susan: patty rhule, in your job at the newseum, you and your team have been charged with telling the story of the news media in society. we will talk today about news media and presidents. when you think about that relationship from a macro standpoint, what has characterized the relationship between presidents and the press throughout our history? patty: it is an interesting courtship, the relationship between the presidents and the press. early on during the campaign, the candidates want to woo the press. they know the power of the press to get their message outside. when they get in office, when the celebration is over and the reality of governing comes in, and they realize that the role of the press is to be a watchdog, to be the people's watchdog on government, to see how are they doing the job you're doing? to be a check and balance on the president. few presidents enjoy being criticized. that is often the role of the press. so that relationship for people who don't understand that, it can go very badly. susan: we will talk about changing media over time, and also changing reporting styles. when did the tradition begin that the news media should be an impartial judge? so much of our history, news reporting was you read the side that you agreed with. when did that shift? patty: it was a 20th century ideal. in the george washington days, the press was highly partisan. it was the publishers and the printers who made the case for it being time to separate from great britain and king george iii. it was highly partisan. printers were being tarred and feathered. we talk about how divided we are as a country, being an msnbc person or fox news person, but back in the early years of our country, it was very much that way. susan: and even continued past the civil war era. lincoln, you have to read both sets of newspapers to understand what was going on there. thinking in general about successful presidents, is there a correlation between presidents who know how to work the newsmen and women of the time, and how they are viewed in history? patty: absolutely. i think presidents who understand the media of their day are able to deal with it smoothly, understand the press, make friends with the press. we saw with john f. kennedy how he had that relationship with members of the press who knew things about his private life that were perhaps not very flattering and chose to overlook it. of course, it was a different time then. presidents who understand journalists who respect them for what they do, who respect the first amendment. freedom of the press, we were the first country to make that part of our governing laws, so it is very important to our foundation is a country. presidents who are not fair skinned, who understand the role of the press as being the voice of the people, and those who understand the medium of their day and are able to project through that medium. susan: we will dig into history, but not in chronological order. i want to start with the nixon presidency. the relationship between president nixon and the press seemed strained throughout much of his public life. john farrow just did a landmark nixon biography, and if you look in the index there are 16 citations under media's mutual enmity with nixon, setting the stage for it. during the cold war as a senator, he made a name for himself as a anti-communist warrior. how did the media look on him those days and when did it begin to change? patty: it was during the red scare, where people were terrified that there might be communists in our government. there were communists in our government. and yet the republic still stands. we are here. then he is on the ticket list with eisenhower on his vice presidential ticket, and the report services that mr. nixon has perhaps taken finances from someone he should not have done so, so he goes on television and he is in hot water with eisenhower, goes on television and gives his famous checkers speech. probably the height of nixon in successful television. he talks about the only present he has ever gotten was his dog, checkers, and so americans thought, oh, what a good daddy is. -- what a good guy he is. so he becomes vice president. in his presidency, his mistrust of the press is a landmark of his time in office. after he loses his first run, he goes back to california and says -- then loses another race for governor in california, and at a famous press conference he says, you are not going to have me to kick around anymore. that is his attitude. that is pretty much prevailing. house, he white creates an enemy list of reporters who are friendly, who are not friendly, has the f.b.i. investigating reporters. so that poor relationship with the press is never resurrected. it doesn't help when two young journalists from the "washington post" dig into the watergate break-in and he resigned from his presidency. susan: in john harrell's biography, he writes -- the california press corps believed nixon was using the governor's office as a stepping stone, and bridled at his expectation that they owed him a free pass. they met him with skepticism and sometimes hostility. he returned the favor, labeling them as prostitutes and hatchet men. patty: tough to get over that. how do you get past that, and of course, you have the famous kennedy-nixon debates, where nixon had come out of hospital, he doesn't look good. the first nationally televised presidential debates. president kennedy really good, a former journalist himself. people who listened to the debate on the radio thought nixon had more content, but the people who saw it on television were mesmerized with kennedy. susan: really interesting because you cited two earlier experiences, where he seems to understand the power of the media. the televised committee hearings, and then the checkers speech so was it more of a circumstance you think of his illness, or is it not known why he did not do so well in the kennedy-nixon debates? patty: i think people -- they asked kennedy, did he want makeup, he said, no, i don't. nixon thought it was perhaps not manly to put makeup on. that was probably a bad gamble on his part. makeup makes everyone look better on television. not you. you look perfect. that was the decision he made. the illness did not help. it was a poor performance on television. susan: once the watergate story broke after his landslide election, when you look at what happened between the white house and how the white house that day responded to crises versus what we're seeing with the white house today, it was a very different era in the media. what are some of the lessons on reporting around the time of watergate, and what the media was like then, versus today? patty: i think cover-up is always a mistake. whenever you are putting so much energy in a cover-up, it is always a bad sign. they really circled the wagons against the press and the media. the saturday night massacre events that happened. we are seeing elements of that today with the trump presidency. people leaving office, people who have served their government and their country for decades and decades as civil servants and as military servants, suddenly leaving. those are anomalies that the press is going to cover. when shocking things like that happen, the press has to give people an understanding of what is going on. susan: we have our first piece of video to share with you in the audience. this is richard nixon and a post-watergate story breaking news conference, november 17, 1973. just a little glimpse of how he reacts and interacts with the media. let's watch. [video clip]. >> i want to say this to the television audience. i made my mistakes, but in all of my years of public life, i have never profited from public service. i earned every cent. and in all of my years of public life, i have never obstructed justice. and i think, too, that i can say in my years of public life, that i welcome this kind of examination, because people have got to know whether or not their president is a crook. well, i'm not a crook. i've earned everything i've got. patty: those are words that would go back to haunt him. what is the headline every newspaper will say, "i am not a crook, richard nixon." yet he resigned his office. that defense tactic you see in him on television does not play well on that medium. he comes off sounding defensive all the way through. when he says, i am not a crook, the immediate thing you think is yes, he might be. susan: on the media side, a whole generation of young people were drawn into the business of journalism after woodward and bernstein. how did coverage of the president change as a result of watergate? patty: i think many young journalists saw it as a field that would be one where you could do good for society. new good other -- you could unearth conspiracy. correcting injustice, draw attention to stories that otherwise one being told. i think there were a whole generation of people who went into journalism because of the power they had, in the important story they did. i think the relationship, the cozy relationship the press and presidents had, for example, in the kennedy years, is not there much more. it became distrustful after the vietnam war, and the pentagon papers that revealed that the government had been misleading the public. it was a counterculture era where young people were challenging their elders. we have a president who has gone down to resignation in shame. many things are happening culturally that are leading people to distrust authority in general. that attitude reverberates in the press. susan: just eight years earlier in the election that nixon lost, a very different relationship between the president and the media. the term camelot often used to refer to the time. what are the things to know about how the press and john kennedy interacted during his presidency? patty: john kennedy and his wife, jacqueline, understood the power of image, understood the power their telegenic young family would have on the american public. we come from the eisenhower years of a much older president and first lady, suddenly, we have this first lady who is like a hollywood star. she sells magazine covers just by her presence. she is mysterious and soft-spoken. those young children in the white house really get a generation of americans excited about, these people are going through the same thing i am going through. the baby boom generation is watching these young children grow up in the white house. kennedy was very comfortable with the press, comfortable with the intellectual debate about ideas, and criticism about himself. you saw that in the days after his inauguration. he has the first live presidential conference. you see the bantering, that sense of humor he has. he charms the american public and the press. they admit later that they do not holding to the same standard or he not such a personally engaging person. he had a close friend in bradley at newsweek, and some senator at the washington post. those connections helped him make his way in the washington power structure. susan: another citation from john farrell on this, he wrote, kennedy could curse the press, tap their phones, keep a blacklist and pideously crush a foe, but with the confidence of wealth, good looks and breeding, he did not let the pressure got to him. nixon didn't have that quality. so is it somewhat about personality and the relationship with the press? patty: it is absolutely about personality. you see that. when president trump has been elected, he is a reality television star. his personality is one that resonates with a large percent of the american population. personality is really critical, and i think presidents who understand the best way to get their personality across through the prevailing media of the day are often the most successful. susan: we will go back further in time in history, but before we do, a little bit about you. what is your job in the newseum? patty: i am the vice president of content and exhibits. i have this wonderful job where we tell the story of the five freedoms of the first amendment, and how americans can use them to effect change from the civil rights era and onward. i have a great job. susan: how long has the museum been open? patty: the newseum had been open for 22 years. sadly we will close our location on december 31 to the public and go off into the future and figure out our mission for the future, because our mission has never been more important to explain to people, the five freedoms of the first amendment, particularly the role of the freedom of the press. susan: the newseum is funded by admission fees, and how else? patty: our primary funder is the freedom forum, our parent organization. we also have donors. and ticket prices from the people who come to see us. susan: i am sure many people watching have made it a part of their visits when they come to the nation's capital. do you have plans for where all the exhibits might be going? patty: we have our first traveling exhibit scheduled, "rise up" will travel to the museum of pop-culture in seattle next june. we also have a pulitzer prize exhibit on the road. we have "40 chances" about the power of photography to uncover the causes of hunger. so we have a lot of exhibits on the road. we will be continuing our programs and a robust walk around the journalist memorial, where we highlight journalists who have given their all, given their lives to report the truth to people around the world. susan: you came to this job as a reporter and editor. tell me about your journalism career. patty: my first job was at a small newspaper in huntington, west virginia. that folded shortly after i got there. i went to the morning paper, the herald dispatch. i worked there three years. then i came to "usa today" as a founding editor. it was a startup. no one knew nothing about us. the it became largest newspaper in the country. that was really exciting. patty: what took you to journalism in the first place? a little bit of woodward and bernstein. how you combine telling stories with a desire to make the world a better place. susan: as you look at the world of journalism from when he you started or even when "usa today" began, what are the differences today and those earlier years? patty: gosh, i wish i could be more optimistic, but there were many more journalists in the 1970's than there are right now. the losses that mainstream press publications have had to the digital news era have been decimating. particularly to local journalism. there are places where there are news deserts where there are no news outlets covering the news for a large swath of the american people. that is very troubling. we have seen the rise of digital media and the rise of social media. people see things on facebook and they see it as fact, when it is not reported like when journalists do fact checking. there really are no two sides to the story, there are multiple sides to the story. i would like to be an optimist. i would like to think the american people are going to see that members of the press are critical to our democracy, and will start supporting media. get your news from good sources, because the truth matters. susan: in september, the pew organization did one of its regular surveys on public attitudes and reported that only 41% of the public saw the news media as fair arbiters, honest brokers of what is going on. and if you look to the next level, a big partisan divide, much more trusted by democrats than republicans. what is going on there, do you think? patty: the freedom forum is an -- does an annual survey, and our numbers are a little better than that, people are feeling better about the press. i would say it has to do with your political point of view. the internet and digital media has allowed us to stay in digital bubbles of our own thought. we can go to a place where we can only see red state news, or only see blue state news, which reinforces your ideas about the world, the government and the role of the press. i think the press missed a big story in 2016 when donald trump was elected. much of the mainstream media pooh-poohed that possibility and said hillary clinton was going to win. i think perhaps the news media needed to do some soul-searching after that -- how can we better serve the public, how can we better do the job we are here to do? susan: we will continue and go back to the very founding. george washington, the only president elected unanimously. how long was his honeymoon? patty: not very long, sadly. [laughter] he first comes to the press, he is a land owner, uses newspapers to advertise for runaway slaves and things like that, so he is a person of that era. as a general, he is critical of the press because he sees the press as revealing the location to the enemy too often. nevertheless, he is reading loyalist newspapers, loyal to the crown, of course. and when he comes into office, again, a highly partisan press starts sniping at him, accusing him of all sorts of malfeasance, he is taken aback by it. he is quite thin-skinned about it, and he does not appreciate it. of course, later in life, he is the father of our country. his reputation stands the test of time, but in office, he does not appreciate the criticism about him. this highly partisan press is saying really horrible things about him. tough to read. susan: historians in mount vernon said, the popular press exploded from under 50 newspapers in 1776 to over 250 newspapers by 1800, encouraged by new federal laws that made it cheaper to send newspapers through the post. so the politicians, although they are unhappy with the coverage, still enable the growth of the news media. patty: he subscribed to 30 plus newspapers, he is a voracious newsreader of the press. despite his smarting at the criticism he received at the hands of the press, on the net night before he died, he was sitting there reading the paper, discussing the news of the day. he understood the important role of the press to inform the public about critical events. susan: historian ron chernow, of "hamilton" fame, used it to give a history lesson on the relationship between the president and the press. we have a clip on what he said about george washington. [video clip] ron: washington became the victim of the most preposterous slander when the opposition press charged he had been a secret british agent throughout the revolutionary war. obviously, the british had gotten a very poor return on their investment. [laughter] some of the most blistering attacks against washington came from an unexpected source, his secretary of state, thomas jefferson, that hired a poet as state department translator. in truth jefferson had recruited him to found a party organ called the national gazette, that would publish slashing broadsides against the very president jefferson served. the poet performed his task with such malicious gusto that he would drop off copies of his incendiary paper on washington's doorstep everyday. it is hard to convey the anguish that seized washington's mind as he reels from press criticism. susan: any additional comments on washington after watching that? patty: he understands the power of the press to move people during the dark moment of the revolutionary war. he has his generals gathered to reach to the truth thomas payne's "crisis." reading quotes from that -- the dark of the night, the terrible moment of the war when things are cold, there is not much food, he is trying to rally the troops with why we need to do this. these are the times that try men's souls. imagine how moving that would have been. how powerfully george washington must have thought about the people who were writing these words that were inspiring this new nation to be birthed. susan: did his successor have the same powerful feelings about the role of the press in patty: john adams also does not appreciate being criticized by the press. during his administration, we have the alien and sedition acts. at that point, we are kind of on the verge of war with france. so these acts are passed, one which makes it illegal to criticize the president or the congress. this is a way that the government is saying, we don't want anyone to be undermining our government at this time of war, when we're possibly at the verge of war. the passage of the act, just a few years after the first amendment has been passed, is the first test of this first amendment freedom, freedom of the press. he ends up being a one term president, and leads to jefferson being elected, because people did not like the idea of their freedom of the press, which they did not have under the king, being undermined come -- undermined in any way. susan: let's return to run churn out for a minute. [video clip] >> during the administration of john adams, the country lurched into a period reaction in the medium, rampant fear of foreigners. congress enacted the alien and sedition acts, which made it a crime for journalists to write about the president in a scandalous or malicious fashion. at this dark moment jefferson , with his prophecy "with a little patience, we shall see the reign of witches passed, their spells dissolved." led that john adams not only -- let it me known that john adams not only lost his reelection campaign in 1800, but his jeffersonian opponents range supreme for the next quarter century. susan: however, we heard thomas jefferson was not above using reporting to go after washington's policies, and he also had some difficulties himself reporting about his own private life during his administration. what are the lessons of thomas jefferson? patty: thomas jefferson is an idealist. the famous quote of -- even the -- given the choice of government with no newspapers, or newspapers with no government, i would not hesitate to choose the latter. that quote is often used as he is a champion of the first amendment and freedom of the press. was again, what you are in office, the nice come out, a very highly partisan press, the beat goes on. the scurrilous charges those newspapers are throwing at politicians at the time would really shocked people today, the language that was used in the things that were said. he did not appreciate that. so while he likes the ideal of the first amendment and freedom of the press, he wants the press to be available to all, he wants everyone to be literate, everyone is not literate at the time, nor are they today for that matter. he went people to have access to the press. he wants the press to be literate. and also, even though he was a champion of the first amendment, he thinks perhaps the states can deal with the issues of libel and press freedom on that. he doesn't see the dichotomy of that idea that, yes, we are for freedom of the press and its glorious openness, and yet, perhaps, there might be some ways that the states themselves can limit it somewhat. susan: we are going to fast-forward to lincoln, the president facing probably the greatest test of any president, the civil war. you have described his relationship with the press as complicated. why? patty: he comes to office at a time with two incredible innovations are happening with mass media. one is the rise of photography, and the other is the transcontinental telegraph. people can get news more quickly than they have before. this works out well for his generals during the civil war. it also works out well for the american people getting use of -- news of the war and how it has gone much more quickly than it has before. there were galleries on pennsylvania avenue of matthew brady's photographs. famously, lincoln gives a speech at cooper union in new york. matthew brady takes a photograph of that. it is replicated in woodcarvings in newspapers. abraham lincoln gives credit. he said, it was matthew brady and the cooper union speech that made me the president today. it is the power of images that people relate to, understanding to see you as a person and to understand you. lincoln was adept at that. susan: how about at the time the war was really raging? there were partisan newspapers on both sides. how did in fact he react to the coverage of the news about him? what should we learn about his time dealing with reporters under crisis? patty: well, he is known to have hung out at telegraph offices, hung out with journalists. he invited journalists to the white house. when the war is getting to its intense point the secretary of war stanton, has no problem dismissing certain journalists who are not reporting the news the way they want it to be. he limits access to the telegraph, which will kill it -- which will kill the reporter trying to get the news more quickly to his readership. journalists are arrested and charged with various treason and other things at the time. and lincoln kind of looks the other way. susan: so he always tops surveys as our greatest leader among presidents. with that sort of record, and the restrictions of rights and the media, what do you think people have forgiven him and processed about, and still put him at the top of the list? those are some pretty serious reactions to his coverage? patty: they are. but i think we found like after 9/11, people are willing to give up their first amendment freedoms in the case of security, and i think president playoff that sometimes to an threat ofgrees of the the free-flowing media and people can have. susan: we have an image from the library of congress to give a little flavor of the criticism abraham lincoln faced. i will explain this, because people will not be able to see it close-up, but it is a cartoon, a depiction of columbia, the united states, who is confronting president lincoln , " mr. lincoln, give me back my 500,000 sons. the cartoonist since with a proclamation calling for 500,000 more troops, signed by him and his reply is, the fact is, by the way, that reminds me of a story. the archivist says it is referring to false reports published that lincoln had joked on the battlefield at antietam. a critical press, and the president under siege both politically and with the media around him. as we close on the lincoln era, what was changing with the news media? the telegraph, photography, they were partisan, are we about to enter a new age of reporting as we leave the civil war era, and come to a more stable time? patty: not quite yet. [laughter] getting a bit better. he has been criticized more by the southern press. publishers from all sides were going after lincoln. that is the nature of war, a time that was -- our country apart, and what like what is happening today in that very few people are pleased when hundreds of thousands of young men are losing their lives to a battle that some feel was not necessary. of course, we now know that was a transformational moment in our nation's history and that is why lincoln, more books have been written about him than any other president. he is still seen as incredibly getting the country through that horrific period. susan: as we start to grasp through the later part of the 19th century we stressed to hear the biggest names in newspaper history bullets are, etc., what is happening to the american consumption of the news in that part of the century and the people who publish them? patty: pulitzer is a good example, the "new york sun," the mass media is really happening. the penny press. more newspapers being published, more people having access to them. there is a newspaper war between pulitzer and hearst. they have done a lot of things to push coverage forward. he understands the power of the type of coverage -- women's coverage, making newspapers more accessible to the common man. not everyone is highly educated at this time. the fact that he is making the media more open to the public is really a huge moment. susan: by the time theodore roosevelt comes into office at the dawn of the 20th century, big changes with how he treats the press. tell me about some of them. patty: teddy roosevelt is a very big personality. he understands the power of the press to help get his image and ideas across. he makes friends with the press, if they are friendly with him, makes them feel like they are part of his work. he brings the press to the white house, very close to his office. so there is that intimacy people feel, that when he is sitting down with members of the press and saying, i am going to tell you this, but just put this on a high-level source, or an anonymous source. it makes the reporters feel like they are in on the story, and makes them feel like they are part of the presidency, which is a tricky place for journalists to be. he is very much aware -- the power of the soundbite, the power of image. he does things that make news -- he goes down in a submarine on long island sound, he arrives on horseback for 98 miles to prove , to the first that he is a robust of the military centers would have soldiers be. these are all incredible moments that the press, which is looking to grab the public's interest with things that are other than drony, zoning board reports, everybody wants to see that. that is a fun story. he understands that power. s stick.dbite "i carry a big stick." "my hat is in the ring." the early soundbites. these are things that capture the american public, that plain speaking style. his image is a powerful part of the presidency. susan: interesting thing from his presidency, he is edited -- credited with establishing press relations as an official function at the white house. he established the first press room at the white house and elevated the press secretary to the level of cabinet position. patty: he is understanding, this will be important to my life. i need to have members of the press on my side to sell me as the president, and he clearly understood that. susan: on the other hand, it was the age of the progressive journalist, upton sinclair and others, they will not always buy into the roosevelt program or to the majority storyline at the time. how did he react to those folks? patty: in his lovely turn of phrase, he labeled them muckrakers, people who were willing to dig up dirt but not offer solutions to it. that is really casting a negative -- against people who are doing significant journalism about the ills of our country, about lynching, corporations that are doing things that are hurting people. he just says, no, they are not offering solutions, which is really quite painful. susan: the term muckrakers stays with us today. patty: it does indeed. susan: what does it mean today? patty: it is a badge of courage. it is a moment of pride. you are bringing up stories that people don't want to be seen, shining a light on places that are dark and it shouldn't be. susan: let's move on into history and head into the fdr era. not too many years, but the world is changing by the time fdr and eleanor come along. in our conversations before, you said you think fdr perhaps had the best press relations during the 20th century. why is that? patty: i think he understood the press. i think he also understood the importance of the time he was living in and the moment that he was trying to get across the american people. he used the fireside chats and people felt like he was talking to them directly. "my friends," he would say, and people would be leaning into the phonograph. -- leaning into the radio. you see those wonderful photographs. he considered himself a bit of a writer. of course, eleanor roosevelt had her radio program and wrote magazine columns as well. they had an understanding of the power of radio and newspapers to get their message across to people. he made his voice the voice that everyone would trust during times of the great depression, during the world war. that unity of message and the unity of voice really helped get americans through major crises of our history and a weight that came out in a positive way. enough, thesegly newspaper publishers, often republicans committed not like all the changes he was having because business sacrifices had to be made. so even though newspapers were not often behind him, supporting his candidacy, the american people saw through that and saw what he was doing, and those very practiced fireside chats, he would rehearse and rehearse and rehearse, so the message would get across exactly the way he wanted it to get across. really a powerful, powerful statement. the press again, being very respectful of him. he contracted polio and as a result, he couldn't walk unaided. there was just a general rule that it was verboten to show him on his crutches, even though he would joke about him. on the rare occasion that newspapers and magazines would show an image of him, or mention his leg, the american people would write back and they, don't say that -- and say, don't say that about our president. interestingly enough, magazines and publications kind of backed off on that. they are drawing a line in the sand out of what they expect of their president. susan: if you had to characterize the majority attitude of reporters covering the white house at the time, were they critical of his policies, we are talking about image, but on a policy standpoint, where they critical or mostly supportive of what the president was trying to do? patty: mostly supportive, but there were things he couldn't get through, even with all his charm, initiatives couldn't get through, but mostly supportive. susan: eleanor roosevelt, her contributions to the evolution of reporting. she actually had a press conference as a first lady. the other thing is that she did -- she insisted that women reporters covered her as she progressed through the white house years. how important was that in the evolution of journalism? patty: absolutely critical. thank you, eleanor. long overdue. it was very rare that there were women journalists at the time, and making that statement was a crucial one. of course, several years after that before women are more widely seen in newsrooms. it is in the 1970's when that happens, as well as people of color. so, putting that line in the sand is an important one. to get career started, to get people thinking that women had a role in this industry, as in every industry. susan: we will jump from the 1940's to the 1960's and lyndon johnson. he comes into office under the worst circumstances, the assassination of john kennedy. did he have a honeymoon as president after that? patty: he did. he, again, very much understood the power of image. the famous photo when he being sworn in on air force one, he makes sure that newly widowed jacqueline kennedy is seen. what a horrific request that for him to make that request in a horrible moment in her life, not just to say to the american people, but to the world that this government will continue. there is continuity. there is no coup. i am in charge. the torch has been passed. he goes into a series of legislative successes, landmark civil rights legislation is passed. much on the glow of the kennedy presidency and wanting to see many of kennedy's ideas put forth into action. but then, as happens with many presidents, the vietnam war leads him. susan: how important is it, that johnson had his own media empire? patty: very important. in texas, lady bird johnson purchased radio station, than they had newspapers, so that really helped him on his rise in texas. we have seen lbj corralling reporters in that very intimidating style, and that was very much his style with the press. you either for him or against him. he was not below calling your boss if your boss was president of the network, if the story you had done it not please him. -- you had done did not please him. so he is trying to work both sides of it, trying to be friends with reporters as well as the powerful moguls who run the various broadcasting companies and newspapers at the time, but you can see where that doesn't play very well if you are a reporter on the beat, that he will call out on cbs if you do a story that displeases him. which he did to morley safer when he did a famous report out of vietnam that showed marines using lighters to torch civilian villages. of course, there were multiple sides to the story. the televised images being seen on the evening news horrified americans as well as lbj, and he called the head of the network to complain about it. susan: at this point in time, there were three network newscasts dominant in society. would you talk about how people were consuming news, and how presidents managed to use that consumption of everyone at tuning in at the same time to watch news to their benefit? patty: the three network news shows, that was the way most people got their news, and it still is the way most people get their news, broadcast news. it is being rivaled by internet but still the way most people get their news. there was a very powerful, those three gentlemen who were sending the news to everybody each night were very powerful. when walter cronkite says, "seems like the vietnam war will be a stalemate." when lbj sees that he says, "if i have lost cronkite, i have lost the american public." he knows the power of walter cronkite making on the evening news and most people tuning in is a critical moment in his presidency. susan: we have one of the famous lyndon johnson phone calls in 1968 to serve as an example of that relationship you talked about, about not being afraid to pick up the phone and express his anger about things. let's listen. >> i wanted to tell you about hanging my head in this hand. particularly at cronkite and what i would say, very unfair, personal lies they are reporting of these fellows. i think you ought to know that opinion because you would be disappointed with me if i didn't tell you that. i am just telling you, frankly that i think the industry is wrecking all of us. susan: reaction? is prettyt heavy-handed. i can imagine what it was like for the journalist the next day. i am sure he would not call the journalist in the next day. the fact that he says, "wrecking the country," very disturbing. we hear that today with president trump. the press is not the enemy of the american people. the press is doing the work of the american people, trying to inform on people in power. is your school board spending the money the way it should, are your students being educated? our children being kept in cages? these are stories that are important and critical to us, and the fact that presidents question the patriotism of reporters trying to do their jobs, is very troubling. susan: during the vietnam war, there were regular press conferences that give out figures that were inaccurate about the casualties happening in vietnam, hoping, i think, to keep public opinion about the war at bay. what did that due to the skepticism of journalists? we talked earlier about the impact of watergate. what was the effect of the vietnam-era as reporters were sitting through these press conferences and then finding out the numbers were not jiving with what was happening on the ground? patty: it leads to major mistrust. you talked about the credibility gap lbj had with the american people and the press. that phrase would really come to haunt him. again, we see the things happening in society, changes with the counterculture. people no longer trusting the government. they lied to us about the vietnam war. 55,000 people are dead in this country because of that, and they have lied to us about this. television news showing images of the war, there were images, the korean war was on television a bit, but each week, the drumbeat of these numbers of casualties in vietnam, it takes a toll on the american public. the images that they see and the fact that it is not going well, they did understand where you are there in the first place leads to lbj deciding he will not run for reelection. susan: let's move to more current times. earlier, you made reference to the public in the wartime the willing to give up their rights, especially to the freedom of speech. talk about 9/11 and what happen in this country with the american public, and the willingness to trade some of their right for security, especially in the relationship between the press and the president? patty: i would say we saw people lashing out at people who questioned in any way the war effort or the aftermath of 9/11. people who were questioning, were we going after the right people? people were being seen as not being patriotic. the american people did not like that. they felt that we should be monolithically behind whatever the president says we should be doing. that is not the role of the press. again, it is the role of the press to question authority, are we doing the right thing? in the aftermath, we found out that wars were waged for really no connection to 9/11 at all. susan: in 2008, president obama was coming into office, the war was going on. at the same time, we have the historic election with america's first african-american president. what happened with the relationship between obama white house and the press as he came into office? what was that like? patty: i think the president was aware of the historic nature of his presidency. obama was not the first presidential candidate to use the power of social media, but he certainly did it very skillfully, with targeted emails and targeted radio, reports of people and popular culture. i mean, his "yes we can," will.i.am of the black eyed peas makes a powerful video that is seen by many people. pop culture figures weighing in on the obama presidency. oprah winfrey, before he even throws his hat in the ring says, put your money behind barack obama. the historic nature of his presidency, the fact that this is a moment that people had long longed for, leads to a bit of a long honeymoon. but then when he clashes with congress and when his campaign promises are not always able to be realized, things change. he is also president understands the medium at this time. he is the first president to go on the daily show with jon stewart, a late-night satirical news program that captured the attention of young people at the time. twooes on between comedians. he goes on a crazy comedy show. but he understands the power of these people, forces in popular culture to get a message to people that he might not otherwise be reaching. susan: however, there were some times during his administration when he cracked down on whistleblowers. the administration actually monitored phone records, subpoenaed reporters, let's not forget the case from the "new york times." how do we put all of that through an understanding of how this administration approached these situations with the media? patty: control of image. that is what all presidents wants to do, they want to control the image. he did not like the idea that people were leaking information or trying to get information that he did not want to be made public. barack obama is not exactly a first amendment champion. up until this time, he has prosecuted more journalists and whistleblowers than any other presidency in history. susan: how have you told his story in the newseum? patty: we talk about his incredible social-media clout, but again, using it for yourself, social-media also bites back. there were journalists who captured unscripted moments of him on the campaign trail, that ended up reverberating as not being very flattering. things that he said, the famous things he said about people hiding the hiding their guns, guns were a religion in pennsylvania. nonetheless, the incredible access social-media lends to everyone in the world means that people have access to the moments you wouldn't them to have access to. susan: throughout history, you have told us each president has tried to access the press to put their story forward. now that we come to the 2016 election and the real rise of social media, and then we have a president elected, who his first president with his own twitter account that he uses all the time by himself, what has been the effect of having a president with direct access to the public, sort of bypassing the traditional media to speak to the public and especially his supporters? patty: it has been a powerful tool that the president has. the fact that he doesn't have to go through any gatekeepers, people saying, wait a minute, that is not exactly true. he has millions of followers reading exactly what he wants to say. there is no questioning were -- there is no no second-guessing, it is just, this is what the truth is,. according to me. that is a very big threat of the press and the role that the press has played traditionally. it is a period that the news industry is struggling with itself, how do we counter that? how do we counter someone who goes and spews forth on his social media channels, information that we know is not true? how do we counter that? i think the press is still struggling with the best way to do that. susan: at the same time he is speaking directly to the public on his twitter account, he also criticizes the news media. we have one final clip we want to show. he is criticizing of "the new york times" for their coverage. let's watch, then we will wrap this all up. [video clip] pres. trump: i came from jamaica, queens. i became president of the united states. i am sort of entitled to a great story, just one, from the newspaper, you know? >> he just wanted his hometown paper to write one positive story about him. >> he just wants the times to that is what he said. say something nice about him. pres. trump: i am entitled to one good story in "the new york times." i started off, i ran against very smart people. a lot of them. >> he said that a few times. pres. trump: i just think i am entitled to a great story from "the new york times." i have done something nobody has ever done. susan: this was the podcast the "new york times" created after their exchange with the president about their coverage. what do you hear in the president's voice there? patty: it is a little sad. i am entitled to something nice from my hometown newspaper. you see the validation he wants from the "new york times," which he calls the "failing new york times" now. they have not given him the story he wanted. he was elected king, he was elected president. people's right to free speech and power of assembly and protest, president trump like all presidents has endured those first amendment freedoms. it is not always pleasant to be on the other end of that. but it is the role of the press to be challenging, to be critical to question things for , the american people, that is what the will of the press is. let's bring it all the way back and put a ribbon around this conversation today. when we look back across our entire history of relationships between the presidents and the reporters, journalists covering him sometimes, hack newspapers depending on the era we are in. what are the important takeaways people should have about this relationship, how it has worked, and how it has benefited society? patty: i think the important part would be for the president to be respectable of the press, and its importance in society, and respect the fact that they will get criticism at some point. and perhaps learn from the criticism. it is important for presidents to understand the power of the media. they certainly do. we have got michael bloomberg, just threw his hat in the ring. he has got a powerful global news network. that will be interesting to see how that plays out. the press played a critical role in our democracy. it is why the founding fathers made it the first amendment of the constitution, that the power press will not be -- congress will not change that power of the freedom of the press. so i think it is important that presidents remember that and be respectable of the press. i think that mutual respect will come across in the information people get in order to make important decisions about their life and their country. susan: patty rhule, you have spent the last decade and a half helping people understand how the news media works. thank you for helping us understand more about the evolution of the relationship between presidents and that -- and the journalists who cover them. patty: thank you, susan. i appreciate it. ♪ announcer: all q&a programs are available on our website, or as a podcast at cspan.org. jacksonsunday, holly discusses her book "american reticles" on 19th century protests shaping the nation -- her book "american reticles." that is next saturday night at 8:00 eastern on c-span. still to come live today on the c-span networks, in about half an hour, the brookings institution looks at the role china plays in the asia-pacific region and how the u.s. and other countries in that region are responding. that is at 2:00 p.m. eastern here on c-span. p.m. eastern,2:00 a on nuclear security with assistant secretary of security and nonproliferation christopher ford. you can watch it on c-span2. and more campaign 2020 coverage coming up with presidential candidate senator elizabeth warren. she holds a town hall gathering at the university of iowa this afternoon. you can watch that live starting at four eastern here on c-span and also online at c-span.org or listen live with the free c-span radio app. tonight on the communicators, the chair of u.s. telecom's board of directors and ceo of consolidated communications -- >> you have 37,000 or so miles of fiber-optic cable. where exactly is that? >> it is everywhere. in the ground, in the air, in the communities with which they serve. states, it those 23 is typically outside the urban markets. the largest town where we are in the downtown area places like portland, maine, or roseville, california.

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