>>. >> i want to welcome you all back to a wonderful saturday afternoon here. to let you know that this is our first signing of the month of october, the first of about 10 or 15 of them. if you look up on uc tuesday, wednesday and thursday of next week we have signing. the following week we have signings. even more coming. if you are not on the email list and you would like to get on the email list we would be more than happy to put you on there. but today we are very very happy to have doctor gerald horne with us today. c-span is also with us and i think you will talk about when they come up to the microphone -- this will all be filmed and broadcast. gerald is here to talk about to have his new books. storming the heavens. the book asserted that he just saw it today. [laughter] is published by our friends at black classic press and we are happy to see them to get into the book and the story the associated negro press is the other book you will be discussing. hopefully we will have him back in a couple of months. he usually comes back for the pan african film festival. he has more books coming out january i think and they are passing out flyers.as you know he is a professor of history at the university of houston. he received his law degree at cal state or university of california at berkeley and a phd in history which he has used extensive effect from columbia university. please welcome, dr. gerald horne. [applause] [inaudible] >> thank you very much introduction. it is always a pleasure to be in los angeles given more to be in eso won books. my favorite bookstore. [applause] this will be dcjcvu all over again. the last time that i was here, i was talking about this book, the counterrevolution 1776. at the time went down on my knees apologize to black people, indigenous people, progressive people the transfer shift?the incompetence, the mouth, the historians have inflicted on many of the struggles and not able to tell us how we cut to this point and wanted to make an introduction. now of course when i kneel, people think i'm emulating colin kaepernick and the national football league of athletes. and that, there hangs detailed because as was mentioned, a few months i will be back you're talking about two new books. one of them is on the apocalypse of plenty is in. this is up from 6068 to 7076 and a little thereafter. the new book starts in 1588 and it goes up to 1688. in other words deals with the original process that led to english colonial settlement and then the origins and roots of the united states and worth the roots and origins of slavery. i think to connect these two points, i have to stand up. [laughter] some of you might be wondering, these athletes started off protesting about police brutality. but somehow this all got hijacked and is supposedly about the national anthem and the flag and i think that the apparent conundrum could be easily explained. there is a saying that every strike is a dress rehearsal for revolution. and in the united states, any protest people as it is especially so for revolution. so therefore it is understandable if you accept an aphorism that protest has now been translated. as a critique of the national anthem and the flag. because our detractors see our protest as being ultimately, a threat to this current local configuration. given the facts as i have said in this book and will explain in more detail in the book i will talk about february. the fact is that black people and native americans, we are fighting for -- white man's country. to that extent, even if some of us might have forgotten the currently our antagonists have not forgotten. which is why when we have these protests about police brutality and police terror, they see something much deeper. and much more profound.and since they are correct, in a sense? having said that i want to get that off of my fest this book is also coming out into the break. on black americans and their relationship to tokyo. before the bombing of nagasaki in 1945. one of the most important global relationships that we had, a relationship that is not only cover, booker t. washington, marcus garvey, i think the relevance is given the current crisis in north korea and washington in june i was in washington d.c. and i went to bed not knowing berms but to wake up the next morning. because the 45th president is showing a threat and i thought the world was going to come to an end. and unfortunately that is not a joke.it is the way things are going. so i think that this book provides useful background and context not only with regard to the crisis with north korea but looming in larger crisis is with the people of china which many in washington and phosphate is being in the passing lane. and therefore there needs to be a showdown center rather than later as a direct oath. with the introduction let me turn to this book of storming the heavens from african-americans in the early fight the right height. this book deals with the fascination, if not of session that people of african descent, particularly in north perth have the concept aviation. as you probably know the wright brothers have been credit for the invention of the airplane circa 1903. kitty hawk north carolina. although there are a bazillion challenges to that claim went on the book you have five people before and i feel free trying to invent fine devices if figure a way to get this please! [laughter] but certainly, they won the race for the patent which in a society like this is what is important. and black people decided that they need to know more about aviation because early on, aviation was being used as a tool to enhance our oppression. document used for airplanes in terms of aerial bombings takes place in north africa, libya in 1911 eight years after the wright brothers so-called convention. about 1921, there is the bombing of black wall street. so there's a book about that. that is just this black community in tulsa oklahoma which was attacked from the air. contemporaneously, you have in africa, you have black people think pump from the air as a direct result of marcus garvey's organization, they decided to take dedicated interest in aviation. this was seen as a compliment to the flagstar line. you might remember that shopping line i was going to be sending goods and people around the globe. and innovation was seen as a complement to that. and then if there is the question black people training as pilots and i have spent quite a bit of time in this book talking about john robinson from chicago to mississippi. one of the early black pilots. took his skills and talents to ethiopia in 1930s to help to repel the italian invasion of the ethiopia in the 1930s. he also became the chief pilot of the imperial majesty and has been given credit for helping to jumpstart that only the ethiopia air force but ethiopian airways. which today is the leading carrier on the continent and bids fair to get together the entire continent in 2017, 2018. that is to say, hoping to possibility if you're trying to from west to east from there to nairobi you have to go via london to paris or flyby ethiopian airways. and as directly from west to east, and this the open airway was no small measure. and when he died in 1954 in an airplane crash, the streets were lined in homage to this heroic figure. another topic that i deal with in this book, is that women, black women in particular became interested in aviation really early on. some of your probably familiar with bessie coleman. diane reckons one of our leading choreographers, her mother was a leading -- if i can use that term. and even choreographed a piece. he can probably find it somewhere perhaps on youtube about these early black women pilots. as matter of fact, after new information in this book about the origins of the tuskegee airmen who of course the celebrated given their role in world war ii. the 41 to 1945 and willa brown, it was an early woman pilot was one of the women it was excluded from participation. if have been the tuskegee air people or force. doesn't necessarily have to get tuskegee airmen that turned out. i will also talk about the struggle in terms of black passengers which is a major struggle. it was sort of a patchwork of segregation. often times interestingly enough, they put us in front of the plane, the back of the plane. and i'm sure that you can figure out why. because of the plane crashed and it presses headfirst. and they wanted us to go down headfirst. and so, he took a major struggle change that. interestingly enough, a major role in the process is played by the naacp who of course dispatching staff and lawyers from the atlantic to the pacific oftentimes having to take herbst as a result and there is are protectors of jim crow. and then they begin these flights just to preserve the right of their staff of lawyers to fight in a non-jim crow fashion. then there is the struggle of black flight attendants who at one time as you know, were almost all women. and there was a monumental effort to keep black women from being flight attendants. the only things were said about their physical appearance in order to keep them from that particular job and will not recite the details here. you can buy the book and find out what those entail. and then of course, to get people from paying pilots and flying commercial airlines. this is also a conference for that not only friends of john robinson and the solidarity with ethiopia, because he was the only black pilot traveled across the seas to contribute aviation skills. there is also stories in the book about -- just as we were trying to use aviation as a tool of liberation, the bombing of libya to suggest was a companion effort to use aviation as a tool of oppression, and the now fortunately defunct pan-american airways was a major contributor to the process of oppression that is to say, they opened up flights to south africa early on and saw that as being a signal part of their mission. there was a major campaign as you know,. but in africa to try and curtail the landing rights. . it was a major step towards the exultation of the apartheid regime. this book culminates in 57. it is not only the time, comes independence, after march it is also the time when there was a major florettes protest in washington d.c.. a companion effort to the better-known 1963 march featuring doctor martin luther king. 1957 also marks the desegregation of little rock central high school. and you may recall that the vice president was under enormous pressure because the united states is trying to peel to african nations and independence like ghana and the caribbean. this was very difficult given the fact that black people and people in of color were treated generally this way. and they were checked hope to protect his black students in classrooms from being mauled. i was in little rock a few weeks ago doing research. i was a sense of public radio and one of the little rock nine as they were called, because it was marking the anniversary of desegregation was fighting for the proposition that even today, there are members of little rock nine that are still being harassed. i mean that is 60 years ago! and the difference is that i drew from that is an inference that i've stated before.and ousted again. i think our historians have done a disservice by underestimating the resistance to steps to quality and contrary to what the great african leader -- once said they are claiming easy victories! and in a sense they are telling lies. and it is misleading us and does not prepare us for the catastrophe we are now facing in washington d.c. with this con man, certified misogynist occupying the oval office. these historians are not preparing us for these eventualities. and then when they happen, oftentimes they are dismissed as operations anomalies etc. as opposed to being part of the chain of this on a consistent pattern if you like. and the red from 1957, little rock also happened at a time moscow sending satellites into outer space and as many of the black opinion motors were saying, a sputnik was a result of the us ruling elite being more concerned about the race race than space race. that means it for keeping black people as far away as possible from higher education for example. administering inferior patient us and this was handicapping the nation in this battle of ideas and another battle with the soviet union. so this puts pressure on the is authorities not in the area of aeronautics and aerospace but those of you have seen the movie hidden figures or read the books, you can see stories as a prelude and a prequel, if you like to that particular story. so that is where this book physically concludes. although i do have kind of afterwards trying to bring us up to date about current struggles are taking place in the air. because i should also say that another struggle was not only over the right into the cockpit for the right to be a flight attendant or the right to be not subjected to jim crow and the right not to be subjected to jim crow airport restaurants. but it was also the right to be involved in manufacturing of airplanes and there was an attempt to give us far away as possible. and i should mention also that one of the reasons i got interested in the subject was because like many, i'm fascinated with the idea some point in this century, assuming that climate change and nuclear war does not obliterate humanity, that at some point in this century there will be an effort to take people to live in outer space. it occurred to me that the same problems that are occupying and preoccupying us on planet earth, will then, they will follow us into mars. and so i thought that with this, this back story of aviation and reaching the stratosphere hopefully, will be useful when and if that moment comes. that her grandchildren and great-grandchildren are living on another planet. in any case, that is this book, storming the heavens. and this book, the rise & fall of the associated negro press, it tells multiple stories. and, it tells a story of the associated negro press was in existence -- had correspondence all over the world. it employed many of the lymphatic writers, many of the leading journalists and some of you may recall -- from the new york and the new york times. it even employed musicians. because as you know, black music as you know is popular globally and so, vocalists -- was of course correspondent and the band was for in europe and opera singers that were performing abroad and john robinson! for ethiopia. also, when he was in ethiopia as -- his pilot was also following stories for the associated negro press. so it was about this journalistic enterprise not unlike the associated press register with us but is a news agency that plants these articles in the black press of course, you are graced here with the l.a. sentinel and the la watch times to just name two of the members of that thriving enterprise. but it also tells a story, an alternative history of that. from 1966 to 1967 because book cover stories of the mainstream press, the new york times, washington post, etc. where ignoring. and so, i was able to tell alternative history through looking at this. and that their archives is one of the richest archives i would say the entire field of african-american studies. a 50 kilobit is on microfilm which means it is accessible anywhere and some of it is not on microfilm and can be found in chicago and the chicago history museum. i recommend this for students or anyone for that matter. because it covers everything! i only focused on international questions. you can write an interesting story about agriculture through their archive, until stories brush business through their archive. actually, if you look at my footnotes, a lot of my footnotes about aviation are from this archive as well. so, the associated negro press was in existence for 50 years by claude barnett and he is little known to david during his lifetime, he was one of the leading american figures of that era. not only because he had this new enterprise but because he was a very canny investor and their hands detailed as many of us, understandably, would like to encourage operation of black business and i in that category. we have to realize that contradiction that can arise. when you are an investor. for example, claude barnett, he was pressuring the belgian authorities in the congo in the 1950s about the deprivations of what was being committed against applicants.one paragraph. and then in the next paragraph he is importuning his colombian official of african art. so he went from major african art collections -- at the tuskegee institute. i deal a lot with these in contradictions for this man, claude barnett who, before the advent of the cold war, the post-1945. had very close relations with some but, he was not able to withstand the pressure with regard to the us authorities. also as a story about a man who is a bugaboo of the right-wing. frank marshall davis. for smiling. if you go to your smart phone and looked up frank marshall davis, you will find that from 2008 until 2016, not to give you a hand, [laughter] he was seen as the evil genius behind barack obama. because he was the correspondent for the associated negro press and a man of the left as they say. and then at a certain point, moved to hawaii and mr. obama's memoir, he talks about this figure named frank.so you can infer, rightfully, is the kind of or figure. and the right wing made a big deal about frank marshall davis. wrongly, i should add. but in any case, i have more detail about the life of frank marshall davis. so i'm hoping that the right wing except the book. [laughter] so they can find more information on frank marshall davis. this is about the associated negro press, alternative history of a 50 year period but it is also as the subtitle suggests, a story about the paradox of jim crow. what i mean by that is that you have figures like claude barnett who in my estimation, really got caught up with this mania toward integration.that is to say, making sure, as opposed to desegregation. knocking down the walls of jim crow, but in many ways, the mania health undercut the business because as the new york times and washington post bought into the concept of integration that meant that they were competing with him. he was appointed the market and now have to compete. and many of his journalists left the enterprise. interestingly enough, this is happening at the same time that the a&p seems to be at its height because africa is coming to independence. he is expanding, his filing stories of french and portuguese and many of the colonial languages of africa. he is starting relationships with african newspapers.and it reminds me of the story of the african slave trade which collapses the 1860s when it seems to be at its height. that is to say that a&p is the 1960s when it seems to be flourishing. it seems to be the height. and part of the story is told through the lens of the paradox of jim crow. so, in any case, that is this. and ãi will stop here and you can lineup they are if you have any comments or questions. don't rush! [laughter] [inaudible] x i wanted to know if you have any -- here in atlanta and what happened with air atlanta? i think that was the first airline -- flex what year was that?quick that was in the 80s. >> there were a number of attempts to form black airlines. i even told a story, it is in this book. of this guy james was a pilot who starts a business in haiti where he is picking up dry cleaning and a small airplane within a 25 or 50 mile radius of the capital. and then taking it back. part of the paradox of jim crow that's what i'm talking about so those enterprises mostly did not take flight if i can use that metaphor because competition is stiff look another all of the airlines gone down to two in recent systems, transrural airway eastern airlines, et cetera, so if these major highly capitalize airlines going down the tubes you can imagine what's happening to these black american attempts to start airlines as well. they're running into some of the same road blocks if it is not stipper road blocks, so to speak. >> my question is where did these aviators get and white people teach black people how to fly. >> it's interesting some of them were taught by europeans that's the story i also tell to say, they oftentimes found that europeans were interest inside teaching them these skills than americans for reasons you may be able to surmise, and then there's the case of eugene there have been books written about him before, and he's in my bock as well a black american whose born in georgia as i recall at the turn of the 20th century and then as a young boy, stows away on a ship to france. and then he becomes a learns how to become a pilot. while he's in france, and then he winds staying in france coming back intermittently to the united states during world war ii he becomes spy for french resistance somebody needs to make a movie about hill all of the stories that somehow -- don't take flight. then he's with ropeson and peekskill september 1949 when his concert is attacked by right wing. so then many of these pilots also were self-taught and, of course, there's a high mortality rates. [laughter] to put it mildly because some of these guys are making their own planes and then -- learning how to fly. so morety rate is very is high and then you have -- these ancillary enterprises and for example, for some reason, people like to see parachute jumps and so there was this -- this brother named willy suicide jones -- [laughter] who for the longest time held the record for free falling. i think he jumped out of a plane at maybe 25,000 feet and didn't pull the cord until 2,000 feet u now you can imagine whack go wrong, and that was not uncommon. that kind of, that kind of entertainment before the arab television and even in cases before the arab radio so as i said there was this obsession with aviation at a certain point people black trying to find teachers to teach engineering, for example. and i've actually like to see a revival of that kind of fascination. as we enter this new age of extra terrestrial travel. [inaudible conversations] >> so i wanted po find out if you discuss the california eagle in your book, and also if you could talk a little bit about the politics of the associated nee imrks ro press because it was it to the left of all of the other papers black papers. and so -- i want to -- you to talk about that and if you driveway it in your book also. >> yes, i do i show bass editor publisher of the california eagle in existence in los angeles i guess from -- the 1920s up to the 1960s. it's -- it's a woman of the left as you know -- she got into hot water with the u.s. authorities not only because she was associated with the progressive party which was the left wing political party. but also pl after the chinese revolution october first 1949 -- i know she might have gone there i can but in any case she comes in conflicts with barnett because barnett is moving with the political win, and show trying to resist the political win, and she's not able to resist the political wins, and that creates an opening for l.a. sentinel which i read the l.a. sent mall i even have a subscription renewed. but with respect, they sort of staked up territory to the right of the california eagle that is to say being more conservative than the california eagles. and then was able to profit bountifully as the california eagle was driven into submission, and it was then planted by l.a. sentinel that comes after california eagle. so yeah that story is there. hello my name is jesse shah and thank you so much for doing this work, i have two questions. one is concerning the role of women in aviation i just kind of scan think your book and i see that -- betty coleman in early 1920s was one of the people who taught pilots and i was wondering if you can comment on progression of blacks in aviation and role that women play and whether they were how does she get there first to teach while she wanted a first one, and then my second question is concerning a statement you made about our tendency to understatement the burden of advancing in society. and you gave the xeample of the little rock nine. and i was wondering you say they're still being harassed i was wondering if you could be a little bit more specific as to what type of harassment are they continuously undergoing and is it coming from -- the federal government or from local. >> freelance, so to speak, and as ebbs this is -- just and i was in little rock doing research years are ago so i was listening to public radio and they were marking the -- 60th anniversary, and mostly harassing phone calls. but thrt this litany that sites in presentations like this, i mean if you look at the deseg rei gages of ole miss, you know, there were major riots that took place in people were killed. if you recall -- boston crisis public schools in boston there have been films and books written about uprising with regard to that. or to go to the 1980s the early 1990s with the housing desegregation crisis in yonkers new york, major revolt against these desegregation of housing is by the way shown in this film you can find on -- various services. show me a hero anybody say show me a hero yeah very interest about yonkers desegregation crisis on housing. but i site that litany to suggest that often timest therein a understidges estimation of race cyst resistance which is mind boggling concerning history of this country and my bock on the haitian revolution i put forward the idea that you cannot begin to understand the collapse of slavery but understanding haitian revolution in and britain abolitionist who pressure united states to move away from slavery. and oftentimes this is down played because i guess, you know, it make them sleep better at night. that to think that there's not that much resistance in everything that is honky door rei, so to speak, but then confronted with events of november 2016, what is flowing from that and having not only these sober discussions about the prospect of nuclear war and -- [laughter] and all of the rest, but you know, op-ed in "the washington post" that is mistaken today is he's going to be reelected, in 2020. so -- i mean there's sober discussions about the prospects of fascism in the united states of america, and if i may say so if on youtube i have a lecture on that. my name september 2017, chicago just gave it. so i think that we really need to move away from this underestimation of the strength of the ultra right force never should have taken flight in any case. i mean, given the fact, i mean, you have psychological larceny giving tenure at ucla writing books about genocide taking place in california against indigenous population over the 1848. you've had slavery jim crow in the united states nationals were captain of the international slave trade as early as the 1790s. and then they have formation like the republic of texas 1836 to 1845 independent state which was then challenging the united states for leadership with the international slave trade that had lonestar flag could found oe coast of brazil. i mean, this is the history of the united states of america and so given that history to sort of underestimate the strength of the right wing, i mean, these people smoking their drapes, i mean, what's going on here in so in any case, that's -- that point. the first point, betsy coleman was born in -- what was called a indian territory in oklahoma as a matter of fact, with a different definition she could even be called a native american although she's a partial african ancestry as well and winds up in chicago and she -- her enterprise is many ways supported bit publisher of the chicago defender. of course there's a new research on that particular story all the time. as i noted perhaps for you winds up going to france. and trains as a pilot, and she crashes i said there's a high mortality rate for pilots interestingly enough, the people who the person who invited her to jacksonville, florida, where she meets her death is a father or the grandfather of jeanettea cole former president of spelman college. father -- thank you. [laughter] and that's where she perishes but i talk about we willa brownd whole cohort of black pilots fighting on multiple fronts needless to say, and, in fact, the kind of obstacles that are strewn in their path help to explain in 2017 why black women are still underrepresented in materials terms of aviators in the united states of america. >> a second question -- and i was actively -- active participate in the civil rights movement. and in fact i integrated cafe downtown while i was in the 8th grade, and i -- i feel that the harassment continues because even to this day i'm being denied access to society for some reason and i can't figure out any other reason. so when you made that statement, that's why i -- asked that question. thank you very much. >> the question is timely and well taken, and i home it is taken seriously. >> yes, how are you doing? >> i would like to get the relationship between haiti and cuba and -- >> what time period? >> i see -- up to the cuban revolution 1969 and -- >> what's going on well i have african friend who said that north korea and africa had a relationship could you please explain that relationship to e me? >> uh-huh. well, with regard to north korea and africa you have countrying like zimbabwe which have been brought to sanctions and in attempt to break that strangulation, of course, it has relationships with china and has relationships with north korea, et cetera. you may have noticed in the newspaper just the other day that -- sudan which had been undersanctions by the u.s. authorities was sanctions requester just to break or u downgrade relations with north korea. if i'm not mistaken someone can correct me that major statue in sin senegal with the man, woman, and the baby. i think that was north korean sculpture if i'm not mistaken. because there was a complaint that they look north korean not african. [laughter] but -- i think that there's a long time, long-term relationship between north korea of the democratic people republic of korea the dprk and many african countries because if you think about it for a mannano second you have the war with on korean peninsula june 1950 stretching in its hot phase until 1953, and with the regime survives and then you have african nations surging independents i mention ghana in 1957 and many of these african nations are looking for assistance. as a matter of fact i'm writing a book right now on southern africa. and so it turns out that many of the anti-colonial fighters in southern africa are getting raining in north korea. for example -- an china too for that matter. so it's a varied relationship. other question was about haiti and cuba. yeah. well -- you may mow that the haitian revolution to 1704 is a world historic event as suggested a few moments ago. it pig nightses general crisis of the entire slave system in the americas that could only be resolved with a collapse. which, of course, happened in the caribbean, jamaica bare bay toes in the 1830s because like revolutionaries anywhere, the haitians are trying to spread their antislavery gospel and they're stirring things up in jamaica and and london realizes jig sup and begins to move away from the african slave trade and slavery itself circa 1833 yankees digging their heels but the same process is unfolding on these shores there's evidence that suggest that gabriel revolt in virginia the beginning of the 19th century is at least inspired by ongoing revolt that are taking place in what becomes haiti. with regard to cuba, after the haitian revolution of course haiti considered one of the richest pieces of territory on planet earth because of the exploitation ofs in terms of producing sugar with the dislocation of revolutionary process a lot of that production moves to cuba. and -- in fact a lot of slave owners move to cuba from hispaniola sometimes bringing africans and slave own percent doll shores as well to louisiana, to north norfolk to louisiana, et cetera. the independent haiti, in fact, i talk about that in any book in haitian revolution they nevada try to intercept slaveship. cuba is a major recipient of enslave africans. you may recall that slavery last in cuba after slavery is abolished in united states of america for example. and -- many of these ships are flying to star and stripes of the lonestar flag of texas, for example. a turning point for haiti comes in 1844 with the split you know that that island now is shared by two countries. haiti and dominican republic. as i tell the story this was one of the more successful interventions of u.s. foreign policy in the 19th vie helping to engineer that split and let me say i don't dispute dominican sovereignty and belief. but still the story should go forward nonetheless. and -- haiti, of course, is spreading antislavery gospel but also to cuba, also to south america. to venezuela et cetera so it is a very important country, and when i speak on pacific often times i mention the fact that within hailing distance of where we're speaking across the border in baja california. there's a large number of haitians who really need our assistance some of them are not integrating into mexican society interestingly enough but there are other who is needs our assistance and there are any humanitarian it is in the audience or people who have contact with the humanitarian organizations i recommend to you assistance to these haitian brothers and sisters across border because haiti was there. when -- many of our ancestors needed help, and one good turn deserves another seems to me. >> is there first i would like to really applaud you to appreciate your style if you've displayed a -- an awesome historical account of facts. i have three quick questions one is that could you comment on the -- distinct that occurred on reagan administration where the bombing the airlines in granada in which -- >> in granada. with the reagan administration and he's a native his people are from granada what would -- what would cause him to not challenge or to even think twice about bombing the airport -- in the bombing the airport in the airstrip in granada in which you know took place under reagan administration. the second question, is that you mention belgium and the congress go and it too was bombed was working very diligently to run the belle they have talks with cruise ship under kennedy administration they saw perhaps leaning to socialism ultimately that administration was very instrumental in killing -- [inaudible conversations] , and lastly was marcus in effort with the uni and black starline and you mention the contact did he have any serious relationship with a sovereign nation continent where he was actually cultivating a relationship that could have bridged gap in our struggle and if so -- with the political wizardry of marcus gar by wouldn't he have to think on fact that not being a native of this -- of america it would be easy for him to be deported based on his political activity that he -- i mean it was -- it was very easy for the united states to classify that as being subversive and to be deported i'm trying to put myself in that frame of mind of the honorable marcus to see whether or not he himself also thought about that and what was his options as he was moving the uni forward and did he have a correspondents on press that was articulating the legitimate aspirations of the suffering masses of our people right here in globally. all right, and lastly, the last question -- [laughter] the -- the -- when lieutenant plane was shot down in iran he was flying on -- syria, excuse me thank you he was actually captured and he was flying and killing literally syrians jesse jackson along with leaders petition for his release on the moral issue of him being i guess an american but he was black. what had did the moral effect it that have on syrian people when he was literally killing them? and for him to be captured by design decree why would our leaders feel the wait a minute, this here is a african-american he's many a sovereign country doing serious damage. serious damage -- what would, what would you know cause our people look at this as being an african-american and petition for his release when he was literally killing quite a bit of syrians? >> okay. thank you for those questions -- no really -- really it was a good question. somebody can fact check goodman i can't recall if he was killing lebanese i can't count details but in any case i assume that reverend jackson who was running for about to run for the presidency, and it reminds of the story about barnett many of us have multiple identities and if you're going to be an investor there are certain laws of capitalism that you are constrained to observe you want to avoid bankruptcy. and similarly if u you're going to run to have this imperial enterprise i assume there are certain rules that you must observe if you're going to be taken seriously. as a candidate in in book i talk about in terms flts early block american fascination with -- aviation that a number of the pilots bombing north korea in early 1950s were black american. >> it's true. rnch due to the fact that there was this obsession with aviation and trying to learn how to try. but also the danger they have having nervous break downs i mean flying in general flying a plane is -- becoming simpler nowadays because computerization, of course. but then not only the damming of flying people were shooting at you as well. and so many of these pilotses they're out of commission they're having nervous breakdowns for example so that leads to pressing of black americans into service as aviators and then they're gong down to north korea. being shot down now in the con text of the the revolution 1979 to 1983 a very important political development led by the new jewel movement under morris bishop as you know a internal squabble within the movement that had to bishop being killed and with the pretext for u.s. invasion in the fall of 1983 so i guess that means we're marking 34th -- an anniversary this month so con sill area of rongd wilson reagan former governor here in california -- [laughter] apparently felt that rules of the game necessitatedded that he -- be involved. in this attack on tiny a country entire population could fit comfortably in the l.a. coliseum for example. well listen the adult population could. and of course you have cuban construction workers who are fighting these u.s. invaders. it was, it was really -- a very tragic and unfortunate turn of events. now with regard to the congo i hope this book is here if not you should order a new book called love phone. it is very interesting it deals with a relationship of black americans with the congo from the time of the takeover by king in 19th century up to independence 1961 you might recall that after petrice was assassinated that a number of black americans invaded the floor of the united nations and had a raucous demonstration turned it out, in fact. you might also recall the recent news stories about doc, the secretary general of the united nations who died in a plane crash near that same time. apparently -- if any of these culprits are still alive, hopefully, they will face the music. and with regard to marcus garvey, keep in mind that there weren't that many independent african nations at that time. had library which was colonial, the united states of america and they had ethiopia and is a point.i think in this book, marcus garvey's relationship with ethiopia was not the best for various reasons. and so that complicated having relations with his imperial majesty. although, you probably know that the southern half of the particular they were a number of followers of the uni faith. but also, in south africa. i will talk about this in the book i'm writing now. >> i had to say this 5 o'clock! i think

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