>> good afternoon, everyone. good afternoon. my name is michael kugelman, the senior associate for south asia with the wilson center's asian program. thank you all for coming. before forget i just want to thank our institutional cosponsors which are the middle east program and also the wilson center's global women's leadership initiative. i also wanted to welcome those of doing this on c-span. as you all know afghanistan is experiencing a great period of uncertainty. international combat troops have left a fragile new unity government is in place. the taliban has been ramping up its attacks of late including in kabul. and once again and there are rumors of buttons to start these talks between the afghan government and the taliban. in recent days the chinese reportedly hosted taliban and afghan government representatives for informal discussions about the possibility of talks. this all makes for very tenuous time in afghanistan but also and especially for afghan women. even the horrific track record that the taliban has in terms of women's rights. there are a number of afghan women serving in leadership roles, professional roles, who have done and are doing brave and remarkable things for other women and for the country on the whole. their stories tend to get drowned out by all the news of taliban attacks, of governance of challenges and the like but they really have important and revealing stories to tell. today we will be hearing from two of these women leaders. to my left, jamila afghani, and via skype marzia basel. these two women are the focus of a new book by doctor sally kitch called "contested terrain: reflections with afghan women leaders"." it is a very memorable and moving read. i encourage you all to read it. is available for purchase outside the room. this afternoon dr. church will provide background on the book and we will then hear from jamila afghani and marzia basel. they will each tell their stories. sally kitch will come back and his words about the implications of these women's stories and the charges afghan women on the whole for u.s. policy in afghanistan. we should then have ample time for question and discussion. you should have a bios of the speakers and produce i will not do on the. i will be brief. dr. kitch is a construct of the institute for humanities research at arizona state university and also the regents professor of women's and gender study. before arizona state she was at ohio state university. jamila afghani is found of the educational and capacity development organization which promotes the rights of women's and girls i working with families to thwart acceptance of girls in school in rural areas. and also with imams to construct congregations about what the koran says that women's right. she established ngos called the afghan women's islamic network. there's many other things she's done as well. marzia basel is a judge sworn in as a judge just before the taliban eliminated all women professionals. this was a 1995. she founded the afghan women to judges association in 2003 which was later banned by afghanistan supreme court. she then worked for a number of introduction organizations to advance women's rights and then she founded the afghanistan progress of law organization to fight injustices. she fled afghanistan in 2011 fearing for her life as a result of her work with international groups. she is now in canada which is where she joins us this afternoon from toronto. so she remains involved with organizations working on afghan issue. so you didn't come here to hear me, so i will now let the program formally begin an outlet dr. kitch begin. >> thank you very much, michael. and thank you all for being here. it's wonderful to see some interest in this topic. i'd like to tell you a little bit, and situate myself, with regard to these women's lives and how i came to write this book. it was really out of character for my scholarship because i'm an american nest. i do historical and theoretical work within the u.s. i regret that i very little involvement with international women's issues, and tell the 1990s when i come along with a lot of other americans, begin learning about the treatment of afghan women under the taliban. and this treatment was attracting some attention from our government, not as much as you might think. some activists, some celebrities are climbing on the bandwagon. some of you may remember mavis leno who declared openly that she was forming an organization because she thought that american women were afghan women's last best hope. feminist majority foundation was racing awareness of the talibans activities and actually they were pretty effective in keeping a pipeline from going to afghanistan that the taliban were supporting. and president clinton was almost ready to support that pipeline. so it was definitely a lot of agitation. and i was aware that what i was hearing about was probably part of one of the most significant gender issues of my lifetime. so i began to be interested in it. had to look at the map to make sure afghanistan was. and they didn't quite know what i would do about this until two events happened. one was of course september 11, and the shock that i think many americans felt at this form of activity on our soil. we have not been accustomed to that although we lots of warnings about it many of which were ignored. i was puzzled a little bit that the response to that was going to be war in afghanistan. i understood why. i knew why this was that osama bin laden were being hidden there with the taliban and so on when but it wasn't until november of that year that i begin putting some of the pieces together. that's when first lady laura bush gave a speech in place of her husband. i think it was the first and maybe the only time that a first lady took the saturday spot that the president normal users to converse with the nation. and in that speech she defended the invasion of afghanistan as a way to help afghan women. in fact, what she sent him of other things was the fight against terrorism is a fight for the right and dignity of women. and i had a very strong reaction to this claim. the strength of my reaction was in part because i wondered where all the gender sensitivity had been before then but i was especially worried because i thought i wondered if anyone asked afghan women whether bombing the country was the best way to support the rights. and my suspicion wasn't that they had not been asked. and this triggered a response that in my field we call about them without them. in other words, a discussion of women's future and flight decisions about their lives policies about what they will do and what they will not do without any consultation with the women whatsoever. and this was characteristic of the colonial world. we were not the only ones doing it what the british were famous for it as well but it was a bit shocking to see in 2001 that this is still going on and that is a decision about freeing afghan women from the taliban was being made really in isolation from them and from there needs. so i got together with some colleagues at ohio state were i was at that time and we asked ourselves what the people like us do to express a different response to the plight of afghan women under the taliban and now under attack by international forces. personally i want to say something else to those women. and what we decided that we could do we didn't have the millions of dollars necessary perhaps to build programs and someone, but what we could do was listen to them. and that did not seem to be on the agenda of the government at that point. so we put together a conference that was going to be at ohio state 2005 by the time of put all the pieces together. and we invited nine women too and just talk to us for about five days tell us their views tell us what they did on behalf of afghans women. and in the meantime i was going so much about women activism during the previous 25 years maybe 30, that women in afghanistan have been active on their own behalf and on behalf of social justice for all afghans. they have been working towards peace. they had been they were war weary way past war-weary. and i couldn't tell that our government was conferring with any of them either. so we got these women to ohio state and listen to them. ever wrote a couple of articles, my colleague and i margaret mills. maybe some of you might know who she is very long career in afghanistan. and then i left ohio state. but to people that are really wanted to follow, but to people who touched my heart and showed me the directions that activists could go with the two women you are seeing right here jamila and marzia. i asked them if i could stay in touch and if i could continue their stories and hear what was happening to them and worry about them, which i did a lot of. and after a couple of years i got the research money together to actually meet up with them again, we did meet this time in istanbul because this afghanistan wasn't safe for either me or them to be seen with me. and they wanted respite, too from what i've had been going on. at that meeting they came to the room that i had reserved for us to talk in and they told me very clearly that the reason they with it is that they wanted their stories to be heard. that is the reason why the we are here, marzia said. is this important research. it must be done. and so i said okay i'll do what i can. we had about four days of interviews, all of which i taped and have been transcribed, which the book is based which they discuss their perspectives on everything about afghan politics its history, and their experiences as leaders and being able to be taken seriously as leaders. and they tell wonderful stories. i'm sure you will hear a couple a day. the book is filled with their stories. and i was delighted and honored to be in the position of representing them. but, of course, writing a book from that perspective is not an easy thing to do. there are all kinds of pitfalls of somebody like me could fall into, somebody from the west reported on this could fall into. and i worked very hard to make the book not only respectful of their lives and experiences, but also not to see myself as a sovereign subject and himself as the others on which i was commenting or reporting. so we had to create a stance for myself a humble stance where i was just as willing to learn from them and their culture and their perspectives as they may be to learn from me, although i don't know what they learned from the. i guess that's a question i should ask them. but i learned an enormous amount from them. i learned an enormous amount about my country's history. i have a chapter about the historical background of afghan women's rights, or lack thereof of persistent political patterns that seem to happen over and over again in which i think attended was reengaged after the invasion. and i wanted to be somebody who was not a subject to the imperialist perspective as one might expect a person in my position to be and that has been a huge part of my learning about this. and most importantly i didn't want the book to join the panoply of recent tax -- tax the story beneath the burqa. it wasn't my idea to probe their personal feelings about the veil. i wasn't about to ask of them would you rather be like me? i mean, all of that stuff had to go, and that was my goal. any of you who read the book you can let me know if i achieved that. the book is organized into three sections and then afterwards. the first section to some 2002-2005 and it's entitled hope you're because there was a lot of hope and optimism when we first met. and as they told about what they've been doing. the second section is called reality about 2005-2010. and the third section is called uncertainty because after 2010 i think that's the word that really dominated and probably still does. so the book really follows of them from their early lives through 2014. there's an afterwards that brings it up to date to as close to the time of publication as i could get. today i think we'll hear more about their current perspectives, and i'm sure you'll enjoy hearing about that. so the book itself my roll my roll began as a witness just learning something new. then i became a narrator, editor of their experience, and then i became a sort of participant in their lives in very small ways but we have an alliance i think amongst us at least from my perspective i hope will go on as long as possible. so the book interweaves these women's stories and some historical background and contemporary geopolitical analysis here are some suggestions which i will talk about later about policy implications, and also some words to feminists who would like to stay involved without falling into the traps that so often happen. so with that i'd like to turn it over. >> thank you very much, dr. kitch. why don't you start us off? >> well, great pleasure and honor to be among you all. seeing good friends from afghanistan and also here. meeting marzia after longtime. yeah, based on the recommendation that i should talk about my personal life and challenges and achievements and still the challenges we are facing, so i will try to be limited. as an afghan woman i started my work for social justice and well being of the people in afghanistan when i was doing my masters classes. by establishment of a network called -- [inaudible] that we could provide help and support for those women living with hardship. we started our work with basic needs. that's better to teach them the way of life proper way to continue instead of giving them something are asking people to help us. so that's why we put the name of noor. noor means like. we wanted to the light of education. we started our work from three chance after the issue of 9/11 reached to kabul. and even part of -- was not able to establish office. we were already there to start our work. and we start our work from the most -- [inaudible] today i'm very happy we could, through our efforts we provided letters to programs or 50000 women, and we have trained 6000 imams in 20 provinces of afghan about women's rights and human rights. and this network of imams is not outcome of one or two seminars but this is proactive continues in different ways with imams. we are also working on the issue sexual harassment and educational environment and also workplace. we're also working on the issue of child marriage. and we're also working on violence against women and also we are working for protection -- [inaudible] which receives a setback from the government saying this is against islam. for me as a human being as a woman, like sometime been i see there's basic need in my society, and, of course, we're facing many challenges and i cannot reach to all of them, i say,, you are not god. but as a human if i can help one woman or one child that is the calling of my life. with this patience we are working facing loss of security challenges, but still we are working. and we are hopeful that with his work with our like a small -- [inaudible] and finally we will have a better society, a better country for next generation, for my children, for my children of my country. the challenges we are facing of course that's and security. [inaudible] like one step forward and two steps backwards. the other challenges we are facing corruption. corruption, after the love with different up here, development and activities. the other the challenge that we are worried about is the association which is going on and we cannot see voices of women in the peace negotiation process. light in early days they start announce we have started negotiation and we could see that only -- [inaudible] we were asking my brother, with whom are you going to communicate? who is beside you? we as women. and there isn't consult which was held. we had representation from women and we couldn't heard anything about women issue when there was negotiation between government and between taliban. and out our future -- we are very worried and we are struggling to meet different policymakers, and hopefully taliban to listen to us. the other challenge that we had with the donors of international community, from the beginning like they have very short-term projects for women. and always they saw and they could still that women do not have the capacity to do great jobs. suffered cuts why they were given very few -- so that's why every given very few, or sometimes the female project was given to male organizations to deal with women activating can which was not that much fruitful. and also donors were having their own agenda always. they do not listen to women. how we are thinking about the solution of the problem. because we are front-line soldier. we are working on a part of afghanistan that our government cannot reach and international community cannot reach. so they are not listening to us. they do not hold our voices for policy development and better strategy to work out the issues which is existing in afghanistan afghanistan. and my achievements, like i very small achievements that i'm always happy seen that i can help someone with the small things that make me happy. i'm very happy that today i am here with you all. one of my greens, which was that i should write a book of my life about the difficult life i had but sally kitch help me and develop the book and she has highlighted my and marzia basel life in this book which is one of my dream come through in this book and i'm very happy. the other dream that i really want to do my -- i'm scared to death for many years and hopefully i will be able to do speech for myself. thank you. [applause] >> well thank you very much. that was one inspiring, impressive story. we're going to another former other speaker, from afghanistan judge basil. so please, judge him with ordering from you. >> good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. i am very honored to be in this discussion. i'm very very happy seeing dr. kitch after a long time like four years while i was in canada. and thank you so much for allowing me to be a part of this concern. it's really a great pleasure to be a part of the book that dr. kitch wrote about me and jamila afghani. i remember -- ohio state university. a lot of ideas listening to us and then continuing and finally the book after a long time. it's a great achievement not only for us, but also great achievement. congratulate dr. kitch for her work. [inaudible] as afghan women we grew up in a country and we express ourselves, and now the book is on the table. i encourage all to have a look and read. this may not be too much come it may not have all -- as much as we know that afghan women situation, we put it on the table and dr. kitch kindly sensitive thousand five-2015 can a lot of stories, the book will finally come out. about me i grew up in a middle-class family, educated family. i have experienced of -- i went to school in afghanistan and i got my judicial assignment in 1995 as a judge. when the taliban came into our. [inaudible] you can't believe sometimes i received e-mail from some of my students. they're working for national organizations. [inaudible] at that time while there were very few opportunities for other women to work, for business and get education. i was able and it was one of the great achievements i have against the taliban. while we lacked opportunities in the taliban having of interest to work outside, i experienced how trivial life was that as woman -- have a wife and be together, solve problems and be connected. especially if you're in the taliban. but after 2001 and lucky enough after the international support to afghanistan to the first time i came to the united states to the state department in 2002 i met a lot of u.s.-officials including president bush. [inaudible] they are struggling for the life. when i came back to afghanistan by district established the first afghan women's association, and that is were i am proud of. to the association i have a lot of afghan women judges -- and also provide a lot of opportunities for lawyers, for advocates to be part of that. decide that i tried to work hard. [inaudible] after 2009, the transition of afghanistan starts changes and there were some not good a vision for the future of afghanistan. and after that the first thing the afghan government, banned women judges, trying to avert afghan women. but anyhow i began an organization. i tried to work with the afghan women scholars from official with the afghan women teachers of the largest school with afghan women judges, but come advocates as well as we're expanding the afghan women's rights and constitutional rights throughout afghanistan. but especially because of the situation that i had, i left afghanistan. it is one of my biggest dreams that i should go back one day akin to afghanistan help my country, especially women especially girls who are passionate. [inaudible] challenge, implementation. it's one of my dreams and this is why i continue education and legal in canada. besides of that i am very close to the afghan community here. i am supporting and helping a lot of afghan women who are here. [inaudible] one of the very important challenges i should talk about is the security situation. as you know in the last few moments ago you remember, you can see how fragile women's rights could be protections of approval and any crime or any charge, how could be for a woman that no one is listening to them, and there is no protection for them. but we also have the challenges as was mentioned the recent talks with the taliban is -- [inaudible] women will not be a part of that, then any decision that could be taken for afghanistan will destroy all the prophets and all the benefits that women in afghanistan have gone in 10 years. women should be a part of this discussion. the taliban should -- human rights and women right. any negotiation with them couldn't be except for the afghan woman. i'm very happy, today i'm talking that afghan women. i see there are many afghan women now united. i see this is great progress. now we see a lot of women in private sector. [inaudible] in this cabinet we have women who are working but still i think that rule of law and judiciary and security in afghanistan are the main challenges. i hope international community did not let afghanistan to be in the situation we were in 1992. if the situation continues like that i'm sure security will be back and worse. [inaudible] the expansion or activities of isis is the one for us as women. women's rights couldn't be in any negotiation peace process without -- [inaudible] thank you very much. [applause] >> thank you very much, judge. and thank you to both of you for those really interesting and sobering presentations. given that we are in washington most of us would be interested in hearing what this means for policy. so dr. kitch will say a few words about recommendations and also implications all of this for the united states and policy in afghanistan. >> thank you. i would like to back up just a little bit before i start doing that to say that these women's achievements are greater than they have said. their modesty is very becoming but in order to understand what they've actually achieved, i hope you will look into the book where i detail and don't rely on them to have to detail it for themselves. and i'm shamelessly promoting the book because all the royalties from the book will go to them and their causes. so i've never done this for about i've written before but this time i'm really hoping that it will be successful so that afghan women can succeed as a result. so that both talked a little bit about policy implications already. but there are a couple of things that i think i would like to give background. one of them is that neither of these women would say that afghan women's biggest problem is islam. and, in fact i have a question about that in an interview i did yesterday. the interviewer said i noticed you didn't mention religion as one of the challenges. one of the things that's striking about their attitudes in the book is how they embrace islam in ways that i don't think translate into many americans perspectives about the religion of they think that people have misinterpreted islam and done bad things in its name but when they talk about what the religion means to them it's a very different picture. one of the things that jamila i think did not mention this are important work with imams in afghanistan, and this has grown did you say, 6000? okay. i just wanted to be sure that was on everybody's mind because of his work for which she has one and international peacekeepers award i think is quite significant and i wanted to point it out. so i just want to read one section of the book. i'm not going to read much but i think this gives background to some of the mistakes that the women believe that international have made. jamila and trenches with an account of efforts on behalf of afghan women pointed to do destructive perspectives that donors tend to do that. one was a pitiful lack of knowledge about the issue of women's rights in afghanistan. that ignorance and it's a company short term focus by both governmental and nongovernmental organizations to work for change only in immediate concrete and material conditions such as school buildings and health clinics, without tackling subtle cultural challenges. the second constructive perspective followed from the first. that is, many international change agents and don't believe cultural challenges are necessarily a matter of religion and, therefore, off limits to outsiders. that donors ignorance of the relationship between islam and local customs and empower local leaders to the detriment of women. tried to enter decried both perspectives although they remain deeply loyal to the country's history and cultural life. they have a healthy skepticism of allegedly sacrosanct traditional practices and a clear understanding of the distinction between such practices and islamic precepts. so those to me were some very important points to evangelize and to understand. a lot of the discussion in u.s. politics about afghanistan sort of overlooked this pic and i think there's still a thought that most people in afghanistan to support women's rights and, therefore, the us government shouldn't put itself in opposition to the majority of the population. so i think there's a lot of evidence that that is a false assumption. i think both marzia and jamila's work is a testament to the, to the fact that there isn't support but it has to be aroused in particular ways. perhaps in the questions and answers we can talk about that further. so that's part of what internationals have done wrong but here's some suggestions that i make in the book and i think jamila and marzia would still support. their advice was to forget high profile of short-term projects and instead think about long-term societywide solutions that that's the kind of thinking that seems have been absent in international relationships. they also wonder why afghans are not able to run the institutions that are actually put into place. and building the capacity is an important part of what the international community should strive to do. another is to actually tie donor money or any kind of intervention to women's rights your so in other words, if you're going if you're giving money, then where is some of it going, good portion of it going to support women's rights? and that is something we haven't done, the u.s. hasn't done. they have both said this but i think it's important to reinforce, negotiations with the taliban can't include conceding women's rights but that is a great principle but it's also an enormous insult to the work or the life threatening work of these two women come and others like them, over the last decade and more. and to say that that could be on the table is, is just not acceptable. i remember that when we talk in 2010 they foretold what's happening now, or at least what i've read in immediate. which is they said the first thing to be negotiated is the constitution, the part that guarantees equality. they have an equal rights amendment that is not an animate part of the constitution. and i read when these negotiations were starting that the constitution with something that taliban wanted to talk about changing. so i think we should be alert to that. from marzia i have learned of the importance of insisting on the rule of civil law. she doesn't reject sharia law at all, but she feels strongly that civil law needs to be supported and needs to be better understood in the country. also as i was just saying, understand women's abjection is not a requirement of their religion or their culture. and it doesn't mean that outsiders cannot address these issues. principles says marzia not customs, should prevail. jamila says this repeatedly that international action speaks louder than the words. so there's been lots of talk about women's rights and not much action to show for it. and, finally they called back in 2010 for a strategic national strategic plan for women. and they felt that that would be a contribution that the international community could at least help facilitate, and the showing the strength of the commitment of the international community to women's rights was extremely important because the weakening of that commitment among internationals would be reflected in the weakening of commitments among afghan politicians. so those are some of the suggestions that we make in the book. maybe they would like to add a few others. >> well, thank you very much. that was really interesting very useful as well. i should add, i don't know if this was said earlier, that much of the work and activities that both misset can and judge basel have done have not received international support. these are truly grassroots efforts. this is been a really interesting introduction to what i some of the engaging and rigorous discussion. before we start with the form of questions and answers i just wanted to pose two broad questions to the panel. first one to you, dr. kitch. it's about the title of your book, the first part of your title, "contested terrain." my since as of a call from the book is when you're talking about contested terrain you are talking about contesting terrain inside afghanistan in terms of internal factions but at the same time you're also talking about contesting contested terrain in the context of external power or external forces. easy to talk about what you in the time and particularly how it relates to this issue to the things that women and women leaders. and a question for judge basel and ms. afghani is a talk about your views of the new come relatively new government in afghanistan. this is of course a very fragile new unity government that despite its name is very fractured, seems to be very dysfunctional in the sense that it sometimes seems the president and ceo do not necessarily talk that much don't even know what's going on between each of in terms of policy. what do you think of this government? and how high of a priority do you think it has or will a court to women's issues is so let me start with you dr. kitch. >> i think the question is really interesting i'm going to make my brief. i think that there are several levels of contested terrain. afghanistan is historically contested terrain. so witty allusions in the title is to the history that i talk about of international sensing on the territory of afghanistan to create the country in the first place because of its strategic position particularly the proximity to the soviet union, without a lot of political games have been played over afghanistan over the centuries. the cold war was particularly problematic as far as afghan women's rights were concerned because the u.s. really knowingly supported some rather regressive actions in terms of women's rights in order to oppose the soviets who although they may certainly have been worthy opposition, supported women's rights and in so doing made women's rights associated with communism, which has a problem that still exists for women activists today. so that's part of it the history of afghanistan. and the card geopolitical situation in afghanistan is to a sort of a political football. but the others and of course, women have been struggling and their blood has been shed just for their survival, let alone the rights. so in that sense it is contested terrain. but also it refers to what i look at the beginning of my talk, which is for someone like me to try to say something about afghanistan is full of pitfalls or potential pitfalls. and i was very aware of needing to be careful and very self-aware as i proceeded so that i did not play that imperialist role that i talked about. so those are some of the things that i had in my mind but i think when you read the book you can see others that also come to the floor. >> okay. your views on the new government in afghanistan. you can go ahead, ms. afghani, go ahead. >> well new government, a national unity government, very good terms very fertile government. i cannot see it as a to hate each other but i can see many hated governments. antiparty has many other smaller groups around them that they want their own interests, their own agenda. we've all witnessed for the first six months they are struggling to announce the cabinet. and for each position they had their own bargaining. so whatever comes on the issue of women, like in excess more worried. when a government is not strong enough inside, how they will be able how they will be in position to provide service for rest of the citizens. and that's why u.n. security has got worse than before. whenever you hear from security situation and the media and i assure you it is not more than 10% of the reality on the ground. with all these real struggles, it is almost around five much that we are struggling to meet to share our voices. and mr. abdullah abdullah at least -- [inaudible] unfortunately with many requests and letters like pushing with different people we are not ever able to make them. but we are hearing with specific group of women there may be at least a weekly basis. so this is also concerned that if a government, unity government, why not for everyone, for afghan community, for every girl? and on the peace negotiation i mentioned earlier that there's not that much strong commitment to women come and we can see very openly that they are trying to push women at the corners to not being active during the peace talks. so these are our concerns and i hope international pressure will be increased on them to be more united and hopefully they also as a leader of a nation who are facing lots of suffering, should take their responsibility. and we are fed up your we are fed up with war with jericho with all what's happening. and hopefully they will counsel this issue. with such a complication that they're dealing with daily activity, daily routine issues i can say it will be very difficult in future. >> not a particularly optimistic assessment. judge basel, did you want to add anything to the new government in afghanistan? >> yeah, sure. thank you for your question. [inaudible] this election is based on corruption. you can say about the challenges during the election and after the government can't empower for months and months there was no executive body in afghanistan. and why they choose the ministers, they were not based on -- dividing the power between them. .. by their own people to the insurgents of the television. every day we hear one part of the country is a very big comfort. what i hear from the people that great day every morning because all of my family is back there every day -- quite and sustained for the african well and how to deal with the situation -- [inaudible] again the situation is not a good situation. i think the international community is very important in the tragic situation for afghanistan. to really be a united government, not each individually. because the international negotiation is pointing to peace in n. what the taliban, they can also bring peace in afghanistan but they should bring women to that part and there shouldn't be any changes to the constitution. i think the benefit we have in these last years comes to worse will be the afghan women and children. i am not optimistic about the future. >> unfortunately i'm not unfortunately negative pessimistic know we are going to open things up for the audience. i asked that you wait until you have a microphone in front of you to post your question to ensure the c-span viewers can hear with your questions are. give your name and affiliation when you're called on. we'll start on the side with the women that they are. >> thank you so much. my name is oriented just another fellow at the atlantic council. i have had the honor of speaking to jamila for hours. i'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about potential for connecting the women's rights movement in afghanistan to rural areas. we all know the women's movement in afghanistan has been more urban. it was international community supported. your workflows against that tide. it integrates the work of women's rights groups to rural areas with imam. could you speak in terms of how the women's movement can connect better to the teenage girls in different provinces including cobol. during my research i found an unfortunate gap between the women organizations and the students and universities have afghanistan. i would love to hear your thoughts on that. thank you. >> let's start with one at a time. we can always put them together later. >> unfortunately my eyesight has become weak. great to meet you. unfortunately still fighting investment investment of the international community and lots of current organizations working as a civil society organization their focus has been in major cities especially in kabul and some other state provinces to reach out and has remained always a big challenge. we are trying to reach to the local community to those villages that nobody has worked for nobody can go and work. i can give you an example of the province when we started and we tried to build the capacity of women there. one has changed that today my students now are running their own organization. it was not only a nap higher. my students have now started a reading station in the provinces and they haven't started since radio magazine in their own organization. that is why it is very important to the community. the other activity that i am feeling very proud bizarre community peace group that we have established this community peace group not only in kabul but other provinces such as helmand, kandahar, roth a -- [inaudible] this community working groups may try to bring women man imam policy of the provincial level to form a peace group in the community and one note to conference that we were supposed to invite women from the provinces so they had to accompany them to the conference. i received a call from kootenai province saying we are using this much money. i said then i know their structure and sensitivity. she said we need one. let's play some other women to come to this conference to be benefit. really it was until now i get very emotional but the community and the really foresighted provinces has a bigger need a bigger demand. unfortunately the methods that we cannot reach them in the community shortcomings. it was wonderful that we have one with a van full of women coming and they attend a conference a full week. unfortunately, in afghanistan several of the ngos were hated by a parliamentarian and most of the big sum of the project funding. due to the security and many other corruption issues by giving the projects to the organization that in reality they are saving money in the beginning. the issue of peace negotiation is now -- whatever position we are working in need of unity, we have to come together. from the other side the new foundation coming up they have better access to education. although i tried a lot to be connected although i know some other networks and organizations are also. we do have that trust. the women are thinking that they are experienced they were lacking some experiences. they are usually telling them that you should learn from the mistakes and you should not repeat because women don't have much time and we are probably -- we need to go straightforwardly. and we are struggling with established a network of advocacy. hopefully we slowly and gradually change the situation. thank you. >> next question is here in the front. woman in the white shirt. >> thank you very much. my name is charlie punted charlie. i headed up the women's international from 2002 to back 2006 and i remain at them in afghanistan as a member of the u.s. ascii women's council and its great to see my wonderful marzia basel again. last time i saw the first at that washington d.c. here at george washington university. i went to make reference to the stories that tend to get drowned out. as you all know, we are at a time of great donor fatigue and afghan fatigue here in the united states in this important even in the midst of the pessimism to get the good stories out. i want to express a word of regret that one good story but apparently didn't make your book was the work of the u.s. afghan women's council which was established by president bush and president karzai back in january of 2002. long before your ohio conference , this is a partnership initiative public-private or was anything but colonial or imperialistic, but rather responded to the priorities needs to the afghan women's themselves in the areas of political empowerment and economic opportunities, health and education. that is one reason i am here today because the partnership we had with women we've had has been very much a part of our network. at this time of uncertainty and where do we go from here it is these good models we need to promote and support and not forget the impact they made. thank you. >> i went to go right to the front row here. >> thank you very much. welcome both of you, marzia, jamila afghani. i am proud of the african journalists -- after journalists. it is hard to work in this tough time. the statement was wonderful. my specific passion is what do you think about this simply in afghanistan. as a judge, what do you think? everything successful -- [speaking in native tongue] thank you so much. >> thank you. in 2002 i was in washington in many other times. because what i follow -- [inaudible] it is such a big issue. just decided today was this punishment and modest changes that they decided they issued one year -- i am sure the idea that the family and most of the council will reach to the high level of the dagestan and the punishment in a proper way. the committee that was established in which they put it all together to really give -- [inaudible] >> this side of the room with the women in the frontier. >> hi, thank you for coming. this is amazing. i'm a recent graduate from another ohio university from the masters program of cross-cultural and international education. i was curious and i apologize. and i've been talking about moving forward. if you would mind taking a step back of reconstruction teams and if they heard, if they help if they helped or if they did absolutely nothing regarding women's rights and specifically within the provincial reconstruction which were the united states and other government forms and hearts in my missions in afghanistan as well as iraq. if you wouldn't mind talking about did they even have a role because they were going supposedly to rural areas. i am curious if they made it and if so do they have any impact. >> do you mean the international community? >> specifically the united states military. usaid was slightly involved in the reconstruction teams but mainly the military coming and i may do things run government strengthening to building schools and other such things. >> actually in reality we cannot acknowledge the achievements that we have by support of the international community in afghanistan. that we got our constitution through their support and they've got 25% of women in the parliament and last time i had a few women and i understand we have for women as ministers and we are working to have women and no-space issues. opening the doors of the school for women it is also a great achievement. the hopes that are especially has reduced due to support of the international community and there are many others good parts like we have national action plans and with god one national talent for women. so these are the biggest achievements that we have. but you know the whole complication which we have like usually when we are complaining that doesn't mean that it has not happened anything. but we are trying to protect the things we have. the foundations already have laid out. we want to build upon the foundation we don't want to loose the achievement we have so far. when we are talking about peace negotiation another method i am worried that we should not lose the ground because of insecurity, because of corruption and because of other methods. and people in the united states of america today are supported we have achievements and improvement in the life of women and if they are international community was not here i think we were also not able to be here like it was my international sister, my american sister who could help some paid back behind the sources and ability. these are the things we cannot ignore and we appreciate we thank you for that. [inaudible] >> yes please. [inaudible] they are helping to attract -- the general government project and we were hoping the micro finance and the women's education and the healthy shape of days. they had a lot of achievements because there were those who governed their permission and they both especially the election -- based on the election and many other things. i've been witness of the achievements. >> era recently a student and i read a little bit about them in the book. the criticism was the problem about ambiguity about their responsibility and resources and relationships in the absence of meaningful coordination among bad are with kabul. that was one of the critiques that was offered about whether they were really hoping women's rights. at the same time, they did make certain contributions that were very important. >> question in the second row from the back. yes. >> thank you i am dr. janet e. gained from a board member of united association of greater kansas city and specifically a member of the women's committee dared wear our mission is to educate locally in kansas city about women's issues locally as well as globally and i'm excited -- not excited but craddick and bring back the information to kansas city and recommend the book as well. i have two quick questions. one is in the peace negotiations is the pressure to not include women solely coming from the taliban side or is not also coming from the current government and how can they justify that? and also dr. kitch spoke about women's rights. i was wondering what is the support expensive among just common men and women both in afghanistan or what is the feeling there for that. thank you. >> one that you go ahead. >> thank you aired well currently we are hearing from different sources at the taliban has not shown any rejection to not have women on the table of negotiations. but this recommendation has come from high peace concerned and also from the government because the argument that maybe the taliban shows some irritation. if women are on the table they may show some irritation and and they may start back and they may not negotiate. and the recent talks almost a month ago, there were three women and we didn't hear anything from taliban that white women were in this conference and they should does not come. these women were activists induced or not having experience on the wind and said peace issue. but just for filling the linux of the last four hours just recently i have been meeting and i told them for god save when you have women there, why there was no issue of women. there is no discussion about women. they said it was just a last moment decision and the friends around the table gave us these names and send them off. we are hearing that they will hold another meeting and china is also going to have another meeting and that is why we are pushing and communicating on the table of negotiations that they should open their mouth. they should share some good examples. this is the issue the reality. this is the reality that i know. >> well, i said something about there being support for women's rights and i mentioned that the work of these two women and others believe demonstrates that. but i think what is important to recognize, there is some polling data actually that supports it. however, i think the brilliance of the programs that these two women and others like them have implemented is that there is a sensitivity to what they called the afghan way and that there is a difference between the imposition of certain right on the population and working with the logic said the population to understand the benefits to all of women's greater access to civil society and of their greater economic opportunity and their greater educational opportunity. and as i have listened to these two women talk about how their programs became successful it was clear that their experience tells us that we don't just deliver these messages from on high, but that we elicit them from the population to its own benefit and i think it is in that sense of what i've learned there is more support and sometimes our policymakers assumed and that they may or may not know as much about the local situation as they think they do. so it is in that sense that i think you find support. that doesn't mean that the united states announced tomorrow that we are pulling out unless there's a women president the next day or something like that that there would be a lot of resistance to that. there are also various reasons for opposition to women's rights. some of it is starkly patriarchal and misogynist. but some of it has to do with fear about safety, with a sort of confused idea about what protection is. i sometimes think the two words, protection and security get more people into trouble than almost any other type of behavior can go badly awry when those are paramount approaches and i think we can see that in places like afghanistan but we can see it in our own society as well. it is then that sense that i would say there is support or otherwise the work wouldn't have expanded into 22 provinces of afghanistan. the way that she does say it she makes sure that people understand the benefits not just for the woman as an individual part of her community, but as a member for community and a member of her family. the way i have understood there were, that has been an important aspect of it. >> to your good question before about peace talks, i would just caution that we now put too much into what is going on. these are talks about talks. this is not the first time the taliban has indicated some possible interest in toxic number of times and nothing has really come of it. the government is more interested in talks and we should be discussion of potential attacks. let's come to the front of the room >> hi, i am with feminist majority foundation. i have one comment and one question. we should be optimistic for many reasons. i grew up in afghanistan and i called the taliban regime the darkest years of my life. when i compare it to now there have been so many changes. now there's more than 2 million. if the women on face the doing amazing things with our society. how they carried others. there are many reason. nothing happens overnight. i do think there is a way back for us. we will keep moving and be optimistic. my question is at the beginning of this there was a two-day informal negotiation in qatar and one of them was i believe she's wiry. the taliban against women in politics. for me it's very difficult to trust the taliban. i would like to hear your opinion that taliban who did not believe in women's rights. should we want women and invite them back. what if they don't do what they promise. i would like to hear what you feel about it. >> well yeah, we have very fantastic experience during the taliban regime. one of the reasons the international community came to afghanistan and they said we are in women and we are giving women the right and freedom. at the same time when you see even the international community start bonding them and me that we were pushing this harshly that they will come back but nobody listened to us and it happened. the international community is pushing. the taliban should come back. my question is when you bomb them that today you are saying they should come back on the table at the decision. the situation of afghanistan and maniac tears are playing the game around us. the same question was asked for a deed the mother, tell me the group on hurley were going to trust. i said i'm not a fan. this is my answer for you but i do not trust none of them to the taliban. greece had hoped and i trust on the strength. many more of us we haven't reached the disposition peace of mind with a peaceful environment. we have satisfied our happiness, our well-being to do something and hopefully this notion going on and we will be in a position to make them to listen. >> judge basel did you want to add anything to that? >> no, thank you. you are the afghan women. you will be a good leader in the future. >> okay, a few more questions. one year in the front -- one here in the front. >> i am from iran. i am from the tribal area and i've been involved on a personal level for many years with the education of girls. i feel our biggest challenge is ignorance and poverty and how did you -- how did you face that, what did you do? one you get to have dialogue in the village. then you see that people walk with you. and one of the village is even donated a big piece of land. i said all right, how many do you want to and i have no idea. how many do we want? i got back to them the next day. where did you start? that is my question. >> we start the small missiles that means greatness of the focus. we started from -- i would say in one of my achievements as literacy come a provision of literacy for 50,000 women. this is not a small number. if you go back to our organization record you can see it there was a little bit of investment. by aids relief international and some program that they had some support. within the program the program is going on until now for 2002 until now. with a little bit of change. we are going and surveyed the village or maybe one or two streets to find out how many uneducated women and how many women are living. when they figure out four or five women are illiterate. we hold a training program for them for a month. with small incentives. after that, we find an agreement and the memorandum of understanding and we equipped and during this training we give the awareness that you have to help sisters for education. so she has provided a room in our own house for group of 25 women to come to her to get the literacy program. and every woman has to pay 220 by the end of the month. so what is a blog to a teacher or a government is paying. 200 for each woman is not very huge. this woman, which is trusted by community, living in the neighborhood and very easily access to come to her home for one half-hour on a daily basis and as literacy program. so this is what we are working on the program has now shipped it to different provinces from almost all corners of afghanistan. [inaudible] >> the teacher. the teacher will get. >> if she had 20 students she would have 20 times 200. have you verified -- >> we have monitoring mechanism in our system that is the most important part of a project and that gives us feed back in based on the recommendation and now we are moving to different provinces and extending our program. based on the northern provinces we found that the program is not working good they are. when we went there and did a little bit more intensive assessment and study, we found the issue of child marriage and the biggest challenge of ignorance and economic issues. so families are getting their daughters to be married at the age of eight and even seven years old. and they are getting some money. that money they are purchasing a car, so they are binding to the roadway and getting some money. to picture women that she might be hardly 12 years old, but the wrinkle on her face and her body shows that she is almost 60 and 70 years old. we found that these young women, the young brides are getting dopey on them because they are very young they are not a vote to afford a man and they are giving opium and snapped to be able to have relations. they are becoming drug addicted. so i am finding based on the work we were doing for literacy and since 2008, we are working on the issue. even in the northern province, marriage became another difficult task for us. transcendence were not coming to the agreement that this is not right in the good thoughts to convince them when we studied why they are taking such a hard position on that, we found that they are the first follower of that because only the child ride is in their house. the second issue was their relationship with the tribal leaders because they are the follower of such an activity and they cannot oppose them. so as a leader as a manager in my organization they are very very strong cycle that is why the organization started for an educational activity and now we have the avoidance. >> interesting. i would like to group together the remaining few questions. are there any more questions? looks like one more. the women in the back. >> hi, i teach at the community college and misses all of our students going through leadership conference the uaw is sponsoring at the university of maryland. we are really happy to be here. i teach a women and gender studies class. how i got involved teaching the course was islam into the curriculum and so i put it global when the squares together to be able to do so. you know, this has been one of the most interesting conversations and i want to thank you because it is about cultural changes cultural shows and i'm not an expert on policy, but it seems as though when we look at it people have perspective of the other. one thing that is not just the men in a pitcher society but whether women buy into it. so when it comes to putting religion into the mix in all of this, but fear is that is always a pushback. you can always persuade women that their place is very secondary. i guess it's not on that question but he said to me, do you think maybe there is a cultural shift that women won't put up with it and buy into the patriarch point of view about women's place is our private. literacy is fine because that is not their role in culture. do you think that is not allowed by women from now on in a country like afghanistan. that's what keeps coming back when policymakers look at things. >> do you want to answer that? >> thank you for the question. you cannot do that in one day or one year. this is one issue that means education. it is not for the women to be educated. this is a very important issue. [inaudible] the people could achieve some green is a huge challenge. >> both you and you have said you think afghan women are not in the position that they were in the night to 90s when the taliban first went to afghanistan, that there has been some shift. but would you say that it couldn't happen again, that they couldn't be taken back to the same kind of prohibitions? do you think they would speak out if there have been enough change? >> well i think the international community, it is but we cannot ignore. the way we are facing peace negotiation process we can see that it will be changed with the attitude of the taliban and an in government because of international community is. but we are not sure about that because of gaining power there may be some compromise on both sides because this is the game of power and misses the game game of politics and in afghanistan with menus that political tool. that is why they are not sure how much they will keep the promise but president carter's five, but when the state that came he had no objection is. the duo policy is going on to women's issues. when the parliamentarian that call themselves representative of people. when they come in it will shut down within a few minutes. it was challenging the situation. and now after the international pressure they are happy to have the law on their agenda and we are not sure what will be the again next time i'm not and that is why we are pushing the women parliament. they are hating them, the department of women within parliament and we're about to bring it back on their agenda. we sat for god's sake they are finished. again, they will do some political gain. so put it back and let the new parliamentarian and we should do a lobby before it comes on their agenda for approval. so we should be in a strong position. she took back the agenda. so giving these examples means that the same concerns you have, we have. let's see what will happen. >> listening to this conversation over the last three hours abstract by a sharp contrast between on the one hand the very heart warming and hopeful optimistic stories about women in society in afghanistan and on the other hand discouraging stories about the state and specifically the government. my fear my senses afghans may increasingly be on their own will not be able to count them all that much support from the state, from the government and also the international community. we heard before the comment about donor fatigue in this town. it is an unfortunate reality but it is true. the comment about the u.s. afghan women's council formed a number of years ago during the george w. bush administration is sort of a reminder about how relations between the united states and afghanistan used to be a lot better than they are now. they've improved since president guy took over. it's a different story today than it was 2002 or even a few years after that. i want to thank everyone that it's been on this panel. this has been a remarkable discussion and conversation. thank you to dr. kitch for bringing these women together in helping capture their story in this book "confested terrain," which i remind everyone is available outside for purchase. father's day might i say is right around the corner and i think it would make a good gift. i also have to thank our two afghan speakers ms. jamila afghani and judge marzia basel for the work they continue to do. this afghan aid is probably dealing with some jet lag. she arrived in the country yesterday. thank you to judge basel for joining us and allowing your connection to stay with us for the full seminar. with that said, i want to thank you all for coming and if you could join me in a round of applause for our panel. [applause] >> i invite you to meet with us. i believe dr. kitch are willing to sign any copies you purchase. thank you for being with us. [inaudible conversations] >> booktv recently visited capitol hill to ask members of congress what they are reading this summer. >> i am reading several things right now. i am regained china shakes the world is james cringe. he was a "financial times" writer award-winning books very fascinating. he is a lucid writer dealing with kind of what you would not think would be an interesting topic, but it is. i am also reading primo levey's works that have been compiled into a book if this is a man. just an astounding account of his experience as an italian jew that survived auschwitz and one of the most fascinating accounts to come out of the war. very sobering. makes you think about the rule of law and just because something is legal doesn't necessarily mean that it is humane. you know some pretty weighty things to consider there. it is a reminder. i am reading through proverbs and corinthians right now. you know, just in my morning devotional reading. and then, i always peru's different topics. i finished some very good books lately. i finished aj langer's book called the patriots. fascinating look at our early framers and founders and how we not only came to have the nation, but the importance of samuel adams and all of these men and detailed move-in from a handful of them and what it costs to get his haircut show you. i read all over the map. i am also peru's saints and german books that i bought on a recent trip to berlin that were first-person accounts about are lived life from 1933 to 1945. you never know what i'm going to be reading. i have varied interests. >> presidential candidates often release books to introduce themselves to voters and to promote their views on issues. here's a look at books by declared candidates for president. in his book former florida governor jeb bush argues for new immigration policies. .. >> okay, good evening again. we welcome an