New york are continuing to monitor gentlemans out of The Middle East where were learning more about the Ceasefire Proposal that hamas, except in israel, rejected today and is really strikes on Southern Gaza. There are raising new questions about whether these limited operations will grow into a full fledged invasion of raffa, which Binding Ministration has been warning against for weeks. We begin the hour right now today, 12 and the Trump Hush Money Trial And Judges Second Contempt Finding against the former president today in his warning that a third could mean jail time that im is calling two longtime trump employees as they try to show exactly how Michael Cohen was repaid by trumps trust and personal accounts in 2017 after he paid hush money to Stormy Daniels back with the panel joining us as well as harry lipman, who was in court todays and la times Legal Affairs columnist, host of the talking feds podcast, and former Deputy Assistant attorney general. Im wondering what you observed as judge Merchan Warren Trump about potential jail time. It was really sort of jaw dropping. Weve been having different judges in different courts kind of wag their fingers, but he looked directly at trump softspoken, but very firm. Mr. Trump . You are out of rope and it was really the sort of statement weve been waiting for, for a year next time, youre done and its sensible in a way because with only 1,000 to work with for other violations, why why should he did all around . But he said next time thats it. And he really means that it has credibility would be on the line as well as the integrity of the judicial system. It was a dramatic moment for geoff made the point in the last hour, which i think is very correct that trump actually has been abiding by the gag order since the violations, which has now been punished for i think thats right. He seemed sort of solid at it, angry and he has been at least trying to skate around it. And now were talking about jayyab. Theres a lot of discussion. Would he like it quixotic lee for political reasons . But jail, not fun for, you know, just, just imagine sort of know, hairdressers the whole did he say did he say next time is it or did he imply that somewhere in between . So what he said is necessary and appropriate, which of course you say, but what was really striking about it was the direct address to trump. I havent heard that before and weve been waiting. He really said, next time its like a border leyen of a directive and begging him, like hes the joint because as i said earlier, i think you did a great job. The judge is like, dont do this. Like i dont want to do this like dont make me do this, dont put me in this position. To Trial Transcripts. I have it right here, actually, because he he said this is a last resort measure for him that he doesnt not want to have to do this, which i think is important to emphasize because im sure trumps allies have been taking the judge and saying hes being treated unfairly. He said, yeah, youre the former president of the united states, possibly the next is well, he said there are many reasons why incarceration is truly a last resort for me. And he said to take that step would one disrupt these proceedings, which i imagine, you want to end as quickly as possible, speaking directly to trump, he said, i also worry about the people who would have to execute that sanction. The court officers, the correction officers, the Secret Service detail, right. Among others, he basically is talking about how involved it would be to actually take this action. But i think the other thing to remember when it comes to last resort, trump is violated. This ten times. I mean, would any other defendant be able to violate a gag order ten times and only really not were not going doesnt go to 11. Yeah. But on an e felony, which is the lowest felon for a man whos 77 years old, whos never been in trouble in his life, take out the whole prejudice an average 77 year old. He has a huge platform though, to go after these witnesses and to talk about these jurors. Thats exactly why he he was being found. Caitlin, you brought up a point though and i think a lot of even the future, the present and the future, it depends on the degree of violation. So if tomorrow he comes out there and says someone should take out Michael Cohen. I think donald trump will be put in jail immediately if he says, i still dont feel like im getting a fair trial from these jurors. I dont know if the judge would say yes, its a violation, but im not putting you in jail for that so i might have to graduate. I disagree about i think theres no more room to say violation, but youre okay. He might he might really try to keep from finding a violation, but if he does, i think no more room, but i do think that what he did today in addition to the comments there were four things on his desk that could potentially be violations. He didnt say that all of them were and some of them involve comments about witnesses like Michael Cohen and others. And so i think the judge actually by doing both things at the same time, was basically saying, look there are lines here. I think the jury is aligned for him and rightfully so the jury is their regular people. Trump aligning them to kaitlan point on his massive platform is a huge problem. We know that there are consequences of that, but the judge seem to at least in this latest tranche say okay, well, him calling a witness. Nice. That doesnt quite count. Hes drawing some lines there and saying that there are degrees to this and hes not willing to just say everything in this category is a violation when it may not be there are other costs to donald trump here. Real costs to irritating the dej to pushing the judges patients. Number one, if donald trump gets convicted this is the guy whos sentencing him. Lets keep that in mind. The sentence here will be, of course, up to the judge, and this will be a close call. I mean, if you look at class ii felonies, the lowest level of felony, most of them result in probation and finds not prison time, but some do. And the judge would be well within his rights to say, im going to take into account the fact that you violated my order ten times the second cost is team has his lawyers are flying blind here. They dont know whos coming tomorrow because they asked for that. They judge, wed like to know at one point, todd bland said, i promise you, i will prevent him from tweeting and the judge says, i dont think you can make that promise. And so normally a defense would certainly know the night before whos coming tomorrow instead, they dont know if theyre gonna be crossexamined. Reading is actually hurt his case. Yes intangible ways. So maybe hes taking that and look if hes selfinterested, which is dont know if hes rational, but hes selfinterested. You should be taking that. Theyre finding out the de, but theyre finding out very close they were complaining that they found out very very late yesterday, who the first witness would be today. They said the same thing about david pecker when he first testified that they are getting a pretty they say its too short of a notice well, just so were clear, they know the universe of potential witnesses. The government is required by law to produce the universe. So theyre not picking names out of hats, but the order in in which theyre called is as a courtesy, is different thats the pair for any lins. The evidence de because you were you were very struck. I heard you say by the alawites tilburg nodes. On a document, lets put the documented. We showed this in the last hour. Why why was this such an important piece of evidence . Two reasons i think the first is it corroborates what cohen has been saying for years, including in front of congress all the way down to the actual kind of calculation. How do you get from one 30 to the other thing is the idea that this was a scam. Michael cohen was, was executing on on donald trump, jacking up this price and trump was ignorant of it. This shows at least an hour and Yslow Bernick was working out exactly what the figure would, but thats the second point. It obliterates any argument which you could have had after say hope hicks, that this was somehow cohen acting on his own. This is why so berg, above him and they are doing it together. All you can now say hey its i always useful to think about what therell be able to i mean, if anybody knows who otherwise, ill burger is if yslow berg is doing it, it means its being done with trumps approval. The only sliver is somehow hes the jury doesnt necessarily get well, the jury believed that without always were testifying, who who convinces the droughts have a really important point. I think its the one thing, the one hole in whats otherwise 360 Degree Coverage and what cohen has to say is this conversation, but you need a reason theres no count. How could why berg and cohen somehow be freelancing in this sense when everything weve heard about trump is what a micromanager terry is on the lights, but at least it it says no no more argument that is cohen on his own as hope hicks sort of suggested on a simple question i have today, explain what that 50,000 services i mean, its a big number. It is. And well, what what conus said is its a separate payment for some kind of technology kind of service chris, that he had done before. Some people are whispering, maybe its another kind of campaign thing, but i think its just another payment he made a few months previous slide. Theres also a 60,000 quoteunquote bonus. So thats what its a bonus. Thats what they call. Im just curious what that 50 grand is because thats a big number for this analogy, services is when the pay off the Hush Money Pay off is 130,000 and then you have this other 50 on top of enabled. You guys might get all confusing for those jurors. But remember you also had a witness today who said that donald trump is perfectly capable and sometimes did not signed checks. So he obviously could have said to all the it wasnt just one check. It was it was i think 11 different checks reimbursing khan, he could have said, what is this . Why am i paying this right . That document answers the question of why he was paying it is although remember also earlier on poland complaints to pecker. Hes not paying me something kind of happen that made trumps so complying here and they version will come with colin and also the question, why was it not a one for one payoff . Why was it not just the entire amount that they just paid all of that . Why did they instead do it . And those monthly installments, i havent seen any explanation of that from the trump team. Just to look look Like Legal Services hes saying are we give you 35,000 to do Legal Services that youre not providing. One thing i was really struck by last week in the courtroom was just watching the jury was how closely they are following everything. I mean, pretty much everybody in that jury box when i was there was watching and listening very intently. So when were taking notes, but everybody was that the way it was really agree in today was kind of, you could say a slog of de you could say nuts and bolts stay, but it wouldve been a day that a lot of jurors would have phased out. They were they were attentive. They werent like wrapped and taking up, but they were attentive even through the afternoon i think the idea that as the controller said, donald trump basically almost fired him for paying what i mean the implication is that donald trump actually owed this money, but he was like, i need you to make it a smaller number all right. That is in your photo what does that mean is not paying and people dipping them and being like, oh yeah, what are you going to do . His attorneys now demand Retainer Fees is largest part because there werent chris kaiser works from are now got 5 million upfront before he did any legal one hour away and its amazing in a way that Michael Cohen actually was paid because donald trump, just typically, whether it is legitimately owed are not typically does not want to pay what is owed, let alone three times, right . Remember that he wanted to go into past the election is then he wouldnt have to pair. But somehow 12 checks, nine and then signed by him. Theres a little more to this story. He didnt pay Rudy Giuliani. Rudy giuliani went to him to seek help for his own legal expenses. He would not pay him because he claimed that he said that lawsuits in his efforts to try to help trump overturned the election results, didnt work. And so when Rudy Giuliani went to him and said, well, i did all this on your behalf, trump would not pay him and now were to giuliani is voting his own legal. Becker said here when cohen went to them, that trump said, hes got plenty of money. We dont need to pay him. And then he did something. I mean, this is why so much every de is riding even more on Michael Cohen because im brought back to the fact that Michael Cohen decided to tape trump in that i critical moment to say im about to make this payment for you, Michael Cohen knew that he needed the proof. He created the the evidence of it and was ultimately paid back. This is incredibly incriminating and Sensitive Information for donald trump. He did not want it out there and Michael Cohen was the one person who knew all about every element of this. So when he gets on the Witness Stand, theres quite a lot there. Its always been inevitable that they were going to need Michael Cohen to draw that link. And lets remember if we say, well, why should donald trump have to know about the small bore nuances of accounting . Because the Prosecutor Charging with a small bore nuance accounting crime, they chose to charge that they have after lincoln to it, what the prosecutors have been doing. And i think quite successfully thus far is reducing the amount of gap that Michael Cohen needs to bridge all these documents, all this testimony from david packer and others makes what Michael Collins about to say and we all know about what is going to be saying in a couple of days or whenever he takes us, then makes it easier to swallow, easier to believe more plausible. So theyre, theyre trying to, they know the jury has to take a Leap Of Faith with Michael Cuellar and they want to minimize that. Well, you always talk about that tape where he says to Michael Cohen, like you just take care of it, right . Refresh my record. So this is a tape relating to Karen Mcdougal, a couple of months before the Stormy Daniels pay off, but this got introduced to the jury on friday and essentially, Michael Cohen says were going to be paying Karen Mcdougal and trumps fine. Sure. One 50. How are we going to do it . And Michael Cohen nundy. I got it. I got it. Dont worry me and me and alawda are going to work actually. Shrimp suggests trends, someone who says right, 50, right trump says one 50 and trump says cash. I dont see that necessarily is damning for him. He saying were just gonna were gonna pay it in one shot that does, by the way, cash doesnt necessarily mean an envelope filled with hundred dollar bills when someone buys a house with cash, it means a onetime project. And Michael Cohen understands him to mean that because michael says no, no, no financing, meaning were going to do this more complex than just a onetime transaction. So i dont, if im a prosecutor, i wish Michael Cohen never hit secretly hit record on his own client. I dont like that tape. It goes both ways. It gives some points to the prosecution, some points that offense. But man, if youre the prosecution, you have that burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. You dont want an a piece of evidence that has useful stuff both ways. One thing that we always talk about Michael Cohens credibility understandably i remember, i mean, everyone versus congressional testimony. Trump is also on tape lying about what he knew about this. I mean, that iconic moment on Air Force One when catherine lucy, who i believe was with the Associated Press at the time, asked him what he knew. He straightup lies and says he didnt know about it, even though by that time youve already paid Michael Cohen backboard. So donald trump also has credibility issues here. Any lied to hope picks . Its clear that she if painter to say it, but she was saying no, cohen, this is not what cohen would do when trump told me that he did it of his own accord. I dont believe it. Oh, and told hope hicks he did it on his own she testified to that thats not good for colon. Thats not good for the different hicks testified that trump told her that cohen did it on his own, and then she followed up by saying but that but she doesnt believe thats not what coincide with her as well that several aspects of this er libman. Thank you so much. Thanks. Say where theres next. More details from the full Trial Transcripts . Dust out tonight, including a portion of the prosecution stepbystep attempt to do what weve just been talking about, namely established that length at eleia just mentioned connecting the defendant to the alleged crime im sue the testimony of one of his former top money ma