You asn 2020 brought to a Public Service by your television provider. Joining us on newsmakers is tim chapman, the executive director of the Heritage Action for america and joining us with the questioning is kate ackley who covers congress for roll call and gabby orr of politico. Thank you, tim, for joining us. A bit of news on this thursday, roger stone, former trump associate was sentenced earlier today to three years in prison for lying to federal prosecutors as part of the russia probe. I wanted to get your take on whether or not that is a fair sentence and whether you agree with some of the statements President Trump has made . Tim i know the president had some issues with it. Obviously, infractions were made, it was a felony. I think it is a problem and i think the sentence makes sense, but i will leave it up to the people in the Legal Community to figure that out. Do you think he received a fair trial . Tim from my vantage point, yeah. But hes the latest in a series of Trump Campaign officials now facing prison time or in prison. Is this a problem for the president in this Election Year . Tim of course, any perception of people like that around you is a major problem. What we have counseled the white house to do, you are seeing some of this, focus on the policy. Focus on what is going on in the economy, try to stick to one particular story about results. To the extent they do that, this wont be as big a problem, but if you are spending a lot of time talking about this more instead of your actual record, it is a political drag. Let me turn to kate. Kate how would a pardon play into that . If he received a pardon, with that put things to rest or bubble it up even more . What would your advice be to the white house . Tim a pardon would be on the front page of every newspaper and every media outlet would run it for a while. Ultimately how it would play long term politically, like everything in the news cycle right now, it would probably be a 24, 48 hour news story and a talking point in the campaign. Im not sure exactly how that would end in terms of where people go and vote. Gabby. Gabby you just said earlier that Heritage Action is advising the president of focus on policy, talk about the economy. One of the phrases we have heard out of the Trump Campaign this election cycle is socialism takes, and capitalism creates. They think that that is a winning message in 2020. I just wanted to ask you if you truly think that is something that animates voters outside the conservative base and is able to shore up support with suburban communities and demographics that are trending away from the Republican Party at the moment . Tim absolutely, weve done a lot of work in terms of polling in key swing states and key battleground districts. The socialism issue is a major drag for democrats, especially if you look at the big issue right now, and the big issue is where our republican where are republican suburban voters going to end up going . Will they stick with the president or will we have a similar situation to 2018 where we sagged a little with those voters . The one thing that absolutely map isem back on the nominating a socialist in the Democratic Party. There is just too much at stake, and when you look at the numbers they were asking people what the characteristics they most disliked about the candidates or were. The top one was socialism at 65 . I think the democrats are really playing with fire here because they would be smarter as a party to try to do it we are suggesting, as well, to just talk about issues. When you talk about issues, people are more interested in having that conversation and have a better chance, but if you are putting a democrat socialist at the top of the ticket, you put all of the suburbs, whether they are the philadelphia suburbs or whether it is des moines or whatever, they are back on the map. I think that is a Good Development for the president s chances. Michael bloomberg is not the nominee, but if he were, his Campaign Said he would spend 4 billion in a general election. Does that worry you . Tim of course it is not insignificant, but it is very interesting. I dont think money plays a role in politics it used to play. I think increasingly people are skeptical of bigmoney campaigns. I think the era of carpet bombing a state or district with dont make that the final difference in elections, i think that era is over. What matters most in american Politics Today is authenticity, and i think part of bloombergs problem will be that the money might actually work against him in that respect, because it wont feel authentic. Does he have a real Grassroots Movement behind him or is he buying his way toward election . It is not insignificant, but i it up ask chalk much as some others would. Kate does his entry into the race undermine democrats message about wanting to be the party of political reform, wanting to do hr1, which was the first premier piece of legislation that House Democrats featured, which Campaign Finance which would do Campaign Finance reform and a host of other measures, does having this billionaire come in and get himself on the debate stage and enter the race like that, does that undermine the rationale for campaignfinance overhauls and things like that . Tim absolutely. I think it undermines this goes back to authenticity. I said earlier that nominating a socialist is bad for the party. I still believe that, but at least with sanders, there is a level of authenticity and real Grassroots Movement. He is a true believer in what the most progressive base of the party believes in, so there is a so he is a champion for them. There is a real relationship there. It goes both ways. What you have seen them do under pelosi in the house is try to legislate those values. So, at least in that way, that is authenticity. Bloomberg does not have that. And i think it is a real problem for the party. The other thing i would say about bloomberg is, i think what you are seeing is, his assumption is there is this Critical Mass of moderates in the democratic primaries that are ready to go and elect a moderate democrat, and i dont think that is there. Yes, some of them are being shared by klobuchar and biden to a certain extent, but there is no energy there. The other thing i think we are learning from bloomberg, which will probably be a fizzling out in the next few months, what we are learning is the real energy in the party is with the progressive hardcore base. Steve who do you think the nominee will be . Tim at some point, we have to believe the polls, right . At some point, you have to look at what happened with donald trump. No one believes the polls with trump. Republicans were telling themselves over and over again that a certain senator would ascend or for some reason trump would stumble, and then ultimately the energy was there and that was the same dynamic i am talking about. There was authenticity there. People looked at trump and thought, this is a guy it who is not a traditional politician, and he is definitely rough around the edges and he says stuff we dont totally agree with and is an imperfect vessel, but at least we think he is authentic in his desire to be someone who shakes up the status quo in washington, so i see the same dynamic playing out in the Democratic Party. I will not be surprised at all if Bernie Sanders is the nominee or they decide to tamp it down a little bit, they go with an Elizabeth Warren. There are scenarios where you have a convention where there is brokering going on, but if you just sit back and look at the statistics and look at the polls and look at the energy and look at the rallies, it is going to be one of those two. Gabby youve been involved with gop politics for several years of heritagethe helm action, which has been on the forefront of the cultural wars in this country. Based on some of the rhetoric we have seen from the democratic primary debates and particularly senator klobuchars claim there should be a litmus test for future democratic president s to impose on Supreme Court nominees over abortion. Is that something you think republican candidates moving forward also need to adopt . There should be a litmus test to determine whether Supreme Court nominees would commit to overturning roe v. Wade . Tim republicans have always issued a litmus test. Sometimes to this advantage of constitutional conservatives, who have seen some of our nominees go to the court and vote in ways we are not comfortable with. But i think that is the right way to be. I dont think you want to impose litmus tests on judges. Ultimately, what you want to do is do your best vetting possible, look at their legal arguments, and make your best judgment possible. I dont think republicans are going to move toward a litmus test. What you see with the Republican Party it is a prolife party, no doubt about it, and im a proud prolifer, but you see a party that is big enough to allow other competing thoughts into the tent. So, we have a lot of that going on in the Republican Party and that is a strength of the party and when you juxtapose that with what you have on the left, which is absolutely litmus test, and let missed tests, and absolutely, especially in terms of political candidates, is there room for prolife political candidates in the Democratic Party . I think the answer is no. Kate we actually had a story on that today, that remaining antiabortion democrats in the house are having hard time finding allies among various groups. I just wanted to step back a little bit. You were writing in 2010, 2011 about the rise of populism, and weve really seen that play out. You have seen it in the Trump Administration when it comes to trade policy and other matters like that. You see it in the rise of Bernie Sanders on the campaign trail. What is going to happen next . Is this populism going to continue and how would that play out in policy issues, or is this reaching its end point . Tim i think the populism will continue, but i think it is going to begin to mature in a sense and i think the populism on both sides is going to begin to coalesce around ideas. As you mentioned, we have been involved in that populist movement for a long time when long time. When restarted started Heritage Action in 2010 we were very antiestablishment and had a lot of fights with our own leadership in the Republican Party, and they were over these populist issues, and that was the precursor to trump in many ways. That. From 2010 to 2016. That period from 2010 to then 2016. Trump comes along and is an agent of change with, whatever you think of him, he is not establishment. He is here to shake things up. What is going to be really interesting is on the right hand right and on the left, where do people in the future you see on the right some thinking on different policy ideas. I used trade as an example, and you are not seeing conservatives run away from the idea of free trade. People still understand the value of free trade, but you are seeing a more sophisticated thought process about it where you are really weighing all of the factors that occur in some of these trade deals and thinking of other ways to make sure that people in this country get to take advantage of all that we have to offer. I think it should be a really interesting next decade is the next decade you will see on the left and right, people coalesce around policy agendas that might look a little different than they have in the past. You say coalesce, do you mean bipartisanship . Tim no, there have been pivotal moments in republican politics, the most recent was the reagan of the 1980s. In the reagan era the right did something that was really smart, which was think about all of the ideas that we have had and how they apply to the politics of the 80s and fuse a Movement Together around that. You had conservatives, social conservatives, and you had business conservatives coming together around an idea. That is the kind of stuff i am talking about, on the right and left trying to figure out the coalitions of the future. President trump gave a little s little snippet in 2016 of what that might look like in bringing a new cohort of voters. When he won wisconsin and pennsylvania and michigan, he won those states by bringing in workingclass voters, who had voted for democrats in previous the previous election. By the way, 10 of Bernie Sanders voters in 2016 voted across the aisle for President Trump. I think that is what is interesting, how republicans are thinking of keeping that coalition together of being creative while sticking to your principles and not backing down. Steve lets turn to some news you are leaving Heritage Action about you. This spring to work with nikki haley, former u. S. Ambassador, stanford america, why the move . Tim it is a fantastic opportunity. Ive been with Heritage Action for a decade now. This organization is built for speed and they are going to do great. Nikki haley is someone i have admired for a long time. Andink she has grit, toughness, is principled and getting the opportunity to work for her is something im pretty excited about. It was something i could not say no to. Steve is she going to run for president in 2024 . Tim you will have to ask her. Steve what do you think . Tim i dont know. I know she is going to be a figure for years. Is there a figure in the gop you see as a natural successor to donald trump . Tim i dont think so. I think that is being settled right now. Those of the conversations that are occurring. In truth, the gop right now is not talking about a successor to trump. People are focusing on getting trump reelected. I am sure that if he is reelected, the conversation becomes who is his successor, but there are so many good people out there, many who are qualified to lead and many of whom are learning the right lessons right now, thinking strategically about the future, so i think our bench is pretty deep. Gabby i want to go back to something you were talking about earlier, the Republican Partys realignment in the post trump era. Theres been a lot of discussion on the right over whether the libertarian wing of the party has consolidated power, gained too much influence in Republican Party circles and has essentially shot out a shot out a willingness to talk about social issues or issues important to social conservatives. Is that an accurate assessment of the current gop . Tim i have seen some of that and to the detriment for social conservatives. The interesting thing is when you look at populist moment we are in i think there is a, there has always been harris an assumption in the Republican Party that you need to stay away from socialist issues. We know you have your principles on that, we know you have your values there, but dont run on those things because if you run on those things, you will end up losing elections. So, the social conservatives have kind of gotten elbowed into the back. I think there is a resurgence where people are saying, no, values really matter. When talking about authenticity, that is how you connect with people. The values that they share are as important to them as many of the economic situations around them. Not that the economy is not important. It is tremendously important, but i think there is room for in the future social conservatives to be a bigger part of what we are doing. And i think it makes good populist politics too. Kate immigration is an issue you have worked on with Heritage Action. The community has been saying the country needs more legal immigrants, whether it is hightech Seasonal Worker visas or the u. S. Needs more immigrant workers. The Trump Administration during the trump era, Legal Immigration is down. Are you with the chamber of commerce on this or the Trump Administration . Tim im definitely with the Trump Administration. I dont think this is rocket science. The reason this has become so hard is it is just such a political landmine. Both sides can demagogue the issue. Securing your borders, simple. Then you can have lots of conversations about if there are needs to be filled. I think the first thing you have got to in terms of the way youve got to look at it principally, the need has to be there. It cant be something that could be filled by an american worker. If it is something that could be filled by an american worker, that should be the priority first, but if there is a need, you can absolutely bring programs on board that will fill that need, if youve done the right stuff first, which is security and protecting your borders. Gabby if you were advising a republican president ial candidate in 2024 or down the road, what would you say they would need to do to consolidate the middle class gains that President Trump has brought in for the party, while also not alienating suburban voters . Is there a particular policy agenda or elements . Tim there are a couple of things here. One, the economy is important and the economy to the extent that the economy does well come well you need to sing that song over and over again. Second, immigration is something you can do and Immigration Reform im talking