that is a supply and demand issue -- >> we are social scientists, we don't have the data, going on the role of the anecdote counts as data. and we found this drop off before donald trump. >> the magic want questions. if you can wave the wind tomorrow to fix one thing in higher education, what would it be? >> easy, i'm signing approval form, and we are many generations where students are, in the seamlessness that their lives are outside that. i think i bought a house with my phone. we are technologically, to approve student forms, the kind of thing with life that exists outside campus, we could bring that tech and innovation to make sure everything flow more smoothly and more resilience for students. >> it is about cutting bureaucracy. >> bureaucracy, innovation, culture of change that will recognize the way we work on campus is so far removed from how our younger generation is living their lives. that causes frustration for them, failure to persist and all kinds of other anxieties. >> wave you want. >> i will end the highly contrarian argument into the virtualization and virtual programs and all that stuff, the one thing i would waive my wand and say, to the extent this is based on the idea everybody needs to go to college, i would stop saying that. we have propagandized multiple generations of young people into believing the only path in life is to go to college. if you can't go to a residence college you go to a business college and if you can do that you take some courses and we end up with people demographically who have had some college or not really a college experience. there are a lot of paths to happiness that don't involve college and we need to stop saying that. >> that is a controversial one but a subject for another discussion. we are out of time, this is great talk, thank you for being here. have a great day. [applause] >> live friday on the c-span networks, the annual march for life starts at noon eastern on c-span. the group repo action holds a new nationwide campaign for abortion access. the senate returns at 10:00 am for more debate on reopening the federal government. it in:30 on c-span3, a discussion about us troop withdrawal from syria. the group students for liberty, a libertarian group host an all-day event. >> saturday at 8:00 pm eastern on booktv, from the washington dc jail, the free minds book club monthly meeting. >> those causes were immediately to moment of carelessness or bad judgment, stupidity, consequences the last forever. a lot of times when we say we interfere, we are in the field so locked up maybe for a mistake or a decision to carry a badge, that is plain stupidity. there are consequences that last forever. we say, people have been here 20 years,

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