To talk about this incredibly important issue. We have a great panel for you. We have a cspan audience, and of course, a live webcast. Tweak,who would like to u. S. Immigration. We hope to have a good discussion here and online. Way back when when i was a graduate student at the university of california berkeley, where secretary napolitano runs these days, we learned about wedge issues wedge issues were those things that really divided the electorate, that get everyone excited, that everyone had opinions about. Well, immigration has become a wedge issue. Wedge issues come and go, depending upon the year, and clearly, since 2015, one President Trump started to run for office, immigration has been at the forefront in terms of one of the wedge issues. It divides not just the mccracken republicans. Republicans. In fact, there is an nbc wall street journal poll out today that has some fascinating divides within the Republican Party between Trump Supporters and people that call themselves more or less traditional republicans. So, this is a big issue. This is an issue that everyone has an opinion about, as opposed to many of the other issues we talk about here at brookings tele communications, and things like that. Really, normal people dont really have strong opinions about those issues. This is one where people who have strong opinions, and therefore it is of interest to everyone. The issue also runs the gamut of from what i call a heart issue to a head issue. People have strong opinions about what this means for our country what kind of country we ought to have, and we get emotional about it, but it also goes to more very practical issues. My colleague you will be moderating this panel and i, we just, a couple of months ago took a look at the practical side. Is it possible to do what the president wants to do and, in theory, was elected to do, and we came up with some pretty interesting answers, which i think will be brought out in the course of the discussion. And, finally, one of the things about a political issue that itomes so hot is that often is not exactly factbased. Remember, i think it was senator moynahan the late senator moynahan said everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but not everyone is entitled to their own facts. In thiS Immigration debate we have been treated to a series of statements, some from the president or from his team, which simply dont have anything to do with reality. We will talk about that, i am sure, too. So, thank you very much for joining us today. We will have our panel open up, get some statements, have some discussion, and that we will open it up to you in the audience, and we will also open it up to people who are online. Ok . So, again, thank you very much, and what our panel please come up. [applause] john all right, good morning, everyone. Im a senior fellow in governance studies and the Deputy Director for effective public management. It is my honor to moderate this panel and to introduce all of you to our panelists to discuss what is a critically important issue, as elaine mentioned, broadly, but also in the current political environment. Before i begin, i would like to thank the Carnegie Corporation for their support for research and for the event today. I would like to welcome our viewers who are attended by live webcast through the brookings website and those on cspan watching this live. Any of you who want to engage us on social media, you can use u. S. Immigration to get into the conversation. Now on to our panelists. Janetately to my left, napolitano is currently the president of the university of california system, a post she has held since 2013. Prior to becoming president of u. C. , she served as the third secretary of Homeland Security during the first time of president obama and a little bit into his second term. Priors you that she served as attorney general of arizona and the governor of arizona. ,o the left, carlos gemara previously at the national raza. L of la previously he served in the Obama Administration from 2014 to 2017, where he focused on developing an intimate Team Immigration policy for the administration. Least, the senior fellow and director of the u. S. Immigration policy program at the migration policy institute. From 1993 to 2000 she served as the commissioner of Immigration National nationalization service. She has served under five president s. I would have to think our panelists for joining us and what will be, hopefully, and engaging conversation. I will spark start with my first question to president napolitano. Recently you joined a lawsuit over the president s decision to rescind daca as president of the university of california. The president s decision to repeal this in a sixmonth window with the Hope Congress will step in and codify daca into law has made for a lot of controversy throughout the United States and in a lot of policy circles. You oversee a system with 4000 students who are undocumented, many of whom will have applied for daca protection. Can you talk a little bit about what this policy means broadly, and what it means for your University System and for your students . Sec. Napolitano well, i certainly can. Im very familiar with daca. When i was the secretary of Homeland Security, and we did it out of a recognition that there was there were a whole host of individuals who had been brought here as children, had been raised in the country, and from any kind of immigration shouldment perspective, be able to stay in the country without fear of deportation. So, deferred action for childhood arrivals was the program that we initiated, and it is an exercise of respiratory of discretion. Each applicant is reviewed individually. They have to have a clean criminal record, and meet a whole host of other requirements to qualify. At the university of california, we estimate that we have around 4000 undocumented students, and the vast majority of them are in daca. Indeed, about one quarter of the hundred thousand Daca Recipients 800,000 Daca Recipients in the country are in california, and these young people are they are an important part of our University Community. They are, by and large, firstgeneration college students. They are and have done everything required of them academically to get into the university of california, which is not the easiest thing in the world to do. Have the brains, the. Nergy, the initiative and they are exactly the kind of people we should want to stay in our country and contribute. To the president decision was wrong on a number of grounds, and one of the reasons the university sued was to seek and the judicial relief from the system. It is wrong as a matter of law. It is wrong as a matter of Immigration Enforcement policy. And it is inconsistent with our values as a country. Acts, the nose. One can always hope. We hear that there may have been a deal negotiated between the president and senator schumer, and representative policy over chinese food and chocolate cake at the white house. But we do need legislation that would be brought to the floor and passed that the president will sign, and to get that all done in six months while we are going to advocate for it and believe strongly that congress can and should act, we also think that as a matter of law the court should step in and protect these hundred thousand young people. John thank you for those comments. Carlos, president napolitano talked about the University Community at u. C. , and the Important RoleDaca Recipients play in that community. Can you talk more broadly about immigrant canaries nationwide, what daca has meant for those communities, and carlos john, thank you for the question and the opportunity to be here. It is honor to be here with my copanelists. Daca, in many ways, i think back to when i began my legal career. I was a line attorney during a lot of these cases. During about 100 and the cases, difficulty in the conversations that must have happened around many kitchen tables across the country, before coming to me for consultations about what obtaining daca might mean for a whatand what more what doors it might open. , and doriss words, is so much more muscular, and makes everyone nervous, and reluctant to do things. Reluctant to report whenever they are victims of crime. It is one of the reasons why local Law Enforcement agents, agencies are so opposed to some of the and thebeing taken words being used on Immigration Enforcement. These are all things that must be taken into account. Post i would add to that that an important piece of the puzzle is where immigration courts come in. That is also part of this process, to seek relief, if it is available to them. , that adds a new dynamic in terms of how these as a right tot it is dont have a work on this record, this is to cspan is in virginia so long as long as you audio of your connected cities du jour goingle you often were quoted as saying show me a 50 foot wall and i was are you a 51 foot ladder. That said, i would not get on a 51 foot ladder. Can you talk to the challenges and what types of policies are more effective if not more attainable if the heated rhetoric died down into and peoplele enter this conversation in a way more levelheaded way . Yes. You know, i think the notion of building a wall across the southwest border, i mean, i just, first of all, just doing from a geography standpoint, youre talking about going to riverbeds, mountains. Theres a great deal of private Property Ownership along the border. When there was money set aside and a secure fencing act a decade and a half ago, a number of the Property Owners whose property would beused for that be used for that sued. Those cases, many of them are still in litigation so youll have those issues. You have inian reservations that straddle the border in arizona, the community lives on both sides of the border. Theyve already said theyre not going to have a wall. So, just the pure doing of it, not to mention the actual cost. , which, you know, i think the numbers ive seen are low numbers. And i think youre probably talking in excess of 20 billion to build anything like a wall. And, so, you have to question, what does a wall do . Well, the notion that a wall, there is going to be some kind of impermeable structure along the border. Again, anybody who has been at the border and knows the border knows that that just wont fly and what, you know, real border enforcement means is a strategy that includes manpower, that includes technology, that includes, as i said before, air coverage. It also includes working with our neighbors to the south to try to prevent traffic before it actually gets to the physical border. And, you know, i think some of the Real Progress that we made was with the government of mexico and their own efforts and protecting their southern border. So, waiting until the traffic hits a myth logical structure does not suffice as an immigration policy. Anything you would like to add . Well, maybe i should use this opportunity to throw out my favorite number. You said the wall is probably in the 20 billion range. Thats what Homeland Security has been estimating, 21 billion. We now spend 19 billion on Immigration Enforcement overall in this country. That represents 25 more than all federal criminal Law Enforcement, which means the fbi, the dea, the atf, the secret service, the marshals service. On Immigration Enforcement were spending 25 more than those agencies combined, and now were talking about a 20 billion wall that is even more expensive than that expenditure . And in the face of the changes and flows and the kinds of points that you properly raised that i completely agree with about what brings about first effective Law Enforcement. I will raise my hand as a proponent of barriers along the border. In certain places under certain circumstances. About a third of the border already has it. You can call it whatever you want. A third, about 2000 miles, has a barrier of one sort or another. It is assistance to the border patrol. It requires repair. It is the most expensive piece of infrastructure that is there. It has to becombined with Agent Technology and oversight. It is simply a method of helping to channel the flow and deal with certain types ofterrain. Its not a one size the problem fits all and solve the problem solution. So we have about 12 or 13 minutes before i open this up to audience questions. So, now i want to get away from being accountants and actuaries and get to more of the fun stuff and talk about the politics of this issue. So, carlos, i want to start with you. Unidos is one of the most active highprofile advocacy organizations in the United States working on a whole range of issues affecting immigrant communities. Im hoping you can talk a little about how unidos has responded to the new political environment and in many ways an unexpected political environment since november 8 and a little bit about what has happened with unidos. A lot of times when there is a disastrous policy situation on your radar it can bring groups , together in ways that other situations may not. Can you talk about the Advocacy Group and Interest Group environment . Yes, thank you. Suffice to say the election of President Trump, perhaps unexpectedly by some, kind of threw many of us in the advocacy space, of course, i wasnt in the advocacy space. But now in theadvocacy space for a loop. I think the profile or the positioning of a lot of groups today has had to be one of a more Rapid Response posture, whereas perhaps many were gearing up for a different dynamic had Different Administration been in place. And, so, what that means is its relentless to your point what you were alluding to, john. Tracking the latest hot button issue of the day, and it coming together frankly of the group to deal with those in the most appropriate manner. Well tell you it feels like it is a constant onslaught these days starting from muslim ban to ramped up interior actions. Daca now. It feels like we are always on the defensive. But i say that, and i say that with some pride in the reaction that the Advocacy Community has, in the way that they have come together to respond. One of the ways that we are seeing that play out is, to the with response to the daca decision now. There are very multifaceted approaches to that. As we think about the window that we have, and i sincerely believe we have a window right now to get something done, youll see a lot of groups Carry Forward the momentum. Until we get to a place where we talk about debt ceiling and so forth where we might have opportunities to discuss this issue more fully as a comprehensive package perhaps. So ill say that. That momentum and that work continues. Well continue to be in this fight. We know we have a lot at stake. As i mentioned earlier, its not 800,000 individuals that are Daca Recipients. Its their families. And also the individuals not to be forgotten in this space that do not have daca but otherwise are for all intents around are lawabiding individuals trying to go about their daytoday lives as well. Over the past several election cycles, weve seen your home state of arizona trend toward purple. In 2004, president bush won arizona. In 2012, president obama lost arizona by nine points. And in this past election President Trump won the state by , only about 3. 5 . There are a lot of factors that go into that, but surely immigration is one of them. Can you talk a little bit about what effect you think the president S Immigration policies, broadly, whether its rhetorical, whether it involved daca or the wall, whether it involves controversial pardons perhaps, what that might mean for the politics on the ground in a state like arizona in local elections, statewide elections, Congressional Elections and for the next president ial race . Well, youre right, arizona does trend toward purple, although it trends a little more republican than democratic, although, you know, it has elected democratic governors and senators. And the congressional delegation in the house is about equally divided. You know, i think that one impact could be to stimulate Voter Registration and voting by the latino population. And the fact of the matter is that if the latino population voted at the same percentage as the white population, arizona would be a blue state now. So all of these actions taken together, the rhetoric, the policy pronouncements, the pardon, i think could have the impact of, as i said, increasing latino voter turnout, and we will see that in 2018. Great. So for my last question weve got about five minutes before audience questions. Im going to wrap by asking each of you to think about the next 5 and a half months as congress over what to do on daca , as Congress Mulls over a variety of immigration policies, whether through a funding bill coming in december and probably again two or three months later and two or three months after that, what bit of advice would you give to members of congress who are facing this set of issues . Feel free to talk about whatever portion of that you think is most important to congressional leadership or to rank and