great recession. think about what happened nationally, the proportion of jobs the disappeared in the manufacturing sector, that was true, a lot of the jobs that were lost paid pretty well but had not required higher education to get. more men than women lost jobs in this recession. i thought that this was a community that had a number of qualities in lost jobs that other people around the country would understand and identify with. i also had the sense jamesville might fit into the sweep of history. i remember the first time i found the youtube video for speech barack obama gave at the assembly plant in february 2008. i don't know if you remember him coming. i remember the first time i listened to the video saying the promise of jamesville is in the part of the domestic war effort in world war ii and the plant stopped making vehicles and started turning out artillery shells. it have its own big moments. i just like that part of history. and before i knew anything about this community or have met anyone here i have a sense that i might find some interesting politics. the state was led by scott walker. and beginning and now live from the southern festival of books is author carter smith and his book gangs in the military. -- gangs in the military. [indiscernible] good afternoon and welcome to the last session of the day for this room. we are pleased to have you here. i am professor of criminal justice administration and militant -- middle tennessee state university. were glad to have you here at the southern festival of books. we will do this in a format that is familiar to dr. smith and i. we like a lot of audience participation. so as you listen to the presentation here for a few minutes we will invite you at the end to come to the microphone and ask any questions that you may have. that we can help you understand the book and the material and the topics. so he will speak in just a few moments about his book and give you a broad summary of some of the things he has done, how it is impactful to all different aspects of the u.s. and then we will have a question answer session. i would like to introduce dr. carter smith. he teaches criminal justice administration and middle tennessee state university. he was there for over 20 years. fifteen he sent in fort campbell kentucky. the first gang and extremist investigation team. he has the interview about gangs by several news new sources has appeared twice on the popular history channel and has co-authored three books and many other articles addressing the subjects of gangs. he is still an active member for the board member of the tennessee gangs. a three-time recipient of the federal militant award. his new book that we are here to discuss today gangs in the military gangsters, bikers and terrorists with military training crosses nonfiction writing genres. with memoir and american and military history a true crime threat. the gang experts described it as a must read of anyone concerned with the gang problem in america. and evidence of the infiltration of the gangster mentality within our nation's military branches. and is well researched and very comprehensive and well proven. another book on gangs. the effects of social media and the way and that that we have interacted with each other. please welcome dr. carter smith. thank you for being here. as a professional academic now no longer a practitioner this is a very large audience. we get large classes and we teach with many dozens and sometimes a little bit more than a hundred students. right, i don't know why we go. we do. one of the things that people ask a lot is how i got interested in the topics before i respond i have to think the organizers and volunteers of the southern book festival. the middle tennessee state university. the book was about 25 years in the making. it was not necessary a labor of love but it was an adventure. i got interested in the topic beginning in the early 1990s. it began seen in indicators that groups of individuals were engaging in correlated criminal gang activity. we have not seen anything like that before. having learned to maintain relationships with police officers and other locations and having kept up with current events we knew what we have discovered. the problem as we thought was that gangs had infiltrated our small military committee. on one occasion i was working with mpi investigator on multiple car break-ins in some parking lots on the installation. the sheer number of incidents indicated that there were multiple correlated offenders. they told us they were members of the local gang. not long after we encountered several male military members. we just started looking for indicators and as we learned what they were. the more you get out and talk to people in the community the more you see them we realize if we out there. they would call us and say remember what we were looking for. it is what we found. it was like a hide and seek contest. they ask how many gang members there are in the military and i have to start the question by telling you how me gang making members there are in america. roughly 4 million. there are parameters. there is about one and ten of them has military training. making them what i called military trained gang members. there are between two and 6 million gang members in the united states today there is not been in this official count in over five years and when there was there was no agreement between organizations that we were counting if we take the numbers that were last tallied and factor in the modification. combined with more recent research that shows we were under estimated the number of juvenile gang members this is what we end up with. the research has shown between five and 10% of street gang members had military training. roughly 300,000 or 7.5% which is a conservative estimate of the 4 million gang members had military training in this country. that is a decent size for a city. research by and noted gang scholar shows that 20% of what i call domestic terrorist extremists have that. the same research shows about 5% of the gang researchers are counted. they have military training. i was getting my information from police officers. they tend to stand in the way of more advanced gang members. in the estimations indicate that many jurisdictions have up to 10% of that training. unless you were joking about question and answer session. that's all i have. >> i will ask the first question and while i oppose that and carter response if you are interested in a question we have a microphone over to your right. if you will make your way there i will recognize you in just a moment so that everyone can hear your question. one of the first questions and you kind of hinted at that was how did you get interested in this topic. i got interested because it was part of my job. i have no interest. in the 70s in south florida in a suburban location we didn't have those at the 70s in florida. i think that as a lower level of it at some level. but when i got into the military i realize that the only way that we can investigate groups or individuals is to try to think like they think. the best way to do that for me as a population i was unfamiliar with is to ask questions. anybody wants to know why people do things you just ask and a lot of times as long as you are not asking any threatening manner. they will tell you and if they ask you in the right way they will tell you honestly. that was kind of fun. not only was that there. i love interviews. we also were one of the first in america to have the problem and was able to acknowledge it because we didn't have anybody shutting us down at that point. if anyone would like to ask a question you can make your way to the microphone they described how you got into it that you a that you just like talking to people. it's always surprising that people will just tell you all kinds of things that you don't expect. it's quite remarkable. ultimately you had worked in this field in many years. what drove you to drive and to write the book. what was the idea behind it. it was a combination of having to get another degree as you know and having to head something to write about for several years. i retired from the army in 1999 in law school. i spent three years in law school. that was never going to be practicing law. there was never a question. my wonderful wife who is here today bought me a book that i subtitled 101 things to do with the lot agree besides practice law. sales in teaching were on the list. they said hey i want you to come work as a civilian. prior to that though we had been investigating things. i became one of the people who knew a lot about gangs in the military and there was a case in 98 in clarksville where they thought it was a gang member or a military guy. he'd killed four people at a taco bell. things like that. when you learn about things and people realize you know about them they call you. years of experience with this thing that i just happen to know a lot about and that was dissertation time. that's when they ask you what you love enough to write about in your sleep. as you will wake up in the middle of the night you will have to go write it down and never remember it again. i kicked around a lot of really great ideas. this would've made a good one. the chair of my committee asked me what you know the most about. that was about writing them there is no way that they are going to give me access. for the gang association here in tennessee. take that a couple steps further. i had written the other books that you mentioned. i have no interest in writing this. at least a dozen people want to come talk about it. in my editor for the publisher that i work with she sent a random e-mail out. catherine said hi dr. smith i see that you go to these conferences and you present on gangs in the military. i've got to be honest with you. remember i told you about the people that listen to us. that same number of people read the book. i'll care if i make any money selling the book. i don't need to write it to read it. this was icing on the cake. she said nobody else has written one and i was not going to make it academic book unless you needed to. what she meant by that is you are not going to be falling asleep while you're reading it unless you make it that way. i ask or asked her to me still have a peer review. she said why would you want a peer review. we will sell it and all of the bookstores that i just mentioned is probably not a good idea. why would you want a peer review. i want the liberty that comes with me saying to a regular don't care what you say this is quite conversational. i call that a win no academic books get that commentary. it was just one step after another alignment. it was already written a peer. just a matter of putting it on paper thankfully my wife encouraged me to block out this time and it came out. there it is. i just want to clarify for everyone who is listening. this is an educational book. it is an engaging book. you wrote it that way on purpose. here it for the audience of a wide group to have access to it. we both teach students who well fall asleep at the drop of a hat. so our goal is to make sure that they don't do that until halfway through class. and i try to do that with the book as often as possible. the legal section in chapter four. i cushioned it with a lot more interesting stuff than the law. questions are. i can only imagine a lot of time to handle stuff in house. with the projectors up there. just so there is no mistake. that said on their dime. they shipped me and my teammate all over the nation until an event called 911. for all intensive purposes shutdown gang shut down gang investigations for at least five years. i understand. i will make any notes on that. but with that said i had approached several people that had decision-making power and had conversed with one of them and i will tell you how i did it. there are couple things in the book. i like to give life ideas in addition to teaching in class. one of our former chief of police here in nashville gave me some good ideas. but when i was going through writing the book i compiled information that i got from freedom of information act request and i started going to the places where i was normally talking and i would survey them when you finish that survey path forward and then i start talking that way i'm not please me your opinion. that was based on the presence of military gang members in their communities i'm starting to send those reports to the pentagon. and i sent my third in my fourth and i got a phone call number five. an intel analyst and said i was just wondering if you were sending me those so we would have them would you want to start a conversation. i said i'm not the enemy. i will be a collaborator if you let me. there's a lot of stuff here that i've been studied for all of these years whether i want to or not but i would love to give you some ideas everything i know about them is in the book. i'm not been told that anybody is annoyed by it i was told just today that there will be a lot of people watching on c-span i do not white -- write the book to embarrass them. at least that was my goal. we've another question. yes there. dr. smith was one of my undergraduate professors. i was trying to get my degree i was in iraq. as you finish my coursework. and he was allow me to submit paperwork or coursework little bit late. hopefully i get my doctorate which i also was recommended for. recently the army times quoted command saying that there are 33.6 million eight in the 224 euros that are eligible to join the military. when you wheeled down for a standard quality and interest only a hundred 36,000 are left. that's interesting because that's the same demographic that gangs are looking for for recruiting. it looks like you can't win here because of the same one they are looking forward to join. they are linked to some kind of gain. what do you think about that. the demographic you're talking about what he have a couple is the one that we are looking at as universities. they target that same demographic. we've another population called adult learners and as a theme demographic. and what i will tell you is that i understand that if it is intentional you can get somebody who has been on the other side and you can mentor them and you can help them. i will tell you this. the vast majority in my opinion of people who left the streets and left the gang to join the military did so with the complete attention to getting out of the gang lifestyle and getting into a life they can sustain. that they could continue forward with. and all of the good things that you and i thought about. when we first joined. with that said for that population and a group of people that joins with the intention of getting out they may not get out right away because i think culturally our military they think the military brainwash his people. i gotta tell you when i joined the military back in the 70s it was right after vietnam right after a lot of challenges in our country i did not get brainwashed. i went in to get military training i think everybody goes through that. but did it change my mindset completely. absolutely not. only it's more dangerous when they do. with that same population you can have a small fraction of a percentage. you only have a hundred thousand to qualify. any presence you've ever heard say we need more in our military that proceeds a alexi of the standards. this is not a trade secret denial of anything here's at they don't tell you we are lowering them today and in four or five years they are going to raise them again. and anybody that came in while the standards were lower. they will be reconsidered. no guarantees. that might provoke me to go back to the gang but you have to have justifiable employment. if all the that time to advance your life. there has been researchers i don't necessarily process that. i'm still working on it. about ten years ago one of the researchers and this is in the book we might as well just walk him then and the criminals that are out there that are doing the things on the street especially if they know how to use a rifle. especially if they know how to work in a group and run the streets. we are not talking that. who was borderline organized crime. it's right close to the mafia imagine bringing them in the military time and time again in our history those people have been used by our government go back to the war of 1812 and research how the pirates helped us. they already knew all of the training that they needed. ever since then. they are people that have acknowledged limits on their ability to stop committing crime let them in. just protect yourself. when i put one of those guys in a secret position no. i want them over here shoveling something. use them for the skills that you know you can. if you want to protect yourself and the government i would do two things. i would hook them up every year and i would probably hook them up at the polygraph every year also. if you have a guy that says i want out of the gang that way you've locked you blocked them in. he's committed. give them a psyche eval. and keep them out. if he shows that he's not getting out out of the gang time to maybe reconsider. does that make sense. we have discussed how some individuals will leave or hopefully leave the life of crime to try to get into the military but one of the questions that come to that how can they even get it if they have a criminal background or something like that while we were in. we were sitting around after work one afternoon we got there has to be a better way. we were identifying tattoos and sharing it with the people people that were seeing them in the military and we're trying to find other ways. we're just telling everybody that will listen. we would like you to look for this. we figured that as commit a felony typically. surely the recruiter would not normally let the men with a felony so he must have lied to the cruisers. they have gang indicators. they had step in stuff in the barracks room. we would take those indicators and we would go over to the personnel and we would look at his file and his personal fire -- file and we would see if he have a felony reported and he didn't so we would run a background check and lo and behold there was a felony. that is one way. not reporting it to the recruiter is one thing. that happens. we had recruiters that have literally said. here we are in davidson county. come if you have never been to dickson county. if you came to me as an army recruiter and i said maybe you have some gang activity i would save my friend who is a recruiter in dickson county we have an agreement and he needs numbers this week could you go in listed there. if you've never been to dickson it's a fair bet you've never committed a crime there. they would run a local background check just that county. clean bill of health. easy to stay out of the crime records. you never committed a crime there. those are just some of the tricks that used to happen. we were a paper that shut that down for a while. then the waivers went up. you can keep changing things if you want. it doesn't always work. some estimates of gang members who had military training and things like that. and some of the ways they got in. how big of a problem do you think this really is. maybe the two parts. let me give you a little bit of history. it is a current problem. and there is a threat for people who had military training. if you saw the movie demolition man irwin play by rob snyder. he's one of my favorite quotes on this topic. were not trained for this kind of violence. and if you imagine something has been trained in the military and other gang members yes is not a pretty sight. it is not current problem. it is a horst horsed oracle problem. see mason in the revolutionary war. as a first work this country had literally. he was often a suspect when crimes occurred. both in his teenagers in his adult years but he was appointed a justice of the peace. after the war he trained as a counterfeiter. and later a river pirate. he lived in a place called redbank's kentucky. they have property they didn't pay taxes on them. they sold the farm and did not had enough to compensate. he moved to a place called caven rock illinois. if you remember coming into that. imagine a sign over the front of it. and you're coming down in about boat that does not had power. you had been paddling or pushing or something like this and you come around the corner and you see this big round opening in the limestone and over the top of it it says wilson's liquor vault. and you and a bunch of sailors are about to park that boat. the militia skills and started being a river pirate. he still from a lot of folks. finding some company if you know what i mean. and while he was doing that some of the men would go and kill the people on them when they came back over. he was run out of there not long after it. it's a late 17 hundreds. he was run out of caven rock. so he headed to natchez mississippi perhaps you're you are familiar with that term. it is the beginning of what we in nashville know as the chase. people have to do and we took that. we went to survey the ohio river a few months ago. i realize realized that there were lots blocking everything. i rented a note. it was just the river that was flowing all towards nor orland. and then people would park the boat there. scrap it sell it break it up. and they would horseback or whatever back to their homes in tennessee and kentucky. and so he became a land pirate when he stopped being a river pirate. how is that for cross training. that was early 1800s. a group called the hounds appeared were new york street gang members. they were gangs in new york as early as and they were popular. have you seen gangs of new york. will talk more about them in a minute. they were new york street gang members who joined the army to fight the mexican american war. they were discharged in what was that brand-new united states territory. and they were dropped off in a place called san francisco. the gold rush began like the next year. and the gangster training and they were the security force that the ship owner went to when they realized a bunch of their sailors that signed up to bring stuff i don't know if you had kids on the trip but i have to call mine back and say come get your luggage. take that in your room. they were running to go play. so that they could get the stuff off of the ship. there were a lot of people that needed that. they get a little bit carried away when they were going to the business owners. they said put on the city's tab. we are not pain. we paying. we run this place. and they got a little crazier than that when i would consider the domestic terrorist extremists. they were nationalist. it may be understandable when you he moved to new york to california. they were chasing after killing an otherwise assaulted the mexicans, chileans and other south and central americans. it is a whole lot faster to get from mexico to california. before we have planes and trains and automobiles. then we have jesse and frank james. they were confederate gorillas. once it over if they go the right way. they spent their time harassing and ambushing the union soldiers. and other sources of money and property. they were motivated by the hatred of the union. they were actually at this conference. we will take another confederate. one more local example. the occupied territory. they were in an occupied territory the mud by people they were against and i say that because that is often how gangs and other groups like that form when they are being oppressed and marginalized. most long-term domestic terrorist extremist group. they formed and a very similar fashion. nobody likes what they have done since then but that doesn't stop the forming of being very similar and then my favorite month eastman. he was a good example of the military trained gangster. if i was giving out awards he would get the first one. he was successful at everything he ran the streets of new york and i don't mean random i mean random. he was assisted politicians until he crossed paths with the wrong person some of them took out the wrong guy. and then he was considered persona non- ghana. and then he lied about his age so that he can join the army. and go fight in world war i where he did very well in the trenches in france. he was will decorated so well that his criminal history was expunged by the governor of new york when he returned. this is a guy who lied about his age. what was he doing in the army. he told the recruiter he was 39. he was 43. when he went to get a medical physical the dr. said where had you been fighting. i said i've been fighting the war in new york. he meant it. month eastman after getting his record expunged essentially went back to new york and revisited his life of crime did not give it a he was nonetheless buried with full military honors. >> we one more question here i hope that you can see that this is a well written book that includes a lot of interesting history. any of the things we didn't know maybe some as i was reading i never knew how they were connected. i think that is one of the great values of the book is interesting easy read. it interweaves the history that we head in this country and identified how people have left the gang to join the military and vice a versa. we one more question please. >> this is a little different historical era at the same general thing since you got to the post- civil war activities. i don't remember all of the details but there was a private army that continue to exist after some of the nations had been fighting the white company and they operated for decades or something like that for a long. of time as a private army. i guess they were brought low by the extended warfare or whatever. could you address how that ties and or relates to the sort of thing you're talking about now. if there is a private army in your private military contractors like we have today. they could be dangerous because they are flying a little bit under the radar government and politics obviously. it would be similar to some of the gang members who got out and maybe did similar things but not exactly. i'm not acquainted with the group. this may be one reason that the hundred years war was 100 years more. i just remember the name of the outfit and they operated lately without anybody been able to take them and overpower them in the region of opportunity. if someone else would like to ask them. so again with a great example here from early history all the way to the present day the very basic question what can we do about this. i have a couple of suggestions and i will type they are in about two different places in the book and thankfully i brought reading glasses i will give you two types of suggestions and one is typical for gang members which is sorry about that. some prison systems use and don't be alarmed that i'm comparing that to the it to the military controlled environment where there is discipline and get things happens. some of them are using a system of treatment and repeat offenses i would just cut to the chase. they might start with acknowledging the gang members and instead of simply taking their word for i gang activity they could announce the counselors and then they can limit the terms of enlistment. and make it a periodically periodically qualified thing. about four years ago i recommended that they take part of their behavior of gang members or the allegiance of gang members into consideration not only for criminal purposes if they were permitting crime but also for reimbursement purposes because there's no law that said you must reenlist in army every few years. they can decide whether to keep that are not. and if they're in a gang or hanging out with people who are in gang you could say no. it would also affect if i were in charge whether we give them a security clearance because last time i checked every time i got a security clearance they talked only to now delinquent friends when i was growing up. they made sure of that. i just can't imagine that not happening if someone is in a gang. the other part of that is treating it as a public health issue which many people do and for youth gangs applied in the military might be a similar access to the high intensity cognitive behavior imagine folks with non- criminal doctorates overseen a supervision. they could rise and track the progress of gang members. and report them to military leadership decision whether to keep or not. another thought. screen new personnel for potential gang membership. yesterday the gangs left and right. they were red and blue. they were this group or this group. today's gangs are smart enough not to wear the colors because all the cops know they were colors so they dress like everybody in here. we could have a room full of gang members but i'm sure were not. if we are you won't know. they have made the transition into society to where they know how to blend in and how to blend in very well. maybe find someone who knows what a gang member looks like an easily identify them. to identify their affiliations and for discharge purposes and security purposes and then make sure your stuff is secured. they will love taking gas masks and things of that nature. just lock it down as if your people that might rip you off. if there are any other questions that was a time to make your way to the microphone. i guess i want to give you an opportunity to close and i think we had one more question before we do that. >> i would like clarification. are you saying that the military recruiters are not doing a thorough background check on all recruits like they do when you're up for employment. >> great question. the lawyer in the set i should answer your question but for the past several decades there had been many instances where a single recruiter new that it was a gang member and put him in anyway. waivers were given when they have a criminal background the one that you security clearance. the background just to see if you come in and in security clearance get you access to things that might be detrimental to our country should you know them and divulged them to someone else. i think i completely agree. i will take this that regardless especially since september the even contacted people doing it. they don't have within a year. i'm talking about a simple backer check when someone is applying for a job and it could be a job with job core in a different state it can be to be a teacher they have to go through a background check and the military does that. this is not limited to the county that you are applying. today they actually do a national check that i know of. but with that said there are many gang members who committed crimes and did not get caught. you are looking for the unidentified system which is going to be a huge chunk of that there cannot learn the military training to include doing rates which the gangs consider home invasion. to include the logistics of moving the entire people from one point to another. they learn the military skills because it they didn't have a criminal background. they're that good. it was another debatable issue. all right. i would just like to add to that. it's a very good question and adds to the strength of the text which has multiple ways we can try to prevent this. if we rely solely on a criminal background check that only catches the people that have been caught. the gang activities and things like that. it would only enhance the strength of this. the solution you have given is a multifaceted solution. of this. we are about out of time. i like to say that i think you will enjoy this book and you will find it very easy to bed entertaining read. you can tell by his style of presentation as a storyteller which is part of what makes next line book. i'm curious with one final closing thought when you get together with family and friends and they ask you what you're doing. what is a story for a quick two minute overview of what you did that always seems to capture their attention. one of the things i like talking about that because you may not believe this and getting at least through he will some people don't believe that there are gangs in the military for any number of reasons. i've encountered that in the last 25 years. i do not use to believe it. something smash in the face again and again. you tend to believe it. the book is found in bookstores everywhere in the nonfiction section. number two i'm not devoting my life of 25 years is not life's work but i have not been investigating this many years because of something we made up over a beer or a cup of coffee one day. with that said i love having conversations with them. unafraid friend will say something along the lines of sounds like you are knocking the military. it's legit i get that. but the reality of it is-the military there are gangs in the military since 1991. i've been telling civilians that since 2007. there had been flaws that have been enacted. change or focus. let me read a section to you. there are gang experts los angeles, chicago in new york. we just head an bloods. here is how the phone call goes. it was literally his name. hello, this is a special agent carter smith. great, it's come to our attention that some of the terminals are affiliated with the gangs in your area mainly the bloods in the crips. is that self, where did you say you're calling from. i said to fort campbell kentucky. it's just north of nashville tennessee. hang on. let me connect you with a gang specialist. hey jim there is a guy on the phone from kentucky that said he has some bona fide do you had time to talk to them. there was a long pause in silence before i heard hello i tried the conversation went downhill from there. here's how the conversation went. i read him off a them off a couple of initial reports that i just sent to the pentagon. that's not real gangs. me run some by a big eye. guy. i don't think that's what i call the if one of my not yet a gang members shoots another one of my not yet gang members or should i get you to investigate it. we became friends. i told him if my military trained gang members come to la you will not know how to respond because you don't know how to do reverse swat training. these guys going in a to raid places with a rifle just like this going in and your folks are not trained to respond to that. so we should be friends. how does that sound. thank you very much. thank you all for coming today. [applause]. [indiscernible] [indiscernible] and that wraps up today's live coverage of the southern festival of books from nashville. we are alive again tomorrow with more authors including creative writing professor jerrod yates sexton. and best selling author. for complete schedule visit book tv.org. if you missed any of the coverage you can watch everything again tonight starting at 12:30 a.m. eastern time. c-span where history unfolds daily. in 1979 c-span was created as a public service by america's cable television companies and is brought to you today by your cable or satellite provider. here is a look at some upcoming book fairs and festivals happening around the country. with author talks from the city central library. later with the ninth annual boston book festival. it will happen on the same day october 28. and then in early november we will be live from two state capitals look for us at the tested -- texas book festival. later next month we will also be live from miami dade college for the miami book fair. senator al franken. walter isaacson. katie turner and many more. for more information about upcoming books and festivals into what previous festival coverage cook the -- click the book fair tab. >> as jack said to me memorably jimmy carter was the most intelligent president of the 20th century. catherine graham said so tip o'neill said he was the most intelligent president they have ever had. he could consume amazing quantities of information and assimilate them and use them as having a conversation with the brett schoolcraft at one situation. he said we were talking one day and he sent i love this guy. i can give him a 50 page memo in the afternoon and i get it back the next morning with the notes in the margins. on every page. and he said that's the worst thing you could possibly do. he doesn't had time for that. i think the key got bogged down in the minutia. in fairness stu will give you chapter and verse and i'm sure jack could to on all of the legislation that was passed then. more legislation since anybody. but he could not prioritize. you need a chief of staff to prioritize to make sure that the narrative is consistent make sure that everybody is on the same page none of that is happening clearly in the present day but he suffered from not having a white house chief from day one and in my opinion jack would have been a great one. one of the things it when you start out your book you talk about the most logical kind of meeting in advance of it taking office. it was to bring him up to speed and had most of the chief chief of staff there to give him advice. is it like josh bolton who was the president she's chief of staff have gathered this group they were having breakfast and talking. one of them was sitting next to me at the meeting and we just went around the table and each one of us made a brief statement of some little piece of advice that would give some guidance and we will give you an example. when i got around to dictating .. . [inaudible][inaudible] >> he is a great storyteller. he looke

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