Transcripts For CNNW Fareed 20240702 : comparemela.com

Transcripts For CNNW Fareed 20240702



this is "gps," the global public square. welcome to you in the united states and around the world. i'm fareed zakaria coming to you live from new york. today on the program, after seven days, the truce between israel and hamas is over and the war is back on. i'll ask a former idf officer whether israel's tactics will change in this phase. will it be more precise, more careful about civilian casualties as the united states has asked? and then i will talk to a man who knows the casualties well. a british palestinian surgeon who has worked in gaza hospitals during the war. finally, the death of america's most famous 20th century statesman, henry kissinger. i will talk to his biographer niall ferguson how he changed the world for better and for worse. but first, here is my take. henry kissinger, who died this week at 100 years old, may have been the most famous foreign policy practitioner in modern american history. but he practiced for just eight of the hundred years. he left office as secretary of state nearly half a century ago. and yet admired or despised, he managed to hold the world's attention long after his power waned. what explained this remarkable run? he was that rare breed. a doer and a thinker. someone who shaped the world with ideas and action. first, his accomplishments. kissinger presided over a pivotal moment in the cold war. when it looked to much of the world like america was losing. the united states was in fact losing a hot war in vietnam, the first major defeat in its history on which it had staked its reputation over four administrations. the soviet union was on the offensive, building up a massive nuclear arsenal and gaining allies across the world. by the end of his eight years in office, things look different. the vietnam war as over, the soviet unions forward momentum had been thwarted by a diplomatic coup and the opening of relations between washington and beijing. that one stroke moves china, the second most important communist power out of the camp. and simultaneously negotiations yielded major arms control agreements. in the middle east, moscow's long-standing ally egypt expelled its russian advisers moved into the american orbit and began negotiating with israel. ape process that culminated some years later in the first peace treaty between an arab country and israel. kissinger was behind each of those four achievements. everything he did was surrounded by controversy. the right blasted him for the opening to china which was seen as a betrayal of taiwan. conservatives also hated the day taunt with moscow and with obsession of credibility, kissinger dragged out the vietnam negotiations for far too long, signing a deal in 1973 that was not to different from the one that he could have accepted in 1969 that would have spared the lives of attorneys of thousands of americans and hundreds of thousands of vietnamese and cambodians. he presided over hassan in when became bangladesh was a abomination and a failure. the bombing caused untold human suffering and distorted the politics of the region for decades. his disregard for human rights in places like chile and indonesia left a long shadow over america's reputation. he was the first jewish secretary of state and the first immigrant to ascend to that office. that background shaped his world view. though he spoke about it rarely. i grew up in germany as hitler came to power and watched what was perhaps the most advanced and civilized nation in the world device mass murder. he was too suspicious of democracy and human rights because he had seen demagogues like hitler rise to power through elections. he often remarked attributing it to gutter, that between order and juster, he would choose order. because once chaos rains, there is no possibility for justice. i met him first three decades ago and over the years go the to know him quite well. we had both ben graduate students in the same department at the same university and many of his colleagues had been my professors. he was a complicated man. warm, witty, proud, thin-skinned and paranoid and deeply curious and intellectually serious about the world. he was the only global celebrity that i met with the lights dimmed, retreated to his library to read the latest biography of stalin or reread spinossa. he was seen as a loan cowboy pursuing his mission. the image of kissinger as cowboy might seep odd, but he was about being on the american strategic landscape. in a country of optimistics, henry kissinger was a european pessimist. he began his career worrying about nuclear weapons and over the years he would speculate gloom illy that japan would become a nuclear power and that europe would fall apart and islamic extremism would triumph. in our last lunch, he worried about israel's ability to survive in the long run. from start to finish, over a century, henry kissinger's abiding fur was that disruptive forces set in motion to rip off the thin veneer and pushing us into the abyss like the one of which he came of age. go to cnn.com/foreed for a link to my column this week. and let's get started. ♪ the delicate seven-day truce came to an end on friday as israel accused hamas of air strikes. they have released over 100 hostages while israel released almost 250 palestinians. now, israel isn't just fighting hamas, it is also trading fire with hezbollah, the iranian-backed militant group based in lebanon. cnn correspondent ivan watson is in southeastern lebanon with the latest on that front. tell us, is there a kind of escalation, because so far what has been striking is, despite many fears, both hezbollah and iran seem to have been fairly restrained. so if there is some heating up here, how did -- who is escalating on which side of the border? >> well since the truce ended in gaza, that truce was applied to some degree here ang lo the border between lebanon and israel. and since the fighting resumed in gaza, this kind of artillery duel has resumed. so just where i am, i've been hearing the thud of incoming isr israeli artillery. there was a blast, a strike about an hour and a half ago that shook the building i'm in and frightened some of the remaining residents in the surrounding villages. some of whom said they've never felt an israeli strike this close to this area. it has not been of the same intensity of the fighting that you've seen in gaza. in part because this area is not nearly as densely populated. the villages around here are largely evacuated. the buildings are closed right now. the civilians do have places to run to. but it is right, you've pointed out, we have not seen the war on this border, the conflict escalate to the levels that we saw in 2006 when israel was bombing targets in beirut and triggering a max exodus by sea out of lebanon. that said, it has been deadly in the first month and a half here. at least 100 people killed on this side of the border. the majority of them hezbollah fighters but also more than a dozen civilians including journalists. so this is something to watch closely right now because there are fears, i think on both sides of the border, that this could ramp up. and lebanon is fnot in any position to sustain a war. it is in political crisis. it hasn't had a president in more than a year. it has an acting prime minister. and it is still reeling from a devastating economic crisis which the world bank described as one of the world in the world since the 19th century where last year you had 30% unemployment, and from 2019 to 2021, gdp per capita shrunk some 36%. so anecdotally while many lebanese have a lot of sympathy for gaza civilians, i think there is very little appetite for a full fledged war. and even though kind of low level conflict that we're seeing along the border is having an impact on lebanon's economy. this is a time when tourists come in ahead of the christmas holidays and we're not seeing that right now because of the fear. if anything, people are leaving lebanon because they're afraid this could escalate further. >> fascinating. thank you so much. stay safe. next on gps, i'll talk to a colonel about israel's main war in gaza. w what is the strategy there? we'll l find out.. french president emmanuel macron say that israeli leaders need to define their goal because the dotal destruction of hamas would mean the war will last ten years. vice president kamala harris said israel must do more to protect innocent civilians. so as israel resumes the offensive in gaza, what is its strategy and will it heed america's call to safeguard civilian lives. i'm joined by miri eisin and director of the international institute for counter-terrorism. miri, welcome. so if you were in response to define israel's strategy, how would you describe it? >> destroying hamas is very challenging as he said. but what the israeli strategy is, is we're focusing on their military terror capabilities. that is actually something that you could break down in a very specific way. you're going after 16 years of building positions, accumulating weapons, building the subterranean arena and training these different thousands of terrorists and that is what israel is doing with the military capability. it goes hand in hand with the diplomacy, because of the issue of the hostages, you want to try to get to the hostages, that is part of the picture. but it is most definitely focusing on destroying military capabilities and thinking about that next day of what will come instead. >> so if it is focused on destroying those specific military capabilities presumably these are tunnels, these are passage ways, these are weapons caches. shouldn't there be a greater emphasize on sending in idf special forces rather than what appears to be a kind of a more carpet bombing approach? in other words, i know that is putting forces in harm's way but that is a more precise tactical way. and this is something that the u.s. discovered in iraq. you have to send special forces in rather than just bombing the entire neighborhood to smithereens. >> you could say in that sense, that what we doing in the three weeks of the ground offensives is what you're talking about. but it is not only special forces. it is a combination of different type of infantry forces because you need to go into urban area, very densely populated. the first thing that israel did before we went into the ground operation is we were telling civilians, please move. go to the areas that we defined to save your lives. your going into urban areas that are still unhappily filled with civilians and so when i say systematically and slowly, you're going in to make sure that you never target civilians but you could get to the different positions that are built into apartment buildings, into mosques, into schools, into kindergartens, so you need the forces on the ground to do that. you need a large portion of forces to be able to detect the shafts to go into that subterranean arena, you have to have forces on the ground, it is a combination of special forces together with the different types of infantry of engineering corp that could go in and blow up those tunnels. and all of this, fareed, where we all know, there is the challenge that the hostages themselves are most likely held mainly inside of the tunnels so you could have to do everything systematically and slowly. i know it seems like we're doing it from the air. it is very much on the ground. we were still on the ground in this week of the -- of the pause which was done to get out our hostages as much as possible. but it is taking it systematically and slowly to save the civilian lives, we need to do so, not just for us, but it is the right thing to do but because at the end of the day, the civilians in the gaza strip deserve a much better future than one where hamas rules. >> the reason i think many people think it is been a war mainly from the idf own numbers, the number of bombs it has dropped in northern gaza far exceeds what the u.s. dropped in afghanistan over four or five years. so when you look at southern gaza, i'm wondering, you've already moved a million people into that area. so now it is twice as densely populated as it was. how will you manage this balance? is there a different more precise, more targeted approach orks is there going to be a replay of what we saw over the last 45 days? >> the biggest challenge in that sense is the way that the terrorists themselves, over 16 years, embedded themselves and built themselves all of the different positions within the urban area underneath in that that subterranean arena. and it is a larger amount of people. as we told people to go from the north to the south and we've been doing that again. telling people in the area of eunice, where to go to save their lives. doesn't make it easy. doesn't make it pretty. how do you change in that sense? you do it carefully, with as much information as you can have. the information is not from the air, per se, you need to go in and to start it. i don't think in that sense that my biggest challenge for me as an israeli is that i can't leave the hamas there in any way. what they built there over 16 years is something that threatens our existence, in the fact that if this type of terror organization could do so, embedded in the population, this is a threat for the entire middle east. so we will go in, we will try to be as exact as possible. and i say it not just for myself, but for my kids who are the ones who need to do that kind of targeting we're talking about israeli soldiers who have to make these decisions, you never target civilians, but the entire gaza arena is urban warfare and that is the biggest challenge there is. slow, systematic, careful. >> miri eisin, thank you so much. next on "gps", we'll bring you a picture of the toll the war is taking on gaza civilians. i'll talk to a surgeon who has just returned from 43 days in operating rooms in the gaza strip. you're probably not easily persuaded to switch mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? it's true. plus when you buy your first line of mobile, you get a second line free. there are no term contracts or line activation fees. and you can bring your own device. oh, and all on the most reliable 5g mobile network nationwide. wireless that works for you. it's not just possible, it's happening. israel has issued new evacuation orders similar to the ones they gave in october before the ground invasion of northern gaza. this is prompted fears that a new brutal campaign may be imminent in the south. joining me now is a man who has seen for himself the devastating effects of the war in gaza on civilians. dr. ghassan abu sittah is a reconstructive surgeon who returned to the u.k. last week from 43 days in the gaza strip, operating at the al shiva and arab hospitals and he's given what he alleged are war crimes. welcome. let me ask you. you have treated wounded civilians in the wars in iraq, in yemen, in syria, and in the wars in gaza, i think everyone since the second infadda. i'm wonder how what you're seeing now compares to what you have seen in the past? oh, i think we've lost him. no, there we are. >> for me -- >> please go ahead, sir. >> i can't, the volume is really low. but if i understand your question about the difference between the two experiences, it is really the difference between -- i've never experienced something of this magnitude. the idea that you would be operating for 43 days and 50% of those that were operating on were children. the sheer number, the magnitude of all of the injuries and the killing was like nothing i've ever seen before. >> and what about the facilities, were they getting better? were he finding it was possible to get power, to get medical supplies or are things getting worse? >> every day, was worse than the day before. we were running out of antiseptic solutions, special dressings. but by the end, we had run out of morphine, we had run out of ketamine that we used to anesthetize people and doing dressings to keep wounds clean but nothing but -- but no ketamine as it ran out. the day that i decided to leave and literally that time at 5:00 minute morning, we ran out of the anesthetic medication. we're no longer able to treat any of the patients and in the o.r. >> do you worry that with these operations in southern gaza, that there could actually be a total collapse of the health care, the hospital system itself? >> the thing about southern gaza is it only had between a third and a quarter of all of the beds in the gaza strip. and with the doubling of its population, and now the sheer number of wounded, when i moved to the south the last two days, i felt completely helpless. there was no way of getting in patients to the operating rooms, and it was such a pressure on the operating rooms and there were so few operating rooms. that is why i decided to leave gaza. because a surgeon, i had become redundant and the systems had collapsed so much. and it is really just -- it is the end of anybody who gets wounded and the wounds are stacking up because as things stand, that system is incapable of dealing with the injury. >> dr. abu sittah, you know that you were in al shiva hospital, you were operating there. you know that the israeli government said that this was a key headquarters for hamas, or a controlled center for hamas. did you see anything there? do you have any comment on that israeli allegation? >> first of all, that does not -- i mean, so, the whole narrative about al shifa, it is from the fact that the whole system was attacked and dismantled. before they got to al shifa, they dismantled four pediatric hospitals. they had attacked and since then -- so saying that the health system failed, it is being dismantled. when i was at al shifa, had come across any armed, i would walk freely i was trying to do the dressings as we were running out of them and would go around the hospital trying to get what i needed from other departments and other operating rooms. but did i see an area that looks out of bounds and i've been down to the radiology department to get radiology to comment on some ct scans of my patients. still, i could not see anything. actually, i take to the realization, because we weren't getting any men fighting. i came to the realize is it was a military medical system. even the wounded that we were getting were all civilian and we weren't getting any that were being moved. so it was obvious that there was a parallel system that existed. but in al shifa hospital, even the policemen who were trying to maintain crowd control in front of the emergency department so that the relatives would not completely overrun the emergency department, they had weapons. >> thank you so much, dr. abu sittah. pl pleased to hear from you even though it was a grim message. next on gps, how did israeli and palestinians feel about each other and about hamas and prospects for peace. we have some fascinating answers from important surveys when we come back. so how do the palestinians feel about hamas? about israel and the prospects for peace. my next guest has the answers. amaney jamal is the dean of princeton school of public and international affairs and also a founder and principal investigators of the arab barometer, a polling organization. her most recent survey completed on the eve of the hamas attacks ploe provides a snapshot of people with their leaders. we're here to discuss the broader changes in public opinion across the middle east. pleasure to have you on. >> pleasure is plien. thank you for have me. >> let me start by asking you a question that i often get asked. what does it mean that the palestinians elected hamas? how much weight should you put on that statement? >> well, that is a really good question. fareed, when you think about what is

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