rec i learned thoughts on capitol hill hello. everyone, and welcome to the amazon for our haiti is where we're headed dispute new world order as outcast dictators press the flesh and pyongyang. >> how will america's next president challenge this anti-us axis? >> biden and trump insiders make their case. >> from my archive flashback to when the star spangled banner was played in north korea in a bygone age for musical diplomacy. also, these hours, the doctor who saved the hamas leaders life. and what he learned about yahya sinwar. >> here's willing to sacrifice even 100,000 palestinians in order to ensure the survival of his rule, then the palestinian struggles through the eyes of an award-winning author and feel as human rights champion and legendary designer, diane von first berg on rockstar three sons, and taking charge. >> i just don't understand the concept of being intimidated by your age. i think it's a victory welcome to the program, everyone, i'm christiana amanpour in london, and we begin with the outcast dictators club the foreign policy crises facing america's next president. >> nearly a quarter century since his last visit, russian president vladimir putin was back in north korea this week for a splashy display of mutual cooperation with dictator kim jong on. putin needs north korean arms for his ongoing war against ukraine. kim wants russian cash military technology, and political legitimacy in return the visit comes at a critical time in the shifting world order as the anti-us axis, russia, china, north korea, and iran uses every opportunity to undermine american leadership whoever wins the presidency in november faces a daunting presidency in november faces a daunting checklist of foreign policy issues. so this hour we're asking people in the room how trump and biden would navigate these troubled diplomatic waters. in a moment, i'll speak to ambassador david satterfield, a career diplomat who was one of biden's special middle east and voice and the former ambassador two turkey. but we begin with robert o'brien, who was trump's national security advisor from 2019 to 2021. in our exclusive conversation, i began by asking him what a trump administration would have made of the putin kim summit well cortana, it's obviously very concerning because the north koreans have that massive amount of artillery shells and are providing those to the russians who are killing ukrainian. >> so then our partners and go or who are solidly behind ukraine and it's a very concerning situation. so i just want to read from your op-ed basically, you said about biden, china's summit's. >> this is a policy of pageantry over substance meetings and summit's or activities not achievements. but when i spoke to the former south korean foreign minister, she said that the trump kim summits were very similar, that they was a lot of pageantry, but very little impact i spoke to earlier this year take a listen to what she told me. >> this is a continuation of a pattern that began after the debacle of the 2019 hanoi summit between the united states and north korea. after that, they immediately went back to launching the missiles and that has picked up speed, more frequency in the recent years, this is the typical trump leadership on these issues swell, but very little follow up. and as support from the working level. >> so what do you say to that? because this could come up again and there was hope that there could be a resolution of a lot of problems when trump met kim jong one, but no follow-up even at the working level, does that trouble you yeah. >> i would disagree with the foreign foreign minister eye on that front. i mean, keep in mind christiana, when president trump took office, president obama told them that this is gonna be be the most difficult foreign policy question he faced. the north crow is busy to testing nuclear weapons. are, there are launching and testing long-range icbms and missiles could reach of why maybe the west coast, the united states and president trump took a piece of through strength approach to dorothea. we will remove the carrier battle group in the yellow sea and put a lot of pressure on the north koreans. and when they realized that they weren't gonna get away with it, they changed tax and then we had some chromosomes diplomacy with them keep in mind they promised to did a nuclear eyes as they progress and new nuclear program on the peninsula. now that did in fact end up happening, but keep, keep in mind, there was no nuclear testing during the entire trump administration because we've showed strength coupled. >> now they have continued their, their military testing, their military threats, and they are now huge supporters. some say that putin would not do very well without north korea or iran. so this sort of axes has built a lot, has been said about what trump might do, say, et cetera. he's already said that he has a brilliant plan to end the war in 24 hours, et cetera do you believe because some of the things he said leads people to believe that he would encourage ukraine to essentially sue for peace his well present serve as never recommended. i've never heard him say that we should given to put in summands. no one is on board with that but we've got all wars end around a table and we have to recognize that. but right now, the russians have no incentive to come to the table vladimir putin thinks he's winning the war. he thinks time is on his side. you criticize the biden admitted distraction or the obama administration and other europeans for not being strong enough after 2014 and many, many would agree with you. do you think that trump administration should would you recommend a lot more weapons to ukraine, the kind at once, a lot more thans to ukraine, the kind at once, a lot more anti-aircraft air defenses a craft, long-range artillery, the kind of stuff that actually makes a difference in this kind of war. while we should've gotten that equipment at the beginning, remember the polls want to send their megs to ukraine and it was a biden administration that stopped them from sandi that makes the ukraine so absolutely we, should give, no weapons. they need to defend themselves into end a fight and wind. but the real thing is a half measures on the sanctions. but if we put heavy heavy-duty sanctions on the russians, on their oil sales, that might be enough to bring putin to the table. and i think that's what president trump has in mind. >> all right. >> so then the question is, who does trump identify more with there is a big, body of thought that he identifies with these strong men, people like putin, people like xie, let me just read you and i'm sure you've read this before or had it read to you in 1990, president trump, then he was donald trump gave an interview to playboy magazine. >> and he basically criticized me ciao gorbachev, who was the common of the soviet leader then for failing to hold the soviet empire together, not a firm enough hand. and he simultaneously praised the chinese communist leadership for crushing the student uprising at tiananmen square. >> they were, they were vicious, they were horrible, but they put it down with strength is what he's said. so there is a real concern in the democratic world about the impact on democracy and the thriving of autocracy in this kind of strong man behavior under a second trump administration were carsharing. we've got four years to show why we have pmos to charge salam trump. >> we have no invasion of ukraine. we had no oh, massacre in israel, no invasion and israel taiwan was safe. we ended the war against the isis with a rare victory in that war. we had a piece seals and the middle east with the abraham accords and europe with serbia, kosovo with healing the golf rift in the gulf. so i think people can look the world as it is today and look at was four years ago and say, is it was a world better off, am i better off now? or was i better off four years ago? and i think the answer is especially when it comes to foreign affairs and geopolitics, it's pretty, it's pretty easy answer when we come back, the response to that from biden's former white house special envoy for middle east humanitarian affairs, ambassador david satterfield and then after that, why legendary fashion easter diane von furstenberg has no regrets we'll be right back. why a businessman can go on on to arrive at the beverly hills hotel and and you know, go out with one man and 11 girl and another go the next day. and why can a woman do that? i mean, why? >> the most anticipated moment of this election and the stakes couldn't be higher. the president and the former president's one stage moderated by jake tapper dana bash, to cnn presidential debate thursday night at nine live on cnn and streaming on max. >> it's time to feed the dogs real food in the right amount. a healthy weight can help dogs live longer, happier life. the farmers dog and makes weight management easy with fresh food 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at risk. >> and that's why we have to keep fighting in every state, everywhere donate 19 dollars a month or whatever you've lost that block care and take away our rights. >> we fight to make sure everyone and anyone can get the care they need. >> but we need your help. and there's never been a more urgent time to join. so go online, call or scan this code now, sign up up with your monthly gift today and we'll send you this care no matter what t-shirt it is, your right to have a safe health care. that's it. >> we won't give up and we won't back down. >> we need you now more than ever, go online, call or scan right now. >> i'm paula reid in washington and this is cnn welcome back to the program now, before the break, you heard the former national security adviser, robert o'brien, give us his foreign policy pitch for a second. >> trump presidency joining me now is david satterfield, a career diplomat biden special envoy, and former ambassador to turkey, davis outfield ambassador. welcome to the program happy to be here. so one of the huge issues is obviously the raging war in europe, 80 years after d-day, after the end of world war ii robert o'brien and president trump basically criticize the obama administration when biden he was vice president for not confronting putin enough during the 2014 invasion and annexation of crimea invasion and annexation of crimea. and also, if you remember, not giving ukraine lethal weapons like the javelins when they needed them. what, what is your answer to that before we go on? to the future christiane, i think there's no question that the limited response after the annexation of crimea led putin to believe that he could make further advances on the territory of ukraine or elsewhere without significant challenge from the united states and the international community that was in retrospect, a significant error with respect though to the approach to ukraine after the russian invasion, the administration engaged in quite extraordinary and almost unprecedented campaign prior to the invasion of making very clear to the world privately and publicly that we knew exactly what putin was planning to do. >> but i can tell you this the intent of the administration was to avoid if at all possible, an escalation with a nuclear power. russia that could involve directly the united states, the wisdom or ill wisdom of that. again, is a matter of four historians. the point is, the us is now robustly supporting ukraine including in a very selective fashion of the targeting of those facilities in russia that are being used for specific attacks on ukraine. >> what can an american administration do to make sure naught is doing right now? >> well, the approach that has the greatest chance of success is a multilateral one night outer unilateral one. it is assembling and then sustaining a coalition of parties who do have influence with p on gang to the extent that any country or combination of countries do in that very unique place to make clear that there will be no support for the economy, no support for or legitimization for a korea's banded behaviors. and that's the term you use banditry. this is a regime which gauges and behaviors not just at the level of ballistic missile challenges or nuclear programs that go beyond the rest home of international conduct. let me turn to the middle east or your area of most recent specialty. >> and when we had oslo and there was that grab been are there was the king of jordan? there was, yes. arafat, there was a period in which it appeared that all the convening powers and the parties themselves were on a certain route. now that obviously didn't last. it didn't and it failed, but the latest several years have been, i guess, the end of the been i guess the end of the obama administration and then whatever happened in the trump administration, essentially, there was almost no engagement on the palestinian issue do you think that a second. any future american president can avoid putting the palestinian issue at the center of israel's need for security of the desire to have normalization with saudi arabia as well as the uae, et cetera. christiane, i think it's critical that any u.s. administration pursue two courses in parallel one is to continue to underscore as this administration is doing, that a two-state resolution, a credible pathway to a two-state outcome through negotiations has to be the overarching frame in which ultimate security well-being of the quiet miracle of a normal life as bill clinton spoke to, uh, can be achieved. but at the same time their needs to be a strategic vision for the region as a whole. you've got to pursue both the palestinian israeli course and the broader regional course for stability and peace and finally, i read out to robert o'brien a few quotes that donald trump, when he was just a businessman, had made to playboy. >> in other words regretting that gorbachev at the time was to softer soviet leader the chinese, who crushed tenements square actually got order back. i just wonder whether you think president biden's mission to bolster democracy against the autocratic world sustainable now and how you would rate it given what we're seeing, for instance, in europe, right? we're seeing these latest elections favoring quite a lot of the far-right extremists christiane, the message that democracy not demagoguery that the advance of human interests in human values, not a resort to fear and fear mongering is the best way forward for the world, not just for the united states is a message that has to be repeated. and 80 years after d-day this is an even more profound message that freedom democracy is indeed the best course for the world, because the alternative has led the world into tragedy, into haar too many times in the past ambassador david satterfield. thank you so much, indeed. >> thank you. >> and when we come back, something completely different rockstar three sims and no regrets. woman in charge, diane von 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with david bowie and mick jagger diane von furstenberg, shaman obeyed chinoy, welcome to the program hello well, listen, one of the most extraordinary things is how you decided to start the program. >> diane has always owned herself and always being authentic. and this clip we're going to play right now because i i just laughed out loud when i saw it i don't understand why so many people do not embrace age being attracted by ringtones, you know age, age means less you shouldn't say how old you are. >> you should say how long have you lived? if you take all your wrinkles the way you know the map of your life is different i don't really want to erase anything from my life. >> then are many women that, you know, i mean, even younger than you who would be that honest about age. >> but what i don't understand, i don't understand and this honest about age. i mean, age means you have lived. so you have to honor that. and when you age, you already have, you know, you already have the years before so i don't understand the concept of oh, not one thing to say, your age. and 77 vn years old. and i couldn't be a week younger because last week i learned a lot so it's i i just don't understand the concept of being intimidated by you intimidated by your. age. i don't think it's a victory. yeah. that's great. but you work in the fashion industry, you live in new york you know, so many women who have tried to erase the wrinkles and jack up their faces. you see she said messi book clue. >> she gave the address you say that you know, 18 months after your mother emerged alive from auschwitz, you were born. there's an extraordinary scene whereby some of your mother, the fragments of the little letters your mother wrote, the shoe is on the way essentially to the concentration camp that were eventually found sound because you found them a decades later, i'm going to play this clip from the documentary. >> she took some cardboard and she wrote to her parents and she threw it in the street hoping that somebody would find it and she never easy. she said messi book cool, she gave the address and she wrote to have pat my mika. it's warm are pretty papain vertebra tigirlily, that taenia who nva and good, who's-who year to lay play cohesion japan, and italy, so you who i think that's extraordinary. two, i leave with a smile, is it takes something to be able to write that then it wasn't true. i mean, it's not like she left with a smile, but she wanted her parents to think, yeah. the vive 14 months and she always said that she felt that she survived because her mother's well, yeah. >> and i want to do and you're sitting next to shaman. i mean, obviously a younger generation, but also from a country. let's face it, pakistan that simply would never be bearing wrap dresses. what does it feel like to be a successful woman in you know, in pakistan well, i will say this that i'm very much a product of pakistan. >> i was born and raised there. i found my voice and pakistan, i live and work out a pakistan, the space exists for women like myself to be there. we have to let's continue to fight every single day for our rights, but let's be honest, women in america fighting for their reproductive rights these days, women in europe are fighting for their rights. there are giant steps being taken around the world for women who are being pushed back. some of us live in countries which are far more difficult for women than others. but i will say that women like myself, stay in our countries. we speak out and we try and push the narrative forward so that our children and our daughters have a better tomorrow. >> i want i was actually very interested in when you touched on diane's sexuality. and i mean, there was that amazing clip where diane talks about having hadn't or i don't know how how you describe it, but with warren beatty and ryan o'neal in the same weekend and just nearly went into a threesome with mick jagger and david bowie. i mean, that's pretty hot stuff why did you want to include that well, you should really ask me, why are we even said that and the truth is that at that time it was something to boast about why why a businessman can go on tour arrive at the beverly hills hotel and and you know, go out with one man and 11 girl and another go the next day. >> and why can a woman to do that? i mean, it's i mean, it's part of you know, just just speaking the truth. and i was quite proud of it. i mean, i actually still they were hard. they went early 30s. >> i'm diane von furstenberg, shaman obeyed she and i thank you so much thank you. thank you and the documentary, diane von furstenberg, woman in charge is out on hulu on tuesday this coming week, june 25th, up next, we take you back to a time when nuclear diplomacy got musical assist from my archive. >> when the new york philharmonic won hearts and minds in pyongyang the most anticipated moment of this election. and the stakes couldn't be higher. the president and the former president, 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you make the rules i brought in a juror max protein with 30 grams of protein. those who tried me felt more energy in just two weeks. here, i'll take that i'm sure not to protein 30 grams, protein one prim sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic did you know sling has your favorite news programs for just $40 a month my favorite news for just $40 a month my favorite news for just $40 a month. faulty dollars a month like favorite for just $40 $40 get your favorite news, are $40 a month. sling lets you do that this little secret. was secrets and spies tomorrow at ten on cnn welcome back to the program. >> we now turn to the most reclusive nation on earth, north korea, known as the hermit kingdom. kim jong owns grand display of pomp and pageantry vladimir putin this past week signal the deepening ties between these two strong men who have nurtured their growing anti-american alliance since russia's 2022, full-scale invasion of ukraine, north korea, and the united states have had a prickly relationship ever since the 1950s. and the korean war but there have been rare breakthroughs as the us tried to contain pyongyang's nuclear ambitions. one of those came in 2008, amid a successful attempt by president george w bush to persuade kim jong ones father, kim jong il, to actually dismantle. their main reactor that crucial opening also included a rare opportunity for journalists to visit the hermit kingdom from my archive when american musical diplomacy won hearts and minds in north korea north korea is putting on quite a show for its american yes there's excitement in the air the government has flipped the switch on its power starved capital the lights are on. >> the curtain is up, and the audience stands as the new york philharmonic plays, north korea's national anthem but who could have imagined this the star spangled banner played in public in pyongyang wringing out through this concert hall and through these north korean homes an important political breakthrough said one top north korean official since both countries a technically still at war i think if it can help create peace several lofty goal, but i think it's something that needs to be done new york fill up tonight all eyes will be on the musicians and all ears on every node they may just be another concept with no ramifications at all. >> in which case we've got another free concept the philharmonic, pick this program wagner opera lohengrin zhai new world symphony and george gershwin's classic foot conducted. >> lauren nasal this was a pivotal moment that seemed to be like a feeling of camaraderie, practically so it was not them and us those who couldn't attend the concert could watch it on live television could you give on june thought that it would be possible. joan you song is a former high ranking official with north korea's states symphony he and his family watched from their living room get know now, you've done these events, show the will to improve the relations between our countries but it wasn't until the encore that the ice finally melted this is, i rerun a famous and favorite folk song for all kuria it's the story of a man and a woman's separated by circumstances beyond their control a musical metaphor perhaps, for korean reunification. >> and tonight, these north koreans love this american gesture neither the orchestra, more the audience once you get, to end it was an extraordinary moment in time, but it did come to a screeching end after kim jong il death three years later. >> on that same trip though, he had wanted to show the world through cnn that the top secret nuclear plant in young beyond was being mothballed and lay he didn't even called us back to witness them blowing up their water cooling tower today, there is no meaningful u.s. diplomacy with kim jong on, who is now believed to have nuclear weapons and lots of ammunition and other weapons, which he is supplying to putin's war in ukraine coming up on the program in 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near impossible in his first television you view outside israel the man who wants save sinwar's life gave us just that insight into the mind of the man in charge of the israeli hostages now, and whether or not to call a ceasefire directing the war from 50 feet underground as the dentist then head of intelligence in israel's prison system you've all baton saved sinwar from a potentially lethal brain abscess and spent countless hours studying and analyzing him. >> he also blames sinwar directly for planning the attacks that killed his nephew, tamir adar. and he joined me from tel aviv to recount this remarkable story. you've all you said that on the morning of october 7, you knew immediately who had planned this massacre how come journey mcu it because i know the person who planned and conceived and initiated this criminal attack i have known him since 1996. not that if john was not only him, but the entire hamas leadership in gaza and it was clear to me that this is what they were planning while they were still in prison and this is the plan of hamas. >> it was very clear to me or tell mode bore, you're talking about yahya sinwar and you said that when you realize what happened on october 7, you were kind tormented by what you did for him in jail. you essentially saved his life tell me about that story alpine. >> where alba, in 2004, i save sinwar's life in prison i was a doctor who diagnosed the problem he had when he explained to me what was happening to him. i diagnosed it as a stroke and together with the general practitioner, we decided to take him to the hospital he arrived at the hospital the diagnosis was that he had abscess in the brain and he was operated on that day. well, you a little bit of the saving his life because if it had exploded, he would have died he thanked me, ended doctors for saving his life. he also told me that on the day he was released into gilad shalit deal in 2011, that he owed me his life and one day he will repay it and as you understand, he repaid it on october 7 and that he was also directly responsible for the murder of my nephew in kibbutz nir it's actually lock young should do, but kibbutz nir yours can i ask you what you learned about sinwar and hamas in jail? i would lb i had many hours hundreds of hours of conversation with sinwar, both as a dentist and as an intelligence officer what impression did you get of his plans, of his goals are ani lamont-doherty, me, man, i learned from him. >> i learned from the other leaders it was clear to me that sinwar reflects the hamas gaza worldview sinwar told me clearly in 2004 that they would be ready to sign a hood. now, a truce for 20 years because the state of israel is currently a strong state. but he also told me that in 20 years, he estimates that we will be weakened because of internal struggles between us within israeli society. and as soon as they recognize that we are weak they will attack us and they also said clearly that we as jews, have no place on these lands under lands in which the state of israel is located. therefore, it's only a matter of time and timing that they will act against us and try to expel us from the place where we live. >> good luck. >> this is a worldview that they did not hide. he told me that explicitly but his way was much more extreme than others. his thought that this conflict can only be resolved by force. and the struggle of they are waging against us. the hamas is waging is a religious struggle. the war is a religious war. >> it is not a nationalist war. >> it is not about establishing a palestinian state alongside the state of visual it's all palestine you've now, he apparently according to israeli intelligence, i think sinwar is still somewhere in those tunnels in gaza. >> still apparently calling the shots nine months, eight months into this war when you think about his mental state now and who he is, the person you know what do you think he's thinking about ceasefire, about about anything about releasing the hostages that still remain sandoval who favor luck limb show sinwar's things only about the continuity of his role. he's going to sacrifice even 100,000 palestinians in order to ensure the survival of his rule. he is willing to pay with the lives of militants, hamas members, civilians. he doesn't care and therefore israel's mistake is that it did not create an alternative to hamas is raul and then replace hamas is rule and then allow an improved version. >> of the fattah or palestinian authority forces to enter in order to make clear to sinwar that he has lost everything. >> both his military capability but mostly his authority in gaza that would have caused sinwar to make a deal to return our hostages in exchange for prisoners today, he feels he's in a powerful position he is running the negotiations while still operating from within gaza still controls the areas from which the idf evacuated he also controls the humanitarian aid. and therefore, he feels strong and wold sign an agreement to release the hostages unless the idf withdraws from gaza. and the fighting ends early slogan me as we could particular you've, i'll be turned. >> thank you very much indeed for your information and your insights it is an extraordinary encounter, an extraordinary story. and up next on the program, the palestinian author, lawyer and human rights activist rajesh jay hard. it on missed opportunities for peace in the middle east. >> we'll be right back get back i voted buttons. i grabbed every little kid. >> why no, don keys or elephants scandals in ala thing says cell boy, it's like your generation has evolved past traditional political symbols. and there's room for every free one kind of like my podcasts on cnn. yeah. plus cans, puke rainbows, white, taken okay, everyone our mission is to provide complete balanced nutrition, are strength and energy ensure with 27 vitamins and minerals good transfer immune health, and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein we 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they have to live together and my father was adamant that they will have to live together and we have to find a way to live together. and i continued with that vision. but since october 7 has become much more difficult because humanize the person, it's such an extent that is difficult to imagine how we can make peace with them what does israel fear from palestine is available now and you can watch our longer conversation on my show on monday, which starts at 7:00 p.m. in central europe. that's what we have time for now. don't forget, you can find all of our shows online. there's podcast at cnn.com slash podcast, and on all other major platforms

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