cub÷ qinutes, instead of the previous average, which was 60 minutes. Violent crime has dropped 42 in just seven years. All of this was done without a union. All this was done by freeing the department from a collectivebargaining agreement that had previously city and the City Police Department into an unholy alliance with officers who had violent and lawless tendencies. This brought a by what all observable metrics seem to circumstances, so mr. Logan, for your healing words. I appreciate your account of the progress made in camden. You mentioned the difficult balance that has to be struck in order to empower po do the difficult work and hold accountable those who disregard the justice they are entrusted to uphold. Did this restructuring that ha camden, tell me how it helps to recalibrate ter and authority you mentioned. Thank you, senator. I would say that they listen to the people, from town Hall Meetings to conversationsthey begin to hear from regular residents. I remember governor cme to all near my house several speak to the struggles, challenges, fears and issues of camden in its broken state. The mayor did a great job of ing and restating to make sure we were heard. As the new officers walked the streets, as a preacher im good for a block party in an impromptu cookout. I was cooking on the corner and the officer said im going to go get more hotdogs bthis ooes and gets hotdogs and comes back, and he is electric sliding. That would never have happened in camden. That relationship now if that officer was to pull over somebodyhangesstory, and so that accountability, the relationship created accountability that was put in place because now a big thing that happened in camden is we didnt their facese in conversations were constantly happening. We had the baseball cards with Police Officers. All those things were builtnto our connection, a relationship, which allow for a level of trust. In 10 seconds, i got pulled inront of my house, had cookout, coming back with food, and one of the officers was rough, and i was at my house. The officer said something to the effect of, you are the pastor like, calm down. It was that simple. I dont know if that story would have been the same in 2006 2007 , that murder was in front of my Church Building on saturday night, and they still had the tapemorning, and are come to creation our congregation cried. We prayed that things would changemayor who came to my church and visited a couple of times. I have family that lives there now andtment. Senator, if you dont mind me adding briefly . I taught morehouse one thing to the point is they made a particula effort to recruit from camden, so one of students is a Police Officer in camden. When he goes into the rougher neighborhoods, they know jimmy that does make a difference, to your point. Yes, this committee is an interesting experience. Learned a lot. What percentage of the police forc minority before . I dont have the numbers before. Was 50 . The concern was most pcame from neighboring communities. That is as important as the racial makeup of force. Studies about diversity and Law Enforcement, it matters deeply for trust, but studies show that diversity does not impact use of force rates and misconduct in the way one would anticipate. That is what i am learning from this hearing. Senator whitehouse . I want to take a moment on one section, the primary vehicle for assessing liability for Police Misconduct. As you also know, the primary liability the defense of qualified immunitythat the bookerharris legislation. It limits liability, narrows the window of conduct for which an officer can be held liable, and its original purpose was to protect the individual officer. At the same time it does that it deprives the injured or wronged person, and also it puts the signal back into the agency that something is wrong because they got away with it, because of qualified immunity. So we have heard today Police Officers are almost always by their departments. It is inter it, because the only way you get qualified immunity is ia reasonable person would have it was unconstitutional people who reasonably should have known what they did was unconstitutional, they are ge zing indemnified. Its not like where you have bad cases in good cases. Indemnification is the constant here. There is another report that descbe it as occurring virtually alwso one wonders why the department should be obliged to pay, and it seems there are a lot of obvious reasons. One, they set the policy that officers follow three, they established the training, they dominate the culture that the officers follow, and finally, they provide the discipline that the officers must adhere to. They are the employers in a nutshell so the police cases to regular Employer Liability and there we find a ancient doctrine, vicarious liability, in which acting within the scope of your employment, your employer owns it, and ups drivers drive really safy because ups knows they own those accidents. They will lean towards people who are bonded because they know if they mess up, the company will own it. The incentives are in the right place. Here is my worry and what i would like you to think about. We have a couple of choices p could leave qualified immunity alone. Ip think that would be a terrible mistake. So that means we should strip out qualified immunity, then wecan do just that and hope that indemnity survives, but as you said, there could be a flood of cases that qualified indemnity has kept out of the courtroom. And right now indemnification of rly rickety structure of policy practice, municipal ordinance law, do you agree with that . So far, yes. You know this. There is a surge in cases it seems to me we need to lock down where everyone is right now which is indemnification. Officers should stay indemnified. One of established doctrines in the law would provide that, and that would be a sensible backstop make sure if an officer does something wrong, he doesnt lose his house, and meet all of our concern that the department gets behind the policy, procedure training, culture, and discipline that will prevent these things from happening in the first place. So given those three choices leave qualified immunity alone. Strip out qualified immunit but dont touch indemnification or strip out qualified immunity and protect indemnification and make sure officers are indemnified. Which would you recommend . Moving option, that ensures the e employees. Nothing new under the law . It has been around forever and is the status quote, is it not . Thats correct. Anything to add . I agree. I will yield back the time i have gone over. You can tell five minutes is subjective here. Thank you. Thank you for being here today. Professor logan, if i could come back to you. I am a little familiar, probably not as i should be, but camden. I had the privilege hearing you preach and thank you for your continuing ministry. Can i ask you to come back to your experience in camden. I read your testimony. At the risk of having you repeat yourself, but i dont think it will do anym, if you talk about the restructuring that you helped to participate in, Police Coming to your block in groups of two or three. U said our problems willbe solved overnight. Im wondering if you could elaborate on that. Could you just pick that back up and talk to us about what that looked like in camden and what you saw be successful there and how building those relationships and what that and . That meant . , always talk about crockpot ministry. It takes time. I always talk about crockpot ministry. It takes time, especially when we are changing culture. An officer was with 17 strikes was training, the officer who killed george floyd, we were Training Officers with a bad culture blending into the culture, added to the sysmic issues already andange something, we have to change culture so the crockpot reality was list the crockpot reality, the slow cooker, taking our time was not just going to be through money added, grabbing africanamericans in the tino and calling that diversity and latinrsity. It was gonna take a long overhaul in a long bui out. I applaud the government workers in camden who took their time and work it through, a comprehensive and collective overhaul, because they called and people from all overty to participat that, and that took time. Ca murders. I did multiple funerals of kids under 15, and on the other hand it felt very, very unsafe. All of us wanted to but it was a crockpot repair. As you look back, what are the pieces that stick out to you being the most significant, that really move the ball forward the most . I think it was the Community Policing, where those relationships were developed where they wereactive. That Community Policing was a big deal. And second, hearing from the residents in multiple groups, particularly the pastors, and the mayor did good to pull in as many as she could, so thatrelational Community Aspect was really a beautiful element that helped greatly. Very good. Any written testimony, you talk in her written testimony, you talk about the flaws asking police to fix upstream problems. Can you talk to us about whall us more what you mean about that . That seems like a significant point you are making there. It has been said here on this committee that a pworker the second difficult, he is dealing, trying to administer mercy, trying much, and i want to give credit to those officers who navigate that, but my colleague told us that we failed miserably and we kill a lot of people in america through police, and other countries havent, so when we put if my will not call an electrician, because he will probably mess up my plumbing, so when we put plumbing problems on electricians, they mess uyour plumbing, so when we put so ch on police and that is why the system is messed up, because they shouldnt have to do that, so that upstream problem, it thats why we talk about the broken nature of the system. Can you just give us an example you think of as an just to help us get our hands around it . I will use a negative. Mr. Brooks in atlanta, the officer showed up to ask him, to talk with him. I felt they were applying justice, but mercy. He was sayinso now they are navigating a few areas. Ar they supposed to do justice, mercy and honor . And so in light of that, that is so much to juggle and yeah im a little emotional. I saw that videog with my head a little bit even as we sit here. We give too much to do to officers and we dont train them properlyi think we need to parse this out and restructure completely because we need structural change. [indiscernible] you bet. Absolutely. I think we are finding out no amount of Law Enforcement, no amou force can secure destiny we cant be the social workers. We cant and [indiscernible] we can never resources [indiscernible] that supply we are workers [indiscernible] thank you, mayor. Thank you, mr. Chairman. Senator klobuchar. And emotion. I think we are all feeling that. Mayor carter, it is hard to hear parts of your story, but just so my colleagues can hear it, you were talking about how your grandpa worked at that railroad in minnesota and how he was called george. In fact, all the porters were caed george so the white passengers only had to hear one name, and out of that, and learn what, your dad becomes one of the first africanamerican Police Officers in the city of st. Paul, and you talked about how you thought about your dad and i know you still do, and the people around him, the officer sees ers he k talk about why it is so important to have this systemic change with policing from your personal experience. Senator, thank you for the question. It is important. Our officerst as disgusted by the video. [indiscernible] and so we are connected with on our officers [indiscernible] that is one of the reasons why it is so important to constantly integrate officers into our community. [indiscernible] t. It is part of our training, our mission. [indiscernible] ok. Thank you. Im going to ask a question, but i will have you follow up on the record. I know senatorham was asking you about other Police Departments, and i think you were trying to make the point this is happening all over the country, not just in one department, so i want to give you a chance on the record later to answer that, but i will turn my remaining time to miss cuba googleupta. Do you think that such a pattern and practice investigation is needed . Yes, i do. Right before the hearing started, we have done two now, i got a response from mr. Boyd, the assistant attorney general. And ey did not commit to doing this investigation. They said the section may initiate a civil action in the name of the United States for appropriate injunctive relief. We will consider the evidence in this case as well as any additional evidence that comes to our attention. Do you think there is enou evidence out there to embark on this investigation . The years of systemic problems in the minneapolis Police Department, coupled with the killing of mr. Floyd and other Police Misconduct in minneapolis would merit a pattern of practice investigation. Ou lead the Civil Rights Division of the Justice Department, banning of the use of chokehold scum is that right . Thats right. Thats one example of something that can come out of the Consent Decree . Yes. Because we have not had that Justice Department pattern of practice investigation, in addition to the attorney the case in his prosecution of the case, we now have our Minnesota Department of human rights stepping in to look at the department. Senator harri talking about the importance of having outside investigations, which i strongly supported when i was a prosecutor. We had some issues with the Minneapolis Police trying to take those investigations inhou, but in addition to that states, especially now they could step in to oversee these investigations, as well as oversee a similar version of pattern of practice. Can you address that . Consent decrees are not a substitute for National Legislation on this issue because otherwise it is jurisdiction to jurisdiction, even according to the mandate. On this other point other independent offices doing these investigations so while i want the Civil Rights Division to be given the authority it needs to have, it is also important to reques it from others as well. Thank you. Thank you for convening hearing, thank you to each of is a time when our country is torn apart, is filled with anger, rage, division. It is my hope that through this weekend find ways to come together on shared principles. Here is one proposition i believe everyone in this hearing room agrees with. What happened to george floyd was horrific. It was unconscionable. It was clearly a grotesque abuse of police power, and the officers that carried out are rightly being prosecuted. To the best of my knowledge here today agrees with those statements. And every senator on this committee agrees with those statements. I think all of us regardless of party, should demand justice and should demand that the law be applied fairly regardless of race. That is a promise our country was found aspiring to, and a country with a deeply troubled history working to achieve. I also thinkment power that there is a risk of abuse and we have a responsibility to protect individual against the abuse of governmental authority. At the same time, some of the rhetoric that has been used in the wake of mr. Floyds has been inaccurate anda great many of our colleagues use the phrase systemic racism to suggest the entire criminal Justice System is imbued with racism. I dont believe that is accurate. Some of our colleagues have said, and this is a quote from hearing, nothing has changed. From the days dr. King stood on the steps of the lincoln memorial. I think that is demonstrably false. A great deal has changed since then. Our country has made a journey. Senator booker said dr. King pointed to the arc of history bending towards justice. We have traveled along that arc. We no longer have jim crow laws, segregated schools. We no longer have open bigotry that was so pervasive just a generation ago when our country. And i think for young people to say nothing has c gives them a false and inaccurate piwhen you point to systemic racism, something our democratic colleagues often point to as the cause of this, it is worth noting that in minneapolis, the police chief is a democrat, the mayor is an elected democrat, every member of the cityil is an elected democrat, the attorney general is an elected democrat, both senators are elected democrats. Now, dont for a moment to leave that every one of those elected officials is part of systemic racism and oppression, and to tell the american citizens that is what is going on is misleading them and it is harmful. Are there bigots . Yes. Are there people o violate the law . And they should be prosecuted, just like the offiho killed mr. Floyd but to impugn the integrity of everyone working in Law Enforcement is a disservice to this nation. There has been a lot of discussion there has been a lot of discussion of abolishing police has become a new political cause celebre. I want to point is committed to an article entitled policing the police. The impact of pattern or practice investigations on crime. And with the chairmans permission i would like to enter in this article into the record. It is by two economist at harvard university. A word of caution. Because there is a lot of discussion from our democratic friends thing we need more department of justice pattern of practiced investigations into Police Departments. That has become one of the frequent refrains. Let me read from this study because if we care about saving peoples lives , conclusions of thisre is what the study concluded. They examined all of the Police Departments in which pattern of practice investigations had been launched, an they found a real difference for those there was not what they called a viral incident. Violence they f