does diversity matter? if say -- if you say yes, that .ine is (202) 748-8000 if you say no, (202) 748-8001. if you are undecided about it, it is (202) 748-8002. you can also send us a text, that line (202) 748-8003. spanwj.ter we are @c among the questions we can consider, will diversity result in changed policies as we talk about the biden makes so far in the upcoming administration? (202) 748-8000 if you think it is yes. (202) 748-8001 if it is no. some thinking, some writing about the thinking of joe biden and how he is putting together his cabinet from the washington post. 45,000 names, 100 the packets of information, and gut instinct is how biden is managing his transition. he writes that packets have been delivered regularly to joe biden's home, dividing meticulous details on each potential cabinet bro's strengths, weaknesses, and possible areas of conflict. biden has been conducting interviews with candidates, focusing on their values and life stories nearly as much of their approach to the hartman's they lead. he has made kamala harris's closest partner in the cabinet selection effort. she has interviewed each candidate separately and traded notes with biden and what has been an important step in deepening their working relationship. biden's transmission -- transition is providing the first portrait of one largely conducted behind the scenes of his style as a manager and decision-maker. from the outside, advocate groups and members of congress can find his process cryptic and unpredictable as they attempt to discern which directions biden and his core of advisors are leaning, only to find out he has abruptly switched course. some nominations have been handled quickly, while other decisions have lingered, creating frustration among allies. opponents of ideological diversity complain he has invested too much power. has largely shrugged off the criticism, confident in his own approach to what he sees as gut-checked decision-making. he has become more animated in defending some of the choices his internal deliberations have yielded, urging those on the outside to cape -- to take his folk cabinet into consideration. the brookings institution has writing about this, and more broadly about picks in the administration's past, and the diversity in those. here is the chart from brookings. they look at the racial, ethnic breakdown. the past three, it does not include the biden picks so far, in terms of the percentages, nearly 72% white, black andentage is nearly 11%, .sian 6% as well in terms of hispanic picks, over the first hundred days of the past three administrations. how important is diversity in the biden administration? let me show you the comments from some of the articles brookings had posted. article, said this, in a politically and racially fractured nation, even toward increased representation of leaders by race, gender, sexual orientation, and ideology does not occur by accident. diversity should not focus on representation, but rather investments in diverse talent not only help make america stronger and more resilient, but it gets us closer to our constitutional mandates, resulting in a more perfect and inclusive union. that is from brookings. your thoughts on the diversity of the biden cabinet. (202) 748-8000 if you think it is an important attribute. (202) 748-8001 if you say no. the most recent pic, miguel cardona. cardona ases secretary of education. here is what the president-elect had to say. >> today i'm pleased to announced that nominee we have. dr. miguel cardona. he is brilliant, qualified, and tested. he is going to join the cabinet, and it is going to be a historic cabinet. already there are more people of caller in this cabinet then the history of the united states. ever.are more women than the first openly gay cabinet member. it is a cabinet that looks like america. that opens doors and includes the full range of talents we have in this nation. host: joe biden announcing miguel cardona, his secretary of education pig. (202) 748-8000 -- education packet. (202) 748-8000 line to call if you think diversity is important. (202) 748-8001 if you say no. (202) 748-8002 is undecided. frostburg, maryland. go ahead. caller: good morning. matters quite a bit. what most americans don't whitetand is, when colonial supremacy controlled yearsf the earth and 95 to 1993, in the far east, every country over in the far east from 1898 to 1975, white supremacy controlled it regardless of what political philosophy or whether it was violent or nonviolent. the same thing happened in egypt, with india. 1993 with the mandela thing, the apartheid thing. is, youon't understand can't keep messing with people. diversity definitely matters. host: how do you think it will influence policies in the biden administration? caller: i think mr. biden is definitely on the right track. had chosenat trump is the same as the last 5000 years. that is a fact. thank you. excuse me,t in -- ruben in philadelphia. (202) 748-8000 if you say yes, like ruben. go ahead. caller: i do agree with there being diversity. last man said,e but i think everyone should be represented in the united states. i was leery of his defense secretary, because he is going to need a waiver. it is ironic he chose a black man on the hill after representative clyburn said there was not enough lachman -- enough black men. we already have democratic senators saying they are not going to give a waiver. will he choose another blackmail or see going to say, i chose a black man and he wasn't qualified? becausethis before, general mattis had a hard time getting a waiver. what makes them think senators are going to do this hypocrisy and gimp -- and give him a waiver? host: do you think biden might call senators ahead of time and say, hey, will you support the waiver for lloyd austin? caller: we've got john reed already saying they are not going to support it. host: what about austin? let's say he does get the waiver , what do you think of him as a pic? caller: i think he is qualified. i think his potentials are qualified, but i think he is going to be stumbling. somebody saying his comments on isis, and now with everything going on with china, because china celebrated him. have what's going on with swalwell with china. now they are trying to make china a big deal. there is some baggage. host: appreciate that. let's take a look at the president-elect announcing lloyd austin as is defense secretary. >> he was the person president obama and i entrusted with the incredible task of bringing home america's forces and redeploying our military equipment safely out of iraq. he was the largest logistical operation undertaken by the army in 60 years. muchng it done required more than military know-how. general alston was a diplomat. -- general alston was a diplomat. he built coalitions. he was a statement with the , you know, at tables i have sat with him, with foreign leaders. i wondered whether he was from the state department or the defense department. i'm not exaggerating. he has a way about him. and above all he has looked out for his people. that is why he was known as the soldier's leader. in the -- in his time army lloyd austin in every challenge with personal decency. duty,the definition of honor, country. challenged thee institutions he loves to grow more inclusive and more diverse. was the 200th person to attain the rank of four-star general, but the sixth african-american. he was the first african-american general officer to lead the army corps in combat. it was the first african-american to command an entire theater of war. if confirmed, he will be the first african-american at the helm of the defense department in well over 200 years. another milestone. barrier-breaking career has been like this throughout his career. host: joe biden announcing his pick of lloyd austin. we are asking you about the diversity picks in the biden administration. does diversity matter? (202) 748-8000 if you say yes. (202) 748-8001 if you say no. doesn't,ters, if it why? if it doesn't matter, what does matter in terms of picks for potential cabinet nominees? you can also send us a text or tweet a couple of them here by text. this is paul who says, this is typical of the democrats. identity politics, no surprise. diversity is important as long as necessary qualifications are not sacrificed. diversity can provide a variety of points of view. it prevents groupthink. they areays, whether effective managers will be what matters. steve says, absolutely. if you reverse that question and ask, is one important to you? it would sound crazy. support its would and deny it at the same time. mike in gettysburg says no, diversity does not matter. good morning. caller: thanks for having me on. if you were getting an operation would it matter who operated on you? rather than somebody who is the most qualified, ok? if you are sending your kids to school, which you want the best teacher or educator or would you want somebody who is diversified? scale.es up and down the that is my thought. host: to san diego and william. good morning. there we go. morning. caller: good morning. it depends on what you mean by first city. when i look at his cabinet, i don't see a lot of diversity there. i don't see anybody from the left wing like bernie. are there poor people there? people who have experienced poverty? it looks to me like a bunch of corporatists and people who have been relatively successful. know, see a lot of -- you relatively successful. host: carbondale, illinois is next. leah. caller: yes, good morning. for a lot ofrd americans, probably 75 million of us to listen to people talk about a peaceful transfer of power after we went through four years of resist with the coup attempt with the russia collusion and the impeachment collusion, and the slander of all of trump supporters. oh my gosh, the names we have been called as very hard. now we are dealing with the voter fraud with all of the illegal aliens voting, the dead people, china bought hunter biden. to talk about diversity being the most important pain, why is no one asking joe biden any important questions after we went through four years of just constant, constant slandering of president trump, a sitting american president and the media excoriated him and his supporters? , well,out here feel like china is the media. we have a china state media now, and it is very disheartening. us will never, ever accept joe biden, because he did not win. he cheated. henniker, opinion columnist in the wall street journal wrote this. joe biden's cabinet of diversity. does politics have a larger purpose than dividing power? he writes, a pragmatic argument could be made that appointments by diversity are not much different than old urban political machines whose patronage kept the peace among factions. a less benign view is that diversity has become a weapon to silence opposition and suppressed dissent. political satire, one of history's most effective weapons of opposition, is forbidden. he says that since late may black lives matter has become a proxy for diversity. blm put into play the intraparty tensions evident in the criticism of mr. biden's cabinet appointments. made itstion of plm political claims for black americans preeminent. and by default reduce those of hispanics and asians. what hasare demanding come to be called equity in esther biden's cabinet. -- mr. biden's cabinet. former attorney general for pasera.ia javier here is what he had to say when he was announced by joe biden. >> mostly you or go on new year's day, my father passed away at home, surrounded by his family. we got to celebrate christmas together. when the end came, my dad knew we were there him. no one, no one should ever have to die alone in a hospital bed. loved ones forced to stay away. that seems contrary to the values of a great nation. the values that drew my parents to come to america. -- maria tereza had only hope when they arrived in california. a clerical worker who arrived in her teens. as they help build a better california, they built a good partnership that lasted 67 years. while they never got to experience the inside of a college, they did send their four kids there, as well as to the military. now president-elect biden has offered me an opportunity to work with his team to shape our future. president-elect's determination to rebuild unity and civility in the america. we know it takes hard work. we know it will be key to building critical momentum and support for the prevention and treatment of the coronavirus. those values and priorities will help us emerge from this pandemic stronger, more just, and more equitable nation. host: it is "washington journal ," and some reaction. rick says this. of course diversity is important. equally important is that select these are qualified and that zero future criminals have been selected. robert says, biden's cabinet is full of government-lifers, the symbol people. lance says, does diversity matter to me? no, the ability to perform the job as my criteria. is nott think buttigieg qualified for his appointed position. diversity, then competence vanishes into insignificance. you get what you deserve and you deserve what you get. yes, diversity does matter in terms of the biden picks. good morning. caller: good morning, sir. listening to everybody's comments, it is so interesting. be as brief as i can. i almost want to react to some of them. please forgive me. i am not a minister, but nevertheless, there is a couple of things people need to understand. facts, actual-- facts. president trump lied how many thousands of times? we had a person on the air who does not want to realize that. two things here. read second timothy, third chapter. six, chapterserbs 15-19. things about the six that god despises, seven that he hates. a proud look, a lying tongue. i'm not going to go into the rest. here's the thing. god made this planet and the people on it, everyone he made -- that he made -- god does not make junk, for one thing. you, regardless as to what nationality, ethnicity you are, you have not only a right to be here, but he gave you something that is unique, that should be celebrated. we should celebrate the unique tests -- uniqueness of every ethnicity. every race has something unique to bring to the table of man. not just one race. one race trying to control the world is insanity. this woman was talking about 75 million americans don't -- 475 never joeople won't biden, how about the 81 million who put him in office? word says in revelations world will be deceived in the end. 75 million means what? debbie, sanford maine, undecided. caller: good morning. thank you for taking my call. it is like joe biden did not pick his cabinet. -- it was kamala. i just feel he has dementia. does anybody see that? it is like he is a president that is president-elect, what he does not have the mental capability to run this country. like, it is just beyond me. it is like, how everything is put in the republican and our 70es when -- yeah, there was million who voted for him, but that speaks something. we could not belong and say the word trump, because if i was in a workplace or with family it was thrown at us. and we had to shut our mouths. you know what? if you are a christian or whoever you are out there, you know what? cast the first stone. i have never seen something so in human toward somebody that is a fellow human being. to just put him through that for four years. it is what it is. i think with biden, you had better strap on your seatbelt. you are going to be in for one hell of a four-year right. host: one of the positions he has not chosen yet is labor secretary. pressure for diversity ways on biden's labor secretary position. concerns over diversity have delayed a final decision and could ultimately lead him to choose another candidate. five people familiar with at the liberations told politico. biden has a personal relationship with walsh, who spent decades as a union leader and member. bostoncently that of the construction and trades council. richard trumka leads the nation's largest labor organization. his nomination could appeal to construction workers. walsh is a white man, and although biden has already nominated most diverse cabinet in history, some groups are pushing for more presentation among the five cabinet posts that remain unfilled. the pacific islander community is urging biden to nominate a candidate at the secretary level, a designation that remains only three open positions. labor, commerce, and the justice department. rich is in ohio. good morning. caller: a real interesting conversation. let's look at a case where we are ignoring diversity. in basketball, we don't require people to play there because we have to be diversified. we don't mix it up on race and insist that they do that. why? because it is important to win, and we get the best people rate this is our government. we got world-class enemies that will take us apart in a minute. on not the best person in these jobs at this level is just insanity. we would not want to lose our basketball games. if it is important in basketball, it's got to be 1000 times more important for our country. i will hang up and hear your answers. host: to james in mississippi. caller: good morning. i want to say to you and to all of the people, i think the lord jesus christ for keeping us safe in this country. thank the lord jesus christ with the diversity we have in this country. people look at diversity as something bad when it comes to political politics and things like that. you know what? let's go back to our memory lane. we need to go down memory lane. we go back and talk about diversity and all of this stuff. you've got to understand, african-americans, latinos, women, white women, were suppressed. white women were suppressed by white males. and diversity came along when they said, you know what? and let's pute these people on the same level for us. education, economic, communities. they forced integration on america. goingorced, rather than into tina neighborhoods, african-american neighborhoods and making it even with white people, they said we are going to try forced integration. i'm saying today, that people who say president donald j. was the president for everybody, i don't disagree with that. you know why? he was the president. now biden is the president, and you got these people calling in when they destroyed president obama. they destroyed him. the only thing i have against this administration is, they say they want diversity. well, you know what? florida,a senator in she is a senator. she was a 27-year-old -- i mean a 27-year chief of police officer. she would have made a great attorney general. yes, her skin may be darker than the rest of them, but her heart and her soul, i was looking for her to be the attorney general. they put two white males in there, and they want to switch over and put this black person as -- host: james, i will let you go there. the attorney general position, one of the three yet to be announced. thecommerce secretary and labor secretary. louisiana, this is alexandria, louisiana. go ahead. caller: good morning. of the comments and individuals nominated, it is clear that president-elect biden has looked at the superficial qualities of diversity in terms of differences in skin and such. but i haven't seen is whether there is a diversity in terms of what matters, and that is in what we think. i think it was benjamin franklin that said if we are all thinking alike, we are not thinking at all. whether heo be seen has chosen people based on that very critical element of diversity, diversity of thought. host: what recent administration do you think may best exemplified that? that had a diverse -- talking about the cabinet alone -- had a diverse number of different thought, as you put it? who best exemplified that? caller: i don't know there is an exemplar. there was some diversity of thought in the previous administration, trump administration. kelly, jim mattis, of course they were let go, what i think the reason they were let go -- and this is just an observation -- they did have diversity of thought, but they did not have a clean thought. one of the things that is important when you have a different view from the leaders to express it, but after expressing it not abandon the team if the leader says, i appreciate that input, i appreciate that amp up but that is not how i am going to make the decision. it is always a balancing act when you -- you need people to .ell you know -- no host: you are on our undecided line. how do you think joe biden will be reacting to those alternative views. will he be the type that opposes that, absorbs the opinion and changes his mind? guest: -- shown a lot of anger. when he was asked about his son hunter -- that is a sensitive subject of course. to lash out by saying one horse pony -- i'm not sure what that meant but i think he was trying to say you are a bigoted horse. i think lashing out like that shows he is not receptive to differing opinions. it is hard tod tell how he is going to wrap it. he has emotional displays when difficultd with a questions. host: will in louisiana, appreciate your call this morning. the jobless benefits ended last night. u.s. jobless benefit pushed off pushes millions to financial cliff edge. megan myers single mom from nebraska thought she could get some respite. the daily struggle to house and aed her two kids during lateric crisis, but days president trump said he would law.ign the new bill into that bill still not signed as of midnight last night. those jobless benefits suspended or ended at midnight last night. let's hear from carmen in the bronx who does say diversity does matter in cabinet picks. caller: you are a great host and do is john. my first comment i would like to thank you terms of -- to the 80 million americans who took trump out of office. thank you to the 80 million diverse americans took trump out of office. the celebrations that took place all over the country shows there was no fraud. he just lost. for many republican, trump was hit -- was their lord and savior. in terms of cabinet, there have asian oren -- being an native american, or a woman, or a gay person, they were not given that chance even when they were the best. they were like you are the best but you cannot play. took 2020 before we could find qualified african-americans? they were always there. is putting in people who are already the best. maga is a semi white nationalist movement and he knew how to play to them. they will never understand how he lost. he literally is their lord and savior. -- jasonkham, illinois says diversity does not matter. tell us why. caller: i believe diversity does not matter because like tom said, they selected him for secretary of agriculture and i -- tom was in obama's administration. isy keep saying like biden trying to bring back obama era officials. actually helped pick some of those cabinet members, some of those appointees that obama appointed so biden has a close relationship with them. i think biden is doing a good job with diversity. i am a black as well, but i think if a white person is more qualified to lead and a black person, then i will choose the white person over the black person. white -- race does not matter. does matter, it but at the end of the day you have to pick qualified officials and i think that is what biden is doing. host: arlington, virginia, undecided line. go ahead. caller: i thought the other color hit the nail on the head. it diversity is important in some aspects but this administration might have the wrong idea about diversity. diversity in thought is not solely tied to the color of your skin. they have done a decent job in picking some members so far, that i think some of the similar sentiment of other colors, the callers, the idea of qualifications first. i think it is ultimately a balancing act. but are doing an ok job, there needs to be deeper thought into some of the qualifications. the interior on secretary pick -- of the headline is nomination of first native american secretary brings hope, tears and defiance. inive americans celebrated play bluff. where haalland grew up. moments haaland's name started trending. she posted day split screen raising a fist and crying. the emotional outpouring arose from a people who have internalized their brutal place in american history -- a forced death march of nearly 50,000 for thousands of miles from the south to the west -- on top of that children were required to attend reeducation camps where they were severed from their native tongues and culture. with little representation in federal government, nearly 2.5 became a since america nation, people were surprised a woman who grew up on tribal land might represent them in the cabinet. the is teresa asking about diversity in the biden cabinet, does it matter? caller: i think it does, especially if you listen to tvir stories they told on about how they grew up, many were immigrants, a lot of them up by poor orught uneducated parents. they have gone through all the adversities. i think they need to be represented because that is america. florida, this is kenneth. caller: i do not think diversity matters. i think people need to be in the government with people who look and act just like them. i do not inc. at shed matter at all. not think it should matter at all. note, if you will allow me, -- anyway, have a good day. -- inkenneth on florida florida. jerry tweets if you have a well-qualified and diverse staff , it provides a level of preparation that a homogenous group cannot. violet said's monolithic team only creates monolithic -- said monolithic teams only create yes,ithic solutions so, diversity matters. a professioned when it was still overwhelmingly the-dominated, i have seen positive effect of women's point of view." really a thingt that happens when everybody in the room is a neoliberal into the people who are not are put in positions they want to be put "n. we move on to rosetta in new rochelle, new york. caller: good morning. happy holidays. happy kwanzaa. i think diversity is a good thing. we are all different people in this country and we should be open to different diversity. is concerned,p someone mentioned earlier on they call that biden has dementia or something like that. i do not think that is the case. i think he is the president-elect and he will be on january 20 sworn in. trump is the one who has the problem. he continues to have the problem. thisll not vote -- sign paper, but all the times that people were arguing over how much to give for the stimulus -- him and mnuchin are good friends. why didn't he discuss that with him all the time they were deliberating? now he wants to hold this up. he does not want to give you $2000. 11thhe will do is at the hour he will sign this bill for essay "thed probably , -- and probably say -- host: thank you. bobbitt in michigan. michigan. caller: the rockthrowing would never stop. reality today suggests affirmative action is a reason topreclude college entrance whites and asian americans. amazing the libertarian -- liberal mentality would admit to such perversion and racism. you are excluding whites and asians because of their race, their ethnicity. that is racist, short -- sir. here is what she had to say when her pick was unannounced. >> i am humbled and honored by the trust you have placed in me to become a member of your cabinet as ambassador to the knighted nations. in the years i have worked in government, i am always struck by only in america we would be where we are today, where life can be hard and cruel but there is hope in the struggle. there is promise in our dreams, where you learn to believe in yourself and that anything is possible. like both of you learned from my family. president-elect, thank you for those generous words you said about me. my parents had very little where we grow up but they gave me everything they had and i know how proud they would be of this day. @csp on twitter, it is anwj. minorities over the years. -- i lookedations qualifications." important because it better reflect the diversity in the u.s.. " " diversity comes in several forms. if you do not have diversity of thought, do you really have diversity?" caller: this is a yes and no question. way, -- say had that host: make sure you turn down the volume when you get through on the phone. to texas, teresa, go ahead. caller: happy holidays, everybody. one thing that i truly cannot understand why on earth evendent trump was ever allowed to run for president. one, it should have been so obvious that there would be so much conflict of interest. anyone with an eighth-grade education can see that. --o not know where a everyone is coming from -- he makes money off of being the president and people are gullible enough to think he does not take a salary and this and that. there is so much laundering of money going on with him and all countries.ifferent it is a sad shame. being sog about him smart and the greatest businessman ever. i don't know too many businessmen who go bankruptcy to our three times. his reputation is horrible with the banks. he has to do all his basic money loaning and getting money from different countries and what have you. no one knows out there where and what and how the united states money is going. host: we are spending the last 15 minutes of this hour or so with you talking about picks in the biden administration. it does diversity matter? if you say yes, (202) 748-8000. , (202) 748-8001. , (202)re undecided 748-8002. " they are the parties most solid voting demographic and the most dissatisfied with the change the party has delivered them. in south carolina the state that helped propel mr. biden to the democratic nomination and where about half of the democratic electorate is black voters complain of receiving campaign promises from politicians while they are running but not being prioritized once they are elected. there are similar grievances among voters in cities like milwaukee, detroit and philadelphia." knowing this is the first time an american president has sent an openly gay person to -- senate for i remember being 17 years old and seeing an appointee of clinton who was turned away because he was gay. at the time i had no aspirations anythingappointed to -- appointed by the president to anything, still i watched that story and i learned something about some of the limit that existed in this country when it comes to who is allowed to belong. just as important, i saw how those limits could be challenged. helpecades later, i cannot but think of a 17-year-old somewhere who may be watching right now, someone who wonders where or whether they belong in the world or even in their family and i'm thinking about the message today is sending to them, so thank you esther president-elect for honoring mr. commitment -- president-elect for honoring your commitment to diversity and thank you madam vice president-elect for your encouragement and friendship. the line for your comments by text, (202) 748-8003. no.ie says " --"rsity for its own sake yes, it does, " matter. we are a diverse country. " governments, " a representative -- it implements more exclusive policies and leaders from diverse backgrounds better serve the american people. larry is in new jersey. go ahead. ofler: the concept diversity, many may not be seeing it the way it is. arersity implies these people not of the predominance. the predominance often have success dictated on the privilege that of us are afforded, whereas those from diverse backgrounds often times their success is because of the extra effort, labor, talent, abilities and the strides they made against all that advisory. they can bring that to the table. being able to be open minded biden for president-elect to be looking into that pool of talent and effort in bringing that forth, that is a good idea. best talent pool. any employer should do that. the previous administration we had so much cronyism and other reasons people were put in these positions, so far it looks like the president-elect is trying to get the best talent pool and he is turning to the areas where people had to work harder to get there and be successful. mark in sanl go to jose, california who says diversity does not matter. -- can think about it anybody name a country where the majority wants to be a minority? cannot ever tell you about it because it is like going to china or japan or korea and is saying there are just too many koreans here. we need to exit up a little bit. it up a little bit. oft: here is the headline this piece -- the diversity of biden's cabinet will be just for show if it ends up providing bad policies. it leaves us with a glaring problem. people of color are supposed to be getting excited for the nomination of minorities who policies that often result in the harm of communities of color here and abroad. people of color have one option left -- hope these appoint these make a genuine effort to make the lives of their constituents better. considering our country's putory and its tendency to to prioritize profit, that does not seem very likely." caller: i understand why there is so much weight on aydin to -- on diverse cabinet biden to pick a diverse cabinet. in the obama administration, he had black attorney generals, he defense,secretaries of he had a white vice president, two white secretaries of eight, all of which are qualified. harris, he had a lot of and she was just the most qualified. we should pick qualified -- should we pick qualified candidates or diverse candidates for history record? record?istory to i don't know. pickingbiden is qualified candidates. host: dan is up next in washington dc. good morning. aller: guest: i -- caller: i think it is important to have qualified candidates but it depends on how you define diversity. if you talk about it only on gender or ethnicity lines. you will not get the best candidates. if you are talking about labral's from ivy league schools, -- liberals from ivy league schools, it might limit your ability to have a best candidate that makes a well-rounded cabinet. maybe if you take someone from a non-ivy league school or a different background or skill set, i think that would be a better definition of what diversity is waste not on identity or gender lines. from grand junction, there.o, ron, hi caller: diversity does not creed, race, color, or does not matter. qualifications is what matters. host: ok. expand on that. do you think he is picking mainly for qualifications are mainlydiversity -- or for diversity caller: i think he is picking mainly for diversity over qualifications. i do not think pete buttigieg is qualified for that position. just saying. host: here is missouri. caller: i think kamala harris will be a great vice president. diversity is great and necessary, but these nominations are not about brains. as they are about who cares the most about all their neighbors like the golden rule and has the guts to stand up to the rich and passedl to get policies that benefit everybody. nominee as like a long as they do not put certain issues i think are important in peril. for instance, we need to secure our borders. we can do this without separating families permanently like our crazy president would like to do, but with a bipartisan bill. we do not have enough decent paying jobs for the people living in this country already. throw in automation, we are lucky any working-class people can get a job that is decent. we are on our way to becoming a third world country. host: this is from the tennessean. wait fordline -- details continues as federal team investigates nashville christmas explosion. federal agents are investigating at the christmas day explosion in nashville. they sharpened their focus, investigating and antioch apartment complex. more than 500 citizen tips were driving the investigation. fbi agent staff were collaborating on the case. we will get a call or two more. pennsylvania, go ahead. caller: thank you for having me on the show. i just wanted to say right now what we are going through, i am very undecided of how we should feel about the pick of what biden is doing. in a way, qualifications do matter and diversity does matter. , ust now the mess we are in americans, we need to do better. we really need to do better and we need to start today, make a better world for us because the things going on in this world between this virus, the bombing and all that, we should not live like that. thanks for your call. more ahead here on washington journal. our authors week continues and concludes in the next hour. we are joined by heritage foundation senior fellow mike and zoll as. we will talk to him about his book, -- mike gonzalez. we will talk to him about his book, the plot to change america: how identity politics is dividing the land of the free . later we will talk to tom hartman about this year in politics and the media. ♪ 61 million americans have some form of disability, yet we are in less than 3% of the film and tv shows and the majority of those roles are pretrade by nondisabled actors, so ultimately as somebody with a disability we want to see our ourselves represented. it is going to help destigmatize disability and representation in general gets society used to everybody and ultimately it makes the world a more inclusive place. founded theicki challenge and response to seeing disabilities underrepresented. it tonight on q -- he will talk about this year's entries and winning films. a, he will talk about this year's entries and winning films. tonight on 9:00 p.m. on afterwards, president michael shellenberger on his book apocalypse never why an alarmism hurts us all. he is -- white environmental environmentaly alarmism hurts us all. my views question -- have been badly misrepresented by some people who i think know better who have said "you are insisting it is all nuclear. i did -- lips never, in apocalypse never, i defend indonesia burning coal because burning coal is better than burning wood. i am in favor of natural gas when it replaces nuclear -- replaces coal, i am not in favor of it when it replaces nuclear. >> watch on c-span2. >> washington journal continues. mike our next guest is gonzalez. he is a senior fellow at the heritage foundation and here week to talkthors about his book, the plot to change america: how identity politics is dividing the land of the free. good morning. guest: good morning, bill. host: let's start with definitions first. when you talk about identity politics, define what that means? reimaginingans the of america as a confederation of race, sex,based on ,ational background, gender gender identity, sexual preference, anything that bestows a degree of victimhood on the members of the categories, victimhood, which they can then use to claim respect, attention, or compensatory justice, but not as individuals, as members of the category. host: tell us about the world -- when did you see this plot beginning and who is behind it? guest: it is not that you have meetings in buildings in cambridge, massachusetts on thursday night. it is this idea of using the category as a way to change america, as a way to transform america into something else, to systemically change it. it is a rejection of the individual improving himself or herself into their family and accessing the american dream. the idea here is to change the .ystem and to tear it down that is at the core of critical race theory, identity politics and all the other theories. it is a plot in the sense that the people who propose this, the proponents openly admit to wanting to change america systemically. host: one of the pieces in a your -- in your new book talks about the myth of identity politics. you write that identity politics -- the myth is that it is a grassroots movement, that it is politics responding to demographic shifts in the country and to fighting identity a depraved not only but futile effort. tell us more about that. guest: that is why it needs to be called out. i wrote the plot to change america to expose these myths. one of the reasons it succeeds is it hijacks one of our best impulses as humans and the impulses to be compassionate, to side with the people who need our help,. these ideas did not come from the grassroots. the grassroots were very open that they rejected being seen as marginalized or members of minorities or as victims. they wanted to access the american dream individually through their own agency. these are people who are often times aware that they were discriminated against. yet, they believed they could improve their lot in life individually. collective is imposed by ideologues and activists who have this idea of changing america in mind. it is one of the most important things to call out right away and very aware that our best impulses are being hijacked here. the other one is this idea of a changing demography after the new immigration law necessitated this division of the country into groups. that is not the case. america has demography has been changing since the 1600s. the advent of the arrival of the inmans and scots irish then the 1850's of new germans, about 7 million than the irish because of the potato famine. at ellis island you have a profusion of groups from sicily, eastern europe, hungary. america's demography has always been changing. there is nothing about this new wave that necessitated breaking the country into categories and minorities. here we mentioned briefly two things -- tell us about your immigration background coming to this country, your folks, and secondly there used to be the idea of a melting pot in america. it does that still exist or is that idea still worth having? is one of melting pot the first ideas that is targeted in this new dispensation of politics-- of identity for a reason because the melting pot is about joining the system and improving the system and accessing the system. those who have this in mind do not want to improve the system. they want to change the american system starting with capitalism. these are very marxist ideas. the critical theory on which all this is based is a neo-marxist school. -- i am anory immigrant. i was born in cuba, left at the age of 12, my family went to europe then we came to new york in the early 70's when i had just turned 14. i have this history, if you want to use the history eight -- language of the left it was my lived experience. i was a journalist, i was a foreign correspondent, i was abroad spending the bulk of my time in asia and some reporting in latin america as well. i am able to compare and contrast, am able to see, to compare different models and i believe in america. i believe in the american system . i think this is a fantastic country not just because of the opportunity i give my family to ofape the harsh realities communism and socialism, but also because it has produced a liberty pretty it -- unheard of in the history of mankind. host: mike and zoll's is our ourt -- mike gonzalez is guest. we welcome your calls. , (202) 748-8001. .emocrats, (202) 748-8000 (202) 748-8002. mike gonzalez, you wrote, " our struggle is to realize the promise of a colorblind america where no one either benefits from or is persecuted for their real or attributed traits and to discrimination-- and social injustice persist in america with a new civil rights movement." guest: we have had color cautious laws. we had the era of plus he introduced in the 1880's, this idea we could have separate but equal. the civil rights movement starting with brown then the civil rights act in the 60's producing aout government that lives by the reconstruction amendments, equal protections to all americans. the state exists to protect that natural right no matter what our ground is, no matter what our race is and i think we need to pursue that. due to the betrayal of the civil rights act that we saw soon after with for example the advent of the racial preferences of affirmative action, that is something that rankles many americans. all the polling that has been done once you describe to americans what these racial preferences are it is rejected. we just saw in california whereby an 11 point margin californians in the bluest to stay in the union rejected affirmative action. host: i want to go to the election. the day after the election we had a piece in the wall street junior -- wall street journal -- , identitybig loser politics. in the days since the election, view been bolstered? guest: even some districts in philadelphia, that are heavily puerto rican had a swing towards trump. alexandria ocasio-cortez's own district saw a swing towards trump, nothing as humongous as what we saw in the rio grande we saw massive swings towards trump. clinton that hillary had won handily in 2016 and of course you have the example of florida and south florida with many south american and cuban-americans voting for trump in large numbers. puerto rican districts in the i-four corridor between tampa and orlando swinging towards president trump. what we saw then was exactly this rejection i am speaking of of people saying please do not use us as victims. we are going to vote as all other americans. we are going to vote on the economy. we are going to vote to sustain capitalism, to make sure the system of government and our economic system has not changed. americans -- hispanic americans a show every time you pull them is what is most important is the economy, education, which is the ladder to success, health care and do so forth. host: we spent the first hour of their programs begin to our viewers and listeners about the president-elect's picks asking them if diversity matters. yourdiversity matter in opinion for the selection of the president elect or any president coming in? guest: i was listening to that. i was comforted by a lot of people calling in and saying diversity does matter. for example, you need diversity of experience. you need people not just educated at harvard and yale, but you need people who perhaps have not graduated college or have gone to a state school. this idea that we are to be run by anna lead of people who read y'sght singularly from the iv has not been great for swathes of america. need geographical diversity. you need people from appalachia community people from the pacific northwest and new england, not just people from the corridor between washington dc and new york city. in many areas of life, in the newsrooms for example, you need a diversity of views and in academia, in the faculty lounge you need to have a diversity of views, not just controlled by the most extreme aspects of the left, which is what we are seeing in newsrooms today. question onget to a twitter from noah who asked this question " can identity be used to address systemic issues in the united states?" guest: it is not only fine but healthy to take pride in your history. powerful thing. it does empower you to understand your life, your background, the life of your parents and grandparents' struggles in where you got to be where you are. you are a point on that continuum. for that you do not need to rely on the false into synthetic --egories created by the false and synthetic categories created by the office of management and budget. you can be colombian american and take pride in that and use that as fuel for your own success. you can be puerto rican and take huge pride in your traditions. individual agency, individual striving, adopting good habits the habits that lead to success is what leads to success. becoming virtuous first in small ways, practicing, that is what leads to a fulfilling and flourishing life. join aa that you must category often times created by government in order to collectively change the system, i think that is pernicious. gonzalez guest, mike is from the heritage foundation. he is the author of the new book, the plot to change america: how identity politics is dividing the land of the free . and hearto callers first from albert on our democrats line. caller: here is what i have noticed about identity politics. republicans went after what bathroom a transgender person could use. that was identity politics because you did it based on the transgender identity. when trump issued his ban on muslims coming into the country, that was done based on their identity as a muslim. that is identity politics. when in north carolina they pass to their voter restriction, , the northws carolina supreme court said those laws targeted african-americans with almost surgical precision. that is identity politics. why is it that every time liberals, democrats pushed back against these identity politics policies they get accused of playing identity politics when all they are trying to do is stop you all from stripping the rights of people away based on their identity? you for that question. we have very good laws on the book about not singling people out according to their race or sex or their national origin. we need to enforce those laws throw the buck at any entity that makes decisions based on someone's background at anyce -- the book entity that makes decisions based on someone's background or race. the identity politics i am referring to is that we are a confederacy of categories with varying degrees of victimhood that give us a claim on compensatory justice. withinternet -- intersectionality you can have an olympics of victimhood. that is the identity politics i am referring to. thatutely any entity discriminates -- this is the kind of country we live in. we need to enforce these laws. host: texas is next. rick is on the independent line. caller: i had a question for have on mywhat i mind -- we need diversity in the cabinet. with diversity you have got a different perspective. views are coming from the country. our last cabinet did not have that you had just people who were put in there because they .ere friends it diversity in the cabinet does make a difference. isquestion to mr. gonzalez do you believe that we should give a number, maybe a tax number, driver's license to the 12 million illegals who are here and do you think that is good for the country as far as knowing that the baby boomers are retiring and that we need that incremental income coming in to that social security fund? sustain that social security fund. thank you, color from texas. from texas. embedded in your question is the inhere in that ideas your race. surnameave someone gonzalez who has graduated from harvard and you have someone ised johnson who has -- white and has graduated from harvard and you have an african-american has graduated from harvard, they will have similar views, especially if for example they are liberal, all conservative. it just because they have a different national background, a different country of origin background, different race or different sex does not mean in the least that they are going to have different views. this idea that your race carries ideas with you, that carries ways of thinking is very pernicious and has led to a lot of problems in the last century. if -- we need to put that aside and understand that what we need is a diversity of experience, not so much a numerical proportionale population. i do notal population, deal with that in my book. a generalized amnesty would create a huge wave of people and thatto the is what the history of that proves but i do not deal with that at all in my book. that you say, you write the key in terms of identity politics is to eliminate the economic entitlements of adhering to group identities, which in many instances have been fabricated for the express purpose of dividing us into factions. society must decide to withdraw the inducements to group making to shut down the casinos of identity politics. tell us what you are talking about there. guest: i have a chapter dedicated to this new identity the obama administration try to create, expecting that clinton administration to come in and represent the idea. i look at the debate that took place in 2015 where the census bureau brought in a lot of so-called experts. they ended up being ethnic studies professors and suss tour was one of the peoplethey kept s out there, but i have it transcribed -- they kept saying the middle east and north africa do not want these categories. -- sununu and mcdaniels, people of lebanese want -- ando not they kept saying that the grassroots do not want this then yes, but onceay they start associating being a withof the mena category benefits in hiring, they will love it. these inducements to adhere to the category is one of the things the government should take away because this reimagining of the country has not been good for us because we people fromy of many different ethnic backgrounds. become what the ottoman empire was are the habsburg empire were in the 19th and 20th century where you have different groups with different laws. that would not work at all. pushing back less against the groups that identify with various minority categories and more with the groups that represent claim to those people, organizations that benefit as you pointed out from government funding or grants. is that your charge? host: that is -- guest: that is one of the arguments i make. that is not the only argument i make. a group that is supposed to asianent the views of americans now supports affirmative action, which hurts chinese-americans. they are not responsive to the huge wave of rejection of affirmative action we see amongst chinese-americans across the country. the people who make up these ethnic authority -- ethnic affinity organizations like unidos us. benefit the ones who the most because they have a job for life. these are members of network organizations. it they are more plugged into what is happening in washington dc than they guard to what is happening in the individual districts and neighborhoods -- and they are to what is happening in the individual districts and neighborhoods in this country. caller: hello. my name is terry and i wanted to give my comment on my view on identity politics. i remember when bush senior spoke at a university about how it was going to destroy our in myy along with, opinion, the internet. the people calling in and listening to you are not hearing you. there hearing what the media and politicians are telling them, like the gentleman from illinois with the transgender and the bathroom. safety form is children. any pervert can use that to go into the washrooms. we change the laws on capitol hill to shelter the lawmakers from lying to the public and getting away with it. at the media are destroying our country. identity politics is a terrible thing. host: terry in illinois. mike gonzalez, we have not talked about the role of the media in either promoting or distancing entity politics. caller: thank you for that call -- guest: thank you for that call. what i am saying is jarring for many who have not heard these things before, which is why i wanted to write the plot to change america. i was horrified that these myths had gotten currency in society. huge r.g. -- are proponents of these ideas. they constantly use the term latinx. -- latinx. it is rejected by the people on complex and the media pushes this term. even the term has spanish and latino are not used by cuban-americans, mexican-americans, puerto rican americans. term where did that come from? guest: from hispanic -- host: latinx. is super woke meant to attack that custodian nouns nouns aretilian gendered. you have latina and latino and somee addled mind of professor, that was too exclusive. misunderstanding of how the spanish-language works and i do not think npr should be in the business of changing the language. there's a royal academy in madrid that issues dictates that academics to understand the language of cervantes a lot better. guest, the author of "the plot to change america." -- catherine in line.s, ohio -- democrats' good morning. host: good morning. caller: i think your book is ,ritten so old, white republican males stay in power. if you look at gerrymandering, i imagine at gerrymandering, i imagine you go along with gerrymandering where you can have a black community whereas the people being elected were old white male republicans. woman, i called my congressman and told him three years ago that women, black brown women, hispanic women, asian women, american indian women, we would take out president of the united states and we did and now because we have put in joe biden as president, i don't know if you acknowledge him as president or not -- i really don't care. we want a diverse cabinet. we want people who represent us and our ideas. it our money that is sent to washington and we want the money to come back to us. we want all the health care we can get. this president has made a mockery out of the health care system. we have -- my grandson -- give -- he is an icu nurse in the greater cincinnati area and he informed us -- i did not see him over the holidays, but i did speak to him, and he said he has not had one patient, not one, sir, not one, who has left the icu that has not gone in a body bag. yet, we could not get this administration to say coronavirus. they call it china virus. host: kathryn in ohio. any response? merry christmas to you. thank you for your call. we have some ground of agreement. i hate gerrymandering is much as you do. i think the racial gerrymandering we have seen is one of the reasons we have the polarization we have in america , a district for which nobody can really compete produces politicians to go to washington your -- you feel no need to reach across the aisle, either to the left or the right. that is a big problem in this country. is ai want to see .uccessful government we see where ideas or creative matter theires not background, their sex, the color that is truly the america i want and the america a lot of people whom i know on the left and the right want. host: pennsylvania, republican line, this is bob. caller: yes, hi. thank you for taking my call. there are a couple points i would like to make. i remember reading a study on race. they determined the was more diversity within a single race than between races, which makes you think that we all come from a common ancestor. we see inerences that skin color and eyes and hair and whatnot is really secondary and we are so much more alike. that is one point. gonzalez whenr. he says about certain ethnic thinking a certain way -- i don't believe that. i believe we should have a colorblind america, like martin luther king said. when you point is, look at who graduated from the etc.eague school and etc., one of the most important things , intelligence does not run parallel with character. ,either does race, ethnicity but character is extremely important and one of the things people look at when they choose people for these posts and i will leave it to mr. gonzalez. host: ok, bob, thank you. guest: bob, what a great point you make about character. character is really -- really anyone who has a contract, ,bsolutely is what you said that we all come from the same the more we learn, the more we see scientifically it ,as an original female ancestor and we are all the same. it is our humanity that we share. --links all $7 billion of us 7 billion of us on earth. host: mike in georgia. go ahead. caller: there are so many issues intoseem to have come focus here. when you are hiring a cabinet, sureng a cabinet, you make that the people you are pulling the cabinet from his diverse. race ort let -- use anything but confidence to pick the -- competence to pick those officers, and if you start getting diverted into all of this race or anything else other than qualifications -- so, you picked the best qualified -- and i mean, there is never going to be a time that you do not devote a certain amount of time making sure your diverse city matches -- diversity matches, but the real thing we all have to worry about is policy right now because what we have is this huge divide between the common and the top half a percent or .1% and the policy changes need to be made because the middle class was built by policy andges during the 1930's 1940's that brought about the .iddle-class great question. this is a very high caliber audience you have here, bill. , alonglity to perform with the character that bob spoke about earlier, i think that is what is needed, not only a courts,inet, but in in an office, in a legislature. i live and work in the washington area. you do have a permanent administrative state that really must run and believes it has the right to run the government and , as you said, kerry, the divide between the elite on the common man, which is something we have seen, not just in the last four years, but the last two years. it illustrates one of the fishers we have in society and we need to address that with a diversity of backgrounds, a diversity of educational backgrounds, not just cruising with these people monolithic mindset of new york and washington. i think that is what the country needs. about thate ask you political accountability. in your "wall street journal" opinion piece you said identity politics lost. looking ahead to the biden administration, do you see identity politics being used parties during the biden administration? isst: i think the country rejecting this. my book is selling well because, likeeasons that i don't necessarily, we had a very tumultuous year and i think we see not just from the right, but among the left, many people on the left like steven pinker, michael lynn, professors who are or left of center, with whom i people with with -- whom i don't agree a lot on many things, but they do agree identity politics is a problem that it threatens our liberal democracy. it expressly threatens the idea we are based on natural rights and the people are rude -- rejecting this. it is bucking what the people want. not just steven pinker from harvard. an 11 point margin a resounding failure. there is a grassroots campaign where people were able to defeat this. reallyt see a leadership doubling down on identity politics. they do it at their own peril. me ask you about the that from another political ncience professor in a opinion post. --t identity politics "identity politics keeps america healthy." he says there's always a group on the margins pressing for a place at the american table. formerly enslaved people, eachgender individuals -- group rattles the establishment and provokes culture clashes, but they add up to a vibrant, changing, open society. new groups inject fresh energy and ideas and they face from pete pushback from the powers and -- grumpy pushback from the powers. misreading is a deep of the historical record. our demography has been churning from the beginning, but nobody, the 1910s nobody in 1890's thought, let's have all of these people come through ellis island and have them denoted as marginalized victims and instill them with grievances so they can change the country from within. it was the opposite that was done, just as was the opposite done with the scandinavians and the germans and the irish and the scots irish. it was an extended hand saying, you join us, you become americans. this, bycountry does the way. this is my experience as a foreign correspondent -- i can tell you, having lived in many different european and asian unique in we were extending this welcome to newcomers. identity politics is a departure from the model, to say this is what has been done for centuries -- it must be a deliberate misreading and that authors use shows wherelatinx his political bias lies. to bob in tyler, texas on the republican line. caller: yes, good morning. in the like to ask -- first sentence of the u.s. code -- would get -- up a bob, you are breaking little bit. go ahead and rephrase your question. caller: ok, let me try again. we keep asking what we need and i would like to ask -- there are two laws in the first sentence of the u.s. code. do we need or can we trust anyone that does not know those first two laws? and i would like to ask if you know them? host: the first two words in what, bob? inler: the first two laws the first sentence in the entirety of u.s. code. throw my going to hands up. my gonzalez, do you want to take a shot at that? guest: can you rephrase that? in what? host: in the u.s. code? guest: i don't know. int: we will go to james charlotte, north carolina. james, go ahead. caller: you have a failure to face reality and what you are saying and riding. i think you are confusing culture with race and it's obvious to me that you are. saying that identity politics lost. no, it won. white identity is still dominant, but that is the dominant political structure of the country, financial, and they whatevernating minority groups try to enter, and to say, it's all about race. sununu. you probably consider yourself white and you are from cuba. they do not consider themselves to be white. have black people in his entire cabinet. he was very emphatic and putting a white cabinet together but i say,ot hear a guy like you where is the diversity of that. forget about racism. think about the diversity of thought. i think like you are really big bigots dressed up in a real nice suit that hides it. host: i am going to cut you off and let mike gonzalez respond to that. truly i don't think he's seeing me. if you thinks i wear nice suits -- i wear quite old suits. attempt to answer this two ways. i think there's a big difference between race and culture and i think culture really does matter . with regard to -- if you practice these these.you will avoid i had the opportunity to be in the room with dr. ben carson. he's a very active member of the cabinet. he's a brilliant surgeon. he also happens to be african-american. but that is not as important that he is a man of character and a brilliant person and a great american. and i'm going to leave it there i was lucky enough to work at the state department with condoleezza rice, a woman the abilityed with and character. .hat is what mattered to me you write in the book that there is a fundamental problem and blacks, and yet -- the gross ine of america has been different in kind, not just degree from any other ethnic group. you write that this is the reason why there is not a chapter on this area tell us more about those notifications -- about that. that is the one unique group in america whose ancestors -- african-americans are a group of people whose ancestors were brought against their will and have a history of harrowing experiences. with slavery, jim crow, separate segregation,gal and this is something we have for.s strived when you look at the 1960's and , you have these activists and ideologues saying, the members of my category suffered equally. drawns a false analogy with the experience of african-americans and that is how it was done with every group . jane crow and the law, extending to white womanea women in thiste country. this is not to minimize the fact that women have been discriminated against. mexican americans, especially , the southernh border areas in texas, faced discrimination. black americans suffered uniquely and that is something we are still living with the consequences of that. falset to point out this analogizing. mark from saint peters, missouri, republican line. yes, thank you for taking my call. i have a couple points and i would like to hear your comments. think thatl, i don't america really should be looked at anymore as a melting pot and i like to look at it more as a salad where all of the ingredients are mixed together but they retain their individual properties. and i think that is a big representative bobby gentles said it best when he said immigration without assimilation is basically an l said it-- bobby jinda best when he said immigration without assimilation is basically an invasion. i would like you to comment on the news media's role on how the country views things because they are trying to control the narrative of what the american people think. if you could comment on that i would really appreciate it. , mark.hi thank you for that call. i completely agree with you with the idea of the salad, which is more the canadian model, does not fit. we have many people who should with commond purposes. i think we saw a little of that in my wall street journal piece. you had that in the rio grande valley, in these counties that were heavily mexican american. it was not just as mexican-americans -- they voted as texans. devoted as tejanos. they may have these surname but there ancestors may be crossing in 1598 across the rio grande. i think that that is -- you saw a pushback against this idea of the salad model rather than the melting pot. nobody gets out and uruguay or says i wantugal and to emigrate with my family to the united states because i want my children to grow up there to be victims, marginalized, and yet this is the central idea in identity politics. nature,derstands human which is why it needs the system of rewards and things of that nature because otherwise it falls apart. people just want their children to succeed. carolina, republican line. caller: d you think that gerrymandering is a response to identity politics? is treatingt racism people differently and at the border, for example, i don't see people letting in white people or other types of people and not letting in others, so i don't see racism on that point. i will end it there. mike gonzalez, your response? guest: you're absolutely right on gerrymandering. this goes back to the reinterpretation of the voting rights act that introduces districts that are 85% one category, mexican-american, cuban-american, what have you. at all not a good idea because it produces politicians who really have no reason to lines tooss the racial is introduced, but are very responsive to a race. immigration, we should have a admits people who improve america. we should think about what is in it for the united states and the national interest. host: you think the identity politics came into play -- really in the almost year-long undocumentedhether immigrants should be included in the census count? yes, i think we ask all of these questions in the census, whether someone is hispanic, for example, which is category created by the office of management and budget in 1977. we should look at whether they or not. impact they recommend that countries do that. many countries do that without any controversy. host: our guest here, mike gonzalez, author of thom hartmann -- "the plot to change america: how identity politics is dividing the land of the free ." guest: thank you. host: we're joined next by syndicated radio talk show host thom hartmann. be here to talk to us about the year in politics and the role of the media. that's coming up next. ♪ >> the growth of the telemedicine industry during the pandemic. is this iss means not an abstract notion. i am vaccine patients at the office at 40% of our previous volume and when we get a little more cranked up we will be at 75%. telehealthhave embedded in our workflows. we will be in trouble and our patients will be an even more trouble. p.m. monday night at 8 --tern on c-span two c-span2. exploring the people and events that tell the american story every weekend. at 4 p.m. eastern on "reel america," jacqueline kennedy of us if goodwill tour --kennedy's goodwill tour. take a virtual tour of the dwight d. eisenhower presidential museum located in abilene, kansas, showcasing the legacy of the 34th resident. watch an american history tv today on c-span3. >> you're watching american history tv. all weekend, every weekend on c-span 3. "washington journal" continues. host: joining us now, thom hartmann. host of the thom hartmann program. for being here. guest: thanks, bill. host: i am pretty sure that we have covered your program in political years, but i think this is your first time on "washington journal." you're right. i have been on c-span a number of times. i did an interview with brian a number of years ago. and familiarlks with your program, tell us about it. guest: i am a progressive commentator. i am an old news guy. i used to work in radio news back in the 1960's and 19 70's. we started the program 18 years ago. that became the business plan for air america. i was suggesting progressives could do good on radio just like conservatives. i started my show before air america started up. they called me in as a consultant. a proofrted my show is of concept, just to see if we could make it work. onhin a few months we were 29 stations, on sirius xm -- this was back in 2003, and you know, it was started on a lark. when moved to vermont. we retired. we said, let's have some fun. here we are 18 years later and still doing it. and now it's everywhere. it just grows and grows and grows. host: your show is kind of all over the place. you are a syndicated program. you are on sirius xm, you are on commercial and noncommercial stations, correct? guest: right. really substantial commercial progressive stations in the country, the largest in minneapolis, but there are others around the country. on a whole bunch of those and a lot smaller ones. in portland we have the low bar on and we are also pacifica stations, nonprofit stations all over the country. kpfk inest affiliate is kpfk in los -- is angeles. satelliter direct dish on hulu and a bunch of other places. "talk" is the trick obligation of your business. the top talkers. .here's a bunch of programs not surprising, rush limbaugh, 15 point i've million listeners. you were at number 10. i point this out because in the top 10 -- you are the one liberal talk show host. why do you think you are the only one standing there in the top 10? back in 1984, the number -- helk show in america did not cover the entire country, but he covered at least 26 states -- was alan berg. he was progressive. there was a fair amount of .rogressive radio he was famously assassinated by . couple skinheads they made a movie about it "talk radio." in 1984, rush limbaugh started his show and it did well and ee, talky thought, oh, g radio works. liberals were afraid of going back on the air for fear of being assassinated. limbaugh a revived a.m. radio. he is an incredibly talented man for whom i have terrible -- i have tremendous respect. it's unfortunate he is dying right now. i don't know him personally, but i wish him well. is, that wasne , 1987, the fairness doctrine, really i do not think it had much to do with it. but in 1996, there was -- with the telecommunications act there was massive consolidation to the you have most of countries -- and they had built the second-largest company. i met with a u.s. senator. he had not only bought the radio stations. .e had but westwood one i said if you've got 700, 800, 900 radio stations and probably a couple hundred have conservative programming and i will have liberal programming. he looked at me straight in the face and said, non-. i'm not when to put anyone on the air who wants to raise my taxes. york and sat new next to a senior executive with salem and said, hey, dennis are --s show and others and others are ron. i used to debate michael medved all the time. on his show and mine. you put progressives on? you said we only put people who hold christian values on the air. i am a christian. i was the pastor of a church. and he said, no, no, you can't be christian and be a liberal. and he said, you will create brand confusion. aat you are seeing now is not lack of listeners, who are doing really well where we are on the air. ofare seeing a lack companies were willing to put progressive voices on the air and i think that's really unfortunate. host: our guest is thom hartmann , nationally syndicated radio host out of portland. we're talking about the state of the media and politics in 2020, 2021. here are the lines. 202-748-8001 four republicans, 202-748-8000 four democrats, and for independents 202-748-8002. let's go back to rush limbaugh. a lot of people have written that he, in that show, tapped into something that folks listening were not getting at the time from the national news. they were getting his take on the news and reporting on the he tapped into something that no other host at .hat point had really done i bounced around to progressive, rock, and rock 'n i helpedions and then daily talkck drake's show. he did a one-our talk show every afternoon at 3:00 and i was the guy who helped put it together and line-up guests and make sure the tape delay was working. it was more of an aesthetic man a law. the fairness doctrine did say if station management offered an opinion, which was typically , ifented as an editorial station management or ownership offered an opinion, then the station had to offer equal time to a dissenting opinion, and the owner of the station would say -- when i worked in lansing, in fact i helped produce -- it was a local family. they named the station after their son and he would come on and offered his opinion about the mayor or whatever and then they would get somebody who likes the mayor to come on and give them equal time. that equal time role only applied to the ownership of the station. it did not apply to everyone else. people think that doing away doctrine inrness the summer of 1987 takes the way for rush limbaugh. there's really no relationship tween the two. h,t prior to limbaugh's iconoclastic liberals -- alan burke, howard stern, and howard stern even doing a lot of progressive talk radio, although a lot of it in this first with music, but he had been doing that for years. smith group, which rush limbaugh promoted aggressively that liberals had no interest and they all had npr anyway and -- he knows this dialogue isn't true. talk radio is not so much about offering content. i will go through a stack of stories in the course of a show. what good talk radio is about is taking calls from listeners, debating listeners, it's community. whether people are politically i get a lot of conservatives to call into my program. we are right next to a station.ive we are on progress 127, 128, 129 . of conservatives calling. i really like that. when they call in, they always go to the front of the line because i think having conversations where there is some conflict and i don't be people up or yell at them or call them idiots, but where , brightenssagreement issues. it informs people. to bringes both sides out actual facts rather than slogans. i think that's a good paying and conservatives want community on progressives -- progressives want community on radio just like conservatives do. which is why it does well in the cities where is well-established. host: the reach of radio in the nielsen, at least, measurements of radio, they are just shy of six hours with their tv connected devices. radio commands nearly 12 hours .f our weekly media diet that's capitalizing on opportunities knowing who is listening to what when. the news format remains the most popular genre. does that surprise you at all? no. no, i thinkuest: radio is very important -- powerful stuff. you can get battery operated radios that you hang in your shower. people listen to the radio, you're moving around the house, doing things -- host: but certainly the radio's death has been pronounced multiple times during your career? guest: yeah, yeah. dyingot dead and it ain't . were doing well. we are also simulcast as tv on free speech but we have a live stream on twitter and facebook we youtube and on youtube have got -- i don't remember the numbers. on yourat time are you national syndicated show? guest: new into three eastern. host: great. thom hartmann our guest until 10:00 eastern. this is stephen on the democrats line. guest: hey, stephen. caller: good morning. i would like to thank thom for being on the air. he cleansed the palette of the last guy you had on. i listen to him in chicago. the rush limbaugh stuff, i apologize -- i will go and pushesto him and he just all of this stuff onto liberal like we hate america and we are these old is actually white guys who stamp their feet and threw a tantrum because they cannot stand the changes happening in america. i guess that about wraps that up, so thank you. guest: thank you, steve. host: go ahead. that's fine. guest: just, sadly, one of the memes that is sold on talk radio -- i got an emailed this morning from donald trump. i gave him five dollars during the primary in 2015 and i have been getting 10 emails a day ever since. i got a fund-raising emailed today. it started right out "liberals hate you." we are going to end up like cuba and mostly they just hate you. and -- at least once a week i getting email from truck -- is behind your idea of giving him five dollars during the primaries? guest: i do that typically with everyr five candidates four years just to get on their email list and see what they are saying. host: and never get off, i guess, right? guest: it provides good raw material for the show. sometimes these emails i get are just outrageous and ever since the election, they all point to rush limbaugh -- two donald slush fund that he has now raised, what? $400 million for for his was presidency -- post-presidency? host: maryland, republican line. good morning. i will not listen to anybody who calls me a racist, sexist homophobe. i get into plenty of arguments with my liberal neighbors are thet various things and second they disagree with me i am one of those labels. the reason i listen to rush limbaugh, i love his sense of humor and i'm going to tell you a story about what happened to me because i listen to rush limbaugh. in 1993 my liberal wife could not stand me even listening to him even with headphones. she gave me an ultimatum. it was either her, the marriage, or rush limbaugh. i chose rush limbaugh, because i want my freedom of speech and freedom of thought. i don't need to be told he is a bad individual. what of the funniest things he ever did was, for me, as a blind person, he was talking about somebody wanting to do a movie called "dumpster diving." he said why don't you take that money and open up more soup kitchens and help the homeless that way instead of making a movie? host: victor in silver spring. thom hartmann, any comment? guest: i listen to rush limbaugh from time to time, to your will. i think he's a very, very talented guy. i disagree with his politics. i respect him. , i other guy i listen to have not had an opportunity so michael savage. michael savage and rush limbaugh. big problem. i am not sure why my computer is making that noise. host: go ahead. guest: i don't think it's on my end. it must've been something else. host: you were talking about michael savage. guest: they get talk radio in this is the problem we had with air america. there were three professionals. the people who put the thing together, you would have people like al franken's show where he would sit around interviewing people. that's not talk radio. talking not to an audience -- i am talking to one person. of one person.ng if i thought about how big the and rush limbaugh is brilliant at that. o you listen to npr's talkshows? guest: i haven't listened to lived in d.c.ce i -- i used to listen to tavis smiley and diane lane. diet -- diane rehm. diane is no longer on the air now. they were hitting a lot of buttons. by a large him pr does not do interviews and news. i do listen to the news in the morning to catch up. host: on our democrats line, we have nina. good morning. caller: good morning. hartmann.ng, mr. show on freenly speech i watch. it seems like you are more fair than the other host. you take calls the matter who was to talk. i wanted -- wants to talk. are we ever going to get a president that is not so old that has regressive and middle-of-the-road ideas and what you think about that? thank you and thank you for your show. guest: thank you. thank you for your kind comments. i'm very optimistic about the future. i think what trump has shown us are the places where we have relied onlly andition rather than law now it's time to put those things into law. we had a similar experience in the 1930's. george washington said he would not vote for a third term, i don't think it is appropriate. everyone has honored that. ipublicans went crazy and forget the year, but within a decade or 20, the next time the gop got control of the house and a it, they passed constitutional amendment saying you can only have two terms as president. they tried to repeal that, by the way, in the last year of the reagan presidency, but it was not successful. but that's an example of putting , into law.d policy what trump has done is break so many norms that i think a lot of things, particularly around dividing independence to the justice department, need to be fixed. in terms of what that means for president who is more reasonable ,nd reaches across the aisle i've a lot of hope for kamala harris. she has surrounded herself with really good people. she's really, really bright. i am hopeful she will walk in as president of the senate, push aside mitch mcconnell in early january. time will tell. that is tradition. the constitution says she will be president of the senate, which is a whole other conversation, but the fact that these conversations are happening is encouraging and joe is taking positions now that are -- you might call them progressive, they are considered normal and every other developed country in the world. we are literally the only developed country on earth out oecd countries, we are the only one where anybody has lost their health care because of this virus, where they lost their job. we are literally the only country in the world that doesn't say that health care is a right for all people. we are also the only country among all developed countries were student debt is any kind of a consequential thing. student$1.5 trillion in debt in this country right now. by coincidence, the exact amount donald trump and the republicans gave to the billionaire class in the giant tax cut in 2017, and the average age of home ownership has gone from 29 in the 1970's when we bought our first house in our late 20's, it has gone from 29 to 44. it's mostly because of student debt. you have an entire generation hobbled by this. that literally does not exist in any other developed country in the world. in denmark, they pay you $500 a month to go to college. in germany, they give you a stipend to go to college. these physicians in an american dialogue appear to be presented -- physicians in american dialogue that appear to be presented as radical, lefties stuff are normal. they are just normal. think -- i still have to make this point and i will talk it back. i am sorry if i'm talking too long here. this point that there is a radical left in america is -- i just find very, very strange. i used to call myself the radical middle because on one the, i decided to get on resident of the communist party of the united states. that's the radical left. they believe the government should on every company. blue jeans should be made by the government, my computer should be made by the government. i don't agree with that at all. i got the president of the cp usa on the program and he said, how is communism doing? we are growing like weeds. i said, really. he said, i think we are up to 620 members now. this whole idea of radical left or that we are making sure that police don't kill black people or that police are seen as evenhanded when it comes to race or neighborhood or class -- how did that become radical or even left?d -- even i don't get it. or i do get it. there are right host: this is thomas from the republican line. caller: what we need to talk about is a new talent for you have tooecause many people looking at it. i think that it should be, you put social security at the top of the card and you send two to the people, democrat and republican, social security at the top. itn they go down to shoot, it's stacked up right and left pretty keep the democrats on the right and they go in one building. and then the television could watch it. the television will tell the public that is going on it if anybody wants to challenge it, you bring in people who are organized to see if the machine is cricket or not. ann this way you can have honest ballot and get rid of all of the people looking at it. when you take your money to the bank, are they going to count it? host: just broadly, thomas, thom hartman, your thoughts on the postelection challenges to the win? guest: i have been a fan of paper ballots forever. i never thought we should have gotten into the territory that of voting that is owned by private companies. agree, and i think that the things that we all collectively known in this country are clearly the government. we all own the government, we tell them what to do through the vote, and the government administers the public lands and the quality of air and water in the public schools, then the isimate part of the commons our vote, the beating heart of democracy. a man's voteway you reduce him to slavery. the vote should never be given to a private corporation. that part should never have been privatized which is what we did in 2000 two. i think people should be voting on paper. i live in oregon, for over 20 years we vote on paper here. six weeks before the election i book, eight and a newsprint kind of book, with all of the candidates, if there is a judge i do not know. we sit down at the table in google them and figure out who they are. we can see when the ballot gets received by the state and see if it it's counted by the state or if it was reject did. then i can go down to the office and show them my id. oregon has among the highest participation in voting in the nation. now we have five states, utah, oregon, washington, colorado and hawaii are all doing this. free, not that there is really any voting fraud out there. they found that one guy in pennsylvania who registered his dead mother and then voted for donald trump. texas,rick, down in offered $1 million reward for anyone to find voter freud -- fraud. the courts saying show us one example where you can show this happened, and that trump administration has been unable to. pennsylvania is now saying we got this one guy. to rush limbaugh for a second, he recently, on his program, he said touting efforts to subvert the election, he bemoans that that trick seat supporters are coming across as --trump supporters are coming across as kooks. in two thousand four, we were wondering if ken blackwell was up to shenanigans in ohio with the john kerry election, so this is not unique. we have never had a president, a leader of the party, in the case of 2000, it would've been al gore, in two thousand four, john kerry, who said to the american people, do not trust the election system. we have that right now. regardless of politics, i think that is really dangerous. host: john is calling from ohio. mythr: i think there is a that the right ring that dominates the media in this country, that they are the underdog. if you examine the number of right wing stations, they number over 1000, dominated by right s, just clearw host' out to the horizon. they spent a good part of their time saying they are the underdog and it is all liberal media. i think i hear that kind of line parroted by millions of people that they are misleading, but if you look at some of the real they do not hardly exist anywhere in the media like global research or information clearinghouse. leftistht be considered . but they are completely censored from the media. you'll never hear any of their accredited historians, any of the media completely censored by google, facebook and twitter owned by these billionaires who are collaborating with the state department to censor the left. i think it is a tactic that these right wing talk show host used to portray themselves as the underdog. host: we will get a response. guest: one of the things that politicians and talk show host try toways done is create a david and goliath story. you know, i am the underdog, the perky underdog trying to climb up against this mountain in the system is rigged against us. i'm not such a fan of that rhetoric. i do not generally get into it. , globale a few examples research, actually they do some iconoclastic you might say. withnot so concerned censorship as i am just with the consolidation. published, the media is one of the biggest monopolies. the result of that is competent progressive voices, and i'm not the only one, there are a lot of good ones out there, who could beat making money for radio balance and providing on the airwaves, are not on because you have corporations, a couple of these companies, and i just shared those stories with you. putting their own ahead of whatever, what i think is the public good. i think we need to have these dialogues. i will leave it at that. topic, there was a piece about monopolies particularly about the big cap there wasmpanies, and a report out of the hearing with some of the big tech leaders. american democracy has always been at war against monopolies, and it was noted that big tech platforms like the trust of the toded age enjoy the power pick winners and losers, shake down small businesses, and their ability to call the shots up and entire sectors in inspire fear and represent the powers of a private government. your thoughts. guest: there is something to that. europe is taking on a spec and google right now and sniffing around apple for those kinds of things. year.ot recall the i think it was before trump became president, but just before. google stopped indexing a couple of left-wing sites. they had pretty rigorous fact checkers, alternet did. as result, these were left-wing websites that were supported by advertising, and their traffic down so badly they ended up, the group that owned it, ended up selling it. they basically threatened to put them out of business and that was true of several of the left-wing sites. at the same time there were some right-wing sites, to the extent they were offering opinion, or --were doing that just as much as alternet was. but they got elevated into the newsfeed and the left-wing sites got promoted out of it. media matters did several stories on this back in the day. that concerned me. it continues to concern me. it certainly appears like political bias driving decisions in search engines. you hear things like that about facebook also. think we need some oversight. i am very wary. colleagues' wariness of the government making these decisions. i do not want any government deciding what i should say on the air. or what news agency should be considered acceptable or unacceptable. it concerns me tremendously. i think the core problem is not censorship or google deciding , you know,want to spider alternet. the problem is the concentration companiesds of four of well over 90% of the social media, in the hands of a half-dozen companies. most of the news, the concentration and the ownership of radio stations, mostly in three companies, and television stations, two or three. these are the things that lead to these kinds of disequilibrium. host: this is bill from virginia on the democrat line. go ahead. i tuned in when you were .alking about radio talk shows whether thereg was something indicating by the radio station itself that they are not responsible for what is being said on a particular show. is there such a thing? but wheney used to be, we listen to the radio years ago, they would say we are not responsible for what is being said. now you are talking about the problem with the election result. simply too much money and politicalower in the system in this country. topic inisit his first terms of what people can say on the air and what they can't. what are you mindful of in terms of the content you allow and that you are mindful of how people address issues or how they address you and each other? guest: we are on broadcast stations and every year or two the fcc is supposed to evaluate stations in each station has to keep a public file which is where members of the community can complain about the station. years, those complaints are almost exclusively about obscenity on the air. as aical content legitimate complaint to take over the license of a radio station, i have not seen any indication of that in decades. censored.el i do not want to be censored, but i definitely don't want the government getting into this censoring. i'm not sure if i answered the question. host: we will go to edward from new jersey, on the independent line. caller: thank you. i have an authorization -- observation. has there been any research as to how the brain reacts to the radio? it starts out light and jovial in the morning and then as it progresses through the day, it eecelerates into vil propaganda. i was wondering if there was any research into the psychological manipulation? guest: i don't know about research. when i was with air america i was working here in portland on a clear channel station, the progressive affiliate here. the guy who programmed it was just a genius. was, and id me believe him to be --this comports with all of my experience. he told me in the morning that is the most routine time of day for people. , and on not fully awake a morning program they want the same people at the same time, the same news. throughout the morning you can bigger issuesto and kind of start the day, and then in the afternoon people are looking for a closure, for conclusions, what happened during the day and what does it mean? so if you put those conversations on radio into that kind of frame and in the evening people are willing to speculate, aboutu find the programs ufos. it makes a certain amount of sense. it tracks human behavior and the rhythms of our lives. i don't see it as pernicious. the pernicious part would be whatever the contact is in those slots. host: who did you listen to on the radio when you were growing up? guest: kevin mccarthy, for years. host: this is ron from michigan. praised savage and he is banned in england because he portraysm, and that on his show especially when he likes to attack president obama. and you like to praise rush limbaugh. i remember when show where he said when clinton was the president, he said somebody should crash a plane into the white house. a few days later, that happened. he preaches hate and violence against left-wing people, and for you to praise him, i think you are doing a disservice. thatou also like to praise not shell with the flying saucers at night. limbaugh goesthat out with, he portrays it in the middle of the night. you're listening habits are kind of screwed up in my opinion. i went to vietnam to fight in the war and i'm still fighting that war, you understand? guest: i do. i don't broadly disagree with you and your analysis of my colleagues. my point was that what they are saying is good. my point was these guys have been able to catch an audience and hold it for decades because they understand the dynamic of talk radio. the reason why al franken otherled or some of the --you see this more on the left than the right. it is rare on the right that you listen to talk shows where they just sit and talk to guests for hours. if you --you can find that a lot on the left. it does not work. it does not work in radio. what i was pointing out was the , the talent in the context of the communications of these men. it israel. -- it is real. they are using that talent to spread hate and racism, and i call that out regularly. i think until lefties start looking at people like limbaugh cansavage and saying what we learn from how they are using this medium, and i'm not talking about how do we like to spread hate, that is part of their message, but it is a small part. the biggest part is we are a tribe. it is community. .hey are selling community progressive radio hosts or people who want to be progressive radio hosts need to figure that out. host: you wrote about this in youration last week, and piece was about talk radio, emigrants can't win if they do not play. what should they be doing? guest: i think democrats need to take this seriously. during the george w. bush administration, i believe it was every dear -- every year, he hosts frome talkshow all over the country to come to the white house and broadcast from the lawn or from inside the white house. he was frequently on these shows as was dick cheney, particularly when they were selling the war. they made use of the conservative infrastructure out there, and they continue to. that infrastructure, politics in the united states are typically decided around the margins. if you can swing the electric about three percent in one direction or another, you can win a lot of elections. talk radio has provided that edge for republicans for the better part of 20 years. on the democratic side what i was saying was big democratic spend a every two they billion dollars in ever four years spends 2 billion dollars and this year probably three on advertising. advertising is never as effective as listening to a voice that you know and trust. advertising all day a equals b, but as long as the people hearing those advertisements are also hearing lesh -- limbaugh, it will never be effective. start telling your donors who are coming up with this billion dollars every two years, for a few million they can radio stations. there's not one corner of america where you cannot get in your car and find a right wing hate radio. inflammatory here, but i think of it as right-wing hate radio. there is not a place in the country you cannot find that. and only 10% of the country can you find progressive talk radio. .ost: a few more calls this is from lakeland, florida, from that republican line. i got two questions, one is why do all of those other netflix --networks have all those lashing lights. you don't have that. why do those other networks put all of those flashing lights behind people? and the other thing, i have been diverted at times when i call in. is there somebody manipulating ?he callers calls orbody divert my do they manipulate people calling in? but the lights in the diverted calls, could you respond to that. host: we don't have flashing lights. we are just a pretty straightforward operation. thom hartman, do you want to address the diverted calls issue? the diverted calls, i am not sure what kino is talking about. her criteriaener, is are they abusive or drunk, otherwise they are not going on the air. if they are remotely on-topic, they will be on air. calls in every couple of weeks, and it is great to hear from a republican who wants to see this country in better shape. sometimes we disagree and sometimes we agree, but i have a lot of --respect for any republican who calls in. caller: i am a big fan of "washington journal." show on tv.eatest i love it. i had two questions i wanted to ask. station, i listen to you out of chicago. please keep it up. you,uestion i want to ask chicago,station out of they reported a couple of reddish economists did a study of trickle-down economics, and they concluded that it was a fraud, it only benefits the rich. guest: that was widely published. caller: i haven't seen it on network news or i have not heard anybody else talk about it. sayfor them to come out to that it only works for the rich. i am a littleng, pessimistic about what is going to happen in this country. years, we knowr exactly who donald trump is, and i feel he is a racist. compulsively. he cannot help it. he lacks empathy. and i think he is a russian agent. in spite of all of that 74 million people voted for him. i wonder if the division in this country is so great, it can never be healed. biden will calm down the rhetoric, but i do not know if we can stay as united states of america. host: thank you for your input. my biggest concern is the power of facebook frankly to influence the middle america average people who are just going on to check out what their family is up to. there is a lot of people who voted for donald trump, not because they are racist, but because they are catholics or evangelicals who are opposed to abortion, and people who are afraid democrats will take away their assault weapons. there's a lot of single issue voters in this country frankly. are -- white racism is a huge problem here. our country was founded on it and something we have to deal with. host: this is nancy from los angeles on the democrat line. caller: good morning. i listen to your show whenever i can and like the previous color i listen to stephanie miller every morning. why have people like michael bloomberg not bought radio stations? that is been a puzzle to me. do you know the answer? guest: that is why i wrote that may two that article weeks ago. not been on it is the radar. i think the prevailing notion among wealthy liberals is that america, so-- air end of experiment. two things happen, mitt romney's company had acquired clear channel and almost all of our stations were clear channel stations and they dropped us. and the total bankruptcy, the total debt air america had accumulated, brit hume tells the story about how rupert murdoch lost 100 mahon dollars a year for five years before he made a penny on fox news. if air america is guilty of anything, it was being undercapitalized. .hat is why i wrote that op-ed i think it is important that we communicate that message to progressive donors, even if if buy a local station in wichita, kansas, you can influence. from that is raj republican line. i guess i never heard of your show, but it looks interesting, so i will look you up. i guess you compare you talk about the radio show or the by the samebut media there is tv pretty much dominated by liberals. one of the earlier callers mentioned that rush limbaugh is spreading the hate, that goes both ways. i am sure you agree. guest: how many right-wing television networks are there? there is fox, on american news, newsmax, i can get those three on my tv here. what are the left-wing channels? , there is a republican host in the morning, and there midday, ande they've got one in the evening. i am not sure i would call that a progressive network. the one progressive network i note is free speech television and i am on it. it is not on a lot of cable systems. i think your analysis of the media is off. host: does the radio show run live on tv at the same time? like the is simulcast, one out of new york that started years ago. host: great to have you with this and hope you come back. thom hartman joining us this morning. thank you so much. that will do it for us on this sunday morning but we are back as always tomorrow morning. we start at seven :00 a.m. eastern and hope you will join us then. have a great sunday. [captioning performed by the national captioning institute, which is responsible for its caption content and accuracy. visit ncicap.org] [captions copyright national cable satellite corp. 2020] ♪ >> c-span was created by cable television companies in 1979. today we are brought to you by these television companies who provide c-span2 viewers as a public service. >> 60 one million americans have disabilities. the majority of those roles are pretrade by nondisabled actors. ultimately as someone with a disability, we went to see ourselves represented because not only are we not seeing that, it will help destigmatize disability and representation in general gets a society used to everybody and ultimately it makes the world a more inclusive place. >> this actor founded the easter seal disability challenge in response to seeing disabilities under representative on the camera. tonight he will talk about the entries and winning films at 8:00 p.m. eastern on c-span q&a. ♪ coming up on monday

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