to take this. remember, by the way, two months ago, jack smith said to the supreme court, only you can decide this case. you, the supreme court and you alone have to resolve this. >> all right. elie honig. thank you so much. appreciate it. much more reaction to this big breaking news. the head in the next hour, our coverage continues now, i'll see you soon >> tonight straight from the source, the supreme court will decide whether donald trump is immune from prosecution in the federal election. appearance case. but they also may have just played a major role in his legal strategy. >> we have new >> reporting on trump's reaction to it all tonight also, our exclusive interview senator mitt romney, he only republican senator to vote to convict trump twice he'll weigh in on what he believes a second trump term would mean. >> and also a key figure of watergate. john dean will join me. >> what is >> president nixon's white house counsel make of the ruling that could shape us history. >> i'm kaitlan collins and this is the source we are feeling shockwaves tonight from the supreme court. and if things play out as they now seem, that they will, donald trump will not have to face jack smith in court until deep into 2024 for potentially right up against the election, or even more likely after the election. and of course, all of this depends on whether or not he wins that election in which case he may never have to face jack smith. it all on this case. that's because the supreme court now says it is going to decide whether donald trump, as a former president, has immunity from being criminally prosecuted for the actions that he took while he was in office. that includes his attempt to overthrow a free and fair election in 2020. the supreme court waited weeks to announce this decision and did not schedule arguments until the week of april 22, and was two months from where we sit today this is after that a federal appeals court issued that blistering, but also importantly, unanimous ruling saying that citizen trump is not immune president of this country has to have immunity or they're not going to be able to function in office and talk about threat to democracy. that's your real threat to democracy and i feel that as a president, you have to have immunity we're hearing from sources tonight that trump and his team view this as a win for now course, they've been working repeatedly to push his federal trials until after the 2024 election. it may get their wish on one of them because this decision means that a ruling from the supreme court may not come until late june even if trump loses on the merits here, which his team i'm told expects could likely happen. he could actually win on a technicality. it takes time to get a trial going to pick a jury. trump's attorneys, the doj, the judge here. judge chutkan, will all have to turn their focus to the calendar. are there other court cases expected to be on there? and of course, we'll ultimately see whether trump's efforts to run out the clock on a trial when it comes to overturning the last election, at least trying to before election day this year, paid off here tonight, former counsel to attorney to the attorney general, shan wu, cnn legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, elliot williams also cnn's senior supreme court analyst, joan biskupic, and cnn senior law enforcement analyst and former deputy director of the fbi. andrew mccabe and joan, let me start with you because we have kind of been waiting and waiting pleading and waiting. what does this mean? and what do you make of how they decided to do this now and here this late april, they had several weeks to tell us when whether they wanted to intervene. actually, they had since last december, when special counsel jack smith first, went to the supreme court and said, please hear this case. he understands how long it takes to resolve any kind of serious question like whether a former president is immune from criminal trial. he said, please intervene then the justices rejected it in a one-sentence order with no explanation. and now they've waited two weeks after additional filings had come in. once we had a dc circuit interim ruling and what it means is they do not embrace a sense of urgency to the extent that special counsel jack smith on behalf of the united states and the department of justice has toward trying president trump. but they did get if the special counsel something instead of just scheduling it as you normally would any case granted in the month of february, scheduling it for next session, they decided they'd schedule it at least for april arguments, which means we would probably get a ruling at the end of june if it's resolved on the same kind of schedule well, that other cases that will be argued in april, we'll go but caitlin, this delay suggests there's plenty of tension behind the scenes. and i could see this being pushed further into summer. and i think the very bottom line here is that this supreme court is going to remain at the center of the election year controversies. and it also means that because of this action today, it's unlikely donald trump would be tried in any way on this election subversion claim by summer, and maybe not through all of 2024, the idea that he may be pushed even later, you talk about that tension behind the scenes. i mean, as a former federal prosecutor, what do you make of this? >> what i make a visit fact that judges and particularly the united states supreme court, more than any other entity in america operates on its own timeline, operates on its own schedule, and has chosen not to face the political realities of the fact that we have an election and prosecutors that want to have a case going on on their own timeline now, to be clear, the supreme court, as we've all talked about here on this network the supreme court could have simply taken up the lower court opinion, not taken up per say, but just not not stepped in at all and let that prior opinion stand. it was unanimous. it was clear and quite frankly, it's very likely that whatever they decide somewhat tracks the reasoning in that opinion because the law at least to me as a lay person, seems pretty clear on this issue about immunity. they have chosen to step in, they are moving, i guess fast and supreme court terms, but it did not need to take as long as it did. let's just put it that will shed. i mean, if you're looking at this, if you're jack smith tonight, how are you viewing what the supreme court has decided because to joan's point? they didn't move as fast as they could, but they did move faster than they normally do >> if i'm jack smith, i'm pretty frustrated with this. i mean, best-case scenario. i'm tremendously under the gun in terms of timing some things i could try to do this, speed it up as there to be a shorter crop prep time, but it makes it really hard to disagree respectfully with elliot. i think it is very political decision actually, because by them refusing to just let the case stand, they have to have their pawprints on it. they have to get involved when it was a very strong decision and they could have just want to stand. so they are involved. >> pretty well to be clear, it wasn't saying it wasn't a political choice at all and just saying that they we were talking about this before. it's the that snoop genus of the united states supreme court. what it is supreme arrogance, what they have done is they've preserved for themselves the final word on this issue. and they have done it at the expense of ever having these charges and the evidence supported the supporting them, ever considered by a fair and impartial jury? because in all likelihood, i mean, it's it's hard to predict with any degree of confidence because they were so many variables that will fall into place as we get these decisions. but i think it's the likelihood is that we will not see a trial of these charges before. >> on the jack smith 0.0, the question of house jack smith fan, remember jack smith asked for this case to be taken by the supreme court back in december. they could have addressed the case and sort of jumped over the appeals court. >> and i think they could have because then then it would have answered why they are intervening here because i don't think it's bad that they're intervening generally to say were the supreme court, we should have the last word on it. but the point is that they've delayed it. actually, i would predict right now, they will probably affirm the dc circuit >> didn't get up >> if they're going to be because they are the supreme court and they want to have the last word enough of them. let's remember who's on this court also? there is a 6-3 conservative liberal majority, but it's not just that it breaks down along ideology that way without a lot of justices, several of them who've worked in the executive branch, who takes, who take the idea of separation of powers and executive authority seriously. so i'm sure there's some very substantive reasons to get in bob the only question is when and they already deleted from december. and the way this order came down, it already. >> when >> you say supreme arrogance, you mean because they are going to likely affirm this decision and that they didn't have to take it up, but but as jonah saying, they want it to be dem is that what you mean by that? >> it is. and i think there's another aspect of this kaitlan. there. and i know elly is going to jump in here and disagree with me vociferously, but that's fine. there is an imperative here about having some finality to these issues. for the voters to be able to consider before the election. judge chutkan has referenced this in a bunch of her statements and in her rulings on some motions, jack smith has argued it in several different in several different filings, and i would argue that this resolution of these charges is important, not just two people who are not supporters of president trump and are seeking some desire of accountability for what they perceive as his illegal actions with respect to 2020, but also for trump's supporters, if you want to see donald trump re-elected or elected you should want him to go on trial and be proven innocent and carry that that vindication into the final months of the campaign. >> and we could potentially see that in the sense of, okay, so let's say that decision does come out in june. everyone's been doing the rough math if they tried to schedule the trial two months later because they've got to have the procedures in place. i mean, could they actually schedule a trial that close to the election? >> they could schedule a trial that close to the election that would be pretty breakneck. just so folks understand, it would take roughly two to three months based on sort of the estimates that folks have to get from the de of an opinion comes out to coming to trial. now, the justice department has a policy of not taking investigative actions within 60 days of an election. now the problem, 36 years of an election. now the problem is what about a trial that maybe could have started? but it's six months ago or started a few months ago, but carries over into the days before the election. it's sort of an a grayer space now, i think the just department still proceed and try to move forward with a trial, but it's close. >> so what are the classified documents case is underway in august and then how does that play here? because that could certainly complicate that. that's not going >> to have dr. i think that's what a slow roll. >> but i think maybe neither >> of these could go to trial. >> oh, absolutely. i think that's a very real possibility that neither of these will go to trial and just to throw one more wrench into the works. >> if they schedule it. and the preparation goes really fast >> to me. it's not impossible that attorney general merrick garland would actually the exercise his discretion. he has some oversight over this and say, this is too close to the election. it looks too partisan to me, even though all his non-action ends up being partisan, hear, he might actually step in and say, i think this is too close. >> i mean i think it's important to take a step back and realize how big this is. we talk about so many different legal developments. but this could actually decide whether this happens if it doesn't, if trump does win the election, this case hasn't seen the light of day before then he makes it go away, gone. the jury, american people will never get to hear these charges in this case, argue they never hear this one, and they never hear the mar-a-lago case, which i agree with shan will be likely to be heard after the election anyway. so you think about that, if if, as we, some of us think that this unlikely with this decision today that we're unlikely to have this case tried before the election you're basically looking at a 50, 50 chance that either of these cases we'll ever go to trial. >> it's a markable, joan. the role of the supreme court is going to play regardless of what they decide in the 2024 election, because they don't just have this, they've also got the colorado ballot case. i mean, they have so much in their hands right. and the colorado ballot case was heard on february 8th, and we still don't have a ruling there. we do know from oral arguments and i think we can take this to the bank that this supreme court is going to reverse the colorado supreme court and say that donald chunk shouldn't remain on state ballots. now, i had thought we have a ruling by at least monday they the day before next monday the day before super tuesday, when colorado voters finished their balloting for the primary and several other states have their primary elections. we still could get it, but we know which way that one's going well, we suspect, but that's what it's still an important decision from them. an important decision that says contrary to what the colorado supreme court said, donald trump cannot be kept from ballots under this provision of the constitution that bars people who had taken an oath to uphold the constitution and then engaged in an correction. >> a remarkable moment, glad to have all of your perspectives on this tonight. it says we are at a pivotal moment in the 2024 election of next year. the source senator mitt romney, he's here to react to what you just heard this decision, what he thinks of that also so the breaking news we got today, senator mitch mcconnell is stepping down as the senate republican leader why choose a steep number smart bad? >> can it keep me warm when i'm cold? >> wait, no, i'm always hot. >> sleep number. does that can i make my side softer? >> i think my side firmer speak number. does that can help us sleep better and better? please >> sleep number does that 94% of smart sleepers report better sleep in now the queen's sleep number c4's mortvedt is only 15, 99 all right. let's say $300 shop 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has some monument which would apply not only did donald trump, but the future presidents and they, they thought they needed to take a deep look at it. >> i think one question about it is whether or not it means that the trial be delayed. i wonder if you think that voters deserve to hear this case. see it, go to trial before the election, given the basis of it is about trying to overturn an election. >> yeah, i think the process of the law, as they say, grinds find but also slow. it takes time that's the nature of our system. they're not going to change the procedures of the supreme court based upon campaigns and elections. they're going to go to this the way they would. another important case. and then i could respond to what they think voters want to hear when they want to hear it. >> yeah, we'll see what they decide. of course, when you think about the supreme court, one pivotal figure that you think about in washington is senator mitch mcconnell and the role he played in shaping the last three justices who were joined, who've joined the court. he announced today that he is stepping down from republican leadership. what did you make of that news? >> well, i was surprised he announced it today. i thought he might make a decision in an outset, perhaps in november, when a new administration came to town or the same one was reelected, one of the other. but his decision to do it today reflected, i'm sure his personal interests in cares and it's hard to speculate exactly why i was surprised that he announced it today because it's a long period now of relatively lame duck status. but i think there's a perception that mitch mcconnell rules with an iron hand that he he twists arms and and tells people how he wants into vote. nothing could be further from the truth. i think he recognizes that there are 49 republicans in our caucus, each of whom thinks that'll be president of the united states. and the last thing they need is a leader who's telling them what to do so he listens to us encourages us to follow our own conscience. now and then he'll tell us what he's going to do. oftentimes, not until the last minute. so i don't think there's a big change in how we will operate over the coming months. how >> does it reflect on the institution know that he doesn't he is stepping down from this leadership role well, i think there's been very few, if any, leaders that have had more commitment to the institution of the senate. the mitch mcconnell, he after all, it took extraordinary heat from president trump, who wanted to get rid of the filibuster and put through his full agenda without any need for democratic votes. and mitch mcconnell said no because he wants to protect the institution of the senate. and so i think what he's doing now is consistent with that. his commitment to the senate itself i think his timing may have personal implications, potentially political implications will see as time goes on i was with a group of republican senators this evening. we're speculating as to why he's doing it now. does it relate to the campaign and so forth? but we really don't know and we'll probably get a better sense of that as time goes on. >> well, and the speculation also is who's going to replace him, who is going to be the next person who is going to take that role for senate republicans do you have a concern that the litmus test for that is going to be loyalty to donald trump >> no, i don't think that's how senators will vote. i mean, there'll be some who will be some will be interested in what the president thanks and who he might endorse. the president's former president. but i think we've got three leading candidates right now. the johns, if you will, john barrasso, john thune, john cornyn people jokingly say, i'm for john, for john. and i think they're pretty be safe and saying that if president trump were to say, i'm for this one versus that one, i don't think again, these 49 or 50 republican senators are going to say, oh i'm going to do what? donald trump tells me to do this pretty headstrong group weeds think we're pretty good and people like me actually ran for president once we got a bunch of guys who ran for president. yeah. >> but you're different in this sense of how you stand up. and we just saw trump's influence on the immigration bill the senate, that bipartisan bill with foreign aid that came out. he did have a lot of influence on at least some of those republicans senators. >> yes. i think on various issues he will have an influence. i think he has more influence in the house then he does in the senate. but i think by-in-large senators vote their conscience. they do what they think is the right thing for their constituents, for their reelection for the country and so i don't, i don't think that they salute and take direction either for mitch mcconnell or from donald trump one of the most aspects that stood out to me and something about mitch mcconnell's legacy is, of course, the role that he played when donald trump was impeached and >> he voted to acquit, even though he made clear that he thought the legal system would take care of him in a deeply reported book about you by mckay coppins, it was reported that during that time after the impeachment managers had given their presentation that they walked by you at one point and mcconnell said they nailed him, referencing donald trump. i wonder what you make of how he handled that and whether how that affects history going forward. >> well, i think i think there are a number of people, mitch mcconnell among them, who believed that that the prosecutor's view will on the democrat side, were able to prove their case that donald trump had done the things that they alleged but these individuals felt that that didn't rise to the level that required his removal from office or in this case being barred from office. and of course, there were two impeachment trials. so that may be mixing the two, as i say this. but mitch mcconnell felt, for instance that you shouldn't have an impeachment trial is someone who has left office. he thinks that's just a bad precedent and so he thought the legal system would therefore do the work that needed to do for someone who's left office. he thought that if we were going to be impeaching former presidents that at some point we're going to be impeaching presidents that had slaves. thomas jefferson, let's impeach it. we're going to, we're going to open a pandora's box that could be challenging, but i don't i don't i can't speak for precisely what mitch mcconnell believed, but i do think there were a number of senators who i believe the case was made, but didn't think it rose to a requirement to remove from office or bar permanently from future office. but >> now trump's team is arguing his legal team that unless you're impeding and convicted, then you can't be prosecuted. i mean, what do you make of his the basis of what the supreme court is hearing the presidents have this broad immunity. >> well, i'm not a constitutional lawyer but you ran for president and i ran for president. i went i went to law school, but the by bar exam is alon him. it's expired >> i i just don't think that's a very effective argument. in my own view, but this is more as a lay person then as a jurist or a constitutional scholar. but i the idea that you have to have a an impeachment trial and be convicted and an impeachment trial in order to be convicted in a court of law. i don't understand that connection and i don't see it in the constitution don't worry, we have a lot more of our interview in that conversation. it was so fascinating with senator mitt romney, the blame that he says he believes his own party will there once in the house if they don't help aid ukraine. also, more thoughts on donald trump and bladder putin. i start after a quick break it's to being a young man cowboy or gates and against is alice down. i've got back to my roots we've come from a long ladder. calvin, my 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should defend freedom in places where it's under attack. i think for instance, if, if taiwan were attacked, you'd see the great majority of the republican senate but her say, we need to help, help taiwan want to give it weapons so it can defend itself i believe that if there's a plane vote just to give weapons to ukraine, the republican senators will support that somewhere unhappy with support for the government, ukraine did want to vote for the ukraine funding and that basis. but i think the majority of our group feels that we are better off in america if we defend the cause of freedom around the world. otherwise, bad people, terrible authoritarians like vladimir putin are going to ultimately attack nato nations. and we're gonna be required by treaty center on soldiers into harm's way. or we can walk away from nato and blow up a, an alliance which has helped preserve will global peace among, at least, among the major powers for the last 75 or 80 years >> i was just in ukraine sitting down with president zelenskyy. they are deeply worried that your colleagues in the house, republicans it's in the house, aren't going to send them any more aid that they are going to stand in the way. >> i mean, what >> responsibility do you believe republicans will bear for setbacks on the battlefield for ukraine if they don't pass any more aid. >> well, if, if we don't pass aid for ukraine then i think ukraine has a very difficult time preserving their geographic integrity and a life you're gonna have a lot of people who lose their life as russia runs across ukraine and that will make it very clear to people around the world that you really can't trust america's word because we made a commitment in 1990 before two respect the sovereignty of ukraine to help defend the people of ukraine if they were attacked. and that's what's happening. and if we walk away from that, they won't trust our word europe will say, hey the united states is not with us. we're not going to be with them if there's something they want to do in the pacific, for instance, let them deal with china, let america deal with china and the issues there. so we're strong globally in part because of our friends we have alliances, we always talk about how the russians and the chinese don't have the kinds of friends we have. well, we have friends in part because we stand together. and if we don't stand with our friends, we will lose strength and that will ultimately come to hurt us. >> so you disagree with your colleagues, senator jd vance, who is making the argument that 60 billion more dollars won't fundamentally change ukraine's stance on the battlefield. >> that it's an interesting point. it just happens to be as accurate as it is irrelevant. all right, it may not change their stance on the battlefield. what it does do is communicate to the entire world that we honor our commitments and we stand with our friends and we will, we will help freedom fighters around the world who are our friends and allies. and that's a message which is important to the people in taiwan, to the people in japan, to the people in india, to the people in europe. i mean, all these people are watching to see, can you count on america? or as america, so isolation is, it doesn't care what happens to the rest of us if that's the case by the way, if we seed leadership, if we're no longer the leader of the free world, if we're no longer the arsenal of democracy then the world has good look for different leaders. and i know at least one player that's happy to step into that role. and that's china and a world where xi jinping is the leader of the world, is a very dangerous world and not good for america, not good for our businesses, for economy, but certainly not good for our freedom. >> it's also pretty amazing to hear you just put it in this simple perspective. if house republicans block more money to ukraine, lives will be lost, and ukraine as a result of that, there's no question about that. >> lazzie we lost there and vladimir putin will not stop he may take some time to rebuild his military because it's been decimated by the ill-considered attack ukraine. >> but he will ultimately go after other nations in the baltics, latvia, lithuania, potentially poland, those are possibilities. georgia he will continue. he has indicated he wants to rebuild the russian empire, if you will. and those are nato nations we are obligated under treaty to come to their defense. we are. >> it would be pound excuse me, pennywise and pound foolish to say we're not going to help ukraine with weapons when the next step is a place where under treaty we would be obligated to help with not just weapons, but and funds, but blood and we need to make sure that the world knows. we will stand with ukraine. i can't guarantee as, as j.d. vance indicates, that this is going to mean that ukraine is successful on the battlefield. but i can guarantee it shows a world that will stand by our friends. >> do you agree with president zelenskyy's analysis that trump doesn't really understand putin because he's never thought him >> i don't know that. i can enter into the mind of donald trump and understand his perspectives. i think he shows more respect for vladimir putin, that vladimir putin deserves donald trump has said some strange things like, well, okay, putin has killed some people, but our presidents killed when people too, it's like, yeah, but our president so killed their political opponents and members of the media all right, our president is take us toward to protect our freedom and our interests as we understand them. that's very different than murdering political opponents and murdering members of the media and incarcerating journalists these are the things vladimir putin does and attacking a sovereign nation, ukraine without provocation and killing tens of thousands of people, kidnapping children. this is a very bad guy based upon our values and i think the values that are shared by people throughout the world. and i think it's fine for president and a former president to talk to leaders of other nations but be cleared. vladimir putin is a very bad person >> nikki haley, who is challenging donald trump for the republican nomination, is in your home state today campaigning. she's gotten a lot of support from other top republicans in your state, but her argument in what she told your constituents today is that if trump's the republican nominee, your party is going to lose the election. do you agree with that? >> yeah, i don't necessarily agree with that. that's a good campaign line. i'm sure, but i think i could win. oh, sure. i think you can win. today. it's kinda that toss up. but if the election were actually held, the de i think he probably when i can't tell what's going to happen over the next nine months or so. but what does it mean if he does when well, a dramatic change in our foreign policy, i think that people around the world say, okay, america is no longer the leader of the fridge free world. and the ursula democracy. it's not the shining city on a hill is now an isolated island and there's some things by the way, donald trump does better than joe biden a lot. joe biden has made extraordinary mistakes on the immigration front. it's embarrassing how bad is bet. >> yeah, i know you care deeply about the border and so he's made term and down. trump did a lot of smart things when he was president on the foreign policy front, it would be a dramatic departure from our posture over the last 75 or 80 years that by the way, his natalie kept this safe and free from attack, but it's also allowed us to build an extraordinarily strong economy and have a income per person in america, about a third higher than people in europe. >> but can i just ask, i think that those comments there may raise some questions for people watching at home. would you vote for donald trump? for joe biden? no. no, no, absolutely not. i mean, for me, there there are two factors are decided who i want to have as the leader of my country and the person who is the example of the president for my kids, my grandkids one is their position on policies and on foreign policy, and that aligned with donald trump, at least as i understand his policy and domestic policy. yeah, lined with many of his domestic policies but there's another dimension besides policy. and that's character and i think what america is as a nation, what is allowed us to be the most powerful nation on earth and the leader of the earth is the character of the people who have been our leaders past presidents, but also mothers, fathers, church leaders, university presidents, and so forth. having a president who is so defaulted of character would have an enormous impact on the character of america. and for me that's the primary consideration. >> senator mitt romney. thank you for coming on the source tonight. >> thanks. kaitlan a fascinating interview with him up. next we'll talk more about the historic arguments that are set to happen at the us supreme court. trump's former impeachment lawyer is here. why he says he does believe trump is entitled to immunity, and whether or not the justices will buy that this year. >> i got serious about my taxes. i met with the turbotax expert because i had two full-time jobs lawyering and miami all my own >> count on me, >> i'll file your taxes for you with 100% accuracy guaranteed i'm too sorry to smile. >> make your moves count. intuit turbo tax, little full service expert, do your taxes for you as soon as today? >> uh you know ed >> look in the hotels.com to find your perfect somewhere. >> we have a new home. what's that? we have of garage door that doesn't lift and we have a gate doesn't open. so i went on. angie took me just a handful of minutes. >> vendors who came through energy, you were more knowledgeable. they did higher-quality work. >> they wanted us to be happy with the work done as well. >> we felt like we got the most value 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not convicted in the senate, as we talked out with senator romney, david, i just wonder if you're in the trump legal team. tonight and you hear this from the supreme court that they are going to take this up and they're not going to do it until at least here at until april 22. are they happy about this? >> i'm sure they are. yeah. that's still a pretty quick schedule, you know, all things being considered but yeah. i mean, i think the supreme court nobody can read their mind, but i think that they felt it is of monumentally important case. and it's the criminals side of the nixon versus gerald case. and so i think they fell felt it was appropriate, not arrogant for them to weigh in on and decided once and for all. >> so you disagree with the argument that we heard from the former deputy fbi director, andrew mccabe earlier saying that an essence everyone believes they're just going to affirm what the appeals court found and they want their name to be on it that to be but i don't think that would be the reason i think that one of the criteria primary criteria for the supreme court to hear a case besides conflict among circuits is a case of monumental constitutional importance. and i think this is that kind of landmark case. i think that if they resolve it, they ought to resolve it on relatively narrow grounds. i think something like a model like nixon versus fitzgerald would well serve the court in the criminal context. also, we have some of the same interests. the court there was concerned about the intrusions on the function and the authority of the executive branch and so if something isn't official act, then that sort of stops the process. and so we don't put people at parallel, make decisions in war time. let's say, for certain bombings that afterwards people look at and say, gee, you shouldn't have done that, that look like a war crime. i don't think we want policy to be driven by a concern about being prosecuted for something that in hindsight looks illegal, potentially but that's not what he's being prosecuted here for, not a drone strike or a decision to go to war. i mean, he's being prosecuted for his attempts to overturn the election >> i mean, that's a way to characterize it, which many people have, i would say than in other way to care how you characterize it, had genuine concerns about election integrity that he demanded investigation to it, that nobody really knows what the vice president's role is under the electoral count act as the leading election law expert in the country probably has said from ohio state, nobody knows what the parameters really of the authority are. and therefore, he demanded that he believes agree with that he may well. >> but but i think the evidence that i've seen at least is that president trump genuinely believed, based on information he was provided, that there were concerns about it. and so all of this came up in the impeachment trial also, i think that it was quintessential official act and that's to me. >> yeah. but the argument that a lot of the senators made, which was noted by this appeals court, is that they believed this isn't something for us to take up. this is something for a court to take up. so that's why they were skeptical of the argument that trump's attorney was making, which is that you can only be prosecuted if you've been impeached and then convicted, but let me ask you about the timing of this because a lot of this has to do with how long trump was in office, how long he is protected and in his view, he's permanently protected. but what the appeals court was arguing is that he's now citizen trump and that any immunity he did have no longer applies to him. >> yeah, that would be a very dangerous position to take. i think the court went that far. i don't think they had to. i think that the timeframe that's relevant is when the person was president. we don't then say, well, you lose the immunity afterwards. listen, that's part of the question. the supreme court consider. they consider the single question they're considering is whether and to what extent a former president his immune from criminal liability for alleged acts, official acts. so you're right. that's part of the question. >> can i i wonder your perspective? because let's say that the supreme court comes out and makes their decision on this june 1. and then judge chutkan gets the case moving, that they do actually schedule this trial before the election. but if it is scheduled, then for they september and trump's team is arguing, well, it's too close to the election that's election interference. i mean, can they in good faith make that argument given they're the ones who sought this delay in the first place. >> well, i don't think they sought delay in this case. that is by taking up the immunity. >> definitely did. they'll openly admit that they want to be delayed no question. they have said that. i just mean by taking the appeal in the immunity issue, i don't think that this was foisted on them. they didn't ask for the prosecution in the first place, but listen, i happen to love judge chutkan in many ways. i want a big case with her this week i don't think she's done anything wrong in that regard, but i think that this is an issue that has to play out. these are all important let's do sul issues. and i think that's more important than rushing forward. i don't think there should be a criminal trial in this case. i don't think criminal charges on the point though. the question was about can they in good faith, make an argument about when it's scheduled if they sought to delay it? >> yes. i think they can because if the delay in this case is because the system is working and the court is fleshing out these issues, then i think they can still make the argument. first of all, i'm not sure they would have enough preparation time. remember, we still have under review in the supreme court the obstruction statute that has to be played out and they have to be able to prepare their defense based on what but the parameters of that statute is going to be. so i think i think they can make the argument still in good faith. >> david schoen, thanks for joining us. >> thank you. >> both sides of this argument have referred to nixon's case that went before the high court to bolster their arguments don john dean, president nixon's white house counsel will join us with his perspective >> nothing comes close to this place in the morning. i'm so glad i can still come here. you see i was diagnosed with obstructive hcm and there were some days i was so short of breath. i thought i'd have to settle for never stepping foot on this trail again, i became great at making excuses, but i have people who count on me so i talked to my cardiologist. i said there must be more we can do for my symptoms. he told me about a medication called camps ios. he said camps ios works by targeting what's causing my obstructive hcl. so he prescribed it and i'm really glad he did. >> 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question is, when is there a decision joining me now is someone who knows a lot about the supreme court taking up landmark cases about presidential power former white house counsel for president richard nixon, john dean, and john it's great to have you here because it is not not an overstatement to say that whatever they decide and how long they take to decided could be a pivotal moment in this election and how it plays out. >> very much so you're quite right on that. and the gray area of the timing is what's going to create a lot of drama we do know the briefing schedule, but how quickly will they move after the arguments? historically, we know the court can move quickly when it wants to, as it did bush v. gore, move with lightning speed within days and had resolved the issue actually in favor of the majority of the court which were republicans at the time but it also in nixon, us versus nixon, it took about, it took about just under three weeks, 16 days as i recall to get the opinion of the court that nixon had to turn over his secretly recorded conversations so the court is used to these kinds of big deliberations and it can move with speed when it wants to well, so then compare that to this timing. if someone's at home watching and confused on the fact that what you just said there, bush v. gore happening being resolved in a matter of days. usb nixon, you said it took about two weeks after oral arguments before we got that. and the fact that this took weeks to just hear when the schedule is going to be now it's happening too. ons >> from now >> we don't know until decades after the fact that what happens inside the court and sometimes not even then with watergate, and that court, then the nixon court in that era, we know a lot because scott armstrong and bob woodward got a whole hold of a slew of clerks and did a book called the brother and then they went right inside the decision-making process. a lot of politics involved, a lot of watching the hearings involved inside the court. they're very aware they keep a keen antenna as to what's going on politically. so we know there are sophisticated and following public reaction, if you will. this is a court today that has got a lot of bad well against it as a result of overturning roe, it is a court that doesn't seem to care about. it's standing with the public so that's why i don't know how it's going to play out. kaitlan, i really don't i don't have a good feel for it. i know there's a need to address immunity but it needs to be done quickly and not to be protracted. >> yeah. joan biskupic was reporting that clearly there is tension behind the scenes in the supreme court and how to approach this. that's what she read into how long it took to actually hear that they were going to take this up. but i wonder if you also think that there are tea leaves to read, if you will. and the question that the supreme court has decided to answer here, because essentially it's to what extent that's the quote about the immunity for former presidents. and do you believe that means that they want to see parameters put in place? could we see a limit on executive power as a result of what trump is trying to do here they framed the question broader and a little differently. nice has thought they would in the one-page order, but it also i immediately when when really i thought, well, you know, we're all forgetting that there are two other cases that immunity is at play that involve donald trump and one is the florida case. he has filed a brief in florida seeking immunity there, and he has said his lawyers have said they plan to do so in georgia as well. the only place he's waived it is in new york with the bragg case the manhattan da case, the election interference potential on his part. so immunity is a real issue. in much broader than the january 6 case, if you will? >> i think what a lot of people listen to you, john, i mean, they think of just the landmark kind of implications in these decisions. when you look at this, how pivotal do you think this will be in us history? >> you know, it's hard to tell when they're going to do a landmark decision. they could do a very quick run through and really just embrace the opinion of the dc circuit, which is a very sophisticated look at it based on the facts. i think they could do that really troubles me given the order they've issued is they could actually send it back to a lower court to get more facts. now that would really make it protracted, and that would mean there's not a prayer would take place and be decided before the election. the order there under has the markings of a potential landmark decision. no question. the fact that they took it up it is a court, however, that likes the last word so i think we all going to have to sit tight and see what happens. >> yeah. >> oh, and that last word from you, john dean. i mean, we'll just see what the timing of course here at what that means for everything. thank you. john dean really 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