washington. we begin this hour with the breaking news. president biden's advisers are rejecting calls for the presumptive democratic nominee able crumbled last night. now the question is whether biden can rebuild it and 81-year-old president stumbled and stammered through much of the primetime debate on cnn. all you have to do is read some of these headlines to see how his performance has raised serious new doubts if he can remain the democrats nominee biden is toast red one fumbling performance and time to go joe to name a few the top democrat in the house says biden should not step down in an adviser tells cnn that the president plans to debate. again in september, but make no mistake last night was filled with cringeworthy moments it'd be able to help make sure that all those things we need to do childcare, elder care, making sure that we continue to strengthen our health care system, making sure that we're able to make every single solitary person eligible for when i've been able to do with the covid excuse me, with dealing with everything we have to do with look, if we finally beat medicare. there's a lot of young women to be raped by their, by their in-laws, by their by their spouses process and sisters by just it's just ridiculous. and they can do nothing about it. and they tried to rest of my their cross state lines. and i'm going to continue to move until we get the total ban on the total initiative relative to what we can do with more border patrol and more asylum officers president trump, i really don't know what he said at the end of their sentence. i don't think he knows what he said either. he's become a palestinian, but they don't like him because he's a very bad palace city. he's a weak one. but when he talks about a convicted felon, his son as a convicted felon at a very high level, his son is convicted, going to be convicted problem numerous other times should have been convicted before. you have the morals of an alley cat degree mad, sir. i didn't have sex with a porn star. so there's more to be done considerably more to be done. but we've done a great deal so far, and i'm not letting up and they know it you have 49 seconds left what do you say to black voters who are disappointed with the progress so far? >> i say i don't play in the for being disappointed that voters have about you well, you pledge tonight that once all legal challenges have been exhausted, that you will accept the results of this election regardless of who wins. >> and you will say right now that political violence in any form is unacceptable. >> well, i shouldn't have to say that, but of course, i believe that it's totally unacceptable seen an instant poll found that two out of three people who watch the debate declared donald trump the winner. even more alarming for democrats, 57% of debate viewers said they had no confidence and biden's ability to lead the country. and yet the debate was also reminder that the former president is often detached from reality. trump's spent much of the night repeating false claims and debunk lies on issues ranging from january 6 to abortion to foreign policy. and cnn's brazil alvarez joins us dao, or priscilla house, the biden campaign. and surrogates reacting this morning. i mean, they're making a pretty clear it sounds like he's not dropping out they are absolutely maintaining that he is going to stay in the race. not only that, but that he is committed to still attending and debating in september. but what they also acknowledged is that it was i lost her performance by the president at a critical juncture. this is something this comes at a time when voters have repeatedly expressed concern about his age and they wanted a forceful performance, he spent days and camp david preparing for this. but now, given the performance that we saw last night, they are trying to move on. on and they will be doing so on the campaign trail today. but in the immediate aftermath, they were really trying to underscore the stark difference between the two candidates here and trying to put the focus specifically on president biden's record and the vice president senate, quite bluntly, she said it was a slow start, but then she argued it was a strong finish. and that is some of what we're hearing from surrogates this morning, including including campaign co-chair mitch landrieu. take a listen that's it. >> it might loss of debate on style, but he wanted on facts. he wanted on decency, and he wanted all the ideas that people think are important in the country. i don't think that you can call it the debate as a great time. president biden, i think he had a rough, time was like there's no question about it now, biden advisers say that they are frustrated that they also were put in a fact-checking position and that president biden had to play that role over the course of the debate, given trump's multiple falsehoods, but still the the image was quite graham according to democrats, the panic has said, and i was texting with allies last night. >> i said, even on immigration, they knew foreign president donald trump was going to slam president biden on that. he still couldn't give that tight message that they were really hoping that he would be able to deliver. yeah. i was hearing much of the same from my democratic sources last night for so alvarez. thank you very much for that. let's get more on all of this with cnn political commentator and democratic strategy as paul, but gala, he helped prepare bill clinton and al gore for their debates paul i spoke, i spoke with two democratic members of the house after the debate, one privately told me that the president, quote, got destroy the other said there's donor pressure coming for the president. do you think that's an overreaction to what was onstage last night in terms of the president's performance, how bad is this for the president? what do you think no, i'm sorry to smile and it's not funny, but it's an understatement, jim, you got to see what you're saying to me. >> this was a catastrophe for joe biden and i for him. okay. but i don't work for him. i worked for cnn, an iou, the truth and the truth is it was a catastrophe what do you do? i've been there not not like this. we've never seen a performance this bad. one close was when ronald reagan in 1984 sort of lost his train of thought is literally we started wandering up the pacific coast highway. talking about a trip up there he recovered in the next debate and republicans hung very strong with him is this like that? is this like, look a trump by the way, lost the first debate against hillary by even more than joe loss last night. even more. and it was a one-point race. trump wound up winning. so that's sort of the positive scenario. but this is what they've gotta do the first thing you got to do is with the military calls a bomb damage assessment, right? it was a bomb. >> how badly is present damaged have valleys the seriously houses? >> first lady hao's, the vice spread. but then you got to do a threat assessment here's what to look for. it'll start with columnist tom friedman, the new york times is already saying that president biden should step aside with someone else, run then look at donors as you note the president is doing a bunch of fundraisers. one tonight's got one coming up in the hand after the lotto rich liberals, there. are they going to stick by him or are they going to come with pitchforks but then the red state democrats, their butts are on the line as much as joe biden's sherrod brown in ohio, jon tester, senator, a test or from montana senator casey from pennsylvania alyssa slack in a congresswoman from michigan, running for the senate. they're ruben gallego, democratic cars from arizona they've got as much at stake in their own careers as joe biden does. so i'm going to look at all of those folks and see where they yeah. and what do you think? i mean, should party leaders be having discussions with the vice president with gavin newsom of california, with governor shapira of pennsylvania, about having some kind of an open convention. and do you think the president should consider stepping aside? >> i think he's got to listen to all those people. he really does. doesn't matter what i think parties exist to win. that's where they exist. they're not a family. they're not a religion. they exist for one reason to win. and if those red state democrats don't believe that biden can help them win they're going to speak up, then nobody wants to win. certainly hasn't happened yet. but that's what you look for. and that's why this i think is very different 2012, i was with a super pac, but i was hoping the obama reelection and oh, my gosh mitt romney destroyed him that first debate in denver. just destroy them nobody, nobody said cheaper rocks, not up to it mean even to utter the sentence is preposterous, right? everybody knows barack obama was like super human talent. he had a bad night. he recovered. >> and i think that's kinda what the biden people are going to be saying. >> it's like luck, everybody loses their first debate happen to reagan, happen a barack we're going to be fine. but you can tell democrats think this is something more existential and paul, i want to show you and our viewers how the president and his allies responded to last night's performance. >> let's watch well did you have any concerns about your performance it's hard to harden debate in line such a great job you answered every question yes. there was a slow start, but it was a strong finish on substance on pop i'll let's say on performance. joe biden is extraordinarily strong and that cannot be debated. i would never turn my back on president biden. never turn my back on president biden. i don't know what democratic party there would do. so paul, obviously on after a bad debate performance, democrats like the vice president, governor newsom, they're going to rally behind the president. they're not going to throw him under the bus right away. but, i do wonder paul as folks process what we saw last night and absorb it do you think we will see some democratic lawmakers, governor's coming forward or is the president going to have his way here and stay in this race? >> i literally have no idea, jim. i really got here's the risk. >> okay. if any of them called me, i think the first politician, the first democratic politician to call him biden the step-down. it's going to end their career yep. right. they may be right in the eyes of a lot of democrats. but if you're the first one through the door, you're gonna get shot. and i think they all know that. i mean, look, there's a dozen governors in my party. i think it could be very strong, can't it's maybe not a dozen, maybe half a dozen, at least none of them are going to say, hey, let me step forward and knife julius caesar, right? oh, it's just like not in, but might as a beloved man from the democratic party spent his whole life. he delivered us from donald trump his beloved. so it's a really, really difficult move for anybody who thinks they might want to replace him. by the way millions and millions of democrats have already voted. they voted for joe to be their nominee so this is just a hell of a it really is and paul, i mean, a lot of democrats are alarmed this morning that trump was able to get away with so many lies last night, he said his supporters storm the capitol on january 6, or quotes so innocent. and here's how he attempted to frame the insurrection what do you say to voters who believed that you violated that oath through your actions and inaction on january 6, and worried that you'll do it again. why don't think too many believe that and let me tell you about january 6 on january 6, we had a great border nobody coming through. very few president biden also made some misleading claims last night, not nearly as many as donald trump and that's just the way the fact check analysis came down but paul, the president clearly missed opportunity after opportunity to fact check the record and correct donald trump on his lies. >> there were some there were some moments. no question about it, but he missed a lot of opportunities as well. if i were coaching him, i would have told him, don't be the fact checker because if voters you need don't care what he needed to do and failed to do as much more important is tell the audience i am in this for you. he's in this firm, sell to me that's the defining distinction in this race is it trump? again, i'm not for him, i don't like him, so maybe i'm not being fair, but he strikes me as somewhat self-absorbed gym so you could tell a lot of people, people in the middle this guy's going from self by minute for you, biden did not do that. the only good news for biden in this is a trump really was terrible he lied, he was offensive, he couldn't close the deal. like when you have your opponent, like melting down the weight biden did trump should have been he can't do this. he's not capable. it's like me saying, i should run the hundred meter dash in the olympics, but he should have been distinguished. he should have been statesman like he should have been calm and truthful. and he'd be ten points ahead this morning. was he over-prepared? was that a mistake to have him hold up at camp david and pump them fully i'm talking points and so on. i mean, he came out in my my recollection from last night watching is that he was trying to rattle off statistics. he was trying to rattle off talking points and it almost seemed as though he was he was trying to do too much they always do that to presidents in their first debates. again, that's what happened of barack obama. i talk somebody prepared a moment for those debates last night and he sent it not only did we have all the facts, but obama was so offended that romney was lying because precedents aren't treated like that that's a risk bill clinton, i'm sorry to brag on my boss. he's the only incumbent president who won his first debate. why? when we prepped him and i was there we didn't feel his head with too many facts. god knows who already had all the facts. we tried to prepare him for the pummeling bob dole was going to get bundles of great debater. so we got george mitchell, the democratic leader of the senate, gop, better. anyway mitchell, jim mitchell shredded bill clinton. clinton's town. he shredded it, destroyed. and finally, click was yelling at him. that's what they needed to do. i don't blame the prep. i think i think the president wasn't feeling well. i think you're probably right that he had a cold, but his voice was shot and his manner was meandering and it was a catastrophe probably gala, thanks so much. appreciate the time we're also breaking bone breaking news from the supreme court. the court is issuing opinions right now. we're watching and waiting for two major decisions on donald trump's immunity claims and on the january 6 obstruction charges 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stage and back on the campaign trail. donald trump set to hold a rally today with a supporters in virginia, the republican governor, there are glenn youngkin's is also expected to be on hand and cnn's alayna treene isn't sterling, virginia where the former president of staying at his golf club or alayna, what's the reaction and how is the trump campaign? and i tried to keep this momentum going well, part of the way they're going to try to keep it going is with that rally later today, it's actually a few hours from where we are now. >> donald trump is currently in this club behind me, but then he will travel to chesapeake, virginia later today for 3pm rally had luck. when i talked to donald trump's campaign advisers, they said, you can absolutely expect him to take a victory lap tonight. we've also seen them a fundraising heavily off of last night's debates. debate, and trump's performance and really this is reflective of how donald trump's team is feeling. they are very happy with how the debate wet, including with trump's performance. and there's a few things i want to break down for you about that, jim. one is that they weren't entirely sure of how last night would go. i know walking in to the debate and entering atlanta yesterday, they were nervous about a couple of things. one, they had anticipated that joe biden would be a much stronger debater than what they saw last night. they also weren't sure if donald trump would actually take their advice, which was to stay more reserved to try to come off presidential, to not delve too heavily into personal attacks. they were concerned that maybe he would go rogue go on one of his brands that we've seen him give many times on the campaign trail, but he didn't do that for the most part. he part he did stay pretty reserved, especially i know, you and i have both covered donald trump for many years. i thought it was a notable difference in how he held himself last night. the other thing that they have been relishing really is the democratic reaction to joe biden's performance. they have been watching very closely how people in joe biden's own party have been responding on social media, on the news, and they've been trump's team has been sharing that reaction as well. and then the third part about this that i found really interesting is that some of the reporting i had for the debate yesterday was that donald trump's team more than substance really was prioritizing the optics, of prioritizing how donald trump appeared. the facial expressions that they would be that he would be giving, and they thought he did very well with that as well. and so i think again they're just very happy on this. i do want to point out though, of course, if you do look at the substance, donald trump lied repeatedly during the debate. he lied about his role on january 6. he lied about immigration. and so i think those are all things that we have to wait and see how voters actually respond to that, how that debate is resonating with them a week or so from now, because this has definitely, as we've all been saying, going to be a very important footnote as we look ahead to november all right, alayna treene and sterling, virginia. thanks so much. at least one live for every three minutes according to a cnn analysis, donald trump made more than 30 false claims during last night's 90 minute debate to name just a few democrats. he said, are killing babies after birth. there were there's no terror during his administration. he said his tax cuts, he added were the largest in history. and nancy pelosi, he also claimed was in charge of january 6 capitol security. those are all blatant lies. and as often, he does, trump pushed perhaps the largest, most egregious live all that there was massive voter fraud in the 2020 collection. we should note seen as calculated nine false or misleading claims for president biden obviously outweighed by the former president let's discuss with bryan lanza, he was deputy communications director for trump's 2016 campaign. and brian, the president sort of let donald trump off the hook last night with a shaky performance because trump over for an over again, he was lying, he was pushing these widely debunk conspiracy theories why does he keep doing that? let's i wouldn't say joe biden let donald trump off the hook at all last night, i think what we saw last night was the tier the mental deterioration of joe biden. and we can talk about donald trump's this. we can talk about joe biden's lie here, but what the american public saw was a president who just doesn't have the cognitive fitness to be president. and we'll have a conversation and next month, you know whether the 25th amendment is exercise where the democratic party tries to find a new candidate. i think joe biden should be on the ballot this november. i i don't think they should be allowed to switch candidates at this point. they voted, they want him here. we're running, we then resources. it feels cheating to try to change it at this point. well, you don't want that to happen because you want your candidate to win, obviously, but i want the american public could be, but let me ask you about something. >> today. ask you, why does trump keeps saying that democrats want to execute babies after birth? listen that i think it's a ally. sure. i'm not true. i think what you have to do is we have to have the conversation with the campaign to see where the light i think the most important thing that i walked away from the abortion conversation last night was the president trump was proud of nominating supreme court justices who did overturn roe v wade and returned to the states, which is where the american public has wanted it for a significant amount of time. now, sure cnn can cover your and msnbc and that let's can try to sort of focus on the the lines, go afc, don't talk about the press, come on over and over again. he said the january 6 defendants are so innocent, correct? these are people. and what did voters decide? what it is just the capital they broke the law in that would've never happened had donald trump just accepted the results of the 2020 election. and you know? sure. but what if voters decided on that? the voters decided that is not their priority when their vote in this election, there decided public and voters decide he's winning. he's winning independent voters and he's winning the general election leads swing states it's so all voters at this particular point of made the decision that january 6 is not relevant to their lives. they're saying inflation is relevant to our lives. their st. immigration is relevant to our lives. they're saying two wars are willing to their lives with the third one at the start, i get it that the media wants to give covered a joe biden and fock focus about the past, but the future is to joe. joe biden, everybody has reporting. we just went through all the headlines and all the major newspapers there's all the networks are all saying that the president issue and you want to vapor focus on january 6 of voters aren't focusing on january 6 over six. donald trump said last night, let me tell you, lied repeatedly. over and over again. and the president went after trump at one point on his character. let's listen to that because i think that's an important part of those two how many billions of dollars duo and civil penalties for molesting a woman and public. >> four, doing a whole range of things. i'm having sex with a pornstar on the night while your wife was pregnant what what what are you talking about you have the morals of an alley cat good night, sir. i didn't have sex with a pornstar does anybody believe that? >> listen, what everybody believes that the economy today inflation is ruining their lives. and so sort of focusing and i think that's the problem that joe biden, his campaign have, is they can't focus on their accomplishments of the pass, that address immigration, that address inflation, that interest the wars. they have to focus on these other things and so going forward, jim, you tell me what's better for the country, having a conversation about january 6 or having a conversation about immigration and inflation, the voters are making that mean acceptance election results there's something election results is less if joe biden is somehow not on the ticket the trump campaigns worried joe biden worried if, if there's another candidate that rises up and becomes the democratic nominee. >> no, i listen, if joe biden were to step town, it's clearly in recombinant here faris were not worried about kamala harris. >> in fact, that's what the voters need to understand this performance. last gavin newsom, gavin newsom is not the candidate. he's now eating. that's it. it's not about gavin. the next candidate. if joe biden were to drop out, is going to be kamala harris and a voters have made a decision that they trust president trump far more than kamala harris. all right. bryan lanza, thanks for 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lapses in memory i want people to know that president has worked for me. in my memory, except my cognitive quality phase. give it a try. i wanted to help you just like it has helped me. his is cnn the world's news today, the biden team is doing damage control after the president's debate performance as cnn flash poll found 67% of debate watchers thing donald trump, won last night showdown in atlanta and a shocking 57% say they have no real confidence in biden's ability to lead the country joining me now is larry sabato. he is the director of the center for politics at the university of virginia larry, always great to talk to you. what was going through your mind when you watched the debate have you had adjacent process at what do you think? >> i have no chance process. as you know, jim, i've i've watched every single debate i live actually from the ford nixon kennedy debates in 1960 to the present. and it gives me no joy to say this, but president biden's performance was the worst by a major party nominee for president in that entire time period. now, having said that, i they had a proviso to your poll there donald trump did not win that debate joe biden lost it donald trump lied his way through it, your own fact checker has documented that as other fact-checkers have. so you have to balance these things and obviously, the biden team has a lot of repair work to do. it's not just the democrats who are privately falling for a replacement on biden. i think he has lost the confidence of a lot of just rank and final citizens to watch the whole thing are part of it. it wants disturbing yeah. and i do want to ask you this because i was just talking to a trump surrogate a few moments ago and they seem petrified of the idea of somebody replacing joe biden on the ticket. could the democratic party, you know this all too well? could the democratic party feasibly replace joe biden as the nominee before the convention in august. could they? do it at the convention? how might that work i do know the rules and i can tell you in less joe biden decides himself to step down to relinquish the nomination ahead of the convention. >> there is no feasible way to replace him. none. so people can get that out of their heads if they're going to try and convince him to step down at has to be in advance of the convention. and then it is possible to have what we used to have even 1960 fits this model, kind of an invention where you have people nominated and seconded and speeches are given and then the vote is taken. hey, good john f. kennedy didn't get the nomination until wyoming, the last date voted. it was really quite close. >> that's fascinating. and my colleague laura coates conducted a focus group in the swing state of michigan. here's what one voter had to say about both candidates. >> i have three teenage boys that are sitting back in there watching this presidential debate. and when i was growing up, we would have never been talking about molestation, rape, and having sex with porn stars. but here we are. so what kind of example am i setting for these three teenage boys who are watching both of these guys? squabble. i'm in this way yeah, larry, i mean, there's been a lot of conversation about joe biden's shaky performance last night. >> but as you said, as we've been reporting on this program, others have as well. daniel did are fact checker, donald trump basically lied to that entire debate last night. and on top of that, he was kind of for the first time called out for his massive character flaws. i mean, he is very much a flawed candidate to obviously the republican party is in no mood to toss him overboard. but he's not exactly a squeaky clean coming out of this either. >> oh, my god, i would never those paperwork clean with trump not only was biden correct. to point out these character flaws, he was also correct. the calling him a convicted felon, he ought to do it more often. but you know what disturbed me more than anything, jim, it was what donald trump said about my little area of charlottesville because he lied about that. and then january 6, that was the outrageous part of it everything he said was a lie so is it possible there? and i do have to make this one quick. is it possible that because you and i both know this when people watch it as it's happening, they can have one reaction, but as the days go by, the coverage sinks and people can process this and have different reactions can biden pull this thing out of the ditch. do you think it can? but he's going to have to have a lot of unscripted public appearances, getting interviews to people like you. he's got to go public in an unscripted way and show people that that was exceptional for whatever reason, a colon well does not a good enough excuse. but there was something wrong and he has to show people that it wasn't the norm for him. >> yeah. yeah. and i'm not sure a lot of folks bought the whole cold thing. either, but all right. larry saboteur. good to talk to as always, you always good. but to a straight appreciate it. coming up. did we did we witness joe biden's nixon debate moment last night, how history might judges performance. that's nice. >> celebrate, go forth in america thursday, july 4th, they 70s dirt on cnn. >> i brought in a chore max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried to me felt more energy and just to weeks here, i'll take that ensure max protein, 30 grams protein one prim sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals, and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic this summer snacking just got serious introducing new $3 footlong divers world might not be ready for but at $3 a pop, your wallet definitely is at morgan stanley, old-school hardware meets bold new thinking at 88-years-old. we still see the world with a wonder of new eyes helping you discover untapped possibilities and relentlessly working with you to make them real old-school grid, new world ideas. morgan stanley, want a theory i'm exposure right in your 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you 808 to 14000 democrats are sounding the alarm this morning, but where does last night's debate rank among previous debates and will biden's performance go down in the history books for all the wrong reasons, joining me now, cnn contributor and staff writer for the new yorker, evan osnos he's the author of joe biden life, the run and what matters now in a cnn presidential historian tim naftali is with us as well. >> tim to a great to see you, evan, i'm here with you in the studio that haven't let me start with you. i remember back in 2015 when then vice president biden was thinking about running and he was caught on this dnc conference call saying, i don't have the emotional fuel to run and this was after his son, beau biden died. i'm wondering if he's at that moment right now where he's going to have to try to decide these coming days at based on last night's performance four chorman's does he have the fuel to run? does he have the fuel to make it to the finish line this time, this is one of those crucible moments. this is a moment when he is making that decision, then it's a combination of his personal chemistry and the qrs he gets from the people around it, which is different. i have to say then the whole chatter that's out there in the country, he realize as you know, jim on us small circle of people who are deeply trust the trust, their instincts. it's almost sort of beyond having to talk about it. he can read their faces. and it was that moment there was also a moment back in 1987 after he had to plagiarism scandal in that race when he was trying to figure out if he could ride it out and it was his friend, ted kaufman who said, look, the only way you escape the sharks here, i'm paraphrasing is to get out of this race. but there have been other moments and this is the central mythology of joe biden's life is there are times when you get knocked down that you have to get back up. and i think it's those two instincts to read the room or to believe in your capacity to rise above and to be resilient that are competing within him, right? >> yeah. and tim, what do you think? do you think the president should be huddling with that type council of inner, inner circle advisors that he has to decide what to do here. it sounds as though from what we're hearing from the president's campaign, is that nope, he's not he's not dropping out. this was just a bad night. he's going to keep going well, jam evan wrote a wonderful book on joe biden and evan would know best if the deterioration that we saw last night is a sign of something much deeper than a cold i'm my concern is that if indeed the president has something other than a cold will the team around him guide him to a tough decision not to run again? it's one thing when we're talking about taking the keys away from grandpa so that he doesn't drive anymore. it's something quite different when we're talking about the nuclear the codes. and what i worry about thinking about the grand the sort of broad view is that the power of incumbency is so strong that it is very difficult to, convince or persuade aid and incumbent president not to run again i were to accept election results for that. >> well, well, that's a different case in donald trump's case. that's a unique case in our history. yeah. but i was thinking about 19:44 and we're in a different era from 1944 and 1944, you could hide the fact that the president had a chronic condition. he had congestive. that's franklin roosevelt had congestive heart failure. i'm not suggesting that president biden has a chronic condition but last night's performance was shocking as i said, evan would know best it's shocking because he had a bad night or something bigger is at stake and it's happening now. >> it's a good question, tim, evan, what do you think? you know he has as you often hear good days and bad days yesterday was clearly a bad day. but there was also the state of the union not too long ago where people said, okay, this is an 81-year-old who still got some fire in the belly that was not the person we saw last night. i think. i suppose happened to the over prep him during the debate. >> i will say i did get the sense having heard a lot of his points before his policy ideas, what it looked to me like, he had them all they're stacked up in his mind well he was ready to bring them out and they they kind of collided into one another like cars on the highway and there was a way in which you heard him he was racing through his ideas. >> but the way he was trailing off you know, joe biden that is that that's the kind of moment that's not just a senior moment are stumbling because you haven't had enough sleep a lot of us can relate to that this morning it seemed like something more is going on. >> yeah. i think he has said for a long time, i feel a lot younger than my age, and that's not a it's not an untrue statement. he in some ways has trouble seeing others seeing him and he has an idea of himself which was implanted. and then when he was very young and so on, you heard him talk about a bit last night. but the decision to do this debate you have to schedule it as early in the campaign is they did is a sign that he and his campaign thought that sitting side-by-side with donald trump would be to his benefit and clearly, it was not. >> yeah. and tim, i was talking with larry sabato about this a few moments ago. is it possible at this point for joe biden? but to say that's it right off into the sunset and let somebody else come in. the clock would be clock is ticking, obviously, jim, we are living in unprecedented times. the very fact that we saw two presidents debate each other as a reminder of that uh, no, it's not too late. is it likely it's not likely, but it's not too late. remember that joe biden hasn't been formerly nominated by the democrats yet. that's what made yesterday is debates so unusual. we had two men who were not actually the formal nominees. debate. they don't even have platforms. so it is not too late. it is highly unlikely and it's a decision that will be made for medical reasons by the family and it'll be an issue of retirement. it won't be because he can't be elected. it'll be because he is not up to the task of leading the country for four years. >> alright, tim and evan, thanks so much. i wanna go to wolf blitzer now with some breaking news major breaking news coming from the u.s. supreme court right now, there has been a decision on a very, very important and sensitive issue, obstruction charges for january 6, assault for the january 6 assault, this is a case called fischer versus the united states. let's go to pamela brown. she's over at the supreme court for us. pamela set the scene for us. tell us what the united states supreme court justices have now decided. >> yeah, this is the case. one of the cases we've been waiting for, and essentially it is a win for some of the january 6 defendants and could have locations for donald trump as well. i want to bring in my colleague, paula reid for more on this and what the justices ruled that we just got this opinion handed to us from the supreme court. and here are the supreme court is limiting prosecutors ability to bring obstruction charges in cases related to january 6. now, this is significant not only for the people who have been charged with obstruction related to the january 6 attack but also potentially for the former president who faces a to charges related to obstruction. now we are still reading through this opinion, but what we know right now is this was this was written by chief justice john roberts and the recently tossing this case back down to be relitigate it. now, this case focuses on a former pennsylvania police officer. he was indicted by a grand jury for seven different counts related to his actions on january 6, one of them was obstruction and he argued that the way the obstruction law is written, it was never meant to apply to what happened on january 6. instead, he said it was specifically plea written to prevent people from interfering with congressional inquiries. it was written in the wake of enron, so that he was arguing that this was only meant to apply to people who interfered with evidence or actual investigations, not what happened on january 6. and we saw an oral arguments he definitely had some justices who were sympathetic to this argument. so here, chief justice john roberts, this is one of the biggest cases that we've been watching so far, tossing this back down and limiting prosecutors ability to pursue obstruction charges against this individual and others. and i do have some notes here. we know that approximately really 250 cases related to january 6 involve this obstruction case. they are pending now, 52 people have already been convicted and sentenced with this specific obstruction charge. and of those 27 people are incarcerated. now, what we have not gotten today is the other january 6 cases switches the question of whether former president trump has immunity that would shield him for his charges. we appears we are not likely to get that today, but we know they're going to release more opinions on monday. this is a very significant opinion. this is one of the big ones we've been watching for waiting for it. i would also expect a former president away. and even though this doesn't have to deal with him specifically, i would expect he's going to weigh in here and talk talk about prosecutorial overreach or what he would describe as prosecutorial overreach. i want to hone in on the donald trump part of this because as you noted, two of the felony charges and the election subversion case stems from this federal law, weighs exactly and even though that has to do with the fake electors scheme, right? nine great physical intrusion. but that's not going to stop donald trump from at least trying to undermine the case, right? that's exactly right. and look, we have to read through this a full opinion to see if they speak to that because of course, prosecutors jack smith is going to argue that trump's conduct was completely different than those folks who were actually here on capitol hill on january 6. they've been argued that his obstruction manifested itself differently, but the justices knew this is a question that's going to arise from this. so we'll have to look through the opinion line by line to see if the justices give any indication of whether the former president will be able to try to fight his obstruction charges based on this opinion. but of course, we're still waiting for the big trump-related case out of the supreme court. the question about whether he and former president's have immunity that case we did not get today who are he is arguing he should have sweeping immunity as a former executive, jack smith is saying, no, he shouldn't, and that his actions were private conduct. so that's gonna be a huge case that we'll have a massive implications on this ruling. that's just coming out about the january 6 defendants in this obstruction law. you noted the numbers there and at least i believe you said 52 defendants were charged just with this obstruction law. so what happens, i mean, did they go back and reopen the case? i'm i've been sentence. i think they're all going to try if that's your only charge, right. and it's a felony charge of horse. now that the supreme court has tried to limit the ability to charge obstruction-related to to january 6. of course, you're going to try to go back and reopen your case. a relitigate it. now we have to see specifically what the supreme court said to get a sense of how successful all of those people are going to be. but yeah, i mean, this is really good news for the people who are just charged with obstruction as their only felony. now, 27 of them are currently incarcerated. so obviously, for them, this is probably frustrating, but still good news because they may be able to go and potentially depending on what the supreme court said exactly, we just got this opinion. they may be able to have some of their convictions over in terms. so i went to another big case that actually came out today, a ruling about the power of federal agencies. and it has been severely weakened, which could have implications for everyone in the public and private sector, right? this is an enormous case. i truly believe that while the questions related january 36 are a very significant they affect hundreds of people, potentially a former president. this case, the so-called chevron case. this is about the power of federal agencies. this is something that will change life for almost every single american in this country. i'm actually a little bit surprised that it wasn't the last case that was released because usually the most significant case is released last, but we got audit shortly before we got immunity. and here what they're doing is they're basically overturning about 40 years of precedent where agencies, federal agencies are given broad deference in terms of technical issues and the power of government and decision-making and shifting that back to the courts. now that is incredibly significant because especially during former president trump's tenure and even now, so much discussion about the power of the courts, the federal judiciary. this is a really significant case. we saw this as the likely outcome though in oral argument and you and i were here yesterday the court handed down two cases limiting power at the sec and the epa. they've been chipping away at the power of the federal government and federal agencies. and we anticipated this is the way this this case would go. but in this case, yes, they are overturning again, decades of precedent. this goes back to 1984 and shifting a lot of power from federal agencies to the courts. it is an earthquake in terms of the power of the federal government. i would argue with all respect to former president trump, this is the most significant decision that will make this term. >> i mean, i just wanted to soak that up right. because you said 40 years, this is what it's bad and it could directly impact every single american and rylee shifts the power from the executive branch to the judiciary. and as you pointed out, there's already a lot of discussion about the power that these judges have. and this just gives them more power that it could impact you at home. all right, wolf blitzer back to you well, i pamela, thank you very much and thanks to paula reid as well. >> we'll get back to both through your own are bringing elie honig, are legal analyst to give us your assessment. this is a major decision by the united states supreme court that will limit dramatically these obstruction charges against some those who went and write it on the u.s. capitol on january 6, and it potentially could affect some of the charges that have actually been leveled against the former president of the united states herself? exactly. well, if this is an enormous decision, this is a stinging rebuke to the justice department. now, doj char several hundred of the capitol rioters under a statute called up structure of an official proceeding. what the court has said today is that statute does not apply to physical efforts to interfere with congress. there has to be some element of falsifying documents are forging documents or destroying documents. it's a deep statutory construction, but that's how they came out worth noting, by the way, this is a 6-3 opinion, but it's not your tree additional six conservatives, three liberals, justice amy coney, barrett actually dissent. she joins with sotomayor and kagan, justice ketanji brown jackson joins with the majority, including the chief and alito and thomas and gorsuch and kavanaugh now. so this means first of all, hundreds of doj's cases in which they've charged this statue are now likely going to have to be vacant okay. to now most of those cases involve other charges. two, but there were about 50 or so or the defendant was only charged with this law, how it relates to donald trump. donald trump is facing four counts in the jack smith indictment. two of those counts are this count are obstruction. so the question for jack smith now is, does he tried to keep those counties? let's in his case? his argument will be while we have these false slates of electors, that's false documents. maybe i'll be okay under this, but he's taking a risk. so the question now is, does jack smith tried to keep these two obstruction charges in his case? he has two other conspiracy charges or does he dropped them and proceed only on the conspiracy charges? let's bring an andrew mccabe and get your assessment. what do you think? >> get it out? well, i think there's big decisions to be made in the special counsel team over the next couple of months in whatever direction they decided if they maintain those charges no doubt. this decision creates another opportunity before donald trump's team to file motions demanding the charges be vacated, and that will provoke decisions which will then be appealed if they don't go the way the defense team prefers. so absolutely this could result in adding additional delay to a case that we know has already been plagued by numerous delays audie cornish is with us as well. >> audio. what's your assessment? this is a major move right now, a major decision that affects some individuals who've already been found guilty. some of them actually pleaded guilty, and some of these charges might not have might now have to be removed well, just to put this in context, this was a charge that often was placed on top of other charges the proverbial sort of throwing the book at these defendants. >> and so this is one of the reasons why mr. fisher challenged it. now, it's worth reading justice jackson's concurring opinion because she basically says, look, it does not appear that congress in tended for this law to encompass so many different things. this was originally passed as we talked about in context of the enron scandal, where there was a shredding of documents, so to say that kind of rushing a building during i'm gonna official ceremony is the same didn't really hold water with the justice's. so i also think andy mccabe and others can weigh in on this. jack smith sort of new he, he didn't want to create a scenario where his entire case rested on this particular charge and while he was watching it closely, i don't think the things he's trying to charge the former president with our dependent on this ruling in the same way that say the presidential immunity case could be seeing because two of the four charges that have been leveled against the donald trump, two of the four involve these obstruction charges. and if they're removed, that would be a significant development right there. >> it would it would not be more significant, however, then a ruling that could come i'm that says what an official act is for president and delineates what is and is not immune in those actions. that's really going to have far-reaching consequences justice gorsuch said as much during arguments where he said this is not just about this president. so i think that's still the one to watch. but what this does do it is bolster the argument of critics who said, look january 6, rioters were somehow sort of over prosecuted or i won't go as far as some people have said in terms of them being persecuted. but those folks can now turn to their lawyers and say, hey can we look at my sentence again let me get andrew mccabe. >> i'm curious to get your thoughts. what does this do to the special counsel, jack smith's case that has already been leveled against donald trump that case will go forward either with all four current charges or with only the two non obstruction charges. the question for them is, do they keep them in or they tried to go forward, or do they take them out? take the very conservative, careful course i think there's a very strong argument to be made that donald
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