I was blown away by this. Reading it for a second time made my experience more profound. I want to die right in and ask you to read a bit. Ill let you take that. Turning toward toward the house on the hillside i see movements of a different kind, tall shadows for the current. My brothers are awake testing the weather. My mother at the stove hovering over brown pancakes. My father by the back door lacing his boots and threading his callous stance into welding gloves. On the highway below the school bus went past without stopping. Im only seven but i understand the suspect more than any other that makes my family different. We dont go to school. Dad worries the Government Forces to go but it cant. For my seven siblings dont have birth certificates. We dont have medical records or school records. When im nine ill be delighted certificate of birth. But at this moment i do not exist. Of course i did exist. I waited for the sun to darken a spent my summers bottling peaches when the world the men failed my family would move on affected. I want to start in idaho where this takes place. Can you tell me and you about what it was like as a 10yearold version of yourself. We had affirmed applying to my grandfather. It was beautiful. There is we fields and mountains. It was a big mountain but just beautifully made. It came up out of the earth and formed into a perfect spire. Id always been told the story that every spinning there would be an image of a womans body my dad called it and he had a story that the nomadic indians would look for her spine and its a sign that spring ended in winter was over and its a time for them to come back. The farm was a junkyard and so we played on it like a playground. Theres a lot of beauty in my childhood. It took me a long time to realize it wasnt completely normal. There were elements of it that were unusual. My dad was opposed to the institutions that most people take for granted. Public education, doctors and hospitals. That meant i was not allowed to go to school or the dr. I did have a birth certificate until i was nine years old. Its an interplay between this idyllic existence like youre running round free and almost a magical place. That there is the other side theres very much two sides to your childhood experience. The mountain was beautiful. Anything with one side had another. My mother was an herbalist a midwife. We would spend hours on the Mountain Gathering herbs. But the junkyard was a playground but we also got hurt quite a bit. Many injuries like the time my brother with his leg on fire and it was covered in birds we treated it at home because my father didnt believe in doctors or hospitals. The situation like that the herbals which was a wonderful thing it could be a bit scary when youre dealing with the real injury that you dont have morphine or things like that. Can we speak about your fathers philosophy . They did share in the philosophy but seems to me it came mostly from your father. I think was mostly coming from him. Sometimes i think was a spiritual dr. And sometimes he had the there that all these institutions have been infiltrated by some kind of wellmeaning organization. Think is a reason for opposing these things he believed they were trying to do us harm. He believed it. Can you pinpoint what he was afraid of really . From these different sources, where was the fear base . Guest it depends on which institution youre talking about. He was concerned about the medical establishment that they were not doing good. But he believes things people take, drugs would damage your body and the effects would last for years. They would damage you spiritually and you should use herbs. What she called gods pharmacy. He was worried Public Education would brainwash and lead us away from god. Hes a complicated person. Brainwashing seems to be a big part of what he was talking about here of you being brainwashed for the illuminati coming in, part of it is the fear of someone changing the path that he has set for his children, is that the fear, some of this outsider perspective . Guest think he was worried that we might go to a dr. Or compromise our health and spirituality. The path was there when you needed to do these exact things to stay in Good Standing with god and be a good person. I think that was a fear that you could get sucked into this world many people have that idea but for my father it included doctors you are mormon, but this is not a mormon perspective. Guest most mormons, almost all know they support education, most send their kids to school or believe in homeschool and they definitely believe in doctors and thinks. I found it interesting that you wanted to make that point. Guest right now the environment so polarized and people will latch onto any story to confirm their own preconception. Think my dad had some regular ideas and the way his mind worked i felt like maybe he had some mental irregularity. In my mind the religious extremism was a vehicle for that. Whatever was happening in his mind cause this. I dont want people to take the story and say all religious people like this are these people are different from us. From reading the book this is a for lance me. In many ways. That is not the take away at all. Whats interesting is the idea of people taking from whats going on in the news and applying it with a worldview. Theres an example that you called your first memory which is not a memory. Can talk about that role in shaping that fear based police. He did have these ideas about the government especially around the time of the ruby ridge incident. We werent so different from them in the way that we lived in be in isolated. When that happened to them my dad was quite worried it could happen to anyone. Its not completely irrational. I was about five when that happened we went into this time where we are canning a lot. We were preparing and had bags that if we needed to run and hide in the mountain we would have them. I would journal entry from a few years later when i had the spake and i documented pages of the heater for the emergency food and water. Fires and mosquito nets. Everything you need to live on the mountains. For me am not sure how long it went on for my dad but it live down in my mind is a frightening thing. It made me feel like the government could come at any moment. He never told us the end of the story. The weavers were family who lived in idaho. The way it began was that had to do with a conflict over a rifle that randy weaver had sold to an undercover atf agent. He missed the court date and then the federal marshals did some surveys and somehow theres a conflict where a dog was shot in an agent and then randy weaver. It got out of hand quickly. Randy weaver was shot agents run to the cabin and ultimately his wife, vicki was shot while holding their baby. It surrenders. That was the version i was told. I remember having dreams where we crawl around on the floor their snipers outside. Because he didnt come to the end of the story is 17 i was at university and heard the end of the story. Like there have been a Massive Public outcry and congressional inquiries in every major newspaper covered the story. When i was a child there was about how mean the government was in there going to come for us. But then i realized it was a terrible thing that happened but there were checks on it. Thats how democracy works. It wasnt kept a secret or covered up as a very much public outcry. Part of the fear of is a 5yearold its terrifying. You very much identified with that family do you feel like you were not alone and that knowledge wouldve been comforting to . If i had an understanding of how the institutions themselves responded, the government wasnt this holy, evil force and a callous disregard for human life i think that might be with the congressional report said. Thats a different idea of government that there is a free press. I didnt just learn this they learned about the roads slippery press. That changes the story. Host i want to go back to different stages of her education in this book. Lets talk about the education you learned with your family. Its not a traditional education but tell me some of the values and things he learned as a child that most people havent learn learned. Guest my older brothers were younger think my mother did a good job of homeschooling. By the time i came along she had seven kids, a midwife, there was not a lot of homeschooling going on. I never wrote an essay or took an exam nothing like a lecture. The homeschool i received was limited but theres something of value from my parents, just the way they raced us. They have a philosophy that you can teach yourself anything better than someone else can teach it to you. Its a principle i really agree with. I worried a lot we talked but education in this country, its passive and i think there should be an individual component to it, if its just social it is a bit propaganda. People need to feel actively engaged in designing their curriculum. At some level, hate the word to some power. But i think people have taken to heart that learned something you have to have a degree in an institution in place to teach it to you. Im grateful that i was raised not to think that. When i wanted to go to college at 16 it felt like something i could do. So if i need to learn algebra ill buy a book and learned. I didnt do amazing but i kept going. My parents took it too far and i arrived at university underprepared. People thought i was denying the fact that i had never heard about the holocaust before. But i think they had something there about people feeling ownership of what they learn. When you think of education people talk about it as a way to make money and get a job. I think its about making a person. Everyone should have the opportunity to participate in the making of their mind. People need to be more involved in their own education. Host how did the way you were raised help you write the book . Its not easy. Guest i did not know how to write narrative. I had not written a word of narrative. I had a phd because once i got to school i really committed. Ten years later i graduated with a phd. I knew academic writing by the but i did know how to write prose. Its the same principle, i sat down and thought this is a skill i want so how can i get it the thing for me that made a difference was the new york fiction podcast which is amazing. They have great writers commodity read stories of other great writers. More to the point, it was a curriculum that work for me so i can pursue it and didnt have to spend a lot of time using a curriculum that didnt work for me. Were there any books particularly helpful. When i started writing it i never read a short story. But i found them so helpful. I read a lot of books a lot of Toni Morrison because shes a genius and a ton of short stories. Theres so many great writers. You take the ones that speak to and theres some amazing writers that i enjoy but theyre nothing like i write and then there are some writers that too. Thats the beauty of having control over how you learn. What were you reading in your childhood . I wrote a lot of religious books. I read the book of mormon in the bible and a lot of 19th century speeches by the founding mormon prophets. Its interesting when he went to school for the first time you rode in the stilted style. Yes, that was i think a lot of my successors were very bewildered i took a while to get that voice out. Is an amazing the right invoices so different than the talking voice. You had to really work on it neednt speak in that way. Isnt it interesting that was the part. A lot of people feel a certain selfconsciousness about writing. And when you feel that you become more formal. Ive noticed it that people will use words like establishments instead of building or was that you would never use because i think they feel like they sound more intellectual or something. I had that but a bad case of it. Host how long did it take you to get that out . Guest i wrote the hoboken the year the first four months everything i wrote was terrible. Host are you being hard on yourself . Guest it was really bad. I took it to a writing group on send was lucky because i didnt think of myself as a writer. I was trying to learn to write. It wasnt part of my identity when they said this was terrible set i know. Of course it is. Im not a writer. Tell me how to make it better. That was a wonderful place kazan no personal feelings about it as all i literally never wrote a story before so is a great place. You journaled for a good portion, talk about the journals that you have. Couple journal entries when i say but i got serious about it at ten. I have a whole stack. Summer difference a lot given to me by my grandmother and they tend to have a picture of jesus on them. Almost all of them up to the age of 16. Other than their black. For me its about i dont think i understand something until i write it down, why were you doing it . I think there is a bit of loneliness. Sometimes i detect they didnt have any friends. There is another family who lived in my town but they didnt believe in doctors, all the kids my town i never went to their houses or was never invited. I have my siblings but i would write in this journal so i could tell someone my stuff. I think there is a processing element to it. Other than that i dont know why did it but i launch onto it. Do you still journal now . Was interesting to me going back to childhood was for me a big part of something i did not recognize on my own this physical pain, and childhood risk get her knee and you are in a junkyard, there is a part where you have an accident in the junkyard, can you talk about that . Guest my dad ran a junkyard and for whatever reason he did not have the bone in his head that would tell him this is a dangerous thing. Even after someone was heard he didnt always understand how serious it was. I think he thought everything that happened happen for the best and we would be protected. He didnt believe in safety equipment. We would build big buildings and didnt wear safety harnesses or safety hats. I dont think its because he didnt care about her safety, think he did but i dont think he understood how dangerous it was. There is one example when i was 14 i was filling up a bin of scrap metal. When it was full it had to be picked up by a forklift with an extendable boom than it had to be dumped into a massive semi trailer. I filled it up and said that stump it. He wanted someone to go into the trailer and settled the scrap after he dumped it. So he thought it would be faster if i wrote up in the bid and then set a hold that level and then you can crawl over to the cab where youll be out of the way the falling metal and everything will be great. I was terrified. But i got in the bin and as he was turning to go around for the trailer was a bit of scrap came loose and it had a jagged edge and pierced through my leg. I couldnt move. He had the bin that was level and waiting for me to crawl out. I was trying to shut out that i couldnt move but he couldnt hear me. So then he starts raising it up. I know hes gonna dump the been and ill be like going through a meat grinder. Luckily when it started to fall i was able to throw myself up over the side. I was injured but okay. I think i first experienced anger that dissipated quickly and then i felt ashamed. Seem like a simple thing and i didnt know why i couldnt do it. What i was missing as i knew my dad would never hurt me on purpose. They did not have the information that there might be something going on in his head or he could value my safety but not be able to keep me safe. There might be in a nation. I knew he would never hurt me but yet i got hurt. I think we experience events in it so easy to internalize gilts. I had to be older before i could look back and not be ashamed. Then there is a time i was just angry and now i feel like i have all of the pieces and can put it together and say he would never want me to be hurt but for whatever reason he was not able to understand the risk of what he was doing. Im blown away by the fact that youre not angry. So many are angry at their parents. This is a pretty major thing. You seem to not hold anger towards him. Guest i think anger is important. I think its a mechanism the brain uses program back into a situation. But there is a risk. If it takes over too much of your life you can be consuming. I am a strange from my parents in that circumstance is really hard that led to the outcome. After that happened i was full of rage. Every beautiful memory from a childhood turn to ride. I became a person who had no beautiful memories. Whose whole life was rage. Wonderful things about him. So i think it is a delicate balance because i would never want to take the good things about them and say i am only going to focus on the good and dismiss the bad because you let yourself get hurt or someone else. But you dont want to obsess over the bad either. So theres this kind of mental integrity which just means to me no one can take away from me but good but no one can obscure the bad. So i just want to live in my own head and have a grasp on that reality as it is and i dont want to get consumed with anger but i dont want to expose myself to risk. This sounds extremely evolved. Are you in therapy or have you come to this on your own . Guest i had to come to it on my own, but ive done a lot of therapy. Therapy is really helpful. It never feels like it is, its never feels hopeful that it is because you set aside the time to think about how you feel and i spent a lot of time in therapy thinking about how angry i feel. Being cathartic i didnt think it would be, but it was because for one thing it would be hard to write about which was more traumatic. I feel like before i started writing i reconciled with the bad things in my life. I had a violent older brother and feel like i kind of reconciled in that. But i havent reconciled or the beautiful things, the way the mountain books, my mother would laugh for the good things about my father and about my older brother. I think those were the things i loved about my childhood of the most. And it was horrid, that was the hardest thing being close to these things i was never going to have again and that ended up being the hardest thing to write about what a good thing because it let me reclaim a bit of that in a strange way. Host is there anything that was particularly hard to write that surprised you . Guest there were a couple of moments about my dad that were hard to write about and where my brother saved my life. I was on a horse that went completely deserved and he was on one that had never had a writer before. I got my foot caught in the saddle and it was on the hillside with ravines everywhere and it was a matter of time before i fell off and was dragged. My brother somehow on this completely unbroken horse slowed it down and this was the brother who was quite violent and manipulative and controlling and bloated at other times twist may rest behind my back and call me a whore. It was always tempting to say he is kind and can be wonderful. I still think that but i dont want to use those things to dismiss the fact he can be manipulative, cruel and even violent. Host i was wondering if it was hard for you to talk about. Host i had to put down the book because it was hard to read, psychologically violent as well. I found the psychologically think people tried not to do witthephysical very much. If you are going to distort it and convince them