we have heard it from trump himself by the way. something a little different when sean hannity asked him if he could abuse power as retribution. >> he said you're not going to be a dictator are you. i said no. we are closing the border and drilling. >> okay, the big question tonight, are there any guardrails left? here tonight, someone who may have the answers. joining me now is eric holder, former u.s. attorney general under president obama.. i'm so glad you are here. i served as a prosecutor while you were the attorney general. there is a lot that happened since those moments and there is new news tonight before we get into all we want to talk about tonight. there is new news about hunter biden. there is an additional indictment. a new nine-count indictment against him. it includes three felony counts for failure to pay taxes in california and he is accused broadly of a four-year scheme. this one to avoid paying $1.9 million. this comes after the plea offer and plea deal blew up in court. this is really troubling for him in particular, is it not? >> it's difficult. the plea deal looked like it was going to resolve everything. when that plea deal fell apart, it became clear because of venue issues there would need to be two separate indictments so this was expected. though i have not had the chance to review the indictment. nobody want to be under felony indictment in two different places. so for him personally, this is something that will be very difficult. >> now he has been talking and many have been using him as the center of an argument. on the one hand, they talk about a two-tier justice system. you, the former attorney general have particularly unique insight into how the justice system really works. but he is saying look, i'm being targeted. it's a continuation of a larger discussion about the weaponnization of the government. you heard this is a lot. when you see a case like this, is hunter biden an example of a witch hunt or justice pursued? >> i wouldn't call it a witch hunt. but i have spoken to former colleagues both republican and democrat who were united states attorneys and i said you had these facts in your office, would you have brought this case? and the answer to a person was no. this is not a case we would have brought. that there would have been some kind of resolution along the lines that was suggested in the possible plea agreement. i think he is being not targeted but treated perhaps a little differently because of who he is. there is a political component to the case. i think there is certainly political pressure in this case you would not see. >> the pressure being if he does not pursue this case, he must be trying to do a favor for joe biden? is that the assumption? >> something along those line it is. you had whistleblowers who said despite indictments brought, not everything the investigators wanted done was done. that was refuted by the attorney general by mr. weiss himself. there is no question that there is political component to this. >> it is interesting because as you mentioned, weiss sent letters to congress, addressed this issue to suggest that the whistleblowers did not share his concern or added something to it. he was very clear initially about why he was doing what he was doing. now, this has been brought. still, the political component of this is very evident for so many people and one of the reasons why hunter biden is saying look, if you want to testify congress in front of you, it has to be done in front of the camera where the american people can hear. there is the assumption you will twist my words or cherry pick. do you have concerns about the pushback that congress is giving? >> if i were hunter biden's warriors, i wouldn't want him interacting with congress at all. who knows what he will say there. he is facing charges in a criminal setting. i think let's put this out in front of the american people. let's not have something done behind closed doors where word cans be twisted. let's put it out there for all the people to see. >> you know, part of the details this new indictment are likely things no one wants to talk about in front of the camera. some of the details here about how he spent the money. instead of paying his taxes and the allegations, he allegedly spent the money on $10,000 to purchase a membership in a sex club. paying someone approximately $6,000 for tasks like food, alcohol, and underwear. the figures went on over what he chose to pay instead of taxes. do you think that contributes to the perception this is a tarring and feathering in the public square or are these the type of details necessary to include in the indictment? >> once you want to bring an indictment, you want to bring the strongest case you possibly can. bring the case with the strongest appeal to a jury so you can get a conviction and those kinds of facts are the things that any prosecutor would want to include in an indictment to argue before the jury. this isn't an ordinary run of the mill tax case. i'm sure that's why those things were included in there. >> you were bombarded with all of these conversations politically speaking to tell you the government is weaponnized and there is a two- tiered justice. it is no secret we have perhaps two different tracks. the haves and the have notes. this is not new news. the way they talk about it now is to suggest that the department of justice is used for retribution. if you are a political appointee of the united states, you would become the puppet. when you hear those statements it must offend you to hear about the legacy of the department you ran. >> yeah, that's just not true. you know? it is really an institution that is anti-political. that is politically neutral. that follows the facts in the law and makes determinations on the basis. when the justice department does not do that, that is when they get into trouble. attorneys general are certainly part of the president's cabinet. but they are different. when i was confirmed, patrick lehy sated you will be of the united states. you are different from the other members. it must also remain neutral. any political considerations. and, i think that merrick garland has done that. there are rare exceptions where that has not been the case. john mitchell under richard nixon. i would say bill barr under donald trump certainly let political things get into the determinations they made. >> if the former president donald trump has a second term, he has been promising in many respect to do that very thing no the justice department. the reason he is saying he wants to do it, they are doing it now. he says they are doing it against him. there are real concerns the justice department could be entirely transformed under a trump presidency. do you share those concerns? >> absolutely. i take him at his word when he says he wants advocates for him, people who will be about retribution. when he says he wants to be a dictator for a day. i don't think he will be a person who follows just democracy on day two. i worry about who he would appoint as a deputy attorney general. as the united states attorneys across the country and what would be the instructions he gave to those people? we might not have people like who were in the justice department before who told donald trump, no, we are not going to do this. they might be people who would follow his instructions and our democracy would be at risk. in the protecterring of the american many people and the use of the justice department to get at people's property. deprived of their liberty. i am really concerned about that. that is a factor the american people should take into consideration when they are making a determination about who they want to be president come november of 2024. >> what you describe is very specific in its nuance and need to be fleshed out more. who is the attorney general of the united states has a direct effect on so many factors. can you describe a little bit in terms of the role and how it would transform, we are not looking at things purely from the facts or the evidence burden and how to meet it. taking directives on who to prosecute from the president of the united states. >> sure, if the president told a compliant attorney general i don't like what this congressman said or did about me in the course of the last two or three years. whatever. open end investigation on that person. that attorney general could tell a compliant united states attorney to do just that. talk to liant fbi director who could be replaced by the president. to open an investigation and then to just look through that person's life. and look for anything that you possibly can find. and who is to say what you find in any person's life that might run afoul of the law and even beyond that. the more fact of an investigation of a person who is a public figure can be reputation ruining, can be politically damaging. not even if you find anything, just the fact that the investigation itself exists. if you have the full weight of the justice department and the presidency, the full weight of the fbi, focusing on somebody like that. that could be extremely damaging to not only that person individually, but to our democracy at large. >> you have an investigation actively right now. some investigations out there politically, that's the point you described. just enough seed planting to let something flourish. here are some seeds, you decide what to do with it. some would look at this issue in terms of hunter biden in particular and say well, there's been seeds planted. reputationally, it doesn't just damage him. we are less than a year away from a presidential election. does it damage joe biden to have these indictments against his son's specifically? >> that remains to be seen. the charges are against hunter biden. i have seen no indication there is any connection between the president and the actions for which his son has been charged. that doesn't mean they won't try to draw those connections. they have tried to weaponnize the justice department in ways inconsistent with the best traditions of the department. we'll have to see how successful they are. but again, i don't think there is any proof, any proof at this point that there is a connection between the allegations involving hunter biden and his father, the president of the united states. >> when you look at the process of appointing and confirming attorney general, there is the possibility that one could have a series of acting attorneys general who need not ever get the full stamp of approval from congress. is that possible here in any number of positions? >> sure. we have seen the former president do exactly that. he made that determination. wait a minute. i need not send people up to the senate to be confirmed. i can put them in acting positions and we saw a whole bunch of people in a variety of executive branch agencies who were acting and who have virtually the full power of any attorney general who might be confirmed. and so that is another way in which he can get around these american norms that have always kind of kept the justice department separate and apart from politics. >> well politics of course is out there. and one sure fire way to address it is through voting. democracy is not just in the voting, it's in the counting. when you count the number of people in different districts, you might add up to a lot of gerrymandering in this country and voting rights continue to be a very big passionate project for you. i look at this and say what must eric holder be thinking when you see the voting rights act of 1965 chopped away from the section 5 and gutting that formula that says which states have to have the preclearance? now to section two in saying only private litigants can bring these cases. no longer the naacp for example. or the different agencies. only doj can bring that. not private litigants. what do you say to that? >> well i'm concerned about what is being done to the voting rights act of 1965. the crown jewel of the civil rights movement. in 2013 there was the shelby county case that took away the preclearance authority. and now, out of the eighth circuit, there is this new theory that has been found 58 years into the existence of the voting rights acts. there have been about 185 successful cases brought under section 2. only 15 brought by the united states department of justice. about 90% of the successful cases brought by private litigants. they talk about these cases being brought by the government as well as by private litigants. you had a trump appointed judge in the eighth circuit in arkansas to say he brought this up before any of the parties raise. the private litigants cannot bring these cases. the litigants didn't raise this as a possibility. inconsistent with what the fifth circuit said just a few weeks before that. inconsistent with what two circuits have said about the ability of private litigants. so i'm very concerned about what they are trying to do to section two, one of the few remaining and vital parts of the voting rights act of 1965. >> georgia is on everyone's mind. one reason, the republican controlled legislature in georgia passed a new congressional map. this might sound similar to other cases as well. after the prior one violated the voting rights act. i wonder how the courts will start to approach these things if you see states saying thank you your honor, we will do what we want anyway. >> this is in some ways a sordid repeat of the history we have seen in the south before. where the executive branches and legislatures in the south just ignored court orders. the alabama case that said it was a racial gerrymandering in alabama. they tried to ignore the united states supreme court. and they had to be slapped down again. we are seeing the same thing in georgia. now they have tried to construct a system that shrinks the number of opportunity districts black people have to express themselves. inconsistent again with what the courts have said. so we have to be vigilant. with e have to have the courts on the side of the law and try to make sure that those in the legislative and executive branches don't do things that george wallace did back in 1960s or lester maddox. it is a sordid and painful and disgraceful history that republicans in the southern states are apparently comfortable with. >> this is all still a part of what's going on in our country. it is scary to think about the legislators saying it is easier to ask forgiveness than permission. please eric holder stick around. i want to ask you about the alarming rise of anti-semitism. we'll be back in a moment. >> let me be clear. when jews are targeted because of their beliefs or identity, and when israel is singled out because of anti-jewish hatred, that is anti-semitism and it must be condemned. and condndemned uneqequivocally withthout contexext. the president of the university of pennsylvania's job may very well be on the line. there are serious calls for her to resign. vying that contentious congressional hearing about anti-semitism on college campuses. the leaders of harvard, mit and u penn are facing intense scrutiny. here is what penn president liz mcgill had to say just on tuesday. >> at penn, does calling for the genocide of jews violate penn's rules or code of conduct, yes or no? >> if the speech turns into conduct, it can be harassment. yes. >> i'm asking specifically calling for the genocide of jews, does that constitute bullying or harassment? >> if it is directed in severe pervasive, it is harassment. >> so the answer is yes? >> it is a context dependent decision. >> mcgill released a video statement attempting to clarify what she meant. >> i was not focused on what i should have been. the irrefutable fact that a call for genocide of jewish people is a call for some of the most terrible violence human beings can perpetrate. it is evil. plain and simple. >> not sure if it's a day late and a dollar short. we'll have to wait and see. eric holder is gabbing with us now. i want to ask you about the nature of the hedging conversations or the mine field people are walking on even when it seems to be cases that are quite clear. is this about the battle of free speech or are people just unwilling to answer the yes and no? >> there is a free speech element but the question as posed was pretty easy to answer. any time anybody is advocating for the killing of any group based on race, religion, ethnicity. sexual orientation, that has to run afoul of some kind of norm, some kind of rule, some kind of prohibition that i would hope would exist in our institutions of higher education. so you know, i'm not sure why they answered the way in which they did. but i think their answers could have been a lot more clearer. >> now the ramifications of all this, it is also about a larger conversation happening nationally and globally. hate related speech can turn into hate related crimes and a general atmosphere of terror. there is a 28-year-old man in custody after allegedly saying free palestine, but then firing two shots from a shotgun outside an albany synagogue. i'm wondering from you about the rise in these kinds of attacks we have seen from director ray. talked about an exponential increase in antisemitic crimes. islamophobic crimes. is there a way to address and prosecute in an eye toward deterrence? >> it is all about deterrence. people can't do the things this 28-year-old allegedly did. to go outside a synagogue, fire a gun. that is a person that need to be held responsibility and made an example of. if people are allowed to do these things and go unpunished you will see repetition of those kinds of incidents but it also means people in positions of power have to watch the language they use. yeah, you can be against the positions of the netanyahu government but you don't have to go as far as some have gone with regard to things that i think move into anti-semitism. are national leaders more generally when it comes to hate filled speech and trying to demonize certain people, certain groups of people. trying to set us upon each other. all that leads to an atmosphere and environment which hate has a chance to grow and lone wolfs become energized. any prosecutor, the thing that worries you are the lone wolves that get energized. maybe the 28-year-old who heard somebody say something and decides he wants to take some kind of action. those are the things that give me concern. this is not a problem that cropped up overnight. >> ten years ago, talking to the adl, you had that speech to them. saying it would be naive to suggest it was all done. that was ten years ago and we are still here. >> these are problems long in the making and will take some time to resolve but they are problems that are susceptible to solutions. manmade problems that are susceptible to manmade and womanmade solutions. if we get to understand each other and respect each other, we can disagree with one another and do so in an appropriate way. >> really a pleasure to have you here and pick your brain general holder. >> thanks for having me. a texas woman having to sue to get an abortion. saying that her pregnancy is threatening her life. first, a judge ruled in her favor. but then, the state's attorney general weighed in. we'll tell you what happened next. the power goes out, and we still have wifi to do our homework. and that's a good thing? great in my book. who are you? no power? no problem. introducing storm-ready wifi. now you can stay reliably connected through power outages with unlimited cellular data and up to 4 hours of battery back-up. plus, now through december 31st, eligible xfinity rewards members can get 25% off a storm ready wifi device. dear moms and dads, what you have achieved here today is going to help us and our futures. it is why we're coming up on stage to collect your diplomas. mom, love you always. vo: when you graduate, they graduate. visit finishyourdiploma.org to find free and supportive adult education centers near you. well tonight, a texas judge has sided with a woman who sued to get an abortion for her high- risk pregnancy. kate cox who is 20 weeks pregnant filed a lawsuit this very week saying her unborn baby has a genetic condition and carrying the child to term could threaten her own life. her fetus is diagnosed with a chromosome anomaly that is typically fatal soon after or before birth. now ken paxton is threatening legal consequences for any doctor involved in providing the abortion. he says she failed to show she qualifies for the medical exception for the strict abortion ban after six weeks. t emergency as a life threating physical condition aggravated by, caused by, rising from a pregnancy that places the woman in danger of death or a serious risk of substantial impairment of a major bodily function unless an abortion is performed. i want to bring in a retired california superior court judge. judge, thank you so much for being here this evening. when we hear stories like this, and in many ways it was contemplated after the dobbs decision and even before. and the number one thing people point at is this idea of the definition of a medical emergency. who gets to decide that and who should it be? here it is a judge making the decisions. not just the doctor or the woman. is that what ought to happen here? >> first of all, these kinds of issues shouldn't even be in the court. it should be between the woman and her physician. but that is not the case in texas or other states so it becomes a question of fact. here ms. cox came to court and said will you please restrain the state of texas from banning an abortion from me. this is a very narrowly focused case. and so, the judge did what judges are supposed to do. the judge held an evidence hearing. and the state's attorney general had an opportunity and did present evidence and ms. cox presented the testimony of her own physician who gave a medical evaluation saying that this could be a medical exception because her life is at stake. literally life and death. so what the judge did was consider everything and came to a conclusion based on the facts and the law. the state of texas in this narrow instance should be restrained from keeping her from getting an abortion. and i will tell you, laura, that the most outrageous thing about this hearing and you mentioned it very briefly, you have two key players here. judge gamble who i found to be quite courageous and mr. paxton who i found to be entirely egregious. the judge made a valid order and that order is valid because it has not been overturned or reversed by an appellate court. and even though the judge issued a valid order, this man, mr. paxton, threatened and continues to prosecute anybody who follows the judge's order. the doctor, it could be the person who drives her to the hospital to have the procedure. he is basically threatening everyone. in my view, this is obstruction. it mounts to obstruction for which he should be held accountable. this man needs to be disciplined immediately for standing in the way of implementing the judge's order. >> it is such a methodical approach you have taken. the idea that a judge's order would not be followed for so many would seem egregious on its face, yet you enter into the controversy of abortion itself. and the terminology of how one comes to this conclusion. judge i want to focus on the vagueness for a judge to look at this statute that talks about medical emergencies. you say the testimony of her own doctor came in. you were a lawyer, you are a judge. you are not i'm assuming somebody who was a medical doctor as well who is relying on that aspect of your career. the vagueness of that term presents a lot of problems. is it to deter those from endeavoring to try? or is it supposed to be broad enough to enable more medical emergencies to be found? >> well i think first of all, that this legislation and the definition of medical emergency in texas, it was done by people who were inept. they were in a rush to do what they could to control women's bodies and came up with this language so the judge has to do her best to interpret this law and she did. and we know she did her best because she issued findings, she made findings of fact. there is no jury here. so the judge is both the jury as well. now, there may be an instance in this in texas where it is going to go up on appeal in terms of getting more clarity on what medical emergency means but i think the language is not that vague. i think the judge found correctly that ms. cox fit that's definition. her life is at stake and also as the judge made a finding, the possibility of her again being able to have children is jeopardized if she is not permitted to go forward with the abortion. and for mr. paxton and others who claim they are pro life, then why are they standing in the way of this woman who may not be able to give life again as a result of not being able to get an abortion? >> so thought provoking to think about this. one of the main issues i see is you have people who will say two things. she should go out of state if she needs this. but she should get care in her own state. but number two, this is just one person. you cannot decide issues like this i could assume on a case by case basis and have a universal standard applied. really important conversation with you tonight your honor. thank you so much. >> sure, thank you. an american is being held in venezuela more than six weeks. his family claims they were extorted for thousands of dollars to secure his relelease ththe family j joins me nenext. i want to bring all of your attention to an american being held in venezuela. you see him right there. his name is savoy wright. he was arrested on october 24th and is being charged with terrorism related offenses. but here's the catch. his family says he is being wrongfully detained and his family is being exauthoritied for thousands of dollars to secure his release. so what is being done to bring him home? motivated much. and that is because of the sour relationship between the united states and the leader of venezuela set to take over part of his oil rich neighborhood guyana. do not travel to venezuela due to crime, civil unrest, kidnapping and the arbitrary enforcement of local laws. unquote. other countries on that list include iraq, lebanon, russia, somalia, north korea, yemen, syria. now it is critical to note that savoy wright is not a celebrity, an athlete or anyone known to anyone of you. he is not a journalist. he is a regular american who according to his family was seemingly in the wrong place at the wrong time. his family joins me now. his mother erin stewart and his sister moise stewart. thank you for joining me this evening. this must be a particularly scary time to think about where he is, what could be happening and what would come next. if i could begin with you, erin. are you in touch with savoy at all? do you know where he is being held or how he is being treated? >> thank you, laura, for having us on. we really appreciate it. and for bringing light to savoy, to this situation. it is devastating. it's a nightmare beyond description. we do know that savoy is currently being held at dgcim, the government military intelligence. and we do know that he has not been treated well. this has been after he has been passed around from facility, government facility to facility. while being extorted and we know the condition theres are extreme. we know that savoi had passed out due to the abuse. and the neglect and taken to a medical facility. we know it is just a horrific situation for him. >> now when you talk about the abuse and all that is going on, perhaps the elephant in the room, are concerns this is a black man many this country. in this particular system. you have particular concerns as well about the fact that this is a black man in this prison and in this government custody. why did you raise it? >> we all know the inclination of one being a black male in the u.s. prison season let alone in south america. so our major concern is not just the treatment. we realize that since savoi has been in custody, we have been given the run around on so many levels. sovoi has been treated as a second class hostage by government officials. he is a normal guy. he is everything. it is imperative we bring light to the situation. his life matters, his safety matters and we want to make sure he is given the same treatment as other celebrities. as other people who had gotten designated. we are really pushing for and calling for savoi to be designated wrongfully detained. we know there are currently negotiations in process and we need him to be a part of that. >> the warnings against going to venezuela may have perked up a lot of ears to suggest he was there in that particular location. it does not change the fact you want him home. and doesn't change the fact that he is now facing terrorism charges there. he is accused of conspiring with venezuelan opposition members. now, you and i have spoken about this. does that sound like your son? or brother? >> that is not my son. my son is a 6' 10" gentle giant with the kindest heart and spirit. free spirit. loving spirit. loves life. loves people. loves culture which is why he is there. he fell in love with south america. fluent in spanish and portuguese, english. fell in love with venezuela you know. and so, the fact that they have now, savoi was kidnapped. he was kidnapped and he has been held for ransom. we have been extorted multiple times. >> he was interrogated. he was tested. he was cleared. not just one, but two facilities. and they were actually moving forward with the deportation process. at which time, you know, the military intelligence intervened and have now turned him into a political prisoner. which is just one of the points he needs to be eligible to be wrongfully detained. it is imperative that we give that the due process. we are pleading with the state department to do everything they can. it is imperative that secretary of state antony blinken sees this case and reviews it as soon as possible. savoi must be included. his life must matter and we must do everything in our power to ensure that happens. recently, the assistant secretary of state of the western hemisphere affairs, he referred to the four designated wrongfully detained americans so he can see how obvious it is. you have to prove that to our government what is so obvious. we provided them information. all the evidence. all of the receipts and the extortions and the texts. we showed them how savoi's human rights have been violated. he has not been allowed access to his attorney. he was put into a forced disappearance four weeks. >> in solitary confinement. >> he checks off so many boxes and yet everyone is somehow dumbfounded. >> bureaucracy. >> about why, whether or not he meets this criteria. >> i'm sorry ma'am, i didn't want to cut you off. people are probably wondering where the state department is and what they said about this. a spokesperson is telling cnn they are aware of reportrts tha savoi was arrested in venezuela. and also, for privacy, safety, and operational reasons, we do not always make wrongful detention determinations public. do not comment on publications or discuss any details of internallprocesses. well i hope you are being made aware of all that is being done to help your son. i'm so sorry to hear about what's going on. >> thank you so much for the time and thank you for caring. we value you. thank you. >> we appreciate you so much. >> thank you so much. we'll be r right back.k. well, we started the new program with new charges against the current president's son. and we'll finish it with the civil charges against the previous president. donald trump is set to take the stand in his quarter of a billion dollar civil fraud trial on monday in new york city. that didn't stop him speaking his mind launching into a very familiar refrain. >> there is not a judge in the country that wouldn't have given us a total victory. but there is not a judge in the country that would have taken this case. this is a witch hunt and it is a very corrupt trial. >> well if you had witch hunt on your bingo card, you win. it also seems to be the free space because it is always mentioned. and while the former president may want to take the stand, his lawyer, well, they may have a different idea. >> he still wants to take the stand. even though my advice at this point is you should never take the stand with a gag order but he is so firmly against what is happening in this court. >> we will cover it all right here on cnn. thank you for watchihing. our r coverage c continues. .

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