Transcripts For CNNW Fareed 20240703

This is cnn this is gps, the Global Public square. Welcome to all of you in the United States and around the world. Im Fareed Zakaria coming to you from new york today on the program is rarely tags deeper into rafah whilst ceasefire talks stall and Russian Troops advance shorts kharkiv in the new offensive i will talk about the state of both wars with General David Portrays who has been described as the most the effective American Military commander since eisenhower then the sixweek long election in the World Largest democracy will soon draw to a close and indias Prime Minister modi has perhaps on the brink of winning or third term but what is his record on the economy and what about fears of democratic dk ill ask the former head of Indias Central Bank and at a time when journalists across the globe are under siege, im joined by Pulitzer Prize winner Nick Christophe. In decades of reporting, hes witnessed the aston worst humanity has to offer ill ask him why he remains stubbornly hopeful but first heres my tick something very unusual is happening in israel. Senior military officials have begun voicing criticism of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahus conduct of the war in gaza its media has been reporting on a weekend Security Meeting at which the Chief Of Staff of the Israel Defense forces, general herzi halevi criticized netanyahus lack of a Clear Strategy pointing out that the Israeli Military had reentered Northern Gaza an area it claimed to have cleared in january. He warned that unless there was a plan to set up some kind of non hamas government in these areas. The idf would have to keep repeating these kinds of operations endlessly. Israels defense minister yoav gallant, has gone further publicly criticizing the Prime Minister, pointing out that the day after hamas will only be achieved by actors who replaced hamas and declaring that he would not permit israel to try to govern gaza directly the New York Times reported on others within the Israeli Military making similar criticisms as Essential Pfeffer Rights and haaretz, these briefings to the press have been synchronized as part as what can only be a coordinated briefing against the Prime Minister the reason for these extraordinary dissents at a time of war is that israeli officials have begun to realize what american officials have been warning them about four months. That without a strategy to create stable governance in gaza they will face a continuing insurgency. Just as the us stayed in afghanistan and iraq. There is evidence it is already happening. Israeli forces have been forced back into jabalya twice, and they have returned three times. Two they two there recent and controversial raid on the alshifa hospital was the second effort showing that the initial success was not lasting. There was us Secretary Of State Antony Blinken noted last sunday, weve seen in areas that israel has cleared in the north, even in khan younis, hamas coming back, much has been written about whether the Israeli Military is being careful or callous, and its concern for civilian casualties when conducting its attacks in gaza. But the larger point has to do with its Counterinsurgenc Y Strategy itself in americas only successful Counterinsurgen Cy campaign in recent memory the surge in iraq. Its strategy was designed to protect the Civilian Population isolate the insurgence, and then crushed them to that end. General David Petraeus work tirelessly with iraq, sydneys, the community spawning the insurgency to win them over, give them a stake in iraqs government, and thus isolate the insurgents and the malicious he then use lethal force against those issues. This is almost the inverse of israel strategy, which has been first and foremost, to go after hamas, guns blazing with very little regard for winning the hearts and minds of gazas Civilian Population. Prime minister netanyahus argument against postwar plans and operations is that the war isnt over. And in his words, there is no alternative to military victory. The attempt to bypass it with this or that claim is simply detached from reality bibi has repeatedly said that he would continue the war until he achieves total victory, by which she presumably means either a surrender by hamas or its total eradication the Biden Administration has from early on in the war believed that bb strategy was flawed because there was no way to defeat hamas militarily without a political strategy to isolate it and offer an alternative that had some credibility and legitimacy that was why the Biden Administration wanted to begin discussions with the Palestinian Authority and a group of arab states like egypt and saudi arabia to make plans for reconstruction and governance in a non hamas Gaza Netanyahu has refused to consider any such plans Bibi Netanyahu refuses to talk about the postwar because he knows that his own postwar future is bleak many israelis continued to hold him responsible for the policies that led to the october 7 attack when new elections to be called, he would likely lose office, then face an ongoing prosecution, as well as potential inquiries about the failures that led to october 7, all of this can be pushed off as long as he insists on hamas surrender, which he will not get, but which will keep the world going on in it is a strategy not designed to secure israels future, but rather his own goh to cnn. Com slash fareed for link to my Washington Post column this week and lets get started so you heard what i had to say what does a better war strategy for his were look like joining me now is former cia director and retired Us Army General david portrays whom i mentioned in my take he commanded american and Coalition Troops both in iraq and afghanistan david, welcome first, let me ask you to explain what was the heart of your strategy in iraq which worked you were battling an insurgency, a bunch of Terrorists Militias Column what you will, and you lets had not been able to really eradicate those terrorists. What did you do well, first and foremost, we committed to making life better for innocent iraqi civilians. And we pledged that we would get alqaeda in Extremist Group irreconcilable similar to hamas. Out of their midst, we would clear their neighborhoods, their cities of alqaeda. And then we would keep them out of those cities and neighborhoods would create gated communities. 12 of them alone and felicia, which has already completely the encircled by cement to keep them out. And then you have biometric id cards. We would flood the area immediately with humanitarian assistance, then Restore Basic services than goh about the comprehensive reconstruction. Rebuilding all of the damaged infrastructure, restoring schools, markets clinics, bridges, roads that had been blown up by alqaeda end by the other of the most Dangerous Suni in groups. And then keep the pressure on those groups constantly going after them after having cleared comprehensively from the populated areas. But the key was the hold and the build. Were seeing in gaza the clearing. The problem is if you dont hold, again, keep the people separate from in this case, hamas, which is again an Extremist Group akin to the islamic state. Its irreconcilable. But if you dont separate them from the population and keep them separate you only have to go back and re clear because Extremist Groups, if theyre not kept out, well reconstitute. We saw it ultimately at the end of the threeandahalf year period after the surge which drove violence down by nearly 90 . And it continued to go down even as we drew down in the subsequent threeandahalf years until their withdrawal of our final combat forces and Prime Minister molecule taking highly sectarian actions that took a Security Forces eyes off the islamic state. They were able to reconstitute and of course, within two years the first ever islamist Extremist Caliphate in northern iraq, in northeastern syria look, i want to see israel succeed. I believe hamas does need to be destroyed. What they did on october 7 was absolutely barbaric and horrific and unspeakable and its an example that youve got to get them out of control of the people and out of the governance of gaza. And obviously there has to be then some kind of vision for what the future will be in. Of course, its interesting to see the Minister Of Defense yoav gallant. And then also the Chief Of Staff of the Israeli Defense forces calling for the establishment of a vision for a midterm and then longer because if you dont know where youre going as they say, any road will take you there when you were doing the surgery, seemed to meet the most important piece or a very important piece was the outreach you made to the broader population, to the sunni leaders the insurgency was a sunni insurgency and you basically youve had more and more troops. You had, you had a military strategy, but you also add a political strategy of reconciliation, right . Very much so. So again, reach it out to the sunnis and saying, look, your lives have not been particularly good with alqaeda. And the sunni insurgents in your midst and in your neighborhoods, in your midst and in your neighborhoods. Were going to help you get them out at the very least, dont oppose us at the very best. Lets reconcile. We ultimately reconciled with as many as 80,000 former sunni insurgents and others. Many of them just in the wrong place at the wrong time and trying to survive. And then we did the same actually with the Shia Militias supported by iran about 23 thousand of them. We did it initially directly with them. Eventually we were able to hand it off and get the Iraqi Government to embrace that as well. I do think it is an example for this situation, noting, by the way, that fallujah ramadi, mosul by cuba and baghdad altogether our context in gaza where you have 350 miles of subterranean infrastructure very wellorganized enemy knows the neighborhoods really well, uses civilians as human shields. And of course as still 100 plus hostages. In addition to a variety of other factors, this is the most fiendishly difficult context imaginable, but it is doable dave i think ive visited you first when you were a twostar in mosul and you were beginning to implement some of your counterinsurgency ideas and correct me if im wrong, but i col. Seeing a sign in your in your office which said have our Actions Create they created more terrorists than we have killed or Something Like that isnt that a plug for sure whether really sorry. Right. Isnt that applicable today absolutely. There were two signs, actually, one was what have we done for the iraqi people today. And then the second was will this Operation Take more bad guys off the street than it creates by its conduct. If the answer to that is no. In other words, youre not going to take more often you create, your supposed to retool the operation and figure out how to get to yes. Without which you go sit under a tree until the thought passes. So how you carry this out matters enormously. Youve got to demonstrate your concern for the people. And this is why i mentioned up front than it would be very helpful if the israeli leadership but the very top would say we want to make their life better, knowing that because of the trauma that has been inflicted on the israeli people, keep in mind, wed lost not quite 3,000 in the nine 11 attacks. This would be the equivalent for us. So having lost 42,000 plus 7,000 taken hostage and im not sure ive been in israel just recently. And that sense of trauma is much, much more palpable than it is from a far. So youve got to keep that in mind nonetheless, if theres not the kind of commitment to the innocent civilians in gaza than this just is not going to work stay with us next on gps general petraeus and i will talk about the new russian offensive in ukraine and whether Ukrainian Forces can hold their fight russia is were trying to spy on us. We were spying on them this is a secret, war. 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Com today for up to 70 off designer brands, it has the designers that get your heart racing had inside a prices new every day, hurry. Therell be gone in a Flash Designer Sales at up to 70 or so of guilt. Com today these cnns Breaking News hello everyone has the brca whitfield in atlanta. Well get back to Fareed Zakaria gps in a moment. But first weve got Breaking News for you. Irans president Ebrahim Raisi has been involved in a Helicopter Crash in a remote part of the country grave iran, cnns Nic Robertson is following the developments for us. Nick, what moria learning yeah. Officials are telling people in iran to pray for the president and the other people like the Foreign Minister and other top dignitaries who run the helicopter with him. That and of itself is not a good sign, but i think an even more worrying sign for the government as they have not hello, announce so far that theyve managed to locate the side of the Helicopter Crash. They say there is dense fog in the mountains. It is dark in these mountains, right in the very northwest of iran theyve got Search Parties on the ground. Teams of ambulances, medics, even mountaineers, are working with them to try to look okay. The helicopters are army are involved, the irgc, the elite military unit, and iran has involved a police are all involved, but were being told that the ground is so saturated that vehicles are finally get diff, difficult to move in the high mountains the temperature is dropping. The conditions are too bad. They say the helicopters to be put up to aid and assist in the search. So at the moment this looks like again remembering that the iranians dont tend to put everything in the Public Domain that they know. But as far as we can tell at the moment from what the Iranian State media is saying and what officials are announcing in iran as they have not located the crash site. They dont know the condition of the president and the other people on board. But what we do know about his day was had gone up there right into the very northwest of iran, East Azerbaijan province, right on the border with the country azerbaijan to inaugurate a new dam project. It was a big deal. I mean, thats why the president was there and he met with the president of azerbaijan at this inauguration for the why the helicopters went into the mountains with this dense fog isnt clear, but the search is still going on at the moment were looking at some images right now. A neck. Is it your understanding that these are the most recent images of the president s visit in azerbaijan yeah, the state media obviously covers pretty much when the president does a big, big trip way this to state media is all over it. So his helicopter flight into that inauguration, the meetings on the ground, the handshakes the meetings in the terrain that they were flying over all of that was sort of broadcast in advance of when the president got on the helicopter to meet what we understand, what have been the return journey back towards the capital. So this is, this is the most recent images that we have, and they are quite literally in the hours before this Helicopter Crash happened in these images, youre seeing, he was not traveling alone included on the aircraft was the Foreign Minister and other dignitaries representation the iranian government absolutely the provincial governor of East Azerbaijan province in those images there as well, you saw eelam lif, the the president of azerbaijan, but you had senior clerics on board that that helicopter, the top mr. Me, if you will for East Azerbaijan province as on board, it was this was for the government, this was, this was a big deal of Water Projects or this was something that they really wanted to get kudos from the, from the, from the public, from they wanted to put their stamp on it, if you will thats why theyre president and thats where these dignitaries within the Foreign Minister would have been there because this was a chad project being right on the border with azerbaijan very important these countries dont always have the best of relations, but in this particular case this was, this was something that was improving that all right. Nic robertson. Thank you so much. Well continue to check in with you. And of course, well have much more on this Breaking News as we learn it. Im figuring get whitfield, jake tapper, and State Of The Union is back in a moment these days, Everyone Staring at screens am watching their spending good vision is more important than ever. 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But all is not well, a country of 1. 4 billion is plagued by Joblessness Unemployment was 8. 1 in april, but that only measures people who are actively looking for jobs only 37. 6 of the working age population is gainfully employed. To talk about all this and more, i want to bring in my next guest, Raghuram Rajan he was the head of Indias Central Bank from 2013 to 2016 he is currently a professor of finance at the university of chicagos booth school of business. And he is the coauthor of a new book, breaking the mold. Indias untroubled path to prosperity. I began by asking him about indias jobs crisis and the effect its having on the economy even do indias has strong growth, its the Fastest Growing country in the g20. Its also the poorest country, and its a country which is getting what is called the Population Dividend, young people are coming into the labor force in massive quantities. We could employ them. India would grow much faster. This is what happened to china what happened to korea in the period of strong growth. So this is a very important point. What youre saying, given how poor ndas and theres about 2,700 per capita income, right . Average income its the poorest and the g 2,066. 5 growth sounds impressive, but china is growing at ten, korea was growing at ten. Taiwan was growing at ten at that stage and develop exactly. So relative to the rich countries will look really good. Also, we have a large population, so we are overtaking countries in terms of overall gdp. Weve just overtaken the uk, india, the fifth largest economy soon stagnant. Japan and germany in there will overtake, will be the Third Largest economy but the real issue is can indians become rich . Before india grows old . Because at some point, this Population Dividend the young people entering the labor force, were going to have far fewer of them in there, doesnt have a lot of immigration. And so the indian population will age. Youre already seeing it in the south and the west with which are the richer parts of india. And so the point is by 2047, 25th were going to start growing gold. Are we going to be rich by then, not at 66. 5 growth. Now, a lot of people who, who think the Indian Economy is going gangbusters say you have to give modi credit. Bodhi is decisive hes strong, hes pushed through lots of things whats your overall assessment of modi . Well, i think where you needed more sort of pushing government that maybe thats the right way to say it. Things have gotten done infrastructure is one earlier held up by niceties like environmental permissions those are good. But if you want roads to be barreled, railways to be built, that coordination, centralized coordination happens. Well with a more authority or in government, which is what the Modi Government is the problem, however, is that if youre focused on creative services, you want the higher end of the supply chain, not the bottom of the supply chain you need to create a freer environment for innovation, for debate four arguments you cant sort of suppress protest in universities. Part of protesters protesting the establishment view, which creates new ideas or independent media which are independent media, for example, if youre going along a new path, you have to know where youre going wrong a recent government report on the economy doesnt actually mention the word unemployment. Though again and again, you hear from the public, this is the Biggest Issue on the table. So for example, the government of Madhya Pradesh advice advertised 6,000 jobs as a revenue collector, lowlevel jobs we had 1. 2 million applications for that of which 100,000 or mbas 100,000 were engineers i think thats thats basically saying we have a real problem. But the government is not in a sense acknowledging that. What about the issue of modis Hindu Nationalism . The issue of minorities in the Urine Economists would do if you have, you have talked about this, but its a huge worry. Its a huge worry because no country has ever succeeded by treating a large part of its population as secondclass citizens, they should have even if they are being treated badly, they should have the sense of progress things are Getting Better you cannot reverse the environment of equality which india has enjoyed since independence. And then convert a whole population of clues lets do 15 of the country, which is 200 Million People into secondclass citizens. And to my mind, the rhetoric that is going on the kind of actions that certain bjp governments are taking is sending a very strong signal to our muslim minorities, but also to some extent some other minor artists. And i think we really absolutely dont need that our Founding Fathers put together a constitution which really emphasized equality of everyone and took into account some of the fragilities that emerge post partition i think what emerged was a constitution, which one has to be proud of it again, again, you will hear government minister saying, we believe in the constitution. But fundamental part of believing in the constitution is this equality what do you think if you had a Magic Wand India moving forward . What would you do that you think could get india from the 6 growth to two 10 where it really does become the next china immediately, i think the key issue is jobs. How do you create jobs that will enhance india as it goes forward . So for example a lot of people have the basic understanding, but they dont have the final skills. Can you scale them up so that they become employable and that may not take a lot of doing that may require an apprenticeship with an industry which is willing to teach them. We need to make all those things possible. So thats one level another level is lots of Young Mothers. Indias female Labor Force Participation is low. You, a lot of Young Mothers in villages. Can you bring some of them into the child crashes so that they can teach the kids and also get employment in that process. Those are at the low end and then theres at the higher end. We dont have a Single University in the top hundred. But if you put all the diaspora together we can populate many universities with professors of the highest caliber who are sitting across the world. Can we get a few of them back to populate new . Who universities, which will give the oxfords and the yields and the harvards competition, maybe not immediately, but over time, you optimistic overall i, think india always surprises you in the intelligence of its electric and write from the first elections in the 1950, when in the early 1950s, when we thought how can an illiterate largely illiterate population deliver good results . I think again and again, weve been surprised by the maturity of the indian electorate. Im hopeful that we will see good, good results from their thinking pleasure to have you on Raghuram Rajan next on gps, i will talk to the Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Nick Christophe about his decades of reporting on the front lines from t animal squared, two our for tobacco ill ask him why he says journalism is an act of hope when we come back more than 500 million in art stolen they saw what turned out to be the biggest archivist in history. You cant help but wonder if this was some sort of fee inside job how would rule pretty happy with jesse l. Martin tonight at nine on cnn to get the full story, Be Unafraid The Wheel to fight. How important is that a true . Is israel in full control of its territory . Tori and go with a search for answers, takes you, Anderson Cooper three, 60 weeknight today erin burnett outfront, week nights at seven odd cnn from roger to we there yet so many ways fate, life ready, while it happy thats three, by Whole Foods Market, the all new temper padic Adapt Mattress was designed to help me aches and pains. A thing of the past because only temper material eases your Pressure Points in a way no other mattress can for a limited time save up to 500 on select temper padic Adjustable Mattress sets. Theres Nothing Better than a subway series footlong except we add on all new footlong zach kick. Were talking about 2 footlong to row 3 Footlong Pretzel kind of 5 footlong cookie. 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I exam when you buy two pairs of glasses for justice 79, 95, book an exam online today shop etsy until june 16, and get up to 30 off fathers day gifts that go beyond the classic goto save on personalized gear and other things. Dads do when you want a oneofakind gift to shown, hes number one at c, has it . Hey, there, brenda. Its carroll exactly. So which like every operating on you mean arm its all connected asking the right question can greatly impact your future. You share your an orthopedist. Actually, im a sagittarius especially when it comes to your finances give a question. Are you a certified Financial Planner . Yes. Im a Cfp Professional Cop Professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. Thats why its gotta be a cfb bind your Cfp Professional, and lets make the planned out or how solomon in new york and this is cnn most peoples careers do not include surviving a plane crash in the congolese jungle, coming facetoface with gunman in Accra Dodging Bullets and tiananmen square, or interviewing deaf furies, Fleeing Genocide my next guest and all that and more. And yet, somehow he remains an Optimist Nyc Kristof is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and opinion columnist for the New York Times hes written a wonderful memoir called chasing hope full of exhilarating and harrowing stories from his years of reporting nick workup. Great to be with you. Youve tended to really not shy away from going into the worst places, the most dangerous places much more than other reporters and particularly much more than famous Opinion Columns which you now are why do you do it . I mean, if you do actually ask yourself deep inside, whats, whats the adrenals high . No, i dont think so. When im in these places, i spend much of my time with my stomach does clenched in fear, but i do think that that is where we have influences journalists that when i write about gaza, frankly, or guns or abortion, or President Trump or whatever, i dont think i really changed minds. People who start at agreeing with me hey, thank just right. People who disagree think wrong, but i think where we as journalists do have a real power is to project an issue onto the agenda and make people spill their coffee and that is the reason why i just proportionately tried to take issues that arent getting attention and help cover them and get them on the agenda as a first step toward seeing some progress when you went into four i mean, this is one of the worst episodes just in terms of the brutality and the hopelessness when you would be there, did you feel sometimes like you were abandoning the people when you would leave to do how did you think about the fact that you had witnessed this this horrible stuff youd lived with it and then you are going to go back to a very comfortable life in new york absolutely. And i mean, i remember in particular one being in one village that was about to be attacked and everybody had left, including the police and anybody who was able bodied leaving only those who were infirm or injured and they were waiting to be killed. And i kept my vehicle with the engine running, pointed out ready to flee immediately if the Janjaweed Militia showed up and i interviewed as many as i could. And then drove off, knowing these people are gonna be massacre these justice just nausea, you and when its not just are fewer, i mean, the end mar the rohinyga so many places, we as journalists have this privilege and we go in. And even when were there, frankly, a blue passport as a certain amount of protection and people that we are interviewing have none of that. Youve got the Pulitzer Prize for your dog for reporting. Do you actually your columns, but there were highly reported. Do you think it made a difference on the ground absolutely. I indoor forward, there were hundreds of thousands of people who were killed vast numbers, raped. But because of the work of high school and College Students and synagogues and churches and mosques and nonprofits. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are alive today. Indoor four next door in chad because even though its a remote place, even though it was already sanctioned, even though it was getting weapons from china, its still raise the cost of mass atrocity. I think a few as particularly influential when i think of one story ive heard and i wonder what you think it is a column of yours that bill gates read that made him decide the central purpose of the gates foundation, which was going to be to help the poorest people in the world survive, not have to not die when i go off and do my reporting, it feels like im don quixote Tilting At Windmills and that theres a twopart series about Global Health and it didnt frankly have much of an impact, except for two years since the apple bill and melinda gates. And it is a reminder that you tilted Nefise Windmills and occasionally that one and that ultimately is the source of your optimism its two things for read. One we dont in journalism, we cover the planes that crash, not the planes that land, but there are a lot of planes. Theyre landing and in the years and decades that ive been covering these issues, weve seen vast improvements in global literacy. Weve seen Child Mortality plunge. Weve seen global poverty plunge, and the events look bad, but the trends and the trends are good and most of that events are bad. Most of the trends youre good. And thats part of and i think the other is that when i go too dark for elsewhere, so i encounter warlords who exemplify the Human Capacity for evil, but sidebyside with the worst of humanity you would invariably see the very best. And these just heroic individuals who went stressed underscore the Human Capacity for strength resilience, decency, courage and so its possible to come back from these places actually feeling better about Humanity Next on gps, nick kristof got his first prize for hovering the tiana and square massacre in 1989. I want to talk to him about china. When we come back chasing life for dr. Sanjay gupta, listen wherever you get your podcasts, what does it mean to be outfront . Its going there. We arent just about three miles from the gaza border its finding out something unexpected. I relish all of our conversations, its context. The economy is by far the top issue for americans and this election curiosity someone else de, to jump in the race and devolve all. Its about sharing that so you can be out front two. Lets go out front. Erin burnett front week nights, its seven on cnn. Heres to Getting Better with age heres the beaten these two every thursday helped fuel today with boost type protein, complete nutrition, you need without the stuff you dont. So heres two now water would help with this dry spots. Thats long Disease Scotts Healthy Plus Will Cure Lung Disease going around. 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You covered it when it went through the tanno Square Massacres and there was a long period and tell me if you agree with this way, china really was opening up in every sense, the average chinese person had more and more freedoms that were living where they wanted, they were working, where they wanted. They were often saying what they wanted, particularly privately, i often had people criticize the government and they couldnt care that i was a reporter thats also all right. There was a kind of opening up that bin reversed. Yeah. I mean, we had a view, i think that economic openness would lead to political openness and the internet would drive this change in that turned out not to be true but i do i spent so much of my career covering these Democracy Movements in places like taiwan, south korea, indonesia even poland at the beginning of my career. And i do think that when societies become more educated, become more globally connected. With just more of a middleclass, then there is some pressure for greater political purges mr. Patient and xi jinping is able to push back at that so it was let me get away it is precisely because he saw this openness and he saw this the middleclass is desire for freedom in the way they wanted it in taiwan, in the way they wanted it in korea, that he pushed back. And of course those regimes had also pushed back they were just not successful. Eventually, thats right. And i think at some point, i mean, it may not be xi jinping and maybe the next leader, but its hard to predict the timescale. But i think that theyre that change will come. And i remember one time i was in beijing and i just been denounced those after the massacre in june 4, 1989. I just been denounced by National Television then for fabricating things and they were Denouncing Democracy Activists as hoodlums. When those little sichuan restaurant who was empty, the waitresses were eyeing me and looked at me suspiciously and i thought now maybe theyre going to poison my food or something and they came over and they said, are you that reporter who lies . They talked about in a television i kinda braced myself and said, well, but they said they beamed and said, never mind, you dont need to pay your bill. Were all hoodlums here and there are a lot of folks like that who arent necessarily particularly political, but they want a little more autonomy over their lives. Theyre frustrated by the corruption. Theyre frustrated by the economic mismanagement by the covid, mismanagement i think that that is one reason, as you suggest, that is driving the authoritarianism and trying to, to try to suppress that. What do you think of the almost bipartisan view in, in washington now, that china is the greater threat, we have to do everything we can to, to, to combat it. So i along with almost everybody else has soured to some degree about china. And i think a lot of my neighbors in oregon have died from fentanyl for example, i think that was an issue that didnt get enough attention. Chinas Export A Fentanyl precursors but having said that, i also fear that theres a fine line between deterring china and provoking china and i dont know that we get that line always, right communism is kind of gone, does not ecology and theyve tried to use nationalism as the new unifying ideology. With some success. And unless were very, very careful in our policy, we risk inflaming that nationalism and creating that is the new bedrock for the party and i have no sympathy whatsoever for xi jinping. I mean, what hes done, jeanjacques is brutal, but hes done domestically to dissidence i worry about his aggressive actions and taiwan and the south china sea, but i want to make sure that our policies reduce the risk of conflict rather than unintentionally aggravating it nick kristof always a pleasure. Listen. To you and the book chasing hope. A reporters life. Absolutely wonderful. Its just full of great stories. Thank you so much for read and thanks to all of you for being part of my program this week. I will see you next week the assignments are going off and playing the tornado here im thinking, im going to die. And i thought violent earth with the Liev Schreiber premieres june 2 at nine on cnn weeknight. Sit eight tonight are three, 60 new reporting to get the full story well to fight. How important is that the unafraid you have reasonable grounds to believe that alleged war crimes have been committed have compassion. 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