half an hour and they have been taking breaks? >> that is true. they have been brief breaks, but as we have seen in the past week, they have been taking a length of a break between 11:00 and 11:30, but we don't know the motivation of this break yet. >> over to kaitlan collins on the courthouse steps. kaitlan? >> i think that this is going as poorly as it could potentially go. no one thought that it would go well with donald trump on the stand, but the fact that they have taken a break, and they are less than an hour into the testimony and the judge has repeatedly admonished trump and just threatened to remove him from the witness stand and said that he would draw every negative inference that he could, that is not good. that is essentially trump not appearing or taking the fifth, because the judge's discretion here is quite high in making the determination, and the highest actually in making the determination of what these damages are going to look like, because at the heart of the case, what has been decided is already known here that trump is liable for fraud, and the question is how liable, and how much he is going to have to pay here. and this is threatening everything that he has ever had, his entire real estate empire here, and you have just saw trump walk out of the courtroom, and he did not speak when the reporter asked how it was going in there and he made the motion to zip his lips, but that is not what happened on the witness stand, and to the incredible frustration to the judge who was telling trump's attorney and trump, himself, just answer the question yes or no here, and trump was not doing that. and they are now in the 15-minute break, and the question is how much longer trump is going to be on the witness stand, because the judge here is clearly how fed up he is answering or not answering questions, and paula, them taking a break here is the sign that the judge is really considering or reconsidering what the rest of the day is going to look like. >> there's a choice here that the former president and the judge had to make. they each had to decide how they were going to handle today's hearing. we knew that it was going to be dicey in parts, but this has been far more of a mess than i had anticipated and the former president clearly, he does not want to answer the questions concisely as the judge has directed him to do, and the judge is making a choice to admonish trump every single time he goes off script. the former president is notoriously long-winded, and this is also an issue with the two sons testifying when the yes or no questions would result in a rambling speech. but each of the interruptions by the judge sometimes setting off debates with counsel as well just extends the amount of time that it is taking to get to the heart of this case. to get to questions about valuation, to get to actually gather evidence to determine the penalties in the case. so it is really unclear why the former president is taking this particular pursuit. i guess it is clear that he is trying to turn it into a political event, right. the legal interests would be served by being brief, being concise and sticking to the script, but politically, he wants to be a martyr, and the judge is continually cutting him off, and the headline so far is that the judge via trump, and for trump, that is advantageous, but legally, if the judge dismisses him and draws inferences, that could spell some peril for the former president. >> that is -- if he does that, and that is the judge's decision here, and this is the worst way that this day could have gone for donald trump as how much he could be responsible for in terms of the daniels here. >> right, that is where the legal and the political diverge for him. legally, horrible, and looking at the penalties and the ability of his business to operate in the state of new york, and the family's livelihood and the identity, and he is also a candidate for the white house, and he appears to believe that the best way to handle this politically is to continue to antagonize and paint himself as a martyr, and the victim of political bias, and he has taken on the judge directly and repeatedly throughout the hearing and that is a choice, and legally may not have a great result, but politically, this appears to be the direction that he wanted to take. again, we were not sure at the beginning of the day how it would go, and so far, hate bz an mess both for the attorney general's office, because they are not getting evidence, and trump could be in additional legal peril, and the judge does not appear to have control over this witness. >> john and kate, they are on a 15-minute break and we will see what happens on the other side of that once trump is back in the courtroom and he just left there a few moments ago. >> 10 minutes back at it, and what we are back at, it is very unclear how this is unfolding. jeremy soland, if you are chris kise, the lead attorney for donald trump in the courtroom, what are you trying to do in this break? what are you -- are you thinking that it is going well in this upside down world of donald trump in the world of political world of donald trump maybe part of the strategy? >> if i am protecting my client in the courtroom, i am reminding my client that this is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and this is a much lower standard of the preponderance of the evidence, and if you say i don't recall, but you are not alienating the judge or adversely impacting the credibility, the attorney general's office is going to get much of the evidence in through other means or other people, and so in the end, you are harming yourself, and yes, you may win the battle of public opinion, and get great campaign donation, but at the end of the day, it is not about that, but civil case and exposure, and i am trying to rail the client back in and put him on the tight leash and not let him hang himself proverbally, because i would be concerned because this judge is going to make a determination, and if i were judge engorron, i would give him ample space and allow him to do what he wants to do, and pull it, but it is too early, and hopefully it is a little bit more calm. >> one more point to make here, both paula and jeremy are saying that what he is doing is for political gain, and maybe it does help in the primary, but in a new polling out today, that losses in the courtroom could hurt donald trump. the numbers that you are looking at from the screen are six battleground states, and currently, he leads joe biden in six of the battleground states, but if he is convicted, this question was specifically about the election fraud trial, the federal case, but if he is convicted in that, trump is, then biden leads by nine points in these six states, and so it is a 12-point political swing if these cases start to go against him. so just because trump thinks it is helping politically, it does not make it so. back to the legal here. negative inference, and the judge just threatened to take a negative inference from trump's testimony today. does that mean that basically his time was that trump lost his time on the stand, and is that a fair way to look at it? >> if it comes to this, and this is pointing up nicely a difficult decision that the judge is going to have to make. and one hour in, and all heck has broken loose, and the judge has two options. one he can continue to admonish, and instruct, and ask chris kise to control and keep up with that, and the other is what you said, the actual remedy with teeth, and say, i will end this, and i will draw every inference and assume the worst about what every one of your answers would be. if i am the judge i am going to say, is this is going to be better? realistically, is donald trump going to say, well, i thought about it at the break, and bring it back in or is this going to keep going, and it is a difficult decision for the judge? can he pull the plug? because he has the power to do that. >> and back over to kristen holmes outside of trump tower and two things kristen, everything that you have heard about the preparation leading up to this, and trump's team leading up to this, and we have heard from the judge one day with this witness, and you have been reporting about if this is perchance going to extend because of the disaster they are seeing playing out in the courtroom, how that does hit up against the political calendar that donald trump has planned. >> well, that right, because tomorrow, court is closed because it is election day, and wednesday, trump has a big political event. he is hosting rally outside of miami to counter program the republican debate. and this is what we are likely to see is a juggling act between the multiple trial appearances and actually trying to run a campaign. now, i do want to go back to the first thing that you asked me there which is what is donald trump doing. i think that when you are really watch what he is saying here, he is trying to use the court of public opinion, and he knows that people are watching this, and obviously, we are not watching on the cameras, but we have reporters in the room, and he is putting the narrative out there on the stand. he is not answering yes or no, and as noted by paula and kaitlan, that is standard for him. and also, putting it in the political light that this trial is unfair, and the judge is unfair and they will rule against him as they always do, and those are the things that he says in private and public and that is the way he tries to spin all of this. now, we were not anticipating that this is exactly how it would go, and i don't think that anyone was anticipating that, however, we did believe that he would try to do this in front of the cameras, and turns out also in front of the courtroom. back to, again, this is a big balancing act for donald trump and the campaign team. they are all looking at how is it going to be looking as he is running for president in 2024 and he is balancing back and forth between these different trial dates. i am told that this is essentially going to mean that the campaign team and the political team and the legal team are going to work hand in hand and when potentially he has to sit in on various trials and then trying to work the campaign events around that, but if this is going to spill over into wednesday as you said, this is an opportunity that donald trump's team will take to say that this is going to interfere with his campaigning in 2024. then they will use that to perpetuate the argument that they continue to make that this is election interference, but it is really going to be, kate, the first time that we are seeing the lining up of him having to appear in court and then having a campaign event. that is the first time if this is going to spill over into wednesday and it is an idea of how the lines have been blurred between what is his legal strategy and what is the political strategy. >> again, what we have seen in the courtroom is a lot of tension between the judge and donald trump who is testifying under oath on the stand, and karen, one of things that you said to watch for is trump as a witness is trying to goad this judge into what is called reversible errors. now we have a limited window, because we don't have them mm k- the cameras in the courthouse, and being read to us by people inside of the courtroom, but anything close to a reversible error today? >> well, it is difficult without the record, and hopefully the judge has made a strong record, and because it is a bench trial, he has to give trump leeway to say what he wants to say, and make him just say, hang himself if you will. but he has to let him speak at, on some level and make a strong record if he does not that to preserve it. we will see when we can actually read the transcripts of what was sa said. >> some security going in and maybe donald trump going back in, and the negative inference and i will talk about -- you see something there? >> it is getting to the point that karen is making and you are making -- >> here is trump right now. >> thumbs up, and here he goes. more word from inside of the court and as you saw the doors open, i saw letitia james sitting right there. go ahead, john. >> i am not here to hear what he had to say the judge said raising his voice and telling attorneys to sit down, we aare here to hear him answering questions and most of the time he is not. >> this is the -- don't forget this is the attorney general's case, and they are putting on a case, and they are establishing facts, and they need evidence from witnesses, and they have called donald trump to the stand as a witness, as a fact witness. so, if i were the assistant attorney general, i would be frustrated that he is not answering questions, and he is answering what he wants to say. >> one thing that we are missing is -- i mean, we have a little bit about what he knows and didn't note and in terms of the familiarity with the financial statements, but since the last time that we talked about it, it has been just donald trump going off essentially of how unfair the trial is, and not getting the opportunity to get him on the record on these things. >> another possibility is let him speak. then if i am again, the assistant attorney general just ask him pointed questions and let him say what he wants to say, and did you sign this? is this your name, and get him out, and control him a little bit. >> sometimes it is in the question and not even the answer is how it is setting up. >> you do need the answer to make it for the record to be clear, but let's just hope that the judge is making appropriate record if he does decide to sanction him this way. >> and donald trump is back in the courtroom, and the testimony could resume any second, and the live coverage continues right after this. the break is over and donald trump is back on the witness stand testifying in the civil fraud trial against him. let's get right to the courthouse steps. paula reid is there. they came off of the 15-minute break and back answering questions, paula, and what difference did that 15 minutes make, and where do things stand now? >> it is not looking like the break made much difference at all. we are getting the live updates from inside of the courtroom from our colleagues kara s scannell and another peer. and so he was launching into a speech, and the judge said, do not launch into essays or speeches. this break gave everyone a chance to reflect on how they have proceeded so far in the court proceedings, and the judge has a chance to give trump more leeway here, and that is what the trump's lawyers have asked to have the man be heard. the government and lawyers have a way to change up the way they have been questioning witness, and of course, trump has the option to be more deferential to the judge. so far he does not seem to be changing way he has been approaching this. the judge, it does not appear so far has admonished him, but we are watching and waiting to see if anyone in this courtroom used that break as a chance to change up the strategy or if this is going to continue to devolve into what it has been so far which is chaos. kaitlan, there are no winners here, right. the government is not getting any answers, really, any evidence. the judge has lost control of the courtroom, and politically, some of it could play to his base, but politically, he is expanding the peril. >> i am looking to see if trump is going to change the way he has answered the questions or the attorneys have changed the way they are running interference between trump and the judge after the 15-minute break. and i don't think that it went the full 15 minutes. trump did not speak the way he did notably before he went n and attacking attorney general, but he said nothing on the way in or out, and gave the thumbs up as he returned. and this is the question here. because trump does not listen to attorneys and takes their advice, and former attorneys would admit to that, and so that is the question here. also, they may see a strategy in this in that it is very clear they are going to appeal this decision, and so they have basically telegraphed that in the other testimonies that have happened, and so the question is, if they are goading the judge essentially to revealing his frustrations which he has multiple times which are on the record, and how does an appellant court hear that and do they believe it has influenced the decision-making here, and this is a strategy that chris kise and others are making here. >> and that is why it is key here with the live updates from the colleagues inside of the courtroom here on the phones here, to see if there is any change, and i think that if we don't see any change of strategy from the former president, then it is clear that they are all over the same page, and the attorneys are endorsing this approach for future appeal or just to try to prevent really this from being any way construction for the attorney general's office, and for the judge to suggest that he could draw any negative inference and that is the worst thing that could happen to trump. it is effectively saying that the testimony went as poorly for him as it possibly could. we will see so far, because no real updates or significant change, but we will be watching to see how trump proceeds going forward. >> yeah, john and kate, it is a major question of the the temperature is taken down going forward and it has not been that way going forward, and we will watching closely. >> we will get back to you closely. and karen, one question after this break of donald trump and the team, and how they would approach it, but also, if you are the assistant attorney general, how do you change your approach if you are trying to get some questions answered here? >> i think that i would try to figure out what are the essential facts that i really need and want his attorney for. then just ask them very directly and pointedly, and clearly yes and no answers, and try to keep a tight rein on him, because otherwise, if you are asking him an open ended question, that is the opportunity to make a speech about whatever he wants. and so, were you the president of the trump organization, yes nor. que -- yes or no -- questions like that. >> read some of the quotes here as i am going through the order, and full screen 11, and this is the idea to the judge trying to control the courtroom, and the judge says to trump's lawyers -- this is different. this is the attorneys saying -- let me read what is up on the screen. this is the judge saying to the attorneys, i would urge you have to take in all of the information possible including with all of the numbers, and with this witness it is far more efficient to listen to what he has to say and take it in, and the response is that he is not being responsive and that he is making statements about other things. that is trump's attorneys there. and the judge, and what people are focused on, i beseech you to control him, and if you can't, i will. i will excuse him, and draw every negative inference that i can, and do you understand that? >> there is an interesting conversation about donald trump between his lawyer and the judge with donald trump right there. the lawyer, chris kise saying, just let him talk, and he will talk himself out, and the way that it is with a temper tantrum, and you are making it worse if you intercede, but the judge is saying, i am not sitting here silent, and the judge has explicitly said, this is what i can do and might do if you keep this up, and i will essentially put an end to this, and assume the absolute worst of everything that you would have testified. to i do want to say that if i am one of the assistant ags on this case, i do not want the judge to do that. >> you don't want the judge to shut him down. >> why? >> because it is an appeal issue, and if the judge says i am taking drastic step -- >> but if he is not answering your questions? >> let the day run out, and lay low as the assistant ag and let the judge and trump's lawyers go at it, because other than what i am seeing here, i don't see any appeal issue here, and based on what we are hearing, nothing that is happening thus far is reversible error, but if the judge takes the drastic set of day over, and i will assume the worst and i am not saying reversed on appeal, it is appeal issue, and if i am the ag, i say go at it, and get out of it safely. >> and another reason to go at it, if he were called for defense witness, he could say a lot of what he wants to say, and the reason he is shutdown is because he is not answering assistant ag's questions, but it is a bechb nch trial, and if hee called from the other side, and the plaintiff rests and the ag rests and i call to the stand donald trump. they could say, what did you want to say about this. and he could go on and on and on, so it is a little few utile try to shut him down now. >> and so, on the margins, he is asked -- >> yeah, in between the speeches. >> and working with alan weissleburg on the financial statements. and he said, i did look it over, and you said it is not important financially, but i did look it over. and this is full screen eight there, if you want to put it up, and that is admitting that he had some contact with some of the statements. >> exactly. >> and what this case is about. >> yeah. this is very, and he is making some very important admissions here. very distinct from what his two sons have testified to which is no, we relied on the experts, and they did the valuations. donald trump has admitted here, no, that is undervalued, i saw that and i think it is undervalued, and i saw that and i gave them that information and there are some admissions that are valuable to the attorney general. >> and so two examples of the state of where we are right now, and full screen three, i would look at them, meaning the financial statements, and i would see them, and i would maybe on occasion have some suggests, but then getting back to full screen 10, this is a very unfair trial, very, very, and i hope that the public is watching. that kind of thing. the two ends of bookends of what we are seeing play out in real time. >> and the more the judge does not let him talk, the more he can say that. >> we will take a quick break, and much more coming from inside of the courtroom, and donald trump on the stand as we speak. we will be right back. c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. all right. we are now back. let's get back to outside of the courtroom and new details coming in from inside as donald trump is still on the stand. kaitlan collins is standing by. what is the latest? >> yeah. trump is back on the witness stand. things are moving along, and we are not seeing the judge stop the former president as much as he was in the previous hour before they took the break. but what they are talking about right now is the heart of why he is on the witness stand and whether or not how much he inflated the assets and inflated the net worth in order to secure more favorable loan terms, and they are talking about the 2021 financial statements from the former president, and what he said as an aside on the stand saying that he was busy protecting the country from china and russia as the time of a president, and that may lead to more questions of when the statements were prepared, because he was not in the white house in 2021, but that is something that he referenced there, and talking about the time when he was in the white house, and how he had put his finances essentially in a trust. and obviously donald trump jr. and eric testifying earlier being a part of that and he referenced alan weissleburg, and what is at the heart here, and what most people, elie and karen would agree is the most egregious overinflations of something that he owns is the apartment in trump tower, and how big it is, and how much the square footage is. i believe it is put 30,000 square feet, when in reality it is 11,000 square feet. that is something they are talking about right now which is the valuation on that, and when those numbers were changed and who was involved in that. trump said that he did acknowledge that he was involved in that to some degree, and some progress on the questions being asked in the heart of the matter, and how much was this inflate and the numbers and whether it was done at the direction of donald trump. >> i think that paula reid is there with you, kaitlan, and may have some of the exact lines that were used, because i think that this is an enormous amount of interest in the valuation and the square footage of the apartment in trump tower specifically what he is saying and how he is explaining that, paula? >> so, we are looking for a few different quotes here. we are getting these live updates from our colleagues inside the courtroom, and in one place trump says that the difference of costs could be explained by roof access and that the original estmate is not that far off. now he says that they could have made a mistake and that is why they have this disclaimer in these valuations, and this is something that the lawyers ra tried to get him to focus on, because this disclaimer said that bank, insurance company, and they should do their own due diligence and not just rely on the valuations, and this is part of the legal strategy and defense here. he also made though a little bit of the snarky aside saying, quote, there is a disclaimer clause where you don't have to be sued by the attorney general of new york. and i will note that the judge is not interrupting trump as often as he did even though he veered off a little bit in the answer there, the judge did not pounce, and that change-up in the strategy which is a little bit of the change in the judge's strategy is helping the questions to move along, and trump is not concise, but it is helping the line of questioning and the attorney general to get through more questions, so that is the biggest change that we have seen since everyone took the break is that the judge appears to let trump speak a little bit longer. >> so interesting. talk about this, because it is called worthless clause which i have been fascinated in learning more about in what this disclaimer and how much weight they can put in it, and is it an actual defense, and it seems that in the past, they have tried to make it a catch-all inoculation from any responsibility. what is the role of it that it could play here, and the disclaimer on the financial forms saying that you cannot trust any of this, any bank, any lender, and you need to do your own homework on the math. >> and the judge in the pretrial writings said that it is the worthless clause, and therefore, you are immune from any legal consequence, and this example that kaitlan and paula talked about the valuation of the trump tower is the cleanest and the strongest piece of evidence in the ag's case here, because if you are talking about what is the value of mar-a-lago, and reasonable minds can differ, and some subjectivity to it, but how large was your apartment, that is a math problem. the question i had is if donald trump is going to defend that overinflation saying it is 30,000 when it was 10,000 or deny the responsibility. and it sounds like both. when he says, well, that might count the rooftop, and not super compelling, but it is a defense, and the they, the appraisers, they could have made a mistake inside, and sort of denying knowledge. so he is trying to have it both ways on this one. >> and now, we understand that he is also being asked about mar-a-lago, and this is important. this is maybe important in the public sphere than the exact case itself, because he has a wildly different view of the value of mar-a-lago than what has been mentioned over the course of the case, and paula reid, what are you hearing? >> well, we knew this was going to be a sensitive subject for trump. he spoke about it before today's hearing even got under way. he has highlighted the fact that the judge has relied on an $18 million valuation for mar-a-lago, and that is a valuation based on a tax assessor's appraisal, but trump and the attorneys have attacked that. one of the attorneys elena has been -- habba as said it is $1 million and mona lisa property, and questioned on the stand, trump was asked, you believe that as of today, mar-a-lago is worth $1.5 billion and trump said, between $1 billion and 1.5 billion, so we are waiting to see if is prompting him to go on what the judge has describeded a speech or essay, but we know that this is a sensitive subject for him and he has taken issue with the appraisal, and we are waiting for more updates from the colleagues in the courtroom to see how this line of questioning goes. >> but let me ask a question, because one of the lines of questions here has been on the valuation of the trump tower apartment and how wildly of this square footage of that apartment was on the financial documents compared to what it was in real life. on the documents it is about 30,000 square feet, and in reality it is about 11,000, and so trump, himself, he said that he was not involved in the figures, but he is the one himself who told "forbes" which is why that is on the record, he told in his own words that it was about 33,000 square feet, and so higher than what was on the documents, and so, he is essentially trying to put it off to people who are preparing these documents, but trump is on the record telling "forbes" that the apartment was 33,000 square feet when clearly it is not that high. >> and what he knew and what he was involved in, and what he signed off on is getting to the core of what the judge wants to get to and the assistant attorney generals want to get to and how to get to the crux of it is how much the punishment should be for what the judge has decided is repeated and persistent fraud with regard to the financial net worth over the course of years. we have more coming from the inside of the coururtroom and wewe'll be rigight back afafter all right. welcome back, everyone. we are watching and getting more updates from inside of the courtroom and also trying to analyze what is going on. donald trump is back on the stand and it seems that the donald trump's demeanor from what we are hearing from inside of the courtroom is not changing, but the judge's approach to the line and we are learning more from what we heard from kaitlan and paula from the courtroom, the nitty-gritty, and the value of the trump tower apartment, and mar-a-lago, and trump is saying in regard to the 2021 financial statements, and then i want to read this and your take on it. not only busy with the white house, and in my threshold was china, and russia, and keeping country safe, but he said that he was not involved in the 2021 financial statements, and i don't know. that is when it was in the trust, so i assume that alan weisselberg and jeff mcconly were dealing with don and eric, and that is who might have been involved. and that is what we heard from don jr. and eric. >> that would be going poorly in front of a real jury, but trump is oscillating back and forth to i don't know, and other people were handling it. and it was in the trump. but like kaitlan said, in mar-a-lago, and getting into the detail that these numbers were correct, and this is overinflated, and those two lines of defense are difficult to reconcile. so at the end of this, when the judge issues the ruling weeks ago, i found them inconsistent and incompatible, and i find against him. >> if you can bear with me, i will read a section of this that had to do with the valuation of the apartment and it was at issue, 11,000, and then at some point, it was 30,000 feet, and so up is porting the data from the 2017 financial statement shows that the val wrags dropped from 300 million in 2016 to 116 million in 2017 around the time that "forbes" outed everything for the fact that it was not 30,000 square feet to 11,000 square feet, and under direct questioning, trump was asked by the assistant general attorney, this valuation came at your direction, and trump responds, probably, because i said it is too high, and trump says, i thought that it was too high, but i am seeing things that are sold otherwise, and did not see it broken down, but the difference could be explained by roof access, and then it is not too far off. what about that he says that probably. probably, i thought that it was too high. in other words, he was involved in the change in valuation once >> exactly. you can't say i just relied on the experts, i had no idea what was happening, and on the other hand say, i thought it was too high. he's making an administration that he saw the numbers and he's justifying it. he's not saying it's not 30,000 square feet, he says, oh, yes, if you take into consideration the fact that you can go to the roof, then it counts, too. so he's really trying to be too cute by half, as they say, and admit certain things but not admit other things. >> jeremy, what do you hear in that as well, the quote, again, probably, i said i thought it was too high, i don't know what's too high anymore because i'm seeing things sold at numbers that are very high? what are you hearing? >> well, i hear that i think the court allowing donald trump to share what he wants to share and that is a long game, and that is where justice is and wherever we may fall, but allowing him to make his statements. unfortunately for him, meaning donald trump, he's been kind of inconsistent. he's admitting little things, acknowledging some things, and at the same time he's playing coy or i didn't know. none of this seems to be helpful for donald trump. the more he says, the more combative he is, the more inconsistent he is, and some of it is inconsistent with his sons. you don't want to allow donald trump to use the witness stand as a soap box for something that's far beyond what the court needs to hear, but allowing him to continue to make these statements, if i'm the attorney general's office, let him do it. have at it, because it's not going to help him. this is just another way that there's inconsistencies that are going to impact his credibility and go to knowledge and intent. >> this is a concession by donald trump. its not necessarily game over but a concession. that was probably too high. in the real world of trials, cases are not won and lost, in contrast to the movies, with shocking, oh, my god, confessions on the stand. cases are built criminally or, in this case, civilly with small building block. what's going to happen is the ag's office is going to go through every word and highlight little concessions like that, probably too high, and this will be in their closing argument to the judge. it's not always as cinematic as we may be used to but this is the way real trials work. >> john avlon, you've been watching this play out from the outbursts in court to getting into the line of questioning and the inconsistencies donald trump is presenting from the stand. what do you see? >> i think the most important thing is getting to the fact pattern, getting to these questions about specifics. there's a natural tendency to get drawn into the bluster and the fight, but we get donald trump, we as a civil society, get donald trump under oath so rarely, that the real opportunity and obligation for the prosecution is to get direct answers on yes or no questions that show this sort of lifestyle of lying that donald trump has employed in public life and in business life, and apparently in private life. so that's the thing to listen for, what are the direct questions, what evidence do they actually get, and can they pry it out, or will there be an avalanche of fifth amendments going forward. that's, really, i think, the opportunity, not to get lost in all the theatrics. >> and, again, i'll just ask this head on, he may think what's going on inside this courtroom helps him politically, john, but is that definitionally true? >> no, it's not definitionally true. again, there's a fundamental divide between what might play well in a primary and what might play well in a general election. the reason this trial of all of them is getting under his skin, is it goes to the heart of his identity. he rose on a reputation for being a successful business executive, despite the fact that most new york banks wouldn't lend to him. this goes to the heart of what the prosecution is alleging is a pattern of fraud, it affects his businesses, his ego, self-image, and it might impact his reputation if it starts crumbling. it probably won't affect the republicans who will support him no matter what, but it begins to chip away fundamentally because he's being held accountable for perhaps the first time. >> if you're the assistant attorney general, how do you bring this home if you have one day and now you see the direction it's headed? how do you bring this home in front of the judge? >> i think you look at the elements of each of the things they're trying to prove and you ask him questions, direct questions about each of those items and just get his answer. try to keep it clean, try to keep it focused, and really just get what you need out of there. i would be looking at the record, i would also want to be able to try and -- don't forget part of this is the damages and how much money this is going to cost. so i would be trying to tease that out as well in detail about how much of this was he able to enrich himself unjustifiably. >> 15 seconds or less, has donald trump made his case better or worse over the last two hours? >> worse. i think my summary here, if i was the attorney general, he knew, he was in charge, he can't hide now. >> all right. everyone, thank you very much. obviously, donald trump is still on the stand. a lot more to cover. cnn's special live coverage continues right after this.

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