Cable or satellite provider. Authors and authors and journalists who covered the watergate scandal in the 1970s met recently to talk about the era and how it compares to todays Political Climate regarding the russia investigation, the news media and the publics view of government. Hosted by slate media, this is one hour and a half. [applause] leon hey, everybody. [applause] leon thank you for being here. Can everybody hear me . Is my mic awake . Great. We are here about a week and a half after the show ended, season one ended, and i think none of us at slate assumed or could have guessed we would be talking about season one and planning season two. Season two of slow burn so thank you to all of you. [applause] for being here, but o listening to the show. Leon for being here, but also listening to the show. It is really a dream to be here in the Watergate Hotel with all of you. We have got a great show tonight, our first live show. We have a fantastic lineup of guests who i now want to introduce without clearing my throat anymore. Elizabeth drew, to my left. She covered the watergate scandal as it was unfolding. In the book that washington journal in the book washington journal. To my right, did cap it dick cavett. Betweend a show on abc 1968 and 19 74. In the months following watergate, he interviewed a number of key figures in the scandal. Later he broadcasted an entire episode from the watergate room. True. Glasser. E susan [applause] she is an Affairs Columnist for politico. Previously she was the editor of politico and political magazine. All the way on the right, evan thomas. [applause] evan has been an editor at newsweek and time for many years, and he is the author of a book on nixon. Did i leave anybody out . The podcast. I mention the podcast. Did you . I cant mention it too much. I did not cover watergate. [laughter] thats true. There are people like me who were not alive during watergate. You were just barely alive. Very small. [laughter] i want to know from elizabeth how does it feel to be in the watergate after all of these years . Did you do reporting in here . For a while, i lived in the watergate. No kidding. Without going into it, i encountered a difficulty and a coverup. What do you mean . Well, i can go into it. [laughter] it is for my next book. It felt weird. To what . I dont want to rain on the , all of the away focus only watergate breakin leaves out the more important that,in, the one before the breakin of the office of the psychiatrist, the man who papers. The vietnam war so this was really more serious. It was a violation of the fourth amendment, the right to privacy, your secure in your home and belongings. They went right in. What saved the republic i think is it was really stupid. Hereeason they were caught , it was their fourth attempt to get into the Democratic National committee offices. The first attempt, they decided to host a banquet on the ground they would then go upstairs to the dnc offices and they got locked in a closet somehow. [laughter] the next time they got to the dnc offices, but they could not break the lock. Its a process. It is an unfolding process. [laughter] mr. Martinez most of the burglars were alumni of the bay of pigs failed invasion of cuba, so they were really angry with kennedy and democrats and so on. Nixon told them they were helping him fight communism and they bought that. Got the right instruments for breaking the law and they went in and messed it up. On the wrongtap phone and took blurry pictures. It was sad, one of the two leaders, gordon liddy, went to the chairman of the committee to reelect the president. Reep. They called themselves that . They did not get the joke. , god saveey general us, a law partner of nixons was and said to them, this is junk. I dont think he said junk. I cant prove it but i dont think he did. And go back in. So then went back in and that is when they were cut. They were in there on memorial day that weekend. Similarly when they were invading the office of dr. Lewis fielding. That was the psychiatrist. Imagine that appeared imagine that. Imagine of 70 got into your regular doctors office, but getting into your psychiatrist we should all see one. [laughter] there were no files, they messed up everything they did and thats kind of why we are still here today. [laughter] up,m glad you brought that because one of my regrets about the show is that i never mentioned the breakin at the psychiatrists office. In many ways it was more serious. There were more scary more scared about people finding out about. It was in one of the articles of impeachment, but not the same one as watergate. The term watergate stuck. Actually, there are a lot of people appear and i will shut up, but when mixing was in florida and the breakin was caught, how dumb do you have to be to put a piece of tape in the door and the cop comes along and removes it and they put it back on . When they met, three days after the breakin, thats when the coverup was hatched. What nixon said, what he was really worried about, he said these plumbers, they did that other stuff, they know about that other thing. Thats what he was afraid was going to be found out. And so that began the coverup to shut them up. I had no idea who lived here. You know who else lifted her . Martha mitchell. I knew that. I wanted to include that, but i thought it would be confusing, because how do you explain that . Im glad that elizabeth because when it toe out, nixon was saying them, what is this crp thing . The committee to reelect the creeps the president. [laughter] one of the things of the things i thought about when i was planning tonights event, one of those itches i didnt get to scratch on the show, a major one is that i dont still get Richard Nixon very well. He wasnt really on the show, he was sort of the dark center of it. What itshow was about was like to live through it, but i never really asked or answered what it was like for nixon to live through it. , if you could tell us a little bit about what kind of experience it was for him, starting with the first couple of weeks when the cloud was starting to gather. Nixon had obviously many flaws. One was that he hated confrontation. He liked to pose as being a blistering tough guy that would swear a lot, that he was actually a very shy person. One of his feelings was that he, from the very beginning, did not confront his own staff. A guy directly running it, nixon does not talk to him, have a real conversation with him for nine months. Nixon was just unwilling to confront his own people. Junee confronted had in 1972 said, what is going on he did not know about the breakin. It happened on his watch, he had a lot of responsibility for it but he did not know about it. Is that the fact . 99. 9 fact. Overwhelming that he did not know about it. Not to excuse him, he created the conditions by which it happened, but he couldve cut this off. Of mcgovern in the polls by 34 points. There was no way he was going to lose. He could have fired everybody in his cabinet and still won, and he should have. [laughter] that was one turning point that he blew partly out of his own shyness. Because he could not face it . He couldnt face it and did not want to face it. Nixon was a devious guy, he also thought he could get away with it. He believed in executive privilege and he thought, and people scoff at this, but he is hardly the first president to use dirty tricks. , nixonsly happened timing was bad. Thats what it was. [laughter] like, the 20th century. [laughter] thats what i mean by that. Why did he have these incompetent people doing this . Why were those guys doing it . The reason they were doing it is because the fbi had taken themselves out of the business of doing this. , that the ahead been illegally wiretapping and stealing and spying for earlier president s, including frank and roosevelt, harry truman, lbj. Hoover by 1970 was a savvy politician and realized the winds are changing. Ren courtar in war is beginning to enforce the fourth amendment, cutting down on wiretapping, and hoover knows this. He is getting the fbi out of the business of doing lack back jobs jobs. Doing block bag so nixon has to go inhouse. He didnt have to. [laughter] but if he is going to do it, he has to hire liddy to do it because the fbi will not do it for him. His minions hire these incompetents. Hearing you say that he was so allergic to confrontation, one thinks of the reports of how our current president never can fire someone directly to their face despite his catchphrase. [laughter] i think a lot of people who had funo this show picking out parallels. There are subplots and personality traits i think nixon and trump seem to share. But when i read your book, and i read it later in the process of recording the show, he felt totally different to me than the way i imagine donald trump. I wonder if you could talk to me about how they are different and similar. For starters, nixon read. [laughter] [applause] a lot. Ive been through his personal library, he was an unbelievable because he did not like talking to people. He read a lot. Most president s dont read anything, certainly trump. But most president s are busy. , and read a lot and deeply he read deeply into political philosophy, everything churchill ever wrote. He pretended to hate intellectuals but he actually was one himself. He would say, those harvard people, but then he would hire them to work for him. He was confusing that way. He postured as an antiintellectual but he actually was quite intellectual. So that is one major difference. A big difference. Nixon was deeply strategic. Moment, by thee tweet, by impulse. Mix and thought deeply about the shape of the world, coalition of forces, china, russian. Always thinking strategically, rightly or wrongly. That is another big difference. Is they arere alike both arguably crazy. [laughter] a lot of people have opined about this, that trump has a narcissistic disorder if you believe kathy psychiatric immunity. Nexen, i dont know what you would call it, but he was paranoid. He did not like this about himself and he tried to control it but he could not control it. You can hear it on the tapes, we spent hours listening to these tapes, and he can sound quite rational, talking about world events. You can make fun of his accent but he is a deep thinker. Then he will go on these crazy tears, antisemitic, profane tears, and you wonder what the hell is he doing . Then he will swing back into being coherent and interesting again. He could not control his emotions. Tweet reminded me of a very much the same. Library. Rumps [laughter] to. Oud have [applause] you can use that. [laughter] susan, how can you explain, given the differences that were just enumerated, to my mind quite striking similarities in how the white houses seem to be run, the sort of chaos that determines decisionmaking. Again, the alignment of the various subplots uncanny. Apart intoan so far apart do two men so far creates a many so many echoes . If i knew the answer to that, i should just go home. Anybody isw if checking twitter, but please let us know if there is a white house shakeup happening while we are sitting here. Do you know who was on trumps public schedule today for a meeting . Henry kissinger. To me, that was sort of a perfect setup for this conversation tonight. Washington is something that both nixon and donald trump loved to bash. Nixon as you said, loved to set himself up in opposition to the georgetown set, he hated the elitists in washington, they just did not get him, donald trump ran against the swamp, but in many ways you are saying one year into trumps experiment on all of us [laughter] that washington, it is like a casino. Historically the house always finds a way to win. Henry kissinger will adapt to any power in the white house. Activetill getting meetings at the age of 93 or whatever it is. They are not the same, and facing to be engaged in this incredible moment of history echoing or rhyming or maybe just laughing at us. I will admit, one of the first things i did after january 20, 2017 was i picked up a copy of elizabeths book that was sitting on our shelves. Reading that in parallel to the first remember the 24 day tenure of Michael Flynn . Shortest tenure. Longer than the 11 day tenure of anthony scaramucci, it is often referred to as the scaramucci era. [laughter] this is the sort of comic opera version of it. Donald trump is the sort of comic opera version. He is not like nick sent, he doesnt seem to be an extreme introvert, for example, which clearly nixon was. That ame that tells us certain part of it is about power and abuse of power. When you say the white houses are similar, that might be because you are looking at peoples responses to the institution and to what happens when you are in the court of rhose are court of the cza or the president and something is wrong in the middle of it. I have the greatest of their white houses are similar. Inre was a strict discipline nixons white house. It wasnt the zoo this one has been. It didnt have all these to participate evan is right, nixon was deeply shy as a man and deeply shy as a little boy. He grew up lying in the grass and reading. Dork did not exist then, but he was one. He ran for and one student offices all the time. He was student body president. He didnt have any friends. He was a charmer, but he worked so hard at it. He wanted it so badly. This kept happening. Thesek a liking to positions he was unfit for. I would argue he was unfit for politics. He did not like people and people do not like him. It did not work. Although the suspicion. The other thing is, yes he was shy, but if he had to fire his closest aides, he did it. He cried when he did it. Oh he cried. [laughter] he had a habit of calling aides at 1 00 in the morning or 3 00 the morning and ask how it went. He said, how do you think my speech went . The speech in which he fired him. [laughter] i believe he said, i can do this for you anymore. [laughter] i have been fired. I assume im not the only one sitting here who met the great man. I was just about to turn to you about this. Did you ever meet him . I interviewed him. We were not close. [laughter] were you close . You were not enchanted . I met him way back when i was at theersona non grata white house, that did not last very long. I eventually made the enemies list. This was a formal event, nickel wilson was brought over because and had seen him in london, and so you were invited to an evening of shakespeare at a room 1 6 the size of the spirit the size of this. So i come up great indicted the secondtor, people at the receiving line, they usually give them something to say if they dont know the person. But he recognized me clearly and said, who is doing your show tonight . I said, joe namath. Yes. How are his knees . [laughter] wasnt there another interaction you had with him . That is only one. That night we waited and saul theshakespeare, and saw shakespeare, and about 10 minutes after it was over, for some reason the room filled with a smoke smell. , likee alarming kind somebody was burning the newspaper something. There was no source of it, the smell went away. Timon,aisle came kenneth the Great British critic, and i ken i knew him. [laughter] what do you think that smell was . Agnewaid, they let spiro into the library. [laughter] i love it. [laughter] that sounds like he was quite polite to you. The tapes,ing to that was not always his attitude toward you. From nixon . Yeah. The damnedest thing happened in montauk one day, i went to a Seafood Restaurant and it was one hour early and nobody was at the tables. There was this dark figure, it looked like an old seabird peering out to sea. It was mr. Nixon and his lovely daughter julie. To amuse the waiter i was not drunk. [laughter] i went up behind him and said, for dessert we have the yorba linda cream pie and the Whittier College souffle. I got so he could see me then. He said, oh yes. I thought that was you. [laughter] he always knew who was behind him. [laughter] , but weat did dumbo do suddenly had nothing to say to each other. We stood there. The gulls fell silent. [laughter] said, oh, the last time i saw you was at that wonderful night of shakespeare at the white house, and you might remember that the room started filling with i should not be telling him the story. But anyway, i finished the story somehow. Your said, i hope nightclub act was funnier than that. [laughter] ive remembered something i had to do at home. [laughter] to evansto go back point about nixon not knowing about the watergate breakin. We dont know. But evan made the key point, he created the conditions for it. How did this stuff happen . My point is, it doesnt matter. It did not matter whether nixon knew about the breakin ahead of time. As evan said, he created the conditions. He would say things like he always wanted to get the goods on somebody. We havent said this, i think its terribly important. Nixons downfall stemmed a lot from the fact that he could not distinguish between opponents and enemies. Anyone who ran against him was an enemy. Things, theyrst around,ed kennedy taking pictures of him with various women because next and worried that kennedy would run against him in 1972. The inability to distinguish not just in his president ial career, he would say i want to get the goods on lawrence obrien, a kennedy man. The chairman of the Democratic National committee. Goods onanted the larry obrien, there are various theories about that, having to do with Howard Hughes and blah b lah. Thats my favorite one. But. Where was i . [laughter] my point was, because he couldnt make the distinction he kept getting into trouble. Why were they so obsessed with ellsberg . The pentagon papers were really about the vietnam war under johnson, but he questioned the foundation of the vietnam war. It was kissinger who was very worked up about this and ellsberg was an enemy and we have to get him. Of that the atmosphere white house, who are we going to get . Thats what led him down this trail. One of the articles of impeachment that i think is fascinatingly and pointed , i knowingly important you have a question about that. There were three articles of impeachment that the House Judiciary Committee approved. One of them held at the president accountable for the acts of his aides. It had to be a pattern or practice of a certain kind of activity, just as in the obstruction of justice, it wont be one thing or another, it will be 10 things if that comes up, that is what is building, and what was building under nixon. The first article was obstruction of justice. But the second was the use of Government Agencies for his own political purposes to get his and theigned enemies, other was that he was responsible, he was accountable for that. If you fast forward to now, we dont know if there was collusion, collusion means conspiracy if it is an impeachable offense. It doesnt matter what really what trump knew at a certain point or if nixon knew ahead of time they were going into the watergate, he created the atmosphere and encourage t