Transcripts For CSPAN2 Utah National Park Designation Part 1

Lee edwards chronicles his sixyear involvement in the conservative movement. I met joe mccarthy through my father was something of a confidant to him. He was a hail fellow will met. You could ask for more fun guy to be with. He was very serious about that. And he was he was also somebody who did not take advice. Consequently said things or did things that hurt the cause for some time. The House National Resource Committee on federal land held a hearing recently on a bill that would create a National Park out of lands that were previously part of the Grand Staircase monument. It was established by president clinton in 1986. It is downsized by president trump. I would ask you unanimous consent that mr. Stewart could be allowed to sit with the subcommittee and participate. Without objection. So ordered. Under Community Committee rule. They are limited to the chairman and chairman ranking majority member. It will allow them to help keep to their schedules. We are probably going to be interrupted about 1030. And with that we will begin with Opening Statements. They meet to consider hr 4568. Cosponsored by the entire investigation. The act of 19 06 provides of the president with the authority to designate National Monuments on federal lands containing the historic landmarks. The National Monuments be confined by the smallest area compatible with proper care and management congressman stevens ask whether could ever be used to lock up large areas of land like the first review reserve help. Certainly not. The object is entirely different. To preserve the old objects with special interests in the interest in the southwest while the Forest Reserve bill reserves the forest in the watercourses. They declare 1200 lakers acres around there as a Matter National monument. They declared without any consultation. His district in whose district these lands were donated. Indeed just one week before the announcement they were untrue and no such action was contemplated. They later learned that it was able to make future Resource Development impossible. It cost to you Top Public School systems hundreds of millions of dollars in future revenues deprived local families of highpaying local jobs. Let me put this in perspective. Hurricane harvey inflicted nearly 200 billion of damage when it slammed into texas this year. The lowend conservative estimate from the executive order is 223 billion. Justin lost economic activity. Hundred 76,000 acres of land. They point to a simple truth. No one person should have the authority to lock up millions of acres of land with the stroke of a pen. By giving the congress authority over public land. All voices will be heard. A decision affecting millions of acres of land is made. They expect their government to listen to those people most affected by local land use decisions and not just outofstate special Interest Groups and they have every right to demand that congress reassert its role over management of the public lands on their behalf. This bill seeks to right this wrong. Through open hearings debate and congressional action. It would create the six National Park in and the canyons National Park. Further it creates three new separate and distinct National Monuments. The escalantes Canyon National market. Finally the bill would create a Management Council comprise of local officials to draft and oversee a Management Plan for the new monuments in the National Park. We have the most distinguished panel of witnesses here to discuss this bill and im looking forward to their testimony and i now recognize the Ranking Member for her Opening Statement. Today we will hear testimony on hr 4558 the grand case enhancement act. To ratify the boundaries of three new and National Monuments recently designated and create a new National Park in southern utah. Under normal circumstances legislative to establish a new National Park would have brought a partisan support but the circumstances surrounding this bill in the proposed National Park are by no means normal. In 1986 president clinton designated the Grand Staircase National Monument. For 20 years communities around the monuments had grown diversified and thrived. This is a story we will hire the owner of willow canon outdoor. A Small Business to replace it with three disjointed small monuments. In the livelihood of many others in their community. President trump bases his actions something many people including myself believe is without Legal Authority on a review conducted by they have yet to see despite numerous requests. They received 2. 8 million in public comments. With all of the National Monuments intact. They ultimately advised the president to alter a number of existing National Monuments. This recommendation to eight National Monuments but as we will hear from our witness today secretary zinke refused to meet with many of the Small Business owners who live in the communities that depend on National Monuments and public lands. It is unfortunate that tax dollars wasted on the report justify the actions beyond the scope of the president s authority. Only congress has the authority to shrink or rescind National Monuments which is why last weeks proclamation some also questioned the timing of this bill introduced without maps and is in complete format just two days after the president made his proclamation. I had maps and exchanged patents with the state of utah that confirmed there was an agreement puts the whole effort in question. The reality is they had acted on numerous occasions. With the state and local governments. And 20 million is appropriated to purchase the mining claims. The panel does not include a witness from either the bureau of Land Management or math National Park services. Given the fact that it seeks to create a National Parks and will be managed by an unelected board primarily comprised of representatives of state and local government. Additionally the new National Park would have a purpose. Necessary and consistent with prior proceedings in the house. Hundreds of letters from local Community Organizations they will consider these concerns as we examine this bill. Without objection. The chair and now recognizes the chairman of the National Resources committee. I do have an Opening Statement but can we hear from congressman stewart first. They are pleased to recognize punishment Chris Stewart of utah. Thank you for letting me come and speak. To give you a moment to come speak to you that as extremely important the Grand Staircase. With the spoke spoke of the pen. Im pleased that my friend and my man that i greatly admire who was a governor and during this time will enlighten us on this episode and i think share some of his insights. That we were subject to. The federal government promised the monument would take a little way in. Over two decades later it has not been enough to academically sustain these communiques communities. He was forced to declare a state of emergency with rapidly inspired. Families could not stay in the county. And they cannot state because they were so few jobs left capable of sustaining a family. Its not able to sustain these communities. I support tourism. Im proud of my state. This is a matter of common sense. Naming a job that i can sustain a family on. How much do you pay your employees how much do you pay your waitresses and those who are making up beds and hotels. Not enough to raise a family. This threatens business. How is this endangering it. The intent here is to do exactly the opposite. They had been forced upon residents by a missed guided federal policy. Washington has a bad habit of drafting policies without giving local communities a seat at the table. I was reminded of some comments by elite in hollywood and corporate ceos who were being dishonest with people about this. They have never been to utah. Some of them cannot have a conversation with anyone i spent nearly five years meeting with local elected officials. With garfield and king county the key to success in this region is finding Creative Solutions that benefit while preserving our western culture. This act does that. It creates three new separate monuments and creates a management counsel let me take just a moment to explain this bill. It creates as i said National Monuments preserving over 1 million acres of federal land in utah while also allowing access for hunting and gaming in fishing. This is an unprecedented move. 93 percent of it is controlled by the federal government. Why would anyone object to giving at the local community of voice and how it is managed. This road is very historical and its only fitting that utah own and preserved in a manage this area. Lastly the legislation creates the sixth National Park. This new park will be a win for conservation and access in it will be a win for the local communities. It would increase tourism. While giving locals a voice in their own backyard. In addition the National Park provides Infrastructure Spending enhancing visitors experiences for such things as trails restrooms and roads. I love utah. I chose to live in utah because id love to hike and rock climb and ski and all of the things that we enjoy there. I want to preserve that. This bill gives us an opportunity to do that i truly as a winwin situation. And i urge my colleagues on ball sides of the aisle to support it. With that i yelled back. Seen and we thank then we thank you for your testimony. We will do a round of questions. And i will begin. Congressman stewart did you do say that 93 percent of the land in this county is held by the community. And what impact did they head on that 93 percent of that the land in the county. Can you imagine being a locally elected officials been responsible for those things. And having 93 percent of your tax base and taken out from underneath you. Its incredibly difficult for them. You will hear from them. It leaves them coming to washington dc and begging for help because itll have the authority or ability themselves to manage their affairs. Obviously local governments are getting no tax revenue from it. Yes there were. In utah we have a thriving timber industry. It has been decimated because some of the policies. The prospects of mineral department. It has been completely taken off the table because some of these policies. They were still be able to put two productive use. In this region. As i said it made it impossible. Even though they have this multiple use before that. The local Community Still manage in such a way that it was pristine enough to be added as a monument. They have managed this land very well. We need something in washington reduce dc to do it for them. They would consider what would happen to their community if the federal government suddenly took over 93 percent of the land area. That prevented these lands from being put to any kind of productive activity. You make a point. I emphasizes all the time. I feel like im standing up for the little guy. Perfume is out in the rural communities. We cant because our permits have been taken for us. They would rather meet where they are. In this process in taking the 93 percent of the land and essentially preventing at least those local communities were fully consulted by the federal government. There were hearings held. There was maximum input from the local community. I appreciate that sarcasm but that was not the case. It was one of the primary objectives we have to do this. If people felt like they have a voice if they felt like they have an opportunity to make their input and actually be hurt all they are asking for is give us a chance. Perhaps that is why that constitution gives to congress and not to the president. They would be done in the open. With full hearings. In full consultation with the local communities affected and ultimately voted upon by all of the representatives of the people. Not by a single individual with a stroke of a pen acting in secrecy and actually misleading the local representatives of the community of his ultimate intent. I wont repeat what you said. But i will do say to say thank you for saying it. In light of the fact that we are to be called for a vote. And we have a panel who has traveled a distance to be here. I will yield my kind. Thank you Ranking Member thank you for your service and your representation. The bill does not repeal any of the approximately 900,000 acres of wilderness study areas. There is 900. Within the original Grand Staircase. There was 900,000 acres in the study area. Will they be maintained. Does 900,000 acres. It codifies the president s action of last week some of them reside in the National Park. It does not repeal any wilderness. It is quite ambiguous about that. We would be happy to work with you. They are now wilderness study acres. Thats one of the misunderstandings. Some of the misunderstandings that they had regarding this is that the assumption that it repeals any protections. Thats just not true. This is still federally owned lands. They will now remain as wilderness study acres. And also there is good to be approximately 670 thousand acres of land that they open up the federal public land. These are the lands that are no longer there can open us up to oil potentially you are understanding that now we are good open these up to those. And the intention it would be for them to be managed like any other land. If there is no Gas Resources there and i dont think there is anyone who thinks there is. They would be subject to all of the same protections or any other federal land is. You are now opening up that. That is actually one of the things we want to do. Of course were trying to do that. As one of the things we are trying to do for the local community. To make the Resources Available to them. So they can have opportunities that have been taken from them. Thank you and i yelled back. Do any other members wish to avail themselves with the five minutes of questions. We thank them for bringing the bill to us. And participate in the subcommittee. I will ask our second panel of witnesses to come forward as a history teacher i just want to go through the history of the Grand Staircase. An interior department they told the president that monuments proposed by the president do not require that. That was a year before the clinton reelected there is a series of memos that went through asking president clinton to do something for the reelection campaign. In designation of a new monument would create a compelling reason 1992 he had finished third in utah. This is easy picking. That was the election year. Once again memos went through their and there was coming from ceq to the white house a letter that needed to be signed because it have to look as if the president initiated this. Not ceq so you could avoid compliance. If the alleged letter only asked for information about utah it looked biased. But as for a broader review there are more compelling areas for designation than utah parks. A week later and another memo they said these lands are not really endangered which is one of the criteria is for using the Antiquities Act. Then they also have another week later coming from omb another report seen the grand canyon Recreational Area because they may want to go into the canyon. The regions if the package ultimately doesnt seem aqua quit adequate. Theyre adding that later on to the package. They will be designated as a National Park. They once again sent another memo to the white house. In august of that same year. They want the time to work for western democrats. On september night news reports came leaking out in the Washington Post. No decision had been made. They once again said i can tell you no decision has been made with respect to this. In a phone call to senator bennett. They said zero no. We denied the news reports. They do not know what we are talking about. No decision has been made. That is how Grand Staircase was originally established. It was not necessary in need of protection. And it was added simply in a state that wasnt went to vote for clinton. The chair now recognizes the former governor of the state of utah. His come test today from selig city utah. Chairman bishop subcommittee. In a House National<\/a> Resource Committee<\/a> on federal land held a hearing recently on a bill that would create a National Park<\/a> out of lands that were previously part of the Grand Staircase<\/a> monument. It was established by president clinton in 1986. It is downsized by president trump. I would ask you unanimous consent that mr. Stewart could be allowed to sit with the subcommittee and participate. Without objection. So ordered. Under Community Committee<\/a> rule. They are limited to the chairman and chairman ranking majority member. It will allow them to help keep to their schedules. We are probably going to be interrupted about 1030. And with that we will begin with Opening Statement<\/a>s. They meet to consider hr 4568. Cosponsored by the entire investigation. The act of 19 06 provides of the president with the authority to designate National Monuments<\/a> on federal lands containing the historic landmarks. The National Monuments<\/a> be confined by the smallest area compatible with proper care and management congressman stevens ask whether could ever be used to lock up large areas of land like the first review reserve help. Certainly not. The object is entirely different. To preserve the old objects with special interests in the interest in the southwest while the Forest Reserve<\/a> bill reserves the forest in the watercourses. They declare 1200 lakers acres around there as a Matter National<\/a> monument. They declared without any consultation. His district in whose district these lands were donated. Indeed just one week before the announcement they were untrue and no such action was contemplated. They later learned that it was able to make future Resource Development<\/a> impossible. It cost to you Top Public School<\/a> systems hundreds of millions of dollars in future revenues deprived local families of highpaying local jobs. Let me put this in perspective. Hurricane harvey inflicted nearly 200 billion of damage when it slammed into texas this year. The lowend conservative estimate from the executive order is 223 billion. Justin lost economic activity. Hundred 76,000 acres of land. They point to a simple truth. No one person should have the authority to lock up millions of acres of land with the stroke of a pen. By giving the congress authority over public land. All voices will be heard. A decision affecting millions of acres of land is made. They expect their government to listen to those people most affected by local land use decisions and not just outofstate special Interest Groups<\/a> and they have every right to demand that congress reassert its role over management of the public lands on their behalf. This bill seeks to right this wrong. Through open hearings debate and congressional action. It would create the six National Park<\/a> in and the canyons National Park<\/a>. Further it creates three new separate and distinct National Monuments<\/a>. The escalantes Canyon National<\/a> market. Finally the bill would create a Management Council<\/a> comprise of local officials to draft and oversee a Management Plan<\/a> for the new monuments in the National Park<\/a>. We have the most distinguished panel of witnesses here to discuss this bill and im looking forward to their testimony and i now recognize the Ranking Member<\/a> for her Opening Statement<\/a>. Today we will hear testimony on hr 4558 the grand case enhancement act. To ratify the boundaries of three new and National Monuments<\/a> recently designated and create a new National Park<\/a> in southern utah. Under normal circumstances legislative to establish a new National Park<\/a> would have brought a partisan support but the circumstances surrounding this bill in the proposed National Park<\/a> are by no means normal. In 1986 president clinton designated the Grand Staircase<\/a> National Monument<\/a>. For 20 years communities around the monuments had grown diversified and thrived. This is a story we will hire the owner of willow canon outdoor. A Small Business<\/a> to replace it with three disjointed small monuments. In the livelihood of many others in their community. President trump bases his actions something many people including myself believe is without Legal Authority<\/a> on a review conducted by they have yet to see despite numerous requests. They received 2. 8 million in public comments. With all of the National Monuments<\/a> intact. They ultimately advised the president to alter a number of existing National Monuments<\/a>. This recommendation to eight National Monuments<\/a> but as we will hear from our witness today secretary zinke refused to meet with many of the Small Business<\/a> owners who live in the communities that depend on National Monuments<\/a> and public lands. It is unfortunate that tax dollars wasted on the report justify the actions beyond the scope of the president s authority. Only congress has the authority to shrink or rescind National Monuments<\/a> which is why last weeks proclamation some also questioned the timing of this bill introduced without maps and is in complete format just two days after the president made his proclamation. I had maps and exchanged patents with the state of utah that confirmed there was an agreement puts the whole effort in question. The reality is they had acted on numerous occasions. With the state and local governments. And 20 million is appropriated to purchase the mining claims. The panel does not include a witness from either the bureau of Land Management<\/a> or math National Park<\/a> services. Given the fact that it seeks to create a National Park<\/a>s and will be managed by an unelected board primarily comprised of representatives of state and local government. Additionally the new National Park<\/a> would have a purpose. Necessary and consistent with prior proceedings in the house. Hundreds of letters from local Community Organizations<\/a> they will consider these concerns as we examine this bill. Without objection. The chair and now recognizes the chairman of the National Resources<\/a> committee. I do have an Opening Statement<\/a> but can we hear from congressman stewart first. They are pleased to recognize punishment Chris Stewart<\/a> of utah. Thank you for letting me come and speak. To give you a moment to come speak to you that as extremely important the Grand Staircase<\/a>. With the spoke spoke of the pen. Im pleased that my friend and my man that i greatly admire who was a governor and during this time will enlighten us on this episode and i think share some of his insights. That we were subject to. The federal government promised the monument would take a little way in. Over two decades later it has not been enough to academically sustain these communiques communities. He was forced to declare a state of emergency with rapidly inspired. Families could not stay in the county. And they cannot state because they were so few jobs left capable of sustaining a family. Its not able to sustain these communities. I support tourism. Im proud of my state. This is a matter of common sense. Naming a job that i can sustain a family on. How much do you pay your employees how much do you pay your waitresses and those who are making up beds and hotels. Not enough to raise a family. This threatens business. How is this endangering it. The intent here is to do exactly the opposite. They had been forced upon residents by a missed guided federal policy. Washington has a bad habit of drafting policies without giving local communities a seat at the table. I was reminded of some comments by elite in hollywood and corporate ceos who were being dishonest with people about this. They have never been to utah. Some of them cannot have a conversation with anyone i spent nearly five years meeting with local elected officials. With garfield and king county the key to success in this region is finding Creative Solutions<\/a> that benefit while preserving our western culture. This act does that. It creates three new separate monuments and creates a management counsel let me take just a moment to explain this bill. It creates as i said National Monuments<\/a> preserving over 1 million acres of federal land in utah while also allowing access for hunting and gaming in fishing. This is an unprecedented move. 93 percent of it is controlled by the federal government. Why would anyone object to giving at the local community of voice and how it is managed. This road is very historical and its only fitting that utah own and preserved in a manage this area. Lastly the legislation creates the sixth National Park<\/a>. This new park will be a win for conservation and access in it will be a win for the local communities. It would increase tourism. While giving locals a voice in their own backyard. In addition the National Park<\/a> provides Infrastructure Spending<\/a> enhancing visitors experiences for such things as trails restrooms and roads. I love utah. I chose to live in utah because id love to hike and rock climb and ski and all of the things that we enjoy there. I want to preserve that. This bill gives us an opportunity to do that i truly as a winwin situation. And i urge my colleagues on ball sides of the aisle to support it. With that i yelled back. Seen and we thank then we thank you for your testimony. We will do a round of questions. And i will begin. Congressman stewart did you do say that 93 percent of the land in this county is held by the community. And what impact did they head on that 93 percent of that the land in the county. Can you imagine being a locally elected officials been responsible for those things. And having 93 percent of your tax base and taken out from underneath you. Its incredibly difficult for them. You will hear from them. It leaves them coming to washington dc and begging for help because itll have the authority or ability themselves to manage their affairs. Obviously local governments are getting no tax revenue from it. Yes there were. In utah we have a thriving timber industry. It has been decimated because some of the policies. The prospects of mineral department. It has been completely taken off the table because some of these policies. They were still be able to put two productive use. In this region. As i said it made it impossible. Even though they have this multiple use before that. The local Community Still<\/a> manage in such a way that it was pristine enough to be added as a monument. They have managed this land very well. We need something in washington reduce dc to do it for them. They would consider what would happen to their community if the federal government suddenly took over 93 percent of the land area. That prevented these lands from being put to any kind of productive activity. You make a point. I emphasizes all the time. I feel like im standing up for the little guy. Perfume is out in the rural communities. We cant because our permits have been taken for us. They would rather meet where they are. In this process in taking the 93 percent of the land and essentially preventing at least those local communities were fully consulted by the federal government. There were hearings held. There was maximum input from the local community. I appreciate that sarcasm but that was not the case. It was one of the primary objectives we have to do this. If people felt like they have a voice if they felt like they have an opportunity to make their input and actually be hurt all they are asking for is give us a chance. Perhaps that is why that constitution gives to congress and not to the president. They would be done in the open. With full hearings. In full consultation with the local communities affected and ultimately voted upon by all of the representatives of the people. Not by a single individual with a stroke of a pen acting in secrecy and actually misleading the local representatives of the community of his ultimate intent. I wont repeat what you said. But i will do say to say thank you for saying it. In light of the fact that we are to be called for a vote. And we have a panel who has traveled a distance to be here. I will yield my kind. Thank you Ranking Member<\/a> thank you for your service and your representation. The bill does not repeal any of the approximately 900,000 acres of wilderness study areas. There is 900. Within the original Grand Staircase<\/a>. There was 900,000 acres in the study area. Will they be maintained. Does 900,000 acres. It codifies the president s action of last week some of them reside in the National Park<\/a>. It does not repeal any wilderness. It is quite ambiguous about that. We would be happy to work with you. They are now wilderness study acres. Thats one of the misunderstandings. Some of the misunderstandings that they had regarding this is that the assumption that it repeals any protections. Thats just not true. This is still federally owned lands. They will now remain as wilderness study acres. And also there is good to be approximately 670 thousand acres of land that they open up the federal public land. These are the lands that are no longer there can open us up to oil potentially you are understanding that now we are good open these up to those. And the intention it would be for them to be managed like any other land. If there is no Gas Resources<\/a> there and i dont think there is anyone who thinks there is. They would be subject to all of the same protections or any other federal land is. You are now opening up that. That is actually one of the things we want to do. Of course were trying to do that. As one of the things we are trying to do for the local community. To make the Resources Available<\/a> to them. So they can have opportunities that have been taken from them. Thank you and i yelled back. Do any other members wish to avail themselves with the five minutes of questions. We thank them for bringing the bill to us. And participate in the subcommittee. I will ask our second panel of witnesses to come forward as a history teacher i just want to go through the history of the Grand Staircase<\/a>. An interior department they told the president that monuments proposed by the president do not require that. That was a year before the clinton reelected there is a series of memos that went through asking president clinton to do something for the reelection campaign. In designation of a new monument would create a compelling reason 1992 he had finished third in utah. This is easy picking. That was the election year. Once again memos went through their and there was coming from ceq to the white house a letter that needed to be signed because it have to look as if the president initiated this. Not ceq so you could avoid compliance. If the alleged letter only asked for information about utah it looked biased. But as for a broader review there are more compelling areas for designation than utah parks. A week later and another memo they said these lands are not really endangered which is one of the criteria is for using the Antiquities Act<\/a>. Then they also have another week later coming from omb another report seen the grand canyon Recreational Area<\/a> because they may want to go into the canyon. The regions if the package ultimately doesnt seem aqua quit adequate. Theyre adding that later on to the package. They will be designated as a National Park<\/a>. They once again sent another memo to the white house. In august of that same year. They want the time to work for western democrats. On september night news reports came leaking out in the Washington Post<\/a>. No decision had been made. They once again said i can tell you no decision has been made with respect to this. In a phone call to senator bennett. They said zero no. We denied the news reports. They do not know what we are talking about. No decision has been made. That is how Grand Staircase<\/a> was originally established. It was not necessary in need of protection. And it was added simply in a state that wasnt went to vote for clinton. The chair now recognizes the former governor of the state of utah. His come test today from selig city utah. Chairman bishop subcommittee. In a Ranking Member<\/a>. I want to thank you for the invitation to appear ive been asked to recount the history of the way in which the Grand Staircase<\/a> came forward at least from my perspective. It has been talked to. Was that in dead and south. It happened under wraps. It was done on the fly. There was no consultation done. With any state count d or local leaders. None. Worse. There was a deliberate effort. Secrecy was so vital a concern. Even as bleachers were being assembled. The obsessive secrecy was documented multiple times. Once in a letter from the interior department. I cant emphasize confidentiality too much if word leaks out it probably wont happen the need for secrecy was reinforced. She said to another white house a colleague that colleague that it once dated and im quoting here in the public release of information will probably foreclose the president s option to proceed. President clinton announced that on september the 18th 1996. The first reports came out 11 days earlier. Not from a public announcement and not from an announcement or an entry into the federal registry but a news leak that has been a reference in the Washington Post<\/a> i were crowded in my instant testimony. With members of the federal delegation and many others to every level of the executive branch. I was told by the secretary of interior directly to his department was not involved. And suggested that i call the white house which i did. I was told that they were not certain where the report would be. I ask for a meeting with the president of the chief of staff. I was finally granted one on september the 17th the day before the announcement. That the same time as i suggested the government of the United States<\/a> was denying the plan. At 1 58 a. M. In the morning on the day it was announced i finally and received a call from the president the president was gracious but he said to me i am just now beginning to review this matter a grand canyon in arizona and not in utah. Equal in size to the state of rhode island delaware and the district columbia combined. This is not the way the public land decisions should be made. In 1976 the nation made an important Public Policy<\/a> decision. The federal land policy act. It requires great deliberation and careful process determining how public lands should be used. Our system of government was ducted to prevent one person from having that much power. I like to assert three foundational issues. The president s order went way beyond that which was undesigned. The secrecy in the circumstances surrounding the monuments amounted to abuse of power process and protocol. So egregious that it is offensive to the concept of democracy itself. And finally thank you for your testimony. It comes to us today from utah. Welcome to the committee. My name is legal in pollock. Im also a lifetime resident of Garfield County<\/a>. One of the best places on this planet is Garfield County<\/a>. Im tired of all of the propaganda. Twentyone years of stories about the Grand Staircase<\/a> and its not true. Im glad you all are giving me an opportunity to come back here and tell the truth. And anybody today that doesnt believe what i have to say come on out. I will take you around. It was consumed by this process. Now Garfield County<\/a> to put this into perspective it is the size of connecticut. 93 percent of my countys federal lands. Three and half state and three and half private. From accounting perspective and if youve ever tried to do taxes and try to collect revenue just put that into perspective how hard it would be to manage the county. That is not the point. The point of the matter is there has been negative impacts Number One School<\/a> enrollment in the little town of s client. It was School Enrollment<\/a>. Congressman Stewart Brett<\/a> the state of emergency. We did not make that up. They did not do that. We did that at the request of the school district. The School Enrollment<\/a> numbers had dropped to 51 children. Seven through 12th grade everybody here that is listening knows how hard that would be to educate 51 children. Seven through 12th grade. So all of this economic benefit that has been talked about is true why did that School Enrollment<\/a> drop. All of the traditional uses of all that land. Probably 20 of that monument is visited. I dont doubt that. I applaud the fact that youre you are trying to do something with that 80 of a landmass like that. Come on out. A lot of it the roads had been closed. It is just range land like you will find anywhere in the western United States<\/a>. And im sorry people are not get a travel from all over the world to look at sage brush and regular blm range land. It was tied up for political reasons. It was tied up to stop coal mining. It was tied up to limit and prohibit the crazy traditional practices. As far as grazing goes. There has been a story that no au ms head been cut. Lets not true. Those au ms head been suspended that means you cant run them there. We have not been able to do actual range recovery projects. We havent been able to maintain the land. Now the western land 1934. That is what created this. It was created to do recovery projects. On all of this blm land that is still blm land monument there been no recovery projects. The water sources had dried up. That just doesnt hurt cattle it hurts the land. The western land has to be maintained. I know there are radical environmentalists. That say just leave it alone. That is why the land was created. So in closing i applaud this effort and i just ask you please look at all of the facts. Dont get wound up about political agendas. Just look at the facts. Thank you. Thank you members of the subcommittee for this opportunity to testify. Im the manager of Willow Canyon<\/a> outdoor management company. I am passionate about that like magnificent landscapes. I came to you to talk about our local economy and how it has supported it over the last 21 years. I will start with an excerpt of an oped piece i wrote as a review of our National Monument<\/a>. With my husband and two small children i settled and cannot in 1994. We purchased a dilapidated commercial property. On one side a shuttered garage created junk. It was an abandoned bakery. They stood like ghost. A heart of resting cars. We have it havent stripped our small building to its bones opening just in time for christmas. We underestimated the challenge of business in this world town. A long winter stretch into a long hard year. The following year 1996 president clinton evoked the Antiquities Act<\/a>. It was controversial at the time. And clearly remain so. I witnessed positive outcomes for our business our community and that visitors from around the world. Utahs outdoor recreation, provides 110 jobs that depend on protected lands. Jobs tied to the monument cant be outsourced. Our monument created diverse spectrum of revenue flows, extending beyond travel and tourism. It provides a extraordinary quality of life. People choose to retire in the area or keep a second home. Some are entrepreneurs or work remotely. This activity increased Property Values<\/a> as well as income. Visitation is exploding. A Million People<\/a> stopped in the Visitors Centers<\/a> last year, while countless others visited the monument independently. In the town of escalante, transient room taxes increased 24 yeartodate. The chamber about commerce representing boulder and escalante have been vocal about the monument. Businesses organized a rally that drew 400 citizens. The destruction of our monument threatens our economic future. The stroke of a pen reduced our monument by half, severed it into fragments and diluted protections. The utah delegation is bent on prioritizing grazing and mineral extraction. Were offered a National Park<\/a> and preserve. It is like no other National Park<\/a> we know. It doesnt respect the organic act of 1916. It enshrines grazing an mandates hunting, awkward mix with hikers and children. Four county commissioners and a state representative would dominate the management. This is unprecedented. Those who would manage the public land want a coal mine. The one proposed prior to the monument designation promised 360 double trailer trucks through canab every day. That would damage the tourism economy and quality of life. Meanwhile jobs in the Solar Industry<\/a> far outnumber those in coal. Nor will grazing save us. Cattle ranching has cultural significance in our community, it is marginal an enterprise in the high desert. That is why it is subsidized the agriculture represents only tiny portion of our regions economy. The review Comment Period<\/a> plainly shows, most utah citizens favor protection of their monuments. On the local level, bolder, es can escalante and kanab. Vast majority voiced support. To attack National Monuments<\/a> patters local economies and communities, ignores the will of the american people, and this land belongs to all americans. To codify the unraveling the Grand Staircase<\/a> Escalante National<\/a> monument is to disrespect that, throw in a National Park<\/a> is to apply lipstick. Thank you for your testimony. Our final witness is ms. Victory varela, managing director of utahs office of tourism, film and global branding from Salt Lake City<\/a>, utah. Welcome to the subcommittee. Good morning, chairman mcclintock, Ranking Member<\/a> hanna abuse sachs members of the sub committee. Im here to testify in support of hr 4558, establishing Escalante Canyon<\/a>s National Park<\/a> and preserve in southcentral utah. If you have been to utah you know that Mother Nature<\/a> played favorites, providing us the greatest snow on earth and spectacular red rocklandscapes. This proposed National Park<\/a> features winding slot canyons, other worldly sandstone domes and plateaus, and pinyon juniper woodland against shimmering pallets of red. Hr 4558 gives this area National Park<\/a> recognition that is long overdue. The bill protections these beautiful places in perpetuity, for some of the best exploration, and recreation on earth. The amenities offered in National Park<\/a>s including trails, signage, transportation access, parking and staff will enable us to properly welcome visitors from utah and all over the world. The designation will generate prosperity in an economicallydistressed region of our state. Tourism is big business in utah. Generating 8. 4 billion in spending last year, and creating more than 144,000 jobs. This created household relief of 1226. The mighty five promotion of our five National Park<\/a>s and the campaigns that followed are the most successful Tourism Marketing<\/a> campaigns in utah history, generating 6. 72 billion of economic benefits we want to provide Garfield County<\/a> and the surrounding region a larger share of this tourism prosperity and also provide a welcome mat for other Economic Development<\/a>, an attractive place is visit is also a more attractive place to work or relocate a business. National park designation is the way to accomplish these community goals. Escalante canyons National Park<\/a> and preserve would be located at the midpoint of one of most glorious roads on earth, the all american road scenic biway 12. Two of utahs National Park<\/a>s book end this scenic buy way. Bryce canyon to the southwest and capital reef to the northeast. This 122mile ribbon of road with a new National Park<\/a> in the middle will be unparalleled triangle of adventure and discovery in the heart of southcentral utah utahs economy ranks among the best the nation. We have silent recession in small communities. Young people flee towns where they grew up. They cant find work or community to sustain them. Governor gary herbert called on utahans to create 25,000 jobs in rural utah by 2020. Escalante canyons National Park<\/a> and preserve a missing puzzle piece to create many jobs. You may wonder why we arent promoting area. We have a limited number of destinations on our website. The lack of funding for blm staff, signage, visitor amenities, as simple as restrooms made it impractical to promote. Put simply, it is not safe for many visitors. National park status and all the amenities that come with it is an important tool for making the landscape more accessible. Establishing new National Park<\/a> will help demand for seasonal parks and overcrowding. It will spread out the love. Important to note that our National Park<\/a>s are severely underfunded. Utahs zion National Park<\/a> had 60 increase in visitation since 2010. Paired with a 23. 7 funding cut 3. 7 funding cut. That is not tenable. National park status will dramatically improve investment in the area it is essential National Park<\/a> funding also be restored. I know this is important to congressman stewart and others. I look forward to seeing longterm investment restored to protect National Park<\/a>s for generations to come. In summary investing in our landscapes for visitation is a path to jobs and vibrant communities. These communities deserve to have their children stay in the community where they were raised. The Escalante Canyon<\/a> National Park<\/a> and preserve is the breakthrough to make this happen. Thank you very much. I want to thank all the witnesses for their testimony. Normally we go in senority order on subcommittee but those lists are modified by the majority, minority depending on the circumstances. Well do that in this kiss. I will begin by recognizing mr. Stewart for five minutes. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Youre gracious for allowing me to do this thank you, members, giving me some time. I would like to hit couple things very quickly. Aware votes are coming. We need to go quickly. Miss hand address a couple questions. Are you a wear National Park<\/a>s allow for grazing . Yes i am. Do you know how many . I know there are some. About 20. Thank you. Im sorry, are you aware that some also support hunting . Im aware of park reserves do that, can he. Would you suggest we repeal those hunting and grazing rights in parks that allow for that . I would not necessarily but i think its a bold move why is this different . May i finish please . Yeah. I think its a bold move to suggest this park and presearch without the attending maps. It is difficult to comment tell you the truth on the specifics but i do know the area of calf creek. I hiked there. My son broke his foot at waterfalls. I remember it very well. The landscape there is very broken one, a very challenging terrain and so to imagine how you put hikers and hunters and trapping all in the same area is a bit of a challenge. I think the management will be difficult. I think it is possible. I mean i agree with you, some of this area is challenging but weve done it in other parks. I think we can certainly do it in this. I am glad you wouldnt suggest repealing where access is granted in the other parks. Your primary interest is in tourism, is that true . Your own personal financial interest . My personal financial interest is in tourism although we sell books and expresso at our store. Okay. Do you have any employees . I do. We employ seven people. And would you mind telling us how much you pay your employees . Our pay scale ranges from 10 to just over 20 an hour. We do have benefits. Health benefits for fulltime employees. We have a simple ira Retirement Plan<\/a> for them. They all earn sick and vacation time. Are any of them seasonal employees . No, err all permitted employees. 10 an hour that is roughly 20,000 a year. Can you raise a family on 20,000 a year . I would ask, i would turn that question back to you, and ask you to reflect on the minimum wage i think. We are trying to stay ahead of that. Okay. My point is, is that the claim is often made, and again i want to emphasize i support tourism. That is why we have vicki here. Were proud of tourism. We want you to do well. We want you to have a 100 employees but the reality is, as i stated in my Opening Statement<\/a>, it is very difficult to raise a family in a tourism industry. There are a few people who do really well. Owners, primarily. Many of them are seasonal. The vast majority of them are seasonal. The point is, that perception is often made, well if we tourism everything is great down there, these families do well. They dont, because the vast majority of them cant make a living in a tourism industry. So i would ask you, if i get to my question now, why would you object to fostering tourism through the creation of a National Park<\/a> . I want to say that, Outdoor Industry<\/a> is much bigger than retail shops like mine. In utah we have Companies Like<\/a> black diamond, climate, chum, ek, canyon gear, cool, and many others i dont have time to name. These are not retail jobs. These are manufacturing jobs and theyre not located in this area . Theyre not located in this area. Were talking about the local community. They do support those jobs, 110,000 jobs in utah. Were talking about the local community. Were talking about the local Community One<\/a> of the biggest problems our local Community Faces<\/a> is that the drive to sustain tourism has led many people in our community to transfer their properties from rental properties into Vacation Rental<\/a> properties, shortterm rentals. So there is a housing shortage in our area. And our Construction Business<\/a> is being driven by that, but it is not keeping up with the demand. So that is one of the problems that those wages i appreciate that. It will create a problem. I would like just to be clear. You support the tourism industry. Youre asking us to encourage that and yet you are opposing the creation of a National Park<\/a>, that true . I oppose the creation of a National Park<\/a> as described through this bill, undoubtedly. I will be very solid on that. And the reason is . The reason is, i feel that this codifies an inappropriate decision and one that puts at risk an economy that has come to rely over more than two decade on the Grand Staircase<\/a> Escalante National<\/a> monument. Were. Were trying to help you, create more tourism, not less. Thank you for yield. Next on the minoritys list is is gallego. Representative stewart, i gladly jump on my minimum wage increase bill if youre interested in minimum wage for our workers. To begin, a question for mr. Pollack. You are the chairman of the Garfield County<\/a> commission, is that correct . Yes, sir. And in your testimony you state local management is better than National Management<\/a> you can protect the resources better. Can you share with us what qualifications you believe or your Management Team<\/a> you believe has to manage a National Park<\/a> . Well, ill give you one example. And by the way, bryce canyon National Park<\/a>, when you talk about tourism, that is 35,000 acres. You still have a National Monument<\/a> basically thaw control. That is over a million acres. I want to make that point. Get back to your question, yeah get back to the question. I will give you one good example. A lot of this land needs to be recovered. Okay, sage grass, thats been a threatened species. Everybody knows about sage grouse. You know we cant do projects to recover the habitat for that species within the old boundaries of the monument . We can not do recovery projects. That is a classics example. About 100yard across the street basically were doing recovery projects on blm range land. Now, these projects that are happening on blm range land are happening in the same building that the monument is managed in. Theyre the same people. And as far as anything changing youre just changing the management from blm monument staff to blm Kanab Field Office<\/a> staff. So, for us to work with those folks, absolutely, i work with harry barber all the time on a local basis to do good recovery project. Thank you. Since youre familiar with the National Park<\/a> service im sure you agree with mps under the organic act does not manage for multiple uses . In fact this is the very thing railing against in your testimony or have railed against i should say. The mission is it protect wildlife resources protections of hr 5488 take as way. Move on to another question, youre telling us your county does not have the money to management land 2010 the 1996 monument boundaries, correct. Those are federal lands. We cant manage them. Theyre managed by the monument staff. You will have somehow the money staff once theyre outside that money . Were not going to manage them. We will not have input on the management. We work with them maybe i misunderstood you said earlier. Yeah you did. We work with the people that work for the blm. On a local level. That is government to government cooperation. If this bill moves forward the management will be turned over to who . Counties or under Management Council<\/a> system, is that correct. You can interrogate me all day long, but i will tell you just like this we manage those lands a lot better than they have been managed. So if this bill moves Forward Management<\/a> is turned over to the counties on management system, is that correct . Absolutely. How much does the county v to budget three monuments and National Park<\/a> unit . We would not be managing those lands, your blm, the governments blm and the park service would be managing them. The county wouldnt be managing the lands. That is like saying, do you want to transfer me that land . Do it right now. Transfer me that land and i will manage it, i will tax it. Management shall development and implement the comprehensive plan get back to the question. If youre talking about management. I have limited time, sir. Shall develop and implement the Management Plan<\/a> for escalante monument and presearch. What does that mean implement the Management Plan<\/a>s . That is the local management organization. Who owns the land . The bm does. If you want to manage the land, bear the cost, transfer them to Garfield County<\/a>. I will tax the lands. Were talking about text of the amendment. Were talking about reality here. The reality bureau of Land Management<\/a> is the ones that is going to bear the burden of the cost. Were moving on here. Sir, does garfield count receive tilt payments to research, rescue and other county service. Pennys in lou of taxes . Yes. Are you kidding me . That is, on that land it is actually pennies on payment. About 830,000 a year. 893,000. No roughly, give or take. So whats your point . Mr. Pollack, you claimed there is no local voice when it comes to the management of Grand Staircase<\/a> monument but isnt it true there is extensive local planning that went into the 1999 Management Plan<\/a> that did include or include creation of Monument Advisory Committee<\/a> that served on since . Im glad you brought that up. There was input but since then, okay where did the 12 heart beat rule come from. Do you understand that rule . Let me tell you what that rule is. On 64 of the Grand Staircase<\/a>, the old Grand Staircase<\/a> National Monument<\/a> you can have only have 12 horse, six horse heart beats and six cowboys. 64 . One time. That was never in the original plan. That was made up by the monument staff. Okay. 12 heartbeat rule. I am loathe to interrupt this. Unfortunately the gentlemans time expired. I yield back. Chairman bishop. This is frustrating. Let me try to get clarity talking about. Using same words but using it with different definitions. Mr. Pollack if there is Management Team<\/a>, you will come up with a Management Plan<\/a>, that is how it will be developed, correct . That is correct. Will you actually as county run that plan or will the blm run the plan . Blm will run the plan. Blm will fund the plan. Absolutely. So when youre talking about Management Plan<\/a> youre talking about coming up with the rules of engagement of how the plan, how the monument would be run, you wont actually be running it . The federal government will be running it . The federal government with will still be paying for it. Governor levitt, when this was originally established there were 377acres of land within the Grand Staircase<\/a> escalante monument. Were they covered in the proclamation that clinton did . Mr. Chairman, on the day before i pointed this out to president s chief of staff, who made it clear that that had not been contemplated. They were not aware of that. How long did it take you to work out a deal with the administration to try to manage or try to account for those acres were put in there by proclamation . It was matter of years. At least two years. Over two years. If this had been done by congressional action, or if this had been done by the Administration Working<\/a> with the state of utah, would you have solved these problems ahead of time . They certainly would have been solved in principle and would have happened much more quickly and much more efficiently. If this new monument is created, commissioner pollack, it will be right outside the town of escalante. Is escalante the town with greatest financial problems Going Forward<\/a> within your county . Yes, sir. Yes. So is can nab farther away from this new monument like escalante in your county. Kanab is down on the southern end of it. Vicki, let me ask you, when people do tourism in kanab, i go through there a lot, and i spent money. I go through lake powell. Kanab is the also closest droppoint to the north rim of the grand canyon. In your estimation if there is Economic Development<\/a> in kanab or related to Grand Staircase<\/a> or powell or some going to the grand canyon . A big part of kanab es tourism economy is also driven by zion National Park<\/a>. Certainly there would be some that would be related to this region but most of it would be the areas that youve highlighted as well as as zion National Park<\/a>. Miss hand, to be honest, you can pay your employees what you want to regardless what the minimum wage is. Pay them more money. Governor levitt, let me come back to you, is this designation of a National Monument<\/a>, Grand Staircase<\/a> is one and done or has this happened since that time as well . It has been used repeatedly over the course of time in many instances. This committee passed out a cap act which strikes to put established process that would guarranty, depending on the size, there would be public involvement before the designation, and, conversely, if youre going to rescind or downsize there would be public involvement in that as well. Do you think that is a wise use of our time and energies . I know of no other circumstance where public acts are created other than the Antiquities Act<\/a> where it is not required and where it is not carried out. The Antiquities Act<\/a> is unique. Its wrong, its not democratic, and it needs to change. Thank you. I would do one other thing for both, for the panel here. Often times as we have this miscommunication of what the term management actually meant, there is also a miscommunication of the difference between a National Park<\/a> and a National Monument<\/a>. They are different entities. There are special Interest Groups<\/a> out there trying to confuse that as if one is synonymous to the other. They are not. So as we continue talking about what a park system can do, what the blm can do through monument system can do, they are totally separate entities and should be recognized solely separate entities. Because i respect this subcommittee so much i used to chair it, i have 30 seconds left. I will yield it back. Thank you. Chair now recognizes mr. Low when thal. The reason were going out of order in large part because of flight schedules and other concerns. Mr. Lowenthal,. Thank you, mr. Chairman. This question is for governor leavitt. Thank the panelists coming all the way from utah to washington. I hope that is not calling us to vote. I want to understand, there have been a lot of issues raised about the initial legality and process under which president clinton had done this. There were questions that were, had been raised in hearing. I want to make clear that right after he issued the proclamation, executive order, we are aware in the 105th and 106th congress that congress ratified these new boundaries. It talked about buying out and provided resources to buy out the mineral interests. That governor, you signed the land exchanges in that between the state and the federal government pursuant to the federal law that was passed. That the federal courts have dismissed all claims about the legality, especially the 2004, the Federal District<\/a> court in Salt Lake City<\/a> upheld the legality of this and dismissed all claims, challenging the legality of the courts. And that has been upheld in the appeal courts also. So ply question to you is, if there were all these questions about legality and, what did president bush do about this . He followed. Why are we waiting all these years later . Congressman, i dont think for a minute that you would defend the level of secrecy that was used enacting policy policy in the context of the Grand Staircase<\/a>. Thank you. I realized you raised issues about that. Im talking about overall legality of this, and challenges in the courts, youre aware of and the signing at that we must assume and all the courts that there may have been problems in the process that you have raised but this was legally done under the Antiquities Act<\/a>. The congress has done it by ratifying those boundaries, and the courts have upheld it. Is that not so . That is all im saying. I acknowledge some eight years later, some eight years of litigation the court did include or did conclude that the president was within the his rights as the chief executive to use the Antiquities Act<\/a>. Thats right. Thus i have argued the Antiquities Act<\/a> ought to be changed. That may be true. I respect that opinion but there have been lots of issues thrown out here this was done for political reasons. It was not legal. He overextended his boundaries and courts have decided, the congress right after that have already said that is not true. Hard to argue this was not done for political purposes. That has become evident. Theyre politicians. Everything is done for political purposes. We appreciate that question and i grant you your right. But you asked, congressman, about the bush administration. Yes. The Antiquities Act<\/a> was used in the, in the bush administration. However there was substantial public process in the process, and i recognize today is not the day to talk about the Antiquities Act<\/a> but i can not, im here because this is Unfinished Business<\/a> for me. I am no longer a Public Servant<\/a> but this need to change and by the way those questions were raised in the federal court, and the ral courts did not say they were violated. The federal courts act as interpreting existing law. Im here arguing that bad outcomes come when things misuse appropriate language. This was bad policy and i think what the president recently did was enacting a separate policy, and this committee, by this hearing, will have exceeded in proportion any public process that went into the Grand Staircase<\/a>. I think courts will, well have to deal with that issue, you are right, whether in fact a president , subsequent president has the right to change previous actions in terms of massive change of land for both monuments and other federal lands and i think ttill im sure it will. My point, i think we would agree, in the halls of congress we ought not to be arguing so much about process and we ought to be arguing more about policy. President of the United States<\/a> in this case changed a policy. Now, this committee and congress agreed with the president and the courts agreed with the president. But this committee is now considering in a very public and organized, thoughtful way, whether or not lands ought to be used in a particular way. Thank you. Weve been called for votes. There are ten minutes remaining on that clock. That will give us time for one more round of questioning and that will be done by mr. Tipton. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Thank the panel for taking time to be here today. Take one issue with the comment on utah having best snow on earth. I think that is in colorado. Appreciate your book here and passion on tourism, important for the state of colorado as well. I have admired actually utahs program what you labeled as mighty five. Was there marketing advantage for you to be able to say we have this great portfolio of parks for you to be able to visit and would it enhance as i read congressman stewarts bill, create three more monuments, another National Park<\/a>s . You would be the mighty six and be adding monuments. Would you see that as a plusup in terms of being able to create Economic Development<\/a> for the communities that, probably need from what is sound like down in areas around kanab, over in escalante to be able to help those communities . Well, first of all, thank you for the question. I will continue the discussion with you afterward about the greatest snow on earth but to your question, yes, the Mighty Five Campaign<\/a> has been nationally recognized as a Breakthrough Campaign<\/a> that differentiated utah in a profound way. That has led to the most successful years of marketing and economic benefits that the state has ever experienced from tourism, and yes, having another National Park<\/a>, particularly in this remarkable area, would be a huge boon to our Economic Development<\/a> strategy. The elegance of this is that its a combination of this remarkable asset that has not really been accessible for many years, and, remarkable need in these local communities, that we have talked about that have so much economic distress, and ribbon of road, 122 miles of the most beautiful road on earth, that, the brilliance of proposing this National Park<\/a> right in the heart of that road gets me really energized about the marketing potential for the next wave of mighty five, whether it is mighty six and we have a lot of other ideas but i wont belabor right now. For clarity benefit of approaching it as congressman stewarts bill would each of these areas does have unique and drink characteristics that you would be able to individually market and collectively package in terms of promoting tourism and creating jobs . Yes, thats right. And to go to, i think, susan has made some very good points and i would like to respond to one of them which is you want every National Park<\/a> to have a unique offering to reflect the local community, its heritage, its history and the unique things that are available in that area and so some examples of, what we would highlight around this National Park<\/a> would be, certainly our dark skies. Utah has some of the best dark skies on earth. Were now being recognized for that. Dinosaur bones palentology. There is history of 90 million years of dinosaur bones. Some of the best findings on earth. Nativeamerican artifacts. Great mormon heritage. The hole in the rock road that goes through the, proposed National Park<\/a> is a road that mormon pioneers traveled to, as they established themselves in the area. Great, thank you. The point is, i want to make one more point here, that i think, to susans question it would be a front count that might be very accessible and perhaps a backcountry where it would be still be accessible to backpackers and other uses but thats the beauty of it, is being able to design exactly what this should be for this region. Great, thank you. Commissioner pollack, we heard many of the same comments that you have made, particularly with regards to sage grouse management, you know in the state of colorado as well. Can you maybe speak, i think, you provided clarity as to the chairman as well in terms of the actual roll that the commissioners would be able to play . Can you maybe describe a little bit of the distinct benefit that you would bring in terms of developing that plan . Absolutely. Actually, that is going to have to be a yes or no answer, and the rest will have to be in written response. For the record we would certainly appreciate it. Thank you, sir. Yes, sir. 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