Turning towards our house on the hillside. My brothers are awake testing the weather i imagine my mother at the stove. With the steel toed boots. On the highway below the school bus rolled past without stopping. Im only seven but i understand that it is this fact more than any other that makes my family different. We dont go to school. It doesnt know about us. Four of my parents dont had birth certificates. We have no medical records because we were born at home. We never seen a dr. Or nurse. I will be issued a delayed certificate of birth. I do not exist. I did exist id grown up preparing for the dates. For the men to drift. I spent my summers rotated supplies when the world of men failed my family would continue on unaffected. That was quite an opening. Can you tell me a little bit. Take me to a day in the life. For the 10yearold version of yourself. It was really beautiful. It wasnt a big mountain. And it formed into a really perfect for every spring when they begin to melt it would be the image of the womans body. He have the story that they would look for the sign. And look for her coming. It was the junkyard. And they played in it. It was very exotic. There was a lot of beauty in my childhood. There was not completely normal. And now im older and i could see. There were elements that were probably unusual. Anything to do with the government. And what that meant that i was never allowed to go to school or to the dr. And i didnt have a birth certificate until i was nine years old. It was a interplay between this. Running around kind of free in this environment it seems very foreign to me as a city kid. Ive heard you talk about this. There is the other side. Very much two sides. The mountain was beautiful. Everything that had one side to it and another side to it. So they could turn in there. We also got her in it quite a bit. They made the decision to tweet treat it at home. In a situation like that even Something Like the herbalism. I attribute it to the father more than the mother. It seems to me. I think it was mostly coming from him. It was a spiritual document. He have the theory in Public Education. Some kinds of meeting. I think the reason for opposing these things is because he believes there is a lot of fear there. It depends on which institution its talking about. At the medical establishment. A lot of the things that people take would damage your body. And that would damage you spiritually as well. With Public Education he was worried that it was brainwashed. Kind of depends on that. I think everybody is complicated. The fear of you being brainwashed. In the illuminati coming in. Part of it is the fear of someone coming in and changing the path that he has set for his children. I think he was worried that we might go to a dr. And that we might in some ways comfort miser health. The path was narrow. In order to be a good person and all those things. I think thats a fear that you could get easily sucked into the world this idea of the world and the world being worldly. A lot of people have that idea. I think its a strong idea in a lot of religions. And for my dad that included doctors. This is not a mormon perspective. Almost all mormons they support education. And most of them want to send their kids to school. It was not representative of mormonism at all. He wanted to make that point i think. I think people will latch onto any story they can to confirm their own preconceptions about something. I think that my dad have some irregular ideas. I think the way his mind worked i felt like maybe he have some kind of mental irregularity and in my mind the religious extremism was a vehicle for that. I want people to take the story and say all religious people or mormons are like this. Its really easy for people that are different than you. That is not particular at all. They are taking from the culture thats going on in the news. There is an example of that that you called your first memory that is not a memory that is of that ruby ridge massacre. Especially around the time. Our family was not so different. We didnt go to school and all of that. That when that happened to them. There was a. Of time when it was not able to be there. I was about five and it happened. We were preparing and we got these bags if we need to run and hide in the mountains. From a few years later. I still have it and i documented it at all. Here for the emergency food and water purifiers and mosquito nets. All the things that you would need and i have them in this bag. Maybe it was a blimp but it left in my mind as is very frightening thing made me feel like the government could come at any moment and he never told us the end of the story. Can you tell a little bit about that story. They lived in idaho i believe it have to do with a conflict over a rifle. He missed a court date. They began to do some surveillance and somehow there was a conflict where a dog was shot and then an agent was shot. It ended up being that randy weaver was shot. That was a horrendous story. And that was the version that i was told. That my dad told us. Look what could happen. Look what could happen to us. He didnt really come to the end of the story. When i was 17 i was at university and then i heard the end of the story i heard how there had been this Massive Public outcry and there had been congressional inquiries in every major newspaper and became a different story. How frightening the government was and it was a secret think that that only we knew about. I then realized it was a terrible thing that happened but there were checks on that. It wasnt something that was kept a secret. There was Massive Public outcry. Has a 5yearold especially in the situation you are in. You very much identified with that family. The idea that you werent alone in that knowledge that it wouldve been comforting to you have you known about it that young. If i have an understanding of how the institutions had responded it wasnt like the government that was this holy evil force i think that might be with the congressional report on it. That is a very different idea of government. That there is a free press that people find out about things. I did not just learn the end of the story and what are the checks and balances on the system. It changes the way in the story the story felt quite a bit. Its really interesting to me. I want to go back to this. Either three phases of the education. Can you talk a little bit about the education that you learned with your family is not a traditional education. Tell me some of the values of things that you learned that most people probably had it i think my mother did a pretty decent job of homeschooling. There was not a lot of homeschool going on. I never read an essay from my mother. I never took an exam. There was never anything like a lecture or anything like that. In terms of formal education. There is one thing i really valued just the way that they raised us. They have have this philosophy and they would say it to us all the time. You can teacher self anything better than someone else can teach it to you. It is a principle i really agree with. When i talk about education in this country is become something that is very passive and individual component to it and not just a social component. I think people need to feed feel actively engaged. A lot of people have really taken to heart this idea. To learn something you have to a degree in a whole institution in place. I will buy a book and i will earn it. My parents took it too far. I once raised my hand in a class and ask what the holocaust was. I have never heard of it before. I wouldnt say this is the ideal education but i do think they have something there about people feeling ownership over what they learned because if you think of education i think a lot of people it was about making a person. People need to be more involved in our own education. I did not know how to write narrative. When i decided to write this book. I have really committed. I did not know how to write. I sat down. The thing was the biggest difference was the podcast. It was a curriculum that worked for me. So i could pursue it. I did have to pursue a time. I think everybody is different. I think thats why that curriculum you make for yourself is always going to be better. When i started writing it i have never read a short story i never heard a short story. I found it so helpful. I wrote a lot of Toni Morrison because shes a genius. And then david means. I think you take the ones that speak to you and there is some amazing writers. They are nothing like i write. And they dont give me ideas of how to write. I think that is the beauty of having control over how you learn. What were you reading then. I read a lot of religious books. I read the bible and im read a lot of 19th century speeches the founding mormon prophets. That was a language i had felt at home and pretty quickly. When you went to school for the first time you wrote in this archaic style. That is what i had been reading. A lot of my professors were very bewildered. It took a while to kind of get that voice out. The writing voice is often so different than the talking voice. He have a really work on unit speak in that way that is the part that you really had to do that. They feel a certain selfconsciousness about writing and sometimes when we feel selfconscious we feel more formal. People will use words like establishment instead of the building. Words that you would never use because i think they feel somewhat intellectual. How long did it take you to get that kind of exercise back. I wrote the whole book in about a year. The first four months everything i wrote was absolutely terrible. Are you being hard on yourself it was really bad. I took it to a writing group once. I dont really think of myself as a writer. I was trying to learn to write because i wanted to write this one book. It was not a part of my identity. This is really terrible i said yeah i know. Of course it is. And just tell me to make it better. The ego was not there. There was no reason i should know how to do this. Ive literally never written a story before. It was a really great place. It was interesting to me that you journal. Talk a little bit about those journals that you have. But i really get serious about it. And then i was very faithful about it. Two or three stacks. A lot of them were given to me by my grandmother and they tend to be a picture of jesus on them. Then they just become black. Im a journal or as well. For me it was about i dont think i really understand something until i write it down. Why were you doing it. I think i have a bit of loneliness there. I detect i do not have a lot of friends. I would occasionally see this one other girl. But all the kids in our time i never went to any of their houses i was never invited. I have my siblings but i think i want friends. I think i was writing this journal so i could tell someone all my stuff. Theres probably a processing element to it. Really latched onto it. They were really helpful. Do you still journal now. A big part of something i didnt recognize my own. The threat of physical pain. You are in a junkyard and there is a part where you have an accident in the junkyard. I dont know why but for whatever reason he didnt have that thing in his head that would tell him he did not always understand and i think he kind of thought that everything happens for the best and that we were to be protected he didnt really believe in Safety Equipment it was a very dangerous place. I dont think its because he didnt care about our safety i think he did care about it i just dont think he understood how dangerous it was. There was one example of that when i was 14. I was filling up of been of scrap metal the idea was it have to be picked up by a forklift. I have to be taken over and dumped into the semi trailers. He wanted someone to go into the big bend and settle the scrapped after he dumped it. If i wrote up in the been and then uphold level with the trailer. Youll be out of the way of the falling metal. I was terrified i was not in the habit of disobeying my dad. And as he was turning to rotate around a bit of scrap just came loose and just pierced through my leg. It pinned me in place. I could not move. I was trained shout down to him that i couldnt move. He could hear me then he starts raising a its like going to a meat grinder. Luckily when it started fall the thing came out of my leg. I was able to throw myself over the side. I was injured but i was okay. I just remember at the time feeling anger that he let it happen. But it dissipated really quickly. I just felt kind of ashamed. It seems like a simple thing and i didnt know why you hadnt been able to do it. What i was missing in that moment i knew that my dad would never hurt me on purpose i did not have the information that there might be something going on it and said where he could value my safety but not be able to keep me safe. There might be an explanation besides this is my fault. I think as children we experience events in this way and its so easy to internalize it and that internalize gilts. I have to be much older before i could look back on the event and not feel ashamed about it and i think there was a time when i was just really angry at my father. And then now where i met as i feel like i have all the pieces. He was not able. Sometimes minor. This is a pretty major one. Not really hold any anger. I think there is a risk as well. The really hard things that happen. I became a person the whole life was rage. And i think you need anger to get you these situations but then once her out in the space. Im not sure you do need it. I kind of wonder if you do just get rid of it. I would need every day. Now i dont feel like you need it particularly. Its important for me to reclaim the beautiful parts of my childhood there was wonderful things about them too. And dismiss the bad things. No one can take the good. I wont have the grasp on the reality that is. I dont want to get consumed with anger. I also dont want to expose myself to risks by not recognizing their limitations. It sounds extremely involved. Ive have a lot of therapy. I have done a lot of therapy. I think its really helpful. And never feels helpful. You set aside this time to think about how you feel and do you want to feel that way. Ive spent a lot of time and therapy about how angry i feel and how i dont want to feel that way. So what is the middle road. Did it bring a lot of these things back. I did not think it would be. The danger of the scrapyard. The things about my father. In the good things about my older brother. Those were the things i had loved about my childhood the most it was hard actually. The hard thing. That ended up being the hardest thing to write about. But it let me reclaim a bit of that in a strange way. I have reclaimed in this other way. Was there one part of the book that was hard to write that surprised you . There are couple moments about my dad that were hard to write about. The moments when my brother saved my life. I was on a horse that went completely berserk. I have never been written. I got my foot caught in the saddle. And it was bucking and running. It was really just a matter of time before i fell off and was dragged. And thats pretty much game over. My brother somehow on this completely unbroken horse managed to catch a hold of my horse and slow it down. This is the brother who was quite violent. Very controlling who would at other times twist my wrist behind my back and call me a horror. What took me a long time as i said before he is kind. He can be really wonderful. I still think that. I dont want to use those things to dismiss the fact that it can be even violent. It seems pretty open. I think thats the thing i kind of reconciled with. Its very violent and also psychologically violent as well. It was psychological torture with him as well. I think people fixate on that. I have this idea that i think all of these no matter what kind of abuse it is its an assault on the mind. If you are going to abuse someone i think you have to invade their reality in order to distort it. It means you have to normalize it. And justify it. The other thing you have to do is that they deserve it. The second thing i think is pretty easy to convince themselves up. The first thing is hard. And my brother it was pretty good at it. One example of that when i was 17 i brought that young man home after things giving dinner i think my brother he felt some need to demonstrate his control over me. And so before the mill had even started he grabbed me by my hair and he shoved my have in the toilet and later when it was all over he told me it have just been a game next time we were having fun i should be able to tell him if i was having fun. I completely took that perspective 100 i actually tried to convince Charlie Everett he knew what he have seen i think you know that reality had no bearing on me. He could see how much under my brothers power i was. He tried to reason with me for a while and then didnt. I had been a university for a while. Going to university really help me learn how to hold onto my own ideas and give me the ability to say i disagree a few months later it happened again and my brother attacked me in a parking lot. He came into my room and he said im really sorry we were just having a good time i id i died i would hurt you. I wrote that i didnt know which version to believe but i wrote down my version. That i had been terrified that i had been in pain i wrote that in that moment if id been able i wouldve torn him apart. I have these two versions in my mind and i didnt in that moment necessarily say mine is writing his is wrong i did not know if he had experienced it as a game. I did not immediately see my reality to someone else is. I think it was the first time that my brother attempted to dominate me and at end of that process there were still two distinct mines present. Its almost like a testament like you are putting this down as your experience and there were times before that you include in your book where you are still engaging in what you call reality. You say things like he was so much nicer to me before the accident. The best friend before. And now hes mean. He was violent and abusive before the accident and its almost as if you are playing the game with yourself. High head provisos in my mind. He felt when he was working for my father. He was really serious head injury. He nearly died. I have revised when the accident took place we expected he might be violent after that accident. But i have somehow in my mind said it happened when i was really young. It was actually when i was writing a book that i got my own journal. How is this possible . It turned out that happened when i was much older. When i was 17. And that was i suddenly thought that does not explain any of it then. It had been going on for so much longer than that. That was hard. Even that night that things happened with charlie i have emails that i wrote to him that night saint he would never hurt me not after the head injury. I have a broken toe and my wrist was in the spring. I think its hard to underestimate how powerful that reality distortion is. Its not just the person who is experiencing it anybody that is living in proximity to these relationships is subject to the reality that goes on to justify it. You can actually say enabling that. I do wa