most part i found it. >> i was totally zoned in that one pretty pretty quick. i felt towards the last hour or so that mr. steinglass couldn't move to the long and i didn't know if we needed like six book excerpts choice. choice xors. i think get less where the been a little more with that. but i think i think look on the defense and i think todd blanche rule was i heard the word meandering yeah, i certainly subscribe to that. >> i think he made a real legal and tactical mistake by diving into people's exhibits 35 and 36. the weisselberg notes, i think they are the smoking gun evidence and i think he dove into a minefield without a plan to get to get through it. >> do you think he should not have even brought those up? >> if anything? i wouldn't he like lead with it. right. >> that's not hit those documents are not his strong suit. and i anticipated and then i saw steinglass just went to town. he really he got to a plus on that bolt documents up you've got weisselberg's handwriting on the documents, laying out the scheme, the full hundred and $20,000 you got mcconney on a separate document number 36, with his handwriting parroting the same scheme and just so we have a trifecta on 35, you got cohen's handwriting tool and one thing that steinglass seemed to drill in on was he was seen to be making fun of todd blanche, that was kinda the tone that he tried to adopt the whole time, but he was saying this idea that todd blanche is arguing that because these documents exist, show no crime was committed here that no documents were falsified because you can see them. >> he was saying they're never be a business falsification case ever because you would just destroy them and if they existed, they would say, well, it's not a crime. and that was something he kinda he looked to the committee and said you almost have to the jury, said you almost have to laugh at the way mr. blanche explained it to you. >> you it's been in there every single day. you sit the same seat from people who don't know. everyone else has to fight for sap as is owed same seat which i'm obsessed with, but i'm wonder what you make of how that sat with the jury as they're watching this? >> what blanche then now steinglass kind of turned it around. >> oh, i think i think putting it all together. >> i think if it's a tennis match, i mean steinglass, just nail them. he put it over the net and killed it. and i think the jury, this is a smart jury. i mean, we all look at the same jury. we see the same jury. we were there for the norman and with f for the questioning of the jurors, these are people who want to be there. they could have just raise their hand if they didn't want to be there, they would have they would have left. they've been through the whole process today was day 21. that clearly paying attention this it was not over their head got this allen euro, a jury consultant. >> there's a lot of talk about the length of the closing arguments. have you ever come across jurors who were so annoyed about the duration that it actually impacted their votes i don't think it impacted their votes and i think since both sides, when excessively long with their closings, i think it's probably a draw in terms of which side seemed to be a little more tedious, a little more in the weeds, a little more on extraneous information that they didn't need. >> so i think each sayyed they did. okay. they did a good job, but they miss delivering stellar closing. it's not the defense, i think did what it had to raise some questions about fraudulent and ten on the part of trump regarding the invoices surrounding the payments, but they were a little gratuitous with some cheap shots and michael cohen and a little gimmicky prosecution i think was a little more streamlined. think they give a timeline laid out the elements and the actual verdict questions jurors are going to have, but the state also took a long time. so at this point it's about deliberation advocacy, and i would guess that of the 12 jurors maybe four of them are pretty firmly convinced of guilt or innocence. and then another far are leaning in one direction or the other. and then for our waiting for deliberations to make make a decision judge if if you can't reach a decision, if the deadlock there's something called an allen triage that the judge can give to the what what is that it's basically it's kinda like looking at you took an oath i believe in you you believe in me a nice way you like what did the thumbs is going to do it nicely? >> yeah. no. but but that's where you could do the allen charge. >> nice or you can do it rough i think what may very well get us to the verdict tea is i think my sean has a ton of goodwill with this jury, a ton one of goodwill with this jury. >> i think if for no other reason, then that can want to disappoint has been protecting the jury in the sense of like kind to them, we'd like to go long, but if any one of you has any issue, we won't do it and they didn't go long one day, but i'm very couldn't do it 100%. >> so he's got a lot of goodwill and the bench press or can i since you have the experience here, could you tell us what a missing witness charges because that is in the realm of possibilities. >> i don't think judge merchan has ruled publicly whether he's going to give him missing what is charged. but regarding weisselberg, yeah. just tell them what that means. that's a huge win for the defense. if he gives him his here's why i don't think they're going to give it because off could you just tell us what a bonus army it's gotta be a witness that's peculiarly peculiarly under the control of the people. so what that would typically mean someone's locked up, you're the defense attorney, you can't yet but they could get them merchan called that block. >> but over his defense said we're he would take the fifth if we call them, but the prosecutor could give him let me answer the question i was in the courtroom. >> norman was in the courtroom when that issue came up and michigan said, because it came up because i actually thought that the de was playing a little bit of a game with the exit agreement with the $2 that they want it to be able to get that in evidence. and then merchan said, well, did you try and get them yet, he asked them that question and then steinglass was kinda hemming in with that a little bit. so much. sean says okay, what about we bring them in? we bring weisselberg in outside the presence of the jury and we question them. blanche, without in a heartbeat jumped up he's not on the weightlessness list, judge. we're not ready for him. we don't ever so obvious he was he was objecting and i'm michele sun. and the way miss shawn does it, he looked at him and he said, oh so this is the first time you're considering that allen weisselberg might be a witness in this case after michigan did that. and it was obvious he could have brought them in if he wanted. he uninteresting and bring him in to try and say this is peculiarly under the control of the government. so you get that charge or charge author that's why don't see it neither. >> i mean, it's in that instance. neither side wanted whilst weisselberg to come in, not to mention the fact that even if whilst weisselberg were to testify, it's not clear that he would be a witness for the prosecution, and that is not clear. the fence information thanks. harp on the you don't want they don't want him to come in either summation, it's too late. i'd say like with weisselberg said writing is exhibit 35, judge. dreiser's really upset about this. it's all his head hi, folks. they have the bird. they did that with some other witnesses they made that point, right. blanche basically made that point on a number of occasions saying the prosecution they didn't bring in any lawmakers to talk about the impact of the access hollywood tape. they didn't bring in that person. they didn't bring in this person. they did it i've obliquely but they did not do it for weisselberg and i thought that was extremely notable the most ridiculous example of this was when the defense task, the prosecution with not bringing again, don junior eric, it was another one because they were all so people who sign is tired. >> and arthur, i can tell you, we're not getting a minute. missing witness instruction because we sat through at lengthy charging conference, it was not discussed. it's not in any of the submissions not happening. >> they didn't like okay. i got your request that we have an ultimate to trial groupies right here you've been like every emotion after it's the whole way arguing about lichens shakespeare would do it again sunday hours the one thing trump keeps talking about and he's complaining about tonight is that he can't use the reliance on council argument, which was something that was settled over six weeks ago when they were first making this call of saying he can't say that he was relying on legal advice of michael cohen when michael cohen told him the agreement was airtight and bullet the proof. and now he is increasingly angry about that and keeps bringing it up, even though the judge made clear during the jury instruction debate that i assume both of you were in last week? >> that was that was long gone. that was never even going to be an option here. >> well, it's such a bogus issue because pecker is already david pecker is already testified that he then provide the council with pertinent information. he just t-a take a look at this. none of the background information, none of the none of the things going on behind the scenes with campaign and money than not being reported. it's just like yeah, council look at it in half foul. yeah, this is good trump knows that trump's lawyers know that and they just wanted to try and muddy the waters with it, but it wasn't like they got it a legitimate opinion from the general count. i was general counsel for the police department for five years. you're going to ask me for an opinion, submit all the relevant relevant, pertinent information on. hold back information and then take my deputy commissioner of grasses opinion and then hold that up as a legal opinion because it's not and that's exactly the game they're trying to pull here. >> judge, if i can if i can ask you. do you see any potential appellate issue with the way the de has charged this case for the first time in new york history. they've essentially imported a federal campaign finance violation into a state charge. >> norman and i've been talking about this ad nauseum yeah. >> shocking while whenever the judge because i know are normal here where you come that well you know, i mean it still is i give the overall i give the de a very high marks. >> absence six book excerpts on this summation but it's still a little tricky to figure out how the i think as far as the false five business records, i think it's almost slam dunk right now that they've got trump pretty solid. i think that this summation for the de a buttoned up a lot of that but connecting that now, what are we connecting it to? how will we know there is a ton of evidence of testimony that this was all being done for the campaign you know, it's it's being covered up it was covered up the way it was covered up because it was an unreported campaign contribution. but how has that been imputed to trump yet, what is the actual i still have not seen the final charges to the jury. i'm going to be has a real nerd on this guy. i'm going to pay like zoning right in. i want to see where they're using willful what they're going to be using for stay the mine and whatever they use i think that this is definitely a potential point. a lot of appellate issues, a lot of cases that are overturned are overturned on the judge's charged to the jury. basically, you gave the rules of the game two the people deciding the game. inaccurately and you've been there every day you to say if the summations prosecutors have done a great job, but it's a little willy nilly on how they're going against that because he is a pause about whether this case should have been brought at all. well, you know what i think i disagree with you on that. we've had this conversation on your radio show every day, every day. >> i think it was there was something rotten in denmark that and i think there's a mountain of evidence that and i think that that the trump tower conspiracy meeting august of 2015, i think the defense summation felt really flat when they tried to say that like deaf david pecker had not no knowledge of what cachin killed because he then used the word there. it's hundred and 30,000, 3000015000030000. judge, that you let me finish. that was clearly that was clear. that was clearly directed towards the campaign. i always to me going there every day, you'd have to be deaf, dumb and blind, not to see that a minute. >> willy nilly when i'm talking like this, i can ride a bike willy nilly. i'm talking about in the context of what is the charge going to look like? >> how is the jury going to process it? and what is it going to look like on appeal? because there is some new ground being made. his question and all you years on the bench over a decade, did you ever have a charge that it was the first time ever you created the charge. it didn't exist anywhere else. i can give you the answer. the answer is no. well, i never had a guy who ran for president who thought that was a good idea to get some friends. >> the other a lot of money here. >> we know we have we have something here that never happened before with these laws when never used the way that we used before because they were never, at least from what i've seen, abused the way they were abused by this particular defendant. >> now, does that ultimately lead to a bulletproof a bullet verdict? if they do choose to find him guilty, we'll have to see. but i think the evidence was there to bring the case. i think the evidence is there that convict but we'll have to ultimately see if he's convicted, what the appellate division grass we got to go about to ask you, you've looked in the eyes of lotto jurors watching the jury's i'm sure you have. what do you make of how they've been paying attention? >> you're paying attention. >> i am i'm taking notes vigorously and it's so i'm always into the notes, but then i just like randomly look up and scan and these people are paying attention this series, whether you think naaman as smart and dedicated and focused a jury, as i've ever seen in over 30 years, but never sitting above the courtroom wearing the robe judge grass. oh, wow. so great to have you thank you so much as your as mine. tuerkheimer as well. thank you so much. appreciate it coming up next. john berman's back with more details from the trial transcript later how today's closing arguments landed with voters specifically enjoyed welcome people from both sides of the political spectrum. but we're talking are gary tuckman lives are special primetime coverage continues i'm getting vaccinated by ssrs, pneumococcal pneumonia vaccine because i'm at risk for pneumococcal pneumonia i already gotten pneumonia vaccine, but i'm asking about the added protection of krever, not 20. if you're 19 or older with certain chronic conditions like asthma, diabetes copd, or heart disease, or are 65 or older, you are at increased risk for pneumococcal pneumonia, prevnar 20 is approved in adults to help prevent infections from 20 strains of the bacteria that caused pneumococcal pneumonia in just one dose. don't get prevnar 20 if you've had a severe allergic reaction to the vaccine or its ingredients adults with weakened immune systems, nail well, the lower response to the vaccine. the most common side effects for pain and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, fatigue, headache, and joint pain. >> i want to be able to keep my plan plans. >> i don't want to risk ending up in the hospital with pneumococcal pneumonia. >> that's why i chose path. now to ask your doctor or pharmacist? about the pfizer vaccine for pneumococcal pneumonia looks like allergy season it back time to start saving on your prescriptions another good reason to check, good rx bus to credit. >> we know running a business takes everything you have and only a certain kind of leader has what it takes every new challenges years to solve. and there's no such thing as off the clock. you carry the weight of the problems, but your resolved never wavers. no one else can do to what you do. we know your drive. we know your determination. >> you've come far enough to know successes for those who take it. >> this due credit funding. what's next? >> do you like good, hard or soft? we had pretzels.com, freshly baked, hard and soft pretzels join over 212,000 happy customers already obsessed with are 45 chef crafted varieties and treat yourself or a loved one today, only at pretzels.com the bike riders lady. >> and i said no i like you guys urine a nice how mayes doublets did you want certain full moon now i don't want you to move. i'm gonna miss you so much. you realize we'll have internet waiting for us at the new place, right? oh, we know. we just like making a scene. transferring your services has never been easier. get connected on the day of your move with the xfinity app. can i sleep over at your new place? can katie sleep over tonight? sure, honey! this generation is so dramatic! move with xfinity. pressure, and improve heart-healthy rush to walmart and find total bce news night with abby phillip tonight at 10:00 a.m. on cnn because closing arguments once a longtime until just before apm, we're still waiting to get the final installment of the trial transcript, but what we've got is revealing enough, john berman is back with more details. what are you looking at? >> so danya perry, who represented michael cohen, was on a few minutes ago and she was saying that michael cohen actually counted the number of times that todd blanche the defense attorney, called him a liar. so did we the number we came up with and a glickman of my producer between calling michael cohen a liar that he was lying, he lied or just lie or perjury, 78 times, 78 times todd blanche said, in this is what one of the things that blanche said directly about michael cohen. he's literally like an mvp of liars. he lies constantly is lied to congress. he lied to prosecutors. he lied to his family, his business associates. he lied to his bosses. he lies to reporters. he likes to federal judges a little bit later, he said, it's like what people, when they talk about with athletes like michael jordan as the goat, tiger woods is the goat, tom brady as the goat. these athletes are the greatest all time, the best among their peers, michael cohen is the gloat. he's literally the greatest liar of all time. and then the prosecutor, josh psi-blast, later said, we didn't choose michael cohen to be our witness. we didn't pick him up at the witness store. the defendant chose michael cohen to be his fixer because he was willing to to lie and cheat on mr. trump's behalf in this case, there is literally a mountain of evidence corroborating testimony that tends to connect the defendant to this crime from pecker to hicks, to the defendant's own employees, to the documents that defendants don't tweets and rallies in his own words on that recorded conversation, the list goes on and on. it's difficult to conceive of a case with more corroboration than this one, i just want to point out both attorneys misuse the word literally. >> yes just it's just that we were talking beforehand if i should break up just a little pet peeve of it. another thing is todd blanche used the word michael cohen 251 time. >> so we mentioned michael cohen, 251 times. it is closings. he said president trump or defendant 235 times. so more cohen and trump, if you want to know what todd blanche, who he wants this case to be about, right there. >> you should never say the word defendant when you're a defense a