The right on Crime Organization. From your perspective of all policing,s working in what do you want washington no as they Debate Police reform . What do you think should happen . Guest first and foremost, dont to one million on a fewficers based different incidents. I think that is what is happening recently. Especially with the floyd incident. Anger and what happened at the floyd incident has generated talk and rhetoric that i think is harmful to the country and to the police arena. What happened to mr. Floyd was a murder. It happened to happen, just so happened that the guy that murdered him was a cop. Anyone think i talked to i did not talk to one cop, one Police Officer, one investigator, no one thought there was anything ok about mr. Floyds murder. I think those cops, especially the one that is on top of him should go to prison for the rest of his life. I personally said that i believe personally that his murder was a firstdegree murder, that he should be charged at the highest level. Be heldr cops should accountable, too. They stood there like more ons. Said, that is not the same. You cannot compare mr. Floyd with mr. Brooks. Unfortunately, they happened back to back. Said, i think people have to realize that the men and women that go out every day and , they put their lives on the line for people they dont know. They dont care what color your skin is, what religion you are, where you came from. They put their lives on the line. Many of them lose those lives. Last year, we had 89 Police Officers killed in the line of duty. I think sometimes people forget that and forget that they are really good people for the most part. , yes, but atapples the end of the day, i think it is up to the administrators and Police Executives to find them and identify them. Them. Stratively deal with internal,omething policy, and if they are bad apples, lock them up. Thats what i think people should know. The Police Officers in minnesota, are they protected by qualified immunity, and should that be looked at in any policing reform . Guest i think it is an option. First of all, i dont know minneapolis or minnesota law. I dont know if they are or not. Overall as a general standard, that is something that should be looked at. That there are two issues that i hear a lot of talk about. I hear a lot of talk about unions, and i hear a lot of talk about qualified immunity. For me as an executive, if you andan aggressive manager, you are doing the job youre supposed to, neither one of those things make a difference to me because you are doing what is right. If you are going after the bad apples and getting rid of the ones that should not be there, so long as you are following due process, as long as you held a case against those officers, you can have the union screaming and yelling all they want. With some a problem officers. Island for six years before i ran the nypd. Somebody was telling me, one of my chiefs was saying the unions are not going to be happy. I had my chiefs of personnel sitting there. Said, go down and get a table of organization and bring it to my office. I put it up on the wall and said show me where the union is within that table of organization. They are not there. They do not work for me. They dont fall within the mayors chain of command. Im not worried about the means. If a manager is doing his job and doing it right, he can hold people accountable. He should hold people accountable. That is my own opinion. Crimewhat is the right on organization and what is its mission . Guest the right on Crime Organization is one of the best organizations out there right now when it comes to criminal Justice Reform, promoting criminal Justice Reform, getting legislation passed. That part of the committee went to the president and helped act the first that First Step Act passed. I had worked with the Obama Administration for close to three years trying to get this accomplished. It did not happen. When President Trump came in, i did not think it would happen. People told me it is never going to happen under President Trump. Through a lot of hard work by a lot of different people, right on crime was in the forefront, we got the legislation passed. I think there is more to do. Criminal Justice Reform is a complicated matter. You have people in this country that are hardcore conservatives. Believeans who everybody should go to prison, everybody should be imprisoned as long as you can keep them there, and that will rid us of crime. Im a republican. Im conservative when it comes to national security. Im conservative when it comes to economics. That everybody has to go to prison. I dont believe that everybody should go to prison. Place whereon is a bad people go that did bad ,hings, violent people go people that we are afraid of, that we are scared to death of. Those are the people that belong in prison. Firsttime nonviolent offenders, lowlevel drug offenders that we feel can be rehabilitated or put in a position where we can just about guarantee that there is not going to be recidivism, dont destroy their lives. Foron is a Training Ground criminality. That is what it is. You learn how to steal, cheat, lie, manipulate, gamble. You learn how to fight and survive. Is that what i want coming back into my community . Some young kid gets picked up on a firsttime nonviolent drug offense, and we destroy his life, we turn him into a convicted felon. We want to put him back in the community. If he does 18 months in prison, and i have seen this, where prison ongets sent to a nonviolent felony and then goes back home after 18 months. Really adamantly against things like that. That is why i joined the group i think we put too many people in prison. We have people going to prison forlife, double life nonviolent offenses. Something has to be thought about and looked at by congress and members of congress from a realistic point of view for the public to decide. My biggest problem with criminal Justice Reform in washington is the inability of congress did do their job. Officer,en a Police Police executive for my whole career. I was not too familiar with what went on in washington until i got involved in this. Done of things dont get because congress cannot get out of their own way. Political partisanship and deadly inon, it is certain arenas. On the criminal justice side, i think they could do more, should do more and hopefully will focus on this in the future. Host lets get to calls. Craig in indianapolis, democratic caller. Caller if im not mistaken, Bernard Kerry was put in jail himself because of his crookedness. He is a crony of donald trump. And Rudy Giuliani. Atlanta, the guy in atlanta, it is like chris cuomo said last night, he was embarrassed. If you shot somebody in the back, you a coward. Host ok. Kirk. D i went to prison for eight felony counts that i pled guilty to. Ethical and civil issues that should have been handled that way. When you put people in prison, i will not get into that. We would be here for three hours. And the that experience president s pardon of you shared your view on criminal Justice Reform . Guest no. I will tell you that my view on acton and the first step and criminal Justice Reform in general, my view came out of that time of being targeted by the u. S. Government and being when yourison because work in the capacity of a Police Officer, your whole function is to enforce the law. I remember in 2003, justice kennedy, he was giving a speech to the american bar association. He said once those prison doors close, nobody cares what goes on. From my perspective, that is true. Nobody sees, nobody cares. Timee end of the day, my was extremely important when it comes to my ability to understand the system better because i got to see it from both sides, how destructive prison is to families, especially young kids. My own kids went through it when i was sent to prison. Think firsthand, and i that was the benefit in pushing the president to sign the first that act. Withr my opinion is regarding this movement to defund, demoralize, disarmed the police, while the police are a target, they are not the target. The target is lawabiding men and women, the woman that does not want to get raped, the man that does not want to get mugg ed. To have the whole country look like is the goal to have the whole country look like baltimore after the freddie gray riots . Record numbers of murders. Is the endgame of defund the ,olice actually to expand crime expand violence, to have mayhem on the streets . Guest i think you have two issues. They are separate from each other. The first issue is that there are cities in this country. When you think of the political rhetoric or whatever you want to aboutt, the rhetoric police, there is systemic racism and police brutality, and cops are killing black men in record numbers. When you think of that rhetoric and look at it, you look at it statistically, it is not true. Is something systemic and our country today. For whatever reason, nobody wants to focus on it. That is the systemic slaughter of black men and women in communities around this country like baltimore, like chicago, like st. Louis, milwaukee, and others. I think it is tragic. Is mindboggling to me that in this day and age, 30 years after Rudy Giuliani came to new york city and changed new how city and taught america to reduce Violent Crime and murder, 30 years after that, we still have these issues. I think new york city can be a lesson for a lot of these communities. It has been. There have been major cities throughout the United States that have been able to turn around their Violent Crime and murder. When Rudy Giuliani came into office in 1994, we were the murder capital of the year. Murders in 1993. Between 1994 and 2002, he reduced overall Violent Crime by 63 . He reduced murder by 70 . In the black communities, minority communities, the murder rate dropped close to 80 . Achievednever been prior or since in any city. Lives weref black saved as a result of what went on in new york city. Those are the things people should be looking at now. How did it happen, why did it happen, what can we do . How can chicago have 175 shootings in a month and 23 murders in 24 hours. Numbers that comes out of a war zone in iraq. That is a problem. The defund the police movement, i dont care what community you go to, the Real Community leaders in a community that wants to live in safety and security, they are not calling to defund the police. Im not talking about the outside instigators. The Real Community leaders, they are not calling for it. For are not calling defunding the police, for diminishing the police or diminishing the Law Enforcement arena in their areas. There is a movement in this by radical leftist marxists that are pushing this agenda. This comes right out of the antifa handbook. This is a lot of what we saw and in the 1960s, 1970s, 1980s with the weather underground, black panther party, same rhetoric. Now the methods have changed. They have funding mechanisms and communication and the ability to create a National Riot in 42 different states within a matter of hours. People, what do you feel the greatest threat is against this country as a Law Enforcement officer . Now isest fear right global terrorism. That is what i used to say. I believed that. As somebody that oversaw the aftermath of the attack on new york city on 9 11, what we have gone through since, i strongly believe that. Today, that is not my biggest fear for this country. My biggest fear is this socialist communist movement. Socialism that they are trying to push into this country to diminish the constitution and diminish peoples rights and take over towns like what is happening in seattle. It is frightening because the they areat lose calling for the diminishment or defunding of police. Orn you think of chicago baltimore, st. Louis, where they rate ofng murder at the a war zone, do you really want to eliminate the police in those towns . I think people have to stand up and change their Political Leadership if they have to and yell out, go public, do whatever you have to do. That kind of stuff has to stop. Jan is calling from new jersey. Thank you for waiting. Caller [inaudible] fullsides are seriously a at fault. Never resist arrest in a violent manner. What outcome do you expect to get out of that . Regarding the Police Officer, you dont shoot somebody in the back that is running away. Fact that he shot a taser at him from behind, he would not have done that if he was not being chased. There were other options. Host can we get your take on what happened . Guest i can give you my take based on the videos i have seen id reports i have heard, but have said this from the beginning, a lot of times, we should not speculate until the investigation is concluded. In this case, the investigation has not been concluded. Without arged them grand jury investigation or the Georgia Bureau of investigation getting involved. Atlantic, this is the amazing part. How when you look at this from an outside perspective, you realize that there was a rush to judgment. Atlanta requested the Georgia Bureau of investigation to investigate, but the da came in and charged them before the investigation was concluded. Based on what i have seen, the mr. Brooks would be alive today if he did not resist arrest. During the course of what i saw, i saw two Police Officers that were extremely professional and courteous. Nice in their conversation with him. Scene,re called to the had him pull over his car, spoke to him. This went on for several minutes. At some point in time, after the sobriety test, as soon as they went to arrest him, he resisted. In resisting, he attacked them, assaulted them, overpowered both of them, disarmed them of a things i there are two would remind people. Taser, i have been tased more times than i can count. It is a destabilizing weapon. It is a weapon that will incapacitate you for anywhere from six to 12 seconds. They disarmed him of a taser. He disarmed them of the taser. At that point, it changed the whole circumstance of that interaction. In theice officers chase, he turned to fire the taser at the officer. The officer returned fire with his handgun. In my opinion based on what i have seen, based on what i know with regard to training, had he hit that officer with the taser, he would have destabilized him and had the possibility of getting his handgun. Im sure that is with the officer was thinking when he fired. A lot of people have said to me, i have heard this talked about in the news, why didnt they just let him go . Why didnt they take his keys and sent him on his way . Call an uber. They had a bodycam on. For years, we have mandated the police in many jurisdictions to wear body cams. Both of those cops had body cams on. They were both working. When they stopped him and did the sobriety test, a determined he had too much to they determined he had too much to drink. A lot of people want to know what that did not happen. It did not happen because there is a policy in atlanta, and i think it is the law, you cannot and letebody for dwi them go. Somebody should look into that, especially the pundits. They should have just let him go. They should let him walk it off. Normally, you dont arrest resist, and you let them walk off. That does not happen. Once the Police Officer tells you that you are under arrest, you cannot resist, you cannot attack them, you cannot assault them, you cannot disarm them. We have lost sight that there is supposed to be law and order. If that guy was compliant, he would be alive today. As far as shooting him in the back, all i can tell you is there have been countless men and women shot in the back during armed confrontations with police, and until you are in one of those circumstances, and i have been in run and gun battles, chasing someone that is shooting at me. The one i remember specifically, my partner got shot. My partner was shot through a car windshield, and the guy that a complex,n through and we were in a run and gun battle. He shot 19 rounds at us. He got shot in the back while he was shooting 19 rounds at us. In this case it was a taser. At the end of the day, that officer felt his life was in danger, and that is why he fired. Host jeffrey, you are next. Caller thank you. It is amazing. Everyone knows what the real problem is. It is cheaper to put a policeman there than to try to build new schools. It is cheaper to put police there than to give these people a shot at life, a decent job. You throw up all these false signals. We had outside agitators that you dontelected, but say anything. My point is we know we dont need more police. We need these kids to have a chance at life. The kid in georgia, he was on parole. Thats why he ran. What was he on parole for . Some minor thing. You can drive down the street to get pulled over. Your light is out, so pulled him over. Let me see your drivers license and insurance. Where have you been . Where are you going . Then you are in the system. Then you get locked up for child support. You are really in the system. It goes on and on. It is finance. Give these kids a shot at life. Give these kids a job. You dont have police in rich neighborhoods. You dont need them. Host i am going to leave it there so we have time for mr. Kerik to respond. Guest let me talk about a few things. He was on parole. He was not on parole for some miniscule thing. He was on parole for Armed Robbery. He had been charged prior for Armed Robbery and battery of his kids, false imprisonment. He was a violent felon. That is reality. That is number one. Now i forgot. Host his point about not having more cops and giving communities go ahead. Guest here is what i would like you to think about. I completely agree people need schools, 100 d with you. Here is where people lose sight of reality. Nobody wants to go to work, init, go to school, or live a place that is like a war zone. I know this from firsthand experience in new york city. Cop in midtowna manhattan in times square. Plainclothes unit, shootings on a daily basis. Had more murders than anybody in the country. Nobody wanted to live in new york city. If you think back to those times, nobody wanted to go to school here. They were scared to death. Agree, kids need better schools. But given this day and age, after we have seen downeds of thugs burning and destroying businesses, and where are they doing it, they are doing it in the black community. 10 to 30ple worked for years building a business, and we have maniacs coming in burning them down. Until you have law and order, until you have an environment where people can build a business, where they can put a business, you are not going to have jobs. You are not good to have schools. That is reality. From new york city and other cities around the country. As long as you have violence and crime and murder, you are going to have poverty. The violence,n up the crime, the murder, it is not going to happen. Host we have about 10 minutes left with bernard kerik. We will go to terry, republican. Caller i was going to ask you about the guy that got shot in the back about jumping the rule of law and charging them before the investigation. You talked about that already. The same guy that jumped the rule of law, when he was angry at officers, they used a stun gun at these people. He called it a dangerous weapon. Gun isis saying a stun not a dangerous weapon. If anybody thinks the democrats are going to get with the republicans and make good legislation about changing the policies because that would eliminate one of their tools every time they are campaigning. They like to keep the blacks. Ight there, vote for me then they do not think, just like they do on immigration. Thank you. I will touch on the prosecutor for just a second. The prosecutor in this case made not athat the taser was Deadly Weapon. Somebody that was on the taser, it has used a can tell you that a taser in the hands of the wrong person can be considered a Deadly Weapon when it is being used against someone that has a Deadly Weapon on them. The caller is right, two weeks prior to this event, that prosecutor stood up at a press severalce and charged atlanta Police Officers with aggravated assault with a Deadly Weapon, and the Deadly Weapon was a taser. I dont know if he was lying the first time or the second time, but this is a prosecutor that himself is under investigation for sexual harassment. Fors under investigation corruption within the government. I dont know anything about it other than the reports. It was either a Deadly Weapon the first time or the second time, but his statements conflict. I think that has a lot to say about rushing to judgment. I think the georgia. All of investigation and Attorney Generals Office will have to sort that out and figure out what is going on. Matt is in nebraska, independent. Caller good morning. Commissioner, i read your book. The government did a total number on you, and it was totally wrong. Im sorry for that. I enjoyed your book. You were talking about being tased before. When i was in another city, i was part of a commission, and we went through taser inc. If the taser is in the wrong ands, they can give someone heart attack or kill them. You are right about that. Cop. Other is a i worry about him every day. Im going to find out more about your organization. When are these riots going to stop . What do we do to get people to sit down and just talk to each other . Host i will leave it there. Bernard kerik. With regard to the taser, i have been tased. I can tell you, every Police Officer, every single one, if you have a taser on your belt, on you, and you have the authority to use it, you have been tased. Policy byndatory police departments. It is a mandatory policy through taser. Any officer has to be hit himself. They know the impact. They know what it does, how it works, and how destabilizing it can be. What are the riots going to stop . When the mayors and governors stand up and enforce the law. Things over the last two or three weeks that i am stunned were allowed to happen. Nobody has more demonstrations the new york city. We have thousands of these each year. We have a complete unit that deals with protests and demonstrations, a lyrical and otherwise. We do it all the time. Stunned at the departments, at the mayors, at the governors that lets a lot of this stuff happen. Until they stand up and call it what it is, these are not protests. This is lawlessness, looting, that isomplete mayhem allowed to be perpetrated by a bunch of thugs. The mayors and governors allow it. Why . I dont know. I think people think about this a lot, is there a political implication . Are they doing this intentionally . Positive they could have been handled differently, and the violence would not have happened the way it did. Why didnt they . I dont know. I cannot answer for them. That did jurisdictions let it happen and jurisdictions that did not. It is up to the voters to vote these people in office, you have to figure it out. You mentioned the first act at the beginning of our conversation. What happens next . \ what is the status on more criminal Justice Reform . Mandate fromas a the president from the time he came in office. President trump said he wanted to focus on criminal Justice Reform. Out to bring everybody into the white house to look at this stuff. They have done a tremendous job already. I think there is more that can happen and will happen. Time will tell. My biggest fear is not the president wanting to get it done. It is congress doing their job and getting something put on his desk for him to sign. That is my concern. Host bernard fans washington journal read every day we are taking your calls live on the air in news of the day and discussing policy issues that impact you. Coming up saturday morning, dr. Michael lewis on the spread of the coronavirus and how it compares to previous outbreaks like sars. Then a discussion about the june 1921 tulsa, oklahoma, riots that led to the killing of hundreds of africanamericans with a professor of african and africanamerican studies at the university of oklahoma. Watch cspans washington journal live at 7 00 eastern saturday morning and be sure to join the discussion with your phone calls, facebook comments, text messages, and tweets. New York Governor Andrew Cuomo gave his final daily update on the states response to the coronavirus as new york continues reopening in phases. He says he hopes future updates will not be needed. He appeared alone and told viewers he gave his staff their first day off in 111 days. Gov. Cuomo good morning. Today is friday, juneteenth. New york is declaring it a holiday in recognition of the ending of slavery. So i gave everyone today off and i can handle this last daily covid briefing alo