i'm proud to say that maine is home to more than 114,000 veterans. the second highest percentage in our entire country. we owe them such a great debt. the gratitude we express in words on veterans day can repay this debt only in small measure. a truly grateful nation must match its words with actions. as we will learn today, one issue that calls for our immediate action is to fight a newer enemy facing our veterans and that is those relentless con artists who seek to rob them of their life savings and defraud them of the benefits they have earned in service to our country. often, veterans fall victim to the same scams that this committee has highlighted in recent years such as the irs imposter scam, the grandparent scam, the romance scam, the jamaican lottery scheme and identity theft. there's also troubling evidence that some fraudsters are deliberately targeting veterans and they're structuring their scams in order to reach our veterans. for example, in a case that we will hear more about today, a fraudster set up an entity called the veterans pension planners of america. sounds legitimate, doesn't it? it was not. she used it to operate what is often referred to as an aid and attendance scam. her pitch was that she could help veterans diversify their assets to get beneath the threshold to qualify for va benefits if they released their assets to her. instead she stole their assets and spent their money. all told, she defrauded 78 victims out of $2 million before she was arrested and convicted on multiple state and federal charges. scammers exploit public support for those who have served our country by creating fake charities that supposedly raise money for needy veterans but instead funnel funds from generous contributors to greedy fraudsters. in one recent case, the con artist operating out of michigan was convicted of stealing nearly $200,000 from 36 victims who thought they were donating to charities benefitting veterans. not only did the veterans never see a dime of this money, the fraudster added insult to injury by stealing the victim's personally identifiable information to commit identify theft. fortunately through the very good work of the u.s. postal inspections service, this criminal is now behind bars. other criminals promised to help veterans claim benefits from nonexistent government programs or they charge inappropriate fees for helping veterans apply for the benefits they've earned or they exploit the sense of camaraderie that veterans feel for one another to gain their victim's trust and swindle them out of their savings. these regrettably are not isolated examples. surveys show that more than three quarters of our veterans have been contacted by con artists. given these facts, what action should we take to protect our veterans? certainly the cases we will highlight in this hearing show the value of aggressive prosecution. that sends a real message to other criminals out there that they will be pursued, they will be caught, and they will be brought to justice. but it's this committee has often noted, many con artists operate offshore, beyond the reach of our state and local law enforcement and some veterans are simply too embarrassed to report that they have been scammed. although they shouldn't be because it can happen to anyone. instead, we must find ways to protect our veterans from scams before they become victims. education is one way. that's one of the reasons we're holding this hearing today. another is to build on the comradery veterans have for one another by bringing them together to provide another set of eyes. the non-profit vet to vet maine program shows how the trusted judgment of a fellow veteran can stop a scam before it starts. before closing, i want to note the reason gao study that identified actions that the veterans administration can take to better protect veterans from aid and attendance scams. according to the gao, i believe that the va should take a leading role in this fight. the ranking member and i, as well as other members of this committee, will be writing to the secretary of the va to ask what steps the department is taking to assess the risk posed to our nation's veterans and what can be done to better protect them from fraud. as veterans day approaches, we remember all those who serve, not just by honoring their service through our words, but also by the actions that we take. veterans and their families have a right to expect that the nation they served will fight to protect them from unscrupulous individuals. as the aarp says in its bulletin, they protected us, now it's our turn. i now am happy to turn to our ranking member for his opening statement. thank you. >> chairman collins, thank you for holding this very important hearing especially as we prepare for veterans day. i'm pleased as i know we all are that we're joined by three veterans, one of whom is an active reservist on this panel today. we want to thank each of you for your service to the country and grateful for your testimony today. veterans day is only days away and it's a day when we honor those who served our country not only in war but also in peace. and it's a reminder of our abiding responsibility to serve them, to serve them in return. president lincoln outlined a simple mandate when it comes to the care that our veterans are owed, quote, that we must care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, unquote. way back in 1991, my father was taking the oath of office as governor and it happened to be the day before the invasion of iraq when our soldiers were heading into combat and at that time he said -- and i'm quoting -- we pray for them and for ourselves that we may be worthy of their valor, unquote. being worthy of their valor, if you happen to be a member of congress, if you're going to prove yourself worthy of their valor, you ought to prove it by your actions. here in the senate and the congress overall, we have the opportunity and the ability to demonstrate that we are worthy of their valor by ensuring that veterans receive every single benefit that they are owed and even more. and when we learn of barriers to those benefits, we must work to overcome those barriers. that's why i'm fighting so hard to hold the department of veterans affairs accountable for providing every veteran access to information about their va benefits. my legislation, the va website accountability act, which i hope we can pass by the end of this year, would get us one step closer to comprehensive accessibility for veterans. it's why i'm fighting to ensure that caregivers who watch over our veterans every single day are supported and given respite. the supporting of veterans caregivers act would ensure caregivers cannot be kicked out of the va caregivers program. and as we'll discuss today, it's why chairman collins and i wanted to hold this hearing to ensure that not one more veteran, not one more veteran loses one more penny to a scammer, a schemer, or a con artist. so we must not stop with just the hearing. we know that 78% of veterans report receiving a scam attempt related to their veteran status. almost eight out of ten. if we are to be worthy of the valor of our veterans, this number should be zero, not 78%, it should be zero. a recent report from the gao found that the va lacks a central clearinghouse for soliciting and collecting information on potential financial exploitation of veterans receiving pension benefits. to say this is troubling is an understatement. the gao provided the va with clear recommendations for addressing this problem and now i'm quoting, quote, systematically solicit and collect information on potential financial exploitation, unquote, and, quote, assess this information to address plans -- to address the potential exploitation of veterans receiving pension benefits, unquote. instead of working to implement the recommendations, the va is putting in place a process that the gao claims would, quote, not fully address the underlying issue, unquote. i think they're being a little charitable in their assessment of what the va is doing in response. this is totally unacceptable. that's why we're sending a letter, members of this committee, chairman collins and i and others, to find out more about this decision and also why the va is not doing more to combat scams against veterans. and as we'll hear today, in order to put an end to the predatory practice of scammers, scammers of the worst kind of who prey upon those who serve, there needs to be an all hands on deck approach. we need to find a way to stop these scammers from getting through phone lines, we need to be sure that people are educated about how to avoid becoming victims of a scam. there must be a place to report scammers, whether it's the department of justice, the federal trade commission, the va or right here at the aging committee by way of our fraud hotline. we need to ensure that prosecutors have the tools they need to go after these criminals and keep them behind bars. i'm certain that our hearing today will touch upon all of these topics and more, but it's unconscionable to me that someone who would stoop so low as to steal money from someone who agreed to sacrifice so much for our country and it's also unconscionable to me and i know members of this committee, that someone would also stoop so low to pad their own pockets by spewing a tale of caring for veterans when they're doing nothing of the kind. chairman collins, this hearing could not be more important. we thank you for holding it and we look forward to the testimony of our witnesses. >> thank you, senator casey. i want to acknowledge that senator brawn and senator blumenthal have joined us and we're now going to turn to our panel of witnesses. our first witness is ben wells from portland, maine. mr. wells is an air force veteran who participated in operation enduring freedom. he flew 35 combat missions, earned an air medal and was honorably discharged in 2013. he then had the wisdom to move to the great state of maine where he became involved in the vet to vet program. a local non-profit that matches veterans for companionship, mentorship, and other assistance. i will now turn to our ranking member to introduce our second witness. >> thank you, chairman collins. i'm pleased to introduce leverne foreman. thank you for making the trip and we're grateful you're willing to be with us. he served in the u.s. air force, the u.s. army reserve as well as the national guard. he worked as a civilian employee for the army. he's here today to share with us what happened to him a few years ago when con artists stole money from him claiming it would go to a veterans organization. leverne later learned there was no organization, he reported what happened and it's possible he'll be able to help the prosecution of the scammers. i'd also like to welcome leverne's wife, doris, who is with us today, his daughter terry and son-in-law jeffrey who are also here. we're also grateful, leverne, as we are to all of our veterans today and we hope every day we're grateful for your service but especially for taking the time to be here. thank you. thank -- >> thank you. our next witness will be dewane richardson, the district attorney for three counties in mississippi. he has been a real leader in combatting these scams. first selected at the tender age of 30, one of the youngest das in the state's history, mr. richardson later became the first african-american to serve as president of the mississippi prosecutors association and finally, last but certainly not least, we will hear from inspector carol harris, the acting inspector in charge of the communications strategy group at the united states postal inspection service. he's also a lieutenant colonel in the u.s. marine corps reserves who served in iraq and kuwait. he now leads operation protect veterans for the postal inspection service and will discuss its efforts to combat fraud targeting our veterans. mr. wells, we'll begin with you. thank you all for being here. >> thank you. chairman collins, ranking member, casey, members of the committee, thank you for having me here. it's an honor to speak about this issue. as you said, senator collins, i was an air force veteran, i got out in 2013 and relocated to maine in 2014. upon arriving there i wanted to continue my dedication to service and i was looking for opportunities to volunteer while i applied to graduate schools. i found vet to vet maine and i liked what they had to say. they offered companionship for isolated veterans. there's a significant number of veterans in the state. what i would also like to emphasize is there's a significant number of elderly men and women in the state and veterans are not exception. what vet to vet maine seeks to address is the isolation of those veterans but also connect them with benefits that they likely qualify before and haven't been receiving. so when vet to vet contacted me, i went in and connected me with a veteran force veteran. he was a maintainer on jet aircraft. over the course of several weeks, i was in his house once a week meeting with him and his wife. you know, conversation, coffee, taking him out to lunch, getting out of the house. it was clear to me they were isolated. they lived in wyndham, maine, which is not a metropolitan area. i is not a metropolitan area. i was able to have a good connection with them. and i became aware that he had never in 60 years of being out of the military, been connected with the va in any way. i became aware his wife had had contact with the vet to vet maine program as a way to get respite care as he was in declining health. he had significant health problems, including physical issues, chronic pain and diabetes. at the time i saw him, they were spending hundreds of dollars of diabetes medication alone and living off a small pension from a telecommunications -- his work in telecommunications and his social security benefits. that became my first order of business, get him connected to the va and get the medical care, pharmaceutical care he not only qualified for and deserved, but really needed. in the process i was able to help them fill out the paperwork. i contacted the vet to vet maine program to get him a case manager, make them aware of his needs in the home and see if there were other organizations that could help them out. in that process, she continued -- as paperwork was slow to process, as it always is, she continued to reach out. she saw an ad in the newspaper, i think it came with the coupons, for a program that was advertising free home care and respite care for veterans. sounds really good. she contacted this organization. she had the foresight to reach out to me to sit in on this conversation. i accepted. the nature of this was two gentlemen showed up to the house offering free respite or in home care to them. their sales pitch was what they were going to do is they were going to assist them in obtaining a pension from the va and that would also allow them access to the aid and attendance program as you previously mentioned. what they wanted and what struck me, sort of the first red flag in the situation was that how they're going to finance this. they wanted my veteran to open up a separate checking account they had draft rights on so they could autodraft. they were going to auto deduct whatever pension and benefit they got. that's not out and out illegal or anything, but there's no conversation as to why that existed instead of regular payment methods. i started to ask questions. they then continued and said how they were going to get him to qualify the means test, which all these pension and benefits are means tested. he was slightly over. at which point he started to describe a method they could report medical bills to the va to lower their total income and pass the means test. that's fine. except that even with medical bills, even with the hundreds of dollars in insulin they weren't going to pass it. he suggested that they employ, in air quotes, their daughter, as a medical aide, which she was not qualified, trained or certified in, to do things like filling their prescriptions over the phone or going and picking up prescriptions and this sort. they could pay her, which they weren't going to, a stipend and then put that into their account. the fuzzy math is where i really threw down -- this wasn't a good idea. luckily, they had trusted me, i said you really shouldn't do this. and they were able to avoid the scam. they ended up going through the regular process. they got benefits, in home care and respite care through va and other organizations. ultimately he was moved to hospice and then passed. at least in the later stages of his life he had that care and it didn't put significant financial strain on the veteran. thank you. >> thank you so much for intervening and caring enough to do so. i can't imagine what the final years of life would have been for this couple if they hadn't followed your advice. i'm sure that they would have lost everything they were getting that was in that separate checking account. mr. foreman? >> chairman collins, members of the committee, i thank you for inviting me to testify here today today. it's an honor today and talk to you about veterans scams. my name is laverne foreman, and i'm 82 years old. i live in the hernden area in pennsylvania. i'm retired both from the civil service as well as the military. having served in the air force, the army reserves and the army national guard. i'm proud to be a veteran. for most part, people thank me for my service. it never occurred to me that someone would be so cold hearted to make a call and claim to care for veterans when in reality all they're doing is lining their own pockets. five years ago i learned how reckless they can be. when i received a phone call from senator casey's office inviting me to testify before you today, i was pleased to accept the invitation and share with you what happened. it isn't easy for me to talk about this scam. what i'm doing today is an extension of my service. i feel alt sense of responsibility to warn others who served and to be vigilant against scams. let me explain, in september of 2014, i received a call from an organization disabled and paralyzed veterans fund or dpvf. requesting a donation. i was told in the conversation that the organization was dedicated to helping disabled and paralyzed veterans. it raised funds to support va hospital and end veteran homelessness. i've donated to similar organizations in the past because of my concerns for and the sensitivity of my peers. i pledged at that time to send a one time donation to dpvf for $20. however, when i received a pledge later, the organization they sent me it showed i had pledged $25. i thought this was odd, however rather than arguing with them, i sent the $25 as listed. the following year in 2015, dpbf called me again to request a donation. i pledged to give an amount that was given previously. again when i received a pledge letter it was a few dollars more than i had pledged on the phone. this time, $35. i grew even more suspicious and but believed it was it was just the way the fundraiser is trying to get more money. i tried calling the organization in washington, d.c they listed a washington, d.c. telephone number. but it was of no help. i ended up writing a letter to them to explain that i had agreed to a lower amount and i questioned their approach. i enclosed the check for the $35 i didn't want to get into an argument and i asked them at that time to remove my name from their contact list. i didn't want to hear from them again. in february of 2016, when i received my statement from my credit union, i noticed a check listed with a number that's not within the number sequence of my checks. i thought it was strange, so i called my credit union and they confirmed that it was a remotely generated check from paralyzed and disabled veterans fund. i was kind of shocked that they must have made a copy of my check and kept the routing and account number information. i hadn't spoken to this organization or sent a recent donation and i realize i was scammed. there's a lot of legitimate organizations that can serve as organization said, you know, like paralyzed veterans of american, disabled american veterans. i realized there's no such organization as the disabled and paralyzed veterans fund. at that point, i reported this matter to the pennsylvania attorney general's office. i was later contacted by the u.s. postal system. and i was glad to hear that there's an investigation and that there will be some kind of action taken against this organization. i know that i'm not -- can be considered one of the lucky ones. i did not give a scammer a lot of money. and i noticed the fraudulent check immediately but i know not everyone is as lucky as i am. the phony organizations and people who steal money by pretending to help veterans must be stopped. i never believed someone would stoop so low as to steal money and veterans from a that benefit from a veteran. these scam artists rip off innocent people and as a result contributions are diverted away from organizations that are actually trying to do for the veterans. my loss may seem small, but i'm certain that these scammers have targeted thousands if not millions of more people. the total sum probably far exceeds anything i'll ever learn in my lifetime. and that is wrong. unbeof unbehalf of veterans i ask everyone to play their part. thank you again for inviting me to testify today. i hope i'm sharing my story, i can help someone from losing money to these types of scammers. i thank you. >> thank you, very much, mr. foreman, for coming forward and warning others. that's courageous of you and i'm sure you'll save others from going through what you did, even though you were able to stop it pretty quickly. district attorney richardson, welcome. >> chairman collins, ranking member casey, and members of the the committee, i'm district attorney dwayne richardson. thank you for the opportunity to testify before this committee about our office's investigation and prosecution of crimes committed. my office first became aware of these actions due to a single bad check. this check led to the unraveling of a fraud that amounted to millions of dollars stolen from the ildelderly, veterans and their families. in 2011, the man was introduced to 89-year-old grace ward. he promised the ward family she would provide a 10% return of their investment, along with securing medicare benefits which would be used to offset the cost of lichbving at the facility. the family presented them with a check in the amount of grace ward's life savings. when grace ward passed away, they contacted the company. they delivered to the ward family on september 30th, 2011, in the amount of $192,000. this was to include the initial investment. and it was at this moment when she committed the crime of check fraud. grace's son contacted my office as the business had a location in my district. and after learning about the crimes, my office became determined to do everything possible to make this family whole and attempt to recoup their funds. my office's investigation lasted almost five years. she was tracked down after being listed in the riverside county mental health board's monthly meeting agenda. she was operating a senior consulting in riverside, california. with the assistance of the u.s. marshal service, she was arrested and brought back to mississippi. it was also at that time due to media publicity i began to receive phone calls from other victims from across the state. it was also at that time i learned of an investigation being done by a u.s. postal inspector. one of those additional victims i spoke to was a world war ii air force veteran. as he began to show signs of alzheimer's, his children began to look for living assistance programs for him. the family was introduced -- staff members introduced the family to the woman in 2011. the family were made the same fraudulent promises as the wards and she was able to convince that family to hand over control of $340,000 of their funds. she guaranteed that he would receive veterans benefits as well as the same return on his investment as she promised the wards. she it that he went to live for three more years. it was not until the veteran's passing that his family learned of the fraudulent scheme. on the same day of his funeral, a postal inspector contacted his son, jamie and told them of the schemes and on the same day that they gave control of their dad's $340,000, she used their money to purchase a race car and advertising for her son. ultimately she was convicted in three counties in mississippi. wayne, height, and sunflower. she was sentenced to serve 20 years in prison for all three counties together. in addition to the mississippi convictions, she was charged later in a 19 count federal indictment in 2015. she pled gelt to one count -- guilty to one count of indictment and was sentenced to 53 months in custody to run at the same time as she served the mississippi time. she was also ordered to pay over $2 million in restitution. after speaking to the victims, words cannot express the level of devastation she imposed on their lives. all her victims were elderly citizens, some of whom were veterans. for the ward family the crimes imposed a severe financial hardship. grace ward's one desire was that she would provide for her family financial after her death. in total, she was ordered to pay over $2.5 million in restitution. to date, she has not paid one cent in restitution. she's only paid in all her crimes $50 towards a $100 mandatory federal assessment. a well-respected prosecutor has often said it's our duty to care for our widows and our elderly. what began as a complaint for a felony worthless check -- widows and our elderly. -- she is a very smart and connected a very conniving individual. she found her victims at the very institutions that should have cared for and protected them. but when she presented them her proposals, she came to the meetings with all the right credentials and the right connections to achieve the results that the victims desired. all she left each family was an empty bank account and broken promises. thank you for the opportunity to testify before this committee. i look forward to answering any questions. >> thank you very much. i'm very grateful to your compassion for the victims of these crimes in your determination to put these criminals behind bars. thank you. inspector harris? >> good morning chairman collins, ranking member casey and members of the committee. thank you for holding this hearing on veteran related scams. i'm the acting inspector in charge responsible for communications within the u.s. postal inspection service. the law enforcement crime prevention and security arm of the postal service. i started my career in government service and i joined the marine corp in 1990. i continue to serve as a marine corp reservist. veterans are twice as likely to unknowingly participate in a scam as compared to the general population. they encounter scams that have been tailored just for them. it would be buy outs, fake charities and scams that offer special access to veterans benefits but for a fee. in these cases, the scammer makes it appear they represent a government agency or veteran organization. or claim that they themselves serve in the military so they can create a sense of affinity. impostors like these know the members of the military have been trained to trust other service members and to honor the bonds of service. another finding from the survey found that veterans experience post traumatic stress at a rate more than double the general public. it can be difficult for a veteran to recognize when their otherwise good adjustment has been temporarily clouded by what an experienced fraud operator is selling. in one case, postal investigators investigated a woman, who led vets to believe she was a certified advisor. she told veterans she could boost their pensions by making it appear they had fewer assets and could qualify for greater assistance. she offered today -- to reinvest her clients' money in financial products that she would control. she was jeopardizing their benefits with clever moves like these. in reality, the fraud operator never reinvested the money on the veterans' behalf. she took the money and spent it on herself. that is until she landed in jail. in another case, a fake charity led people to believe their donations would help disabled and paralyzed veterans, especially vets who are vulnerable to suicide. mr. foreman, another witness here, received one of those solicitations. he generously donation. in 2017, aarp and the u.s. postal inspection service launched operation protect veterans. since that time we've been sharing tips on how vets can protect their personal information with the help of veterans organizations, library senior centers and 30,000 post offices across the country. we distribute these customized brochures and surveys. it serves two important purposes. it's a means for veterans to tell us what kinds of scams they're seeing, but more importantly, by filling out the survey and returning it, it's raised their awareness. we believe it's boosted their immunity to fraud. when postal inspectors are asked how can consumers stay safe financially? we remind them stop and talk. if you receive a request to send money to someone you've only known online, find a friend before you reach for your wallet. people who operate fraud schemes are successful because they're persuasive and because they've convinced us to keep it a secret. why? because scams only work when we're isolated from the people we know and trust at any age, but especially after we retire. we all need to make sure there's an extra pair of eyes on the decisions we make about our money. we need a trustworthy friend or family member. we refer to this as our foxhole buddy. i got your six is another way of saying i've got your back. when i was in a foxhole my buddy waubs was the person to be my eyed when i couldn't see. my buddy was up when i was down and when he was down, i was up. i use a lot of military jargon. i grew up in a household where it was used freely. my father served vietnam. service, honor and duty were household terms. when the postal inspection service launched operation protect veterans, i shared this brochure with my dad. dad, you have me to talk to about money matters. but not everyone has someone to confide in. maybe you can help others. pass this brochure to your friends. be a foxhole buddy for someone else. before i conclude, i want to thank the committee for its efforts to stop fraudulent phone calls. we know the scams don't just happen over the telephone line. but the ease with which a telemarketer can influence others over the phone is unparalleled unparalleled. inspectors tell consumers work with their phone service providers to stop robo and other unwanted calls. thank you for helping to keep fraudulent calls from ever ringing our phones in the first place. i appreciate the opportunity to share with you. -- the work postal inspectors due to guard americans from fraud. >> >> thank you very much, inspector harris. i know firsts -- firsthand what a great job the postal inspection service does and i appreciate your passion for this cause. so thank you. mr. wells, mr. harris talked about how important it was to have someone that an older veteran can talk to. as i understand it, that's exactly what you did. could you tell us a little bit more about vet program and the training you receive the echo. >> the vet to vet program does provide its volunteers with training to understand first and foremost how to connect with the veterans. contact them weekly, send them e-mails, follow up, see how they're doing. because they're going to be the eyes and ears in the household. how can you recognize if your veteran has a bunch of who that is another greater going bad. can you recognize if they are able to maintain and upkeep themselves and recognize the signs of cognitive decline or mental health issues. as far as scams go, they offer training on how to recognize financial scams, information on scams that have been perpetuated before. then a big focus of what that training was to allow the veterans to understand, the veteran volunteers i should say, the volunteers to understand the number of organizations and benefits that veterans and elderly qualify for in the state. so we didn't have to have anint intimate knowledge but recognize if there is a need we could refer b agency for benefits, that they were the resource. >> let's talk about the scam that you helped prevent. a lot of times the con artist uses the telephone or the internet to send an e-mail or a solicitation comes in the mail as mr. foreman mentioned for a phony charity. if i understood you correctly, in this case it was a flyer, an add that was included in the local newspaper. along with all the other flyers, is that correct? >> yes, ma'am. it was an ad that was placed, part of a newsletter for the southern maine agency on aging. but it was, you know, something that just was sent out like anybody -- most people toss these things away as junk mail. it was a small ad. it was advertising exactly what i said, free in home and respetsite care -- respite care for veterans. >> so this is an unusual method of trying to rip off our veterans, most of the ones that we hear about are the telephone calls, the robo calls, the internet scams or the direct solicitations in the mail. and so i think in many ways people would be less on guard for that kind of approach. was it difficult for you to convince this older veteran that it was a scam or had you built up a relationship by that point so that he and his wife trusted your judgment? >> i don't think it was difficult at all. it was a sad thing to see that he the veteran was excited about this. you know, finally his wife had some relief. he was not mobile or very -- it was very hard for him, he had the assistance for -- of a walker. we're talking about a 200 pound 6 foot man in his 80s. his wife almost immediately said that once i laid out why this was likely a bad idea it sounded like it would expose them to legal problems with how they were going to do the accounting and potential fraud. she definitely because of our relationship and what she had seen with me and her husband was right on board. >> inspector harris, one of the advantages of the postal service, is there are post offices everywhere in very small communities as well as larger urban areas. so tell us a little bit about how you make sure that this important flyer, which warns veterans about scams, but also cleverly has them fill out the survey so that you can get information and they get more educated. how are they distributed and how do you advertise this program? >> chairman collins, thank you for that question. there are over 30,000 post offices across the country. and the post office lobby is incredibly valuable real estate for the community. we have placed these brochures in those lobbies across the country. we did that back in 2018. and we received many responses from them and we believe that we have helped not only veterans, but the population in general by highlighting the scams and schemes that are out there. we hope it's served as a call to action to also share with others we seek to enlist everyone in the fight against fraud by raising the awareness and calling them to help protect themselves and serve others in the community. >> thank you, senator? >> thank you very much, laverne, i'll start with you. as i was listening to your story again and seeing and hearing you telling it i was reminded it would be very easy him for a lot of people to send that little extra, few extra dollars after you had your -- you knew it was more than you had promised. and because of the dollar amount, you could see how easy it would be for someone to gradually fall into the trap. so you know, absent this hearing and absent being educated by my staff and others, without that i probably would have done the same thing. when you think about the dollar amounts, we live in a countries, i just had my staff check, i think the u.s. number is about 18 million veterans. in our state, pennsylvania is only 800,000. so the number of veterans is so big and the targeting is so substantial, about 80% roughly have been targeted. you could get a lot of money accumulating with small dollar amounts. it's very easy for any one of us to fall into that, number one. number two, when i go around our state and visit senior centers, one thing i urge folks to do knowing it could happen to anyone at any age is to hang up if you have any suspicion. i don't think i would have had a suspicion in the case you cited. hopefully i would have cut it off when you did. so other than something as simple as saying if you have some suspicion, hang up, that's pretty simple advice. what other tips would you give, especially to veterans based upon the experience you had? the fact that y here provides that kind of advice for others. >> the number one action we took was caller i.d. to screen calls. >> right. >> i feel that's an important step in the right direction. i don't answer calls that i don't recognize. the other is that if you do respond to a telephone call and somebody's asking for funds is to not provide a credit card or a check number, force them to send you a pledge letter. they all will do it. we also have to recognize how we as veterans telegraph our veterans status and we do it unknowingly. 75% to 80% of the return labels i put on my letters are either american legion, vfw, uso, something to do with the military. the people receiving those would even if they weren't knowledgeable that i was a veteran, my letter basically tells them plus the credit union that i use was primarily one that's from a military organization. so there's multiple ways i'm telling them that i'm a veteran, even though i don't verbalize it on the phone. >> pretty easy to fall into that. i want to ask you one more question. in your case, the fake charity used the bank and routing number from checks you had sent them to take money out of your account. and as you referred to in your testimony, they used the information to create a, quote, remotely generated check, unquote. a term, phrase of art. this type of check, as we know is legal but only when the person gives permission for the money to be withdrawn in this way. you mentioned you were shocked when you found out about it. you weren't aware of remotely generated checks before this, nor was i until you brought it to our attention. is there anything you wish the credit union could have done prior to the funds being removed to confirm you did not give your consent? now that you're on the other side. >> it would be nice if the financial institution, they know the sequence of your checks. they normally sort by numeric -- in my case, at that time my check series was 3600 and then there's a check that's coded # 9000. you think that would set off a bell or whistle at the financial organization. i wish it was that way, but it didn't happen. >> thanks very much. madam chair. >> thank you. senator? >> amazing that we're even discussing this and that there seems to be like farm system of bilkers out there. i'm curious, ben, you know when that particular individual started that scam, is it still going on? what the life span is of the folks that get into the business of bilking? do you know in your case? >> i couldn't tell you exactly the timeline, but it sounded like the operation was fairly new by the way they were describing it. and afterward, i did a recent search just to -- because when i first had a contact with them, i had their business card and i kicked myself for getting rid of it. but i did a recent search and couldn't find anything that was under that name any longer. also going off memory for the names. faded intold have the sunset and gotten by with what they did. laverne, is the disabled her life veterans fund still out there sending solicitations? i don't think so. >> i know even in just running a company come up when it comes to checks, that does not -- inminate in any way our own company we will find checks or they get your check or your reproduction and in this with 9000 out of context 3000, it seems like the institutions themselves -- we have had discussions before of the responsibility of phone companies. seems like there are a lot of tools out there to do logically where if banks or phone ,ompanies were on their game you could figure this out before it became rampant. >> it is dependent upon whether the scammer is caught. it was not until seven years when she was convicted of all crimes. california, she had made contact with other scammers and there were two other individuals that started a business with her. had previously had problems with the law. who knows to what extent they have done it or may still be doing it. >> that had the disguise of having some legitimacy to it. where you would get a good return. medoc, you did not have to pay out. there is a lot to be said. we need to do a better job of preventing and getting the institutions that are normally the vehicle whether it is a bank or a phone company more involved. carol, the postal service is to be again an agent in this, are you finding more is it stabilizing? what is the prognosis down the road? >> the postal service has no interest in being an unwitting assistant in this scam. our partnership with our other federal state and local entities , we will continue to engage in the fight. it is still alive and well. good work ofd the the senate to stop the robo calls -- eventually, they connect to the mail. we move communications. -- tually, the conspiracy >> are your antennae more alert now? do you have methods and policies where you are trying to prevent this? or are you reacting to a feature complete? fait are you reacting to a accompli? >> we do both. we vigorously enforce the laws as they are written. it is both. we have been doing both for decades. >> thank you. >> thank you. senator jones. you, madam chair and thank you to the witnesses. i am hearing the same phrases of diverting money and false pretenses. i cannot help but think about a somewhat legal scam. that you and i have been working on and that is the elimination of the military widows tax. work so muchyour on helping us and i am still hopeful we can get that in our ndaa. like to focus initially with my da by the and mr. harris. i know firsthand these are difficult to track down and prosecute. technology is changing. when i was a prosecutor and even as a defense lawyer come it seems the bad guys were always a couple of steps ahead. what tools do you need? are there tools you could use right now to track down and prosecute? i appreciate the idea of deterring and trying to make awareness and that is wonderful we are trying to do that. oh we are not going to stop this. what can we do as a congress to give you additional tools at the state and federal level to stop these guys in their tracks? thank you for the question. we have been in consultation with the department of justice to seek an expansion of our administrative subpoena authority. more quicker. otherht fraud or the statutes we enforce. is something we are in consultation with the department of justice. we believe they are exploring the legislative approach to help us. that is something that could help us. your continued support of our federal law enforcement partners. your effort to stop the robo calls, i applaud. i believe we are making a dent. we are forcing the criminal conspiratorial's to evolve -- irators to evolve. there are a lot of businesses like this that operate. they all sound legitimate. if there werehat companies like this, that they or thatired to register there are various qualifications to administer the services that they are telling their constituents they can provide. that may be of some benefit. if those same companies were required to sign off on the applications they are receiving. preparer.a tax if they are required to sign off . put their name on the dotted line saying they are responsible for the data generated. appreciate that. i would urge you both to look up a bill that senator cotton and warner and i have assembled to update our money laundering statutes. it will address just that very issue. the a few -- the issue of beneficial ownership. it would require an index of the beneficial owners of these shell corporations out there performing these scams. i would urge the das association to get behind that. >> senator mick sally. >> thank you for having this hearing. testimony,or your especially mr. foreman. i know many like you are not willing to come forward and share your testimony. these scams are coming in many forms. as a veteran myself, there is a special place in hell for these people that are scamming our heroes. they come home, our heroes and place, theseerable people are going after them. to dod to do more everything it takes to find them and hold them accountable. this is in. infuriating. there are civilians that think they are meeting a military member on eight dating app. app. a dating luke air force base says they are receiving many calls from civilians asking if this person is really in the military. somehow tying peoples love for our veterans is being used to scam other civilians. this is going on as well as. veterans and military identity are being stolen. what else can we do to protect the identities of veterans as well? >> continued expansion of the messaging we are providing. this is something we should do. hearings like this. community outreach. identity theft is an international epidemic. we need to take a societal approach. it is also outside of government, being a foxhole buddy. having someone to check with you for you make a financial decision. >> we hear these awful stories. and then you don't trust anyone including legitimate charities and that can have a negative impact. as a veteran, i get the angst in the mail. this may not he and official scam but i get letters come i have been getting one a week lately. i brought them with me. ouradministrative notice -- review has indicated that your application has expired. this is an actual bank that i will call out right now. they are preying upon our veterans. it looks like it is from the government and you think something has expired. they are preying upon our vets to cash out or pay ridiculous closing fees on what looks like a legitimate loan. these a week.e of call thisterans that number and end up refinancing their home loan that they don't need to be doing. robbing them of their hard-earned resources. this also needs to stop. i want to work on this with the v.a. committee to tighten up these types of scams as well. that there are other activities going on that are also robbing our veterans? i get a bunch of them and i throw them out. mortgage v.a. backed benefit and since then, i've gotten plenty of them. i luckily have the wherewithal to read the fine print and understand it is not an official document. but i can only imagine if i think back to the veteran i was helping out with --and they might think why not? >> thank you very much. senator sinema. i did not see that senator blumenthal was back. >> this has been a perennial issue. i have to say i was particularly moved by senator casey and his opening remarks when he referred to his dad and the comment about us seeking to be worthy of the service of our veterans. one of the areas i think we often fail is protecting them from these kinds of scams. i was recently -- i recently sent a letter to secretary wilkie along with our colleagues calling attention to this problem. i just came from a hearing with the veterans affairs committee involving new judges. is one that is pervasive and ongoing. first, mr.sk perhaps foreman, if i may, thank you along with the others for being here today and for your service. i appreciate you sharing your personal experience with us. i imagine it is pretty frustrating to be here. >> yes. senator blumenthal: you have shared that you frequently donate to charities that actually support veterans. unfortunately, this kind of scam is one of the most prevalent. if you had to advise your fellow veterans in identifying a legitimate charity versus a fraudulent one, what would be the signs that you would point out to them? is there any way of telling? >> longevity is what iqs today. -- is what i use today. uso,sing names like wounded warriors. withof those i am familiar but it could be an outstanding charity that i may not have heard up and i will not donate. senator blumenthal: some of them are look-alikes and sound alikes. mr. harris, can the v.a. do more to protect veterans? you, senator.ank i am incredibly thankful for what the v.a. has done for me and for other veterans. we can always do more. any government entity can find opportunity to do more. i appreciate the attention and guidance and oversight they are given so they can optimize the way that they informed and look out for veterans. senator blumenthal: i know you are sympathetic to the v.a. and so on my. -- and so am i. i am wondering whether they devote enough resources to making veterans aware and reporting -- doing the kind of work that mr. wells has been doing with his colleagues and fellow veterans. should they be doing more? >> i cannot speak to all of their programs. have been a good partner of the inspection service. they have allowed us to expand messaging to their podcast. and their blog. senator blumenthal: the postal service and postal inspectors do great work in this area. they are underappreciated i think in a lot of what they do. people think of law enforcement as the fbi or dea but what i found as a u.s. attorney and attorney general is the guys that put these cases together are the postal inspectors and they can track down the perpetrators of these frauds. can takeful the v.a. advantage of those skills and make use of them better. my time has expired. i appreciate you being here. >> senator scott. thank you for putting this together. i served in the navy. i have not had a situation where someone has tried to scam me. of my dad who served and had a six grade education. he never had any money and this would be devastating. someone i do remember came to buy one of his cars and they never came back. he was such a trusting person. in 2018, the federal trade commission received 3 million fraud and identity theft complaints. which if youa bill have been a victim, rather than a going on your record, it goes on the record of the person that did it to you. . know the v.a. has a hotline what else you wait be doing -- what else should we be doing for identity theft? >> off the top of my head, i would imagine that if we had a rosem where identity theft to a higher level of prosecution. i think also protecting the veterans information and its -- when you get out of the military, they want you to register for all of these things. maybe there should be some awareness training after your service to suggest that you not keep registering for things. maybe introduce more awareness that these things are out there. >> mr. foreman? : i think it is important to recognize that a lot of us veterans, especially from my era, do not have computers or smartphones and we are not on facebook or these other new things. i have gone 21 years without a television. i have no computer in my house. i'd -- i read the paper. i listen to the radio. that is where i get my information. from magazines and newspapers and radio. all of the efforts being done on some of these more modern, fancy things are going over my head. >> they won't help you? >> no. and also the homeless vet's. they are missing out also. there are a lot of us older veterans that are not in the social media. i with think similar to what mr. foreman said, it is a matter of meeting those potential victims were you find them. usee stated, some may not this type of media. many of them have been reached through the mail. where the postal service will get involved. they need to create awareness about the potential scams because there are scammers out there trying to reach potential victims. especially with our older population. if they have money, the scammers want the money. it is a matter of reaching the potential victims where you find them in reaching out and raising awareness to them as far as what to look for. da harris: i would go what richardson has said. enhancing awareness. there is an incredible infrastructure. time is face-to-face through all of the other activities that exist. i would say the opportunity exists. >> thank you, chairman. >> senator sinema. >> thank you for protecting our nation's veterans from criminal fraud starts -- fraudsters. is an 10 arizona adult veteran and more than half of our veterans are 65 or older. deepe these men and women debt of gratitude. this is horrible. the story from arizona is jack holder. he is a world war ii veteran. he survived the attack on pearl harbor and he far in aerial combat overseas. in 2016, he was targeted in a sweepstakes scam and it robbed him of $43,000. nearly his entire life savings. he survived pearl harbor and watched his wife succumbed to alzheimer's disease but he described when he realized that he was a victim of a scam as the worst day of his life. he shares his story despite his embarrassment because he doesn't want it happening to anyone else. and that is when i made it my mission to protect arizona veterans from being victims of these crimes. this year, we have continued our work by introducing the senior security act. creating a task force to protect seniors. increasing penalties for criminals that use rubber calls to harass seniors and veterans. there is still so much work to be done. and daor harris richardson, earlier this year on this committee, i shared the story of maggie whose elderly parents in tucson were robbed of their life savings. her father is a 20 year veteran of the u.s. air force living with alzheimer's. and their family lost much of what they had saved from his military pension. in these cases, are there ways to help people recover financially? on theirget help military pension or require restitution from the criminals? >> thank you for the question. from the criminal standpoint, one of the barriers is being able to locate and try to secure those assets. , these instances criminals are spending it as they get it. , the woman continued to defraud other victims. in some cases, she used some of that money to pay other victims. if there is an avenue to allow prosecutors to tie in to resources of the defendant and be able -- they are required to make payment. but often what we find is that they's -- they play a nominal fee. that can help them navigate these difficult circumstances . >> senator gillibrand. perfect timing. >> thank you. mr. richardson, thank you for your important work to prosecute these scammers. testimony howour these scammers like to take their schemes across state lines. do you think we could be facilitating more ordination? yes, definitely. as i tell everyone i work with, there is always more we can do. instance, iicular received calls from other agencies conducting other investigations. later on down the line. when they were first contacted, they had already been doing this for a number of years through mississippi. because there was no way for me to know in northern mississippi what is happening in southern mississippi, there is no way to bring awareness to my the him's or hold her accountable. >> can we centralize some services like a central database? >> i would definitely think resources to provide awareness wouldentralized location be good to provide that source. the numbers will not stop. communication, there is no way to stop those individuals. in this instance, one person was caught in mississippi and then she moved to california. harris, you have done great work. as a veteran and marine corps howrvist yourself, you know to communicate effectively about this complicated issue. could you use some help? ftc be doing more to disseminate information about fraud that targets older americans? >> i will always welcome help. our organization seeks to partner actively. and we will continue to do so. we believe in sharing information and the conflict in cases. to bring the full there of federal law-enforcement to get the best impact and find all of the facts. what else can the government do? what role should the federal government play? >> i'm aware that the department of veteran affairs maintains a list of legitimate organizations. i do not know how they maintain that list. help.ome support and to shareyou for coming your story about how to identify these scams. does the federal government need to step up and provide more resources to organizations? >> absolutely. we have just gotten a 503 c status. ands run by one full-time one part-time staffer and they organized 60 volunteers. for is a drop in the bucket how many veterans that are just in the state of maine. i think anyone that has the funding and the ability and the resources could make it more robust. >> i was very moved by mr. performance story. mr. richardson -- mr. foreman story. what options are there for justice? every instance, they need to report it to law enforcement but the russian of whether they get their money that, it it is a sad conversation to have but with each case i have worked with, they knew they were not going to get the money back. and the harsh reality is i could not find the words to say -- you won't. but if they came find some sense of justice. all that many wanted was just to receive some of their families benefits back. thank you, senator rosen. >> thank you for bringing such topple hearings here. i appreciate the work and i am so sorry you were a victim. represent nevada. we are home to over 220,000 veterans and nearly 20,000 servicemembers. according to the bodice attorney general's office, the most common scams is fraudulent mortgage relief forms. and identity theft. it is such a problem that nobody is one of the top three states in the nation per capita of reported identity theft. veterans in my state that experience scams or fraud can turn to our attorney general's office for military assistance. it is doing excellent work to protect our veterans. in my state, we also have the nevada senior medicare control program. has a presence at community events. we just had our third annual veterans extravaganza and these happen all over the country and are filled with all kinds of information for veterans. the hard-working volunteers tried to educate and empower older veterans about medicare, medicaid, and fraud and best practices. would you talk about the training that your volunteers at the that to that vet in maine get? of what we were given training on is how to identify and protect personal information. -- don'tal rules of give out your social security number. we were also given awareness of thategitimate programs exist and can provide programs. that is an important part. if someone knows there is an organization that can fill a need and can direct you toward curb ahat will curve -- lot of the looking for other organizations. >> i think your organization does a great job. i hope we can package your training and export that to communities across the country. do -- senior centers, churches, synagogues -- when they had these events, how do they know -- how can we help them as organizers? >> i would say having a centralized database. i know there is work done at the v.a.currently, at our main v.a., we have a social worker that up dates her list of active organizations. factan say as a matter of that this veteran organization or charitable organization does good work. and that is a single office. >> i wonder if we need something like the better business bureau. that get theces stamp of approval. waye there is a central that we could check across the country. >> thank you. i think you bring up a very good point. fair for to to a veterans services and see a booth there, you are going to assume that it is legitimate. and with all of the sound alike charities and needs out there and the generosity that people , it iswards veterans very easy to see how these scams succeed. want to ask you my final question of the hearing. first of all, you deserve great praise and credit for putting behindorious con artist bars. that was a great win. i know you had to deal with california as well and it was a complex case and i'm grateful to you and your office manager for not giving up and for the critical role that you played in tracking her down and bringing her to justice. it is discouraging to know that none of the victims have been repaid any significant restitution and many of them entire lifeamily's savings because of this totally unscrupulous individual. i am also concerned to learn womant could be that this will be released as early as june of next year having served years fraction of the 20 she was sentenced -- both with the state and federal charges against her which run concurrently. and that makes me wonder whether we need to look at the penalties for this kind of fraud. do you have any advice for us? you, chairmanank collins. in this case, if you look at it she was sentenced to 20 years to serve on three different counties in mississippi. sure when she was convicted that our sentence was the last one because we noticed the magnitude of the crimes she committed against our elderly and our veterans. the harsh reality is that in mississippi, for a nonviolent offense, you are only required to serve 25% of your time. whatur victims, that is they are the most angry about. i spoke to the families and they cannot imagine she is getting parole after what she has done and not paid us a cent. ,n the case in wayne county there was a baptist minister who had practiced for 25 years. in working on our case, we noticed on facebook -- we found communications about this family and their facebook page was brother bobby wright. case, she also took his and his brother-in-law's entire life savings. and that is the only case where she has paid restitution. he iss or older -- currently in a nursing home suffering from alzheimer's. what can be on and what should be done is that in mississippi and in the best what i would recommend and support is at if there is some sort of enhancement for crimes dealing with elderly dumbs or veterans. maybe there is a mandatory sentencing when you are looking at the financial burden imposed on those victims. maybe there is a graduated scale. over $2.5stance, million was ordered in restitution and i can assure you there are still victims out there. if we put out a public service notice, we will find other dumbs. if there was some ink to ensure that she is holding accountable or scammers like her are held accountable. >> she is clearly a criminal without a conscience at all. in some cases she seems to be running a pyramid scheme. and what is so tragic about this ,s when the victims are elderly there is no way for them to recoup that money. they need the money at a very vulnerable time in their lives such as the gentleman that you mentioned with alzheimer's in a nursing home. he has long-term care costs. wrong that there is not some sort of consideration or enhanced penalty when the victims are not receiving restitution. they are older americans and they have served their country. it seems there should be some sort of additional penalty that the judge would have the discretion to impose. yes. >> and what is most disheartening in this case is the suspect -- and as i looked bureau oftus in the prisons come her release date has been moved up a month. they 15th, 2020. weise went just as much if not more time tracking her down and having her brought back to mississippi and back to justice as she would have served in custody. that is not fair to our the us. with you andagree that is a good summary of what is wrong. thank you. senator kerry? put something on the record as we conclude. we made reference to the letter that we are sending to the v.a. addressed to the honorable robert wilkie, secretary of the veterans administration. recordto put it on the because it is not something we are doing as a routine matter. here is the progression of facts and information. aarp, i think i said it erroneously before, that it was the gao. being veterans report victims of a scam. number two, gao in this report in october of this year made a number of findings. but here's the basis of the --here is the crux of the findings. the gao says the va receives reports of potential fraud and exploitation, but and here's the problem, the agency does not centrally collect or analyze the information to, number one, assess the prevalence of the scams, number two, inform outreach efforts, or number three, help law enforcement pursue scammers. so the gao sends the findings to the va. the va's response in part was recommending that an alternative approach be pursued that would be a referral process to the federal trade commission. the reason why virtually everybody, every member of the committee signed our letter to the va is because we all concluded, not good enough, va. we don't just, you know, criticize them on a regular basis, but when the va responds to a gao report like that, and suggests some other agency should be taking responsibility or the full measure of responsibility for it, we had to send this letter. just for the record, here's what we are asking the v.a. in this letter, not tough questions but important ones. basically five questions. i will summarize them quickly. number one, has the va examined the extent to which america's veterans have been victimized by this type of scam? number two, has the v.a. -- or how has the va working with federal and state agencies and stakeholder groups to protect veterans? number three, what has the va done to educate veterans? very important that they do that. number four, how will the va's proposed response in response to gao's recommendation proer vied -- recommendation provide the agency with the ability to assess the prevalence of scams targeting veterans and allow for outreach and education? i think it's a very reasonable question. number five and finally what plans does the va have to increase these efforts? what further legislative or regulatory authority does the va need to do so? i think very reasonable questions. if the v.a. comes back to us and says, you the congress needs to give us more authority, we should work on that. if they say you, the congress needs to give us more appropriations, we'll work on that. but the response to say, this is a job for the federal trade commission or some other agency just isn't good enough. so that's why they're getting a letter. and we don't always agree on everything around here, but we agree on this. madam chair, thanks for the time for that. >> thank you very much. and you know that i totally agree with you that the v.a. could do more in this area. just because they're a central point of contact for so many veterans. and i know i said i'd asked my last question, but mr. harris, just a very quick one for you. this excellent brochure that the postal service inspection service has collaborated with the aarp on, is this also in addition to being in post office lobbies, is it also at v.a. clinics, and hospitals and sea box community veterans centers? >> thank you for that question, chairman collins. we've been in consultation with the department of veterans affairs seeking to get distribution through their network. to date we haven't. >> well, that is something i can assure you we will follow up on that, because a lot of veterans have contact with the v.a. and with community based clinics. and this would be a great publication for them to pick up. so thank you for your good work. i want to thank all of our witnesses for their contributions to our hearing today. as we have heard, americans, veterans are now confronting a new enemy and that is relentless criminals. i am not going to call them scammers or con artists. let's call them what they are, they are criminals who are seeking to steal the life savings from our veterans, from those who have done their part and served our country. and to profit from their personal information as well. sometimes these criminals seek to perpetuate the same scams that we've examined many times, but even more insidious, oftentimes these criminals are targeting our veterans with the kinds of schemes that we've heard described today. and we've learned that there are many ways to fight these schemes that are targeting our veterans. operation protect veterans seeks to prevent scams through education. vet to vet in maine uses camaraderie between veterans as a way to fight back. veterans like mr. foreman who are also on the lookout for their fellow veterans and inspector harris as well, also play an important role. and of course there's no substitute for the kind of persistence that d.a. richardson and his staff demonstrated in tracking down and prosecuting these criminals. like senator casey, i want the v.a. to step up its game as well and assist us in protecting our veterans. i am very appreciative of your all being here today. committee members will have until friday, november 15, to submit questions for the record. and i will turn to senator casey for any final comments. >> chairman collins, thank you for holding this very, very important hearing today. in my second line of my closing remarks, i crossed out scammers and con artists and put criminals. so i'm going to read it as she suggested. the criminals, because that's the right word, the criminals who steal from our veterans are the worst kind. i said in an earlier interview, the scum of the earth. i don't know what more i can say. they're just so many ways to describe how bad they are. after a commitment to serve our country and defend our freedom, veterans should not have to fear answering the phone or being confronted by perpetrators of fraud. no one should, veteran or not. as i said to laverne earlier, i'm not a veteran, but i would have sent the 25 and the 35 or the 20, then the 25 and the 35. i think a lot of people would. this committee has consistently worked to combat frauds and scams and will continue to do so. but i am pleased that we held this hearing today ahead of the veterans day holiday coming up next week. the criminals perpetrating these will undoubtedly double down in the coming days, which means those of us trying to prevent them from being successful must also double down. and i hope the v.a. will do that as well. so i want to thank the chairman again for her willingness to have this hearing and thank you to each and every one of our witnesses for being here today. and of course thank you to our veterans for what they have contributed to our country, and we'll say happy veterans' day early. thank you very much. >> as the daughter of a world war ii veteran who was wounded twice in the battle of the bulge, this is an issue that matters greatly to me as well. i'm sure we'll continue our efforts to combat it as i know our witnesses will. so thank you all for being here. this hearing is now adjourned. >> watch this c-span networks live this week as the house intelligence committee holds the first public impeachment hearings. the committee led by adam schiff will hear from three state department officials starting wednesday at 10:00 eastern on c-span3. william taylor and deputy assistant secretary of state george kent will testify. c-span2, at 11:00 on former u.s. ambassador to ukraine will appear before the committee. and the head of the hearings will read testimony from the deposition. the transcripts at c-span.org/impeachments. coming up this morning on washington journal, concerned veterans for america senior advisor

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