>> a strike inside gaza kills a hamas commander, but turn scores of civilians into collateral. that's tonight, on news night. ♪ ♪ ♪ and good evening, i am abby phillip in washington. tonight, a fight for the narrative, and to explain what these pictures really mean. you are looking here at a crater. this is the aftermath of what israel calls a wide scale attack. but it is also a gaza refugee camp, jabalya, where the idf claims a senior hamas commander was using civilians as shields. now, israel says that the strike erased the target from the battlefield. but as you can see there, it erased so much more. cameras captured the chaos in the month after the strike, the loud and frenzied race to pull people from that concrete. now, eyewitnesses told cnn that they saw children carrying wounded children from the rubble. cameras also filmed the eerie quiet. palestinian body bags lined up outside the building. today, we watched idf spokespeople come on to cnn several times to call the strike proportionate. they also cast doubt on the information coming out of gaza. and they give a blunt response to critics who say that israel is intentionally killing civilians. >> we were aiming for the tunnel complex where the hamas combatant commander was. we did not strike buildings. if we would try to strike buildings and cause civilian death, of course, the situation would be different. but we are not. >> but the content and the tone of that answer is very different from this one, also from the idf, just a few hours earlier. >> you know that there are a lot of refugees, a lot of innocent civilians -- man, women and children -- and a refugee camp as well, right? >> this is the tragedy of war, wolf. we, as you know, we have been -- four days -- >> that almost shrug of an answer raises some questions and, of course, some risks for the united states. questions such as, how long can the biden administration say the following with the full faith and confidence? >> we have been crystal clear that the right number of civilian casualties in this or any other conflict of zero. you don't want to see any innocent life lost. it is not a war aim of israel to cause civilian casualties. that does not mean that any civilian casualties can be excused or dismissed. but israel is not deliberately trying to kill civilians. they -- but it is not a war aim of israel to kill innocent civilians. >> there's not a single conversation we have not had with our israeli counterparts to better understand what they are doing to try to minimize civilian casualties. >> another question tonight, at what point does american deference to israel and its war actions send a message to the wider world? one that, potentially, indefinite civilian casualties are simply a part of war? and for some perspective on this, a notable moment today inside of a washington hearing room, just a couple of hours before we learned about that strike, rows and rows of protesters with bloody hands behind the secretary of state as he testified in defense of how israel is fighting this war. it is a snapshot of the on these that is growing in some parts of the country, with the human toll that this conflict has already taken, with no end in sight. in just moments, republican senator lindsey graham will join me. but first, i want to turn to palestinian american historic, ian rashid khalidi, the edward said, at columbia university. professor rashid khalidi, thank you for joining us. he's also the author, by the way, of the hundred years war on palestine. professor, the strike has raised a lot of questions, a of course, about israel's conduct in the war. i want to get to those in the moment. but tell us why they would be so many people in this largest fiji camp. 116,000 people is our understanding, in the northern part of gaza, even though, as the israeli say they have been asked to move further south. why is that the case? >> i can only speak to what i know about, which is the family that we have there who actually moved from gaza city, from the -- neighborhood to the southern part of gaza, and then moved back, because they were being bombarded in the south, and there was no shelter and no food. so, many people had left. but many others have been afraid to leave. and they know perfectly well that they are now safer in the south than they are in the north. there is nowhere to run to. there is nowhere to hide. >> israel says that hamas uses refugees as human shields, and they say that their warnings to move south, plus their claim that there was a target here that they killed, a senior level hamas official that they killed justifies this attack. but i wonder, do you -- that how mahsa bear some responsibility, if in fact they are sheltering their leaders in a refugee camp, where there are so many innocent? innocence? >> one of the things that has to be said is that there is not very much space in gaza. and if you are aiming, as hamas is, to resist an occupation that is gone for 56 years, and a dispossession that has gone on for 75, you are going to be tunneling underneath the hole of the gaza strip. minor standings that the gaza strip is honeycombed with tunnels, most of which are far, far deeper than wherever this horrible bomb landed. i think that is not really the issue. there is no place to hide in gaza. that's the whole point. there are 2.3 million people in this tiny area the size of oakland. and hamas is underneath them, perhaps, in many, many places. the point is, israel is using weapons with a killer radius, in the case of a 2000 pound bomb, which is so enormous that, even if they are targeting a tunnel or a hamas leader or a building in which the hamas official is located, they are killing scores and scores of people every time that they do that. and i think that is why you are having these horrendous casualty tolls. the kinds of weapons used, the american artillery, and often the american ordinances being used, inevitably and unnecessarily, kills huge numbers of people, even if somewhere in the vicinity there is a target that the israelis claim is a legitimate one. i think that is the point. you saw the devastation. >> yeah. >> if they killed one hamas leader in order to destroy that entire neighborhood, i think we have to ask about a question of proportionality. >> yeah, and i think that is very much the question that is being asked in a lot of quarters. professor rashid khalidi, thank you very much for joining us. we appreciate it. >> thanks for having me. >> and joining me now is south carolina republican senator lindsey graham. senator graham, thank you very much for joining us in studio today. first of all, on this idf strike that unfolded today at the gaza refugee camp, these raley say that it killed a top hamas general. have you received any intelligence briefings to suggest that that actually was the case? that they were able to take out that general? >> no, i haven't. the loss of life is tragic. a lot of innocent palestinians are being killed. and the main reason is that hamas uses their own people as human shields. so, if you are israel, you are in a dilemma here. because, to go after their leaders, you are probably going to have to hurt some innocent people. but that's the nature of this war, i am afraid. >> i think, though, that is obviously the big dilemma that israel faces -- >> it is. >> the whole world is really grappling with it. what i want to understand though, is, if this were the united states of america, and there was a target that was in a densely populated civilian area, with the united states have taken a strike like that against a refugee camp? >> i think a better analogy is what would the united states do to knock japan out of the war. you've got to understand, this is not normal stuff. how moss wants to kill all the. -- they're trying to destroy the palestinian people. so when we were attacked by japan, we declared war on germany. how -- we dropped a bomb on several cities in japan, breaking the will of the japanese people. if you had asked the average american, it's a proportional response after pearl harbor, they would say the do you see why a lot of people, would say we have other options here? this is not a time where only weapons are dropping nuclear bombs, there is position weaponry, there is intelligence. we have so much more information, what i'm wondering is, in 2023, when militaries advanced as israel's, and as the united states, have choices? is it acceptable to drop bombs on a densely populated civilian area where there are refugees, where people are living in their children? >> in 2023, who would imagine that someone would survive the holocaust in world war ii would be killed by islamic terrorist in israel, and later in life. in 2023, can anybody imagine a group of people come into israel and slaughter families? children in front of the parents? burn babies alive? can you imagine that? i can imagine that. i imagine the destruction of hamas is a nonnegotiable, i hate the loss of innocent lives. the day after hamas is destroyed, i hope we have a better life for the palestinian people, i'm not blaming israel. i'm blaming hamas, i'm not blaming israel at all. i know they are trying to limit civilian casualties. >> is there a threshold for you, and there should be one for the united states government in which u.s. would say let's hold off for a second in terms of civilian casualties? is there a point in which they would start to question? >> somebody asked us after world war ii, is there limit what will you do to make sure japan and germany don't conquer the world? is there any -- that people should do to the people who are trying to slaughter the? know there is no limit? let's try to limit civilian casualties the best we can let's put humanitarian aid, that protect innocent i'm all for that this idea that israel has to apologize for attacking hamas who is embedded with their own population. these stop. the goal is to destroy hamas, hamas is creating these casualties not israel. >> i don't think anyone is, some people may be asked rail to apologize. that's not what i'm asking about, the question here is about how how they carry out the war but you mentioned, in the israelis have described this way. they want to eradicate hamas, most people agree that that is a reasonable goal. however, how long do you think that will take? how long? me >> i think we ought to be focusing the day after hamas is destroyed, as well as destroying them. >> do you think that is on the table, the israelis are thinking about what happened after hamas? >> i'm gonna have different or with the saudis tomorrow night. this occupation, like gaza by israel will not be long-lasting. israel is not gonna go and occupy gaza. that's a losing proposition. they're gonna go in a dismantle hamas. and when they have a cheese lackell, the world needs to come up with a plan for closet in the west bank to give palestinians something to live for. >> how do you know when hamas is dismantled? when >> the israelis tell me it is. because they live next door. i would never asked the israelis to risk another hamas from hamas. i would never asked israeli people to shorten this operation, till they believe they are safe. once they believe hamas is destroyed and we need to work with the people in the region to give the palestinians a better life. i'm not blaming every palestinian for what happened, every palestinian is not a terrorist. there are palestinian children, it does break my heart. i would like to have a future for the palestinian people more future than they have today. e palestinians and israel. the >> palestinians as a people are not responsible for hamas, but they are dying. they by the thousands. the numbers arr 1000 at this point. this attack today raised it significantly. this is taking a real toll on a population that is almost half children. a lot of people are simply asking, should there be more time given for more humanitarian aid to come in, for more avenues of escape to be there for those innocence? >> let's move people to the south. >> but should israel pause to allow that to happen? all >> leave that up to israel. you have to remember who you are dealing with, hamas doesn't give a doubt about the palestinian people. can we agree that hamas is not trying to achieve a two state solution. they are trying to kill all the. they are trying to kill a islamic caliphate, they don't care about a better life for the pestilence. if we could all agree with that, let's eliminate them. let's try to find a way to do that, without hurting people who don't buy into it. >> doesn't it worry you at all, as the israelis have pointed out, how mass is hiding among civilians. in order to create a civilian costs tapestry. does it worry you at all these attacks actually play into that, first of all, and second of all, is potentially riling up the muslim world in a way that could create even more terrorist activity around the world? does that where you? >> what worries me the most is that we missed this. in that hamas was able to slaughter these people, and nobody picked up the intel. how could we have gotten it so wrong here in israel? but >> the moral authority that the united states, is it a risk that it could be lost in this war? >> all i'm saying, is israel needs to destroy hamas, we've gotta go in on the ground to do that. let's try to lessen the loss of innocent life. it's not negotiable, for the destruction of hamas. you can't do it from the air. you have to get on the ground, they are among the civilian population. i will say this, do what you need as long as you need to do it from an israeli point of view. find out what happens when hamas is destroyed. i would like to learn from the past mistakes, create a better life for the palestinians and try to get saudi arabia, and israel back together. you know i think this attack was created? to stop the reconciliation effort between saudi interest deal by a lot iran. the real culprit here is. iran >> senator graham, don't go anywhere we have a lot to talk to you about. coming up next, the newly elected speaker mike johnson, he's picking his first fight with senate republicans at the white house over in israel aid package. we will have m more on thahat ia momement. >> -- fast, as the new speaker picks his first fight with the white house and the senate by using war as a bargaining chip. the person who is to heartbeats away from the presidency is a man of mystery to most of the public and, frankly, to many of his own colleagues. but after weeks of infighting, republicans rushed mike johnson into the speakership in just a matter of hours. and he has done three on camera interview since getting the house gavel. one with the republican party mouthpiece, another with a conspiracy peddler at the center of the dominion lawsuit, and the third with donald trump's former press secretary. so, here's what we have learned about johnson since he became speaker. >> what does mike johnson think about any issue under the sun? i said, well, go pick up a bible off your shelf and read it. that's my worldview. on the marriage issue, no one has discussed that since i can remember. this has been settled -- there is no national consensus among the people of what to do with that issue on a federal level, for certain. he is not convicted. he is charged. >> he's charged. and so if we are going to expel people from congress because they're charged for a crime, or accused, that is a problem. the problem is the human heart. it's not guns. it's not the weapons. at the end of the day, we have to protect the right of the citizens to protect themselves. we have to base it upon the evidence. and the evidence is coming together. we will see where it leads. >> but perhaps the most notable revelation that we learned about johnson as speaker is that he wants to move a stand-alone aid package for israel without aid for ukraine. >> to put it succinctly, for our adversaries, beat a states or non states, this is all one fight. and we have to respond in a way that recognizes that. if we start to peel off pieces of this package, they will see that. they will understand that we are playing whack-a-mole. >> but johnson's plan is not as stand-alone as advertised. in order to pay for the israel aid, johnson actually wants to cut 14 billion dollars from the irs. fewer agents, he says. seems odd and, really, unrelated to link the irs to emergency aid for israel, unless you watch enough right-wing media, the irs is one of its favorite bogeyman. democrats, the, coldest disgraceful, a nonstarter, offensive, a poison pill, problematic, and ridiculous. but politics aside, here is the reality. the 14 billion dollars is part of an 80 billion dollar investment designed to ensure that the ultra wealthy and corporations don't skip out on paying their taxes. tax enforcement is actually a big revenue driver for the government. without raising taxes, according to the nonpartisan tax foundation. it's been popular with every president since ronald reagan. and according to the congressional budget office, which is also nonpartisan, investing in this enforcement at the 80 billion dollar level was estimated to actually raise 200 billion dollars in revenue over the next decade. so, if you have for those efforts, it's possible that this would end up actually costing the u.s. even more in lost revenue beyond the sticker price. now, according to the committee for responsible federal budget, also nonpartisan, the funding tax enforcement by 14 billion dollars to pay for new spending, the house will actually add more than 30 billion dollars to the debt. and back with me now is senator lindsey graham. senator graham, there is a new speaker of the house, mike johnson. >> yes. >> he is now saying he wants to pay for israel aid by slashing funding for the irs. senator schumer, your colleague, says that is not a serious proposal. senator mcconnell has also said that he does not think that that's a good idea. so, do you side with the top democrat in the senate? with the top republican in the house? >> i side with israel, and i want to give them as much money as they need, as quick as they need it. so, to the house, i understand we need to start paying for things around here. i get that. but this is truly an emergency. i don't think we have ever offset an emergency aid before we have a disaster, when it's a hurricane that hit south carolina we don't have the pay force because it's an emergency. when i don't want to happen is that the support for israel become part of some partisan, right? i think there is probably 400 votes in the house to support israel, and when you start putting things like pay for is on the table and you break that coalition apartment -- that's what i worry about. >> so you are saying speaker johnson is wrong? >> i'm not saying he's wrong. i'm saying, the reality is, that when it gets to the senate it's not going to go for the way it's constructed. we just don't have 60 votes for this. so, rather than focusing on having pay for is that republicans like, and democrats don't, why don't we agree with the idea that all of us need to support helping israel now? you can do whatever he wants to win the house. but when it comes to the senate, i promise you they are not 60 votes for this. >> you believe that ukraine aid and israel aid should remain together? >> personally, i do. >> and you think that ultimately will happen? >> i think it will in the senate. if putin gets away with invading ukraine, there goes taiwan. putin hosted hamas, i think, yesterday, in moscow. so, all this is really unconnected interconnected to me. >> why don't my colleagues understand that? >> well, listen. i've said -- i'm just telling you what i think. there are a lot of people that ukraine is not a good investment. i'm not one of them. there's a lot of people that believe that you can get let putin get away with invading ukraine. i'm just not one of them. philadelphia that want to vote on it separately. but i don't. let me tell you why. it's an america's national security interests to get this right. we need to secure our border. we need to help ukraine. we need to stay with our friends in israel and, we should all do it together. because if we don't get all three right, we are in trouble. if we don't secure our border, we are in trouble. if we let putin get away with invading ukraine, we are in trouble. and god knows, if we don't help israel, they are in trouble. >> all right. i want to turn now to politics. there is a presidential primary going on in your party. a new cnn poll shows nikki haley, someone you know very well, is in second place in south carolina, both of your home states. it's followed by ron desantis and then tim scott. to the candidates at the stage, who are not police pulling in the double digits, think about getting out of this race? >> the last person they need to get advice from his me. i ran for president. i don't think i ever got 1%. i got out because i ran out of money. i -- tim scott is one of the most intriguing, talented people in the republican party. now, why am i with trump? i like both nikki and tim. i believe if trump were president -- if he gets to be president, 2020, five this will and pretty quickly. whether you like trump or not, there was order in the world that's been lost. trump recently said that he thought hezbollah was smart. should someone who said that the president? >> i'll tell you what, if you are president of the united states if he was president as it it hamas wooden of attacks. nobody is afraid of biden, a lot of people are afraid of trump. >> senator graham, do you think nikki haley ultimately is the best alternative to trump? i >> think she's incredibly talented, she would be a good president. trump's gonna win the primary, in south carolina and other places. because most republicans believe he was a good president. he was a strong leader on national security, most republicans want him back in the white house. one other point here, as you just mentioned earlier. hamas is trying to stop normalization deal between saudi arabia and israel. that is being brokered by the biden administration, they are doing this because the biden is moving forward, with expansion of the abraham accords. i >> have nothing but prayed for the biden administration. >> how would trumpet acted differently? >> i think the abraham accords became the arabs believed he would stand up to run. the only reason the arab nations followed his lead to normalize with israel it was because they felt he was gonna stand up to the condom enemy. >> but i what i'm asking is, do you think that trump would have pursued a different policy toward normalization between saudi arabia? >> i think this is a natural extension. i want to compliment the biden administration for building on what trump did. i'm trying to work with the biden administration to get an agreement between saudi in israel,, that would make the world more stable. iran's biggest nightmare is that the arab world, joined with the israelis move towards the light against the darkness. i want to help tony. i want to help president biden in this endeavor. this is the right policy. >> senator lindsey graham good to have you here, thanks for joining us. >> up next, an ominous warning from the fbi director. >> the ongoing war in the middle east have reddest the threat against americans in the united states to a whole another level. >> those coming as a rest over the antisemitic threats at cornell university. geraldo rivera joins me next to discuss. c'mon, we're right there. c'mon baby. it's the only we need. go, go, go, go! ah! touchdown baby! -touchdown! are your neighbors watching the same game? yeah, my 5g home internet delays the game a bit. but you get used to it. try these. they're noise cancelling earmuffs. i stole them from an airport. it's always something with you, man. great! solid! -greek salad? exactly! don't delay the game with verizon or t-mobile 5g home internet. catch it on the xfinity 10g network. it happened there and it can happen here. today a sobering warning brought the fbi director about hostile, and hamas and smiled tear. >> we assess that the actions of hamas and its allies or serve as inspiration, some's we haven't seen since i.s.i.s. lost its -- several years ago. >> now listening to the fbi director, it's suggest that hamas hopes to copy that i.s.i.s. model you can see it on social media after october 7th, the propaganda videos called from gopros, worn by terrorist. snuff film shot on iphones that glorified savage murder. the potential downstream consequences of all of this, are big and lethal. i.s.i.s. directed or spawned hundreds of attacks, since 2014. this new threat, is uniquely tailored to target one group in particular,. >> the jewish community, is targeted by teared us really across the spectrum. homegrown violent extremists, foreign organizations, domestic violence extremists. and in fact, our statistics would indicate that for a group that represents only about 2.4% of the american public, they count for something like 60% of all religious hate crimes. >> for more i want to bring in journalist and fox news host geraldo rivera. thank you for being here as always. just as we are coming on the air, the u.s. attorney general announced that a student at cornell university, a 21-year-old. he is a junior at the college. he has been arrested for making those threats against jewish students on campus. these were vile and violent threats. blatantly antisemitic. what is going on in this country, that a college junior at an elite school like cornell, could re-responsible for something like that? >> mostly at this point it has been angry rhetoric, ugly words have a way of translating into violence eventually. you have these really ugly, vile things being shouted one side against the other. at some of the most elite schools in the country. it's really unnerving. particularly, like millions of other american parents tonight. our kids are filing catalog applications. this is the season for that. we have a high school senior. we want her to go to the best school she can get into. we care about the quality of education, the reputation of the school. the location. we never thought that we would have to worry about our daughter being jewish. and now with this guy, and other things that are being said on the streets of campuses threw out the country. the most elite colleges in the country. you start to worry. this thing in cornell, where this kid was putting out threats. slit throats, stab and shoot and. throw off cliffs. we have friends who have kids in cornell jewish kids in cornell. >> they were locked down, it was so terrifying. >> i think that i worry that that you go from verbal, as this rhetoric. >> it's incredibly disturbing, and what we're seeing all over the country. you mentioned the rhetoric here, look people feel really strongly about this issue. the conflict between the israelis and the palestinians have been going on for 75 years. we are also seeing some examples here, some rhetoric. this is from congresswoman cori bush. she called israel's actions in a tweet, an ethnic cleansing campaign. >> she is not alone in that many on the left, are calling it that. accusing israel of genocide. >> do you think that kind of rhetoric, is justified in this kind of environment? >> first of all, we have to acknowledge that what happened on the 7th of october was, something no hyperbole can possibly match. babies and pregnant women, and belize cut open. people killed in front of their children. their hands amputated. before they were murdered. the horrible crimes committed. then you have this attack on the july, refugee camp on the other side. you're seeing babies taken out of the rubble. you >> see how palestinian in and julie alike, there's plenty of reasons for provocation. war is this is really horrible what's happening. israel has every right to avenge what happened, and bring the perpetrators to justice, and free these hostages. the palestinians are trying in their own way to live when they have hamas a terrorist group. that perpetrated this crime and they made it as horrible as they possibly could. specifically to come, to provoke israel into responding. then they hide behind their civilians. the words are horrible. the actions are even worse. to become hate crimes and violence. this kid, patrick dye, who is he speaking with on this chat line this is a bright kid by all accounts. he had bitcoin companies crypto and virtual reality. all the rest of it this is a kid who look like he was living the american dream. he turns into this monster at least in terms of what he is saying what if someone hears this. and then axon it because this certainly have been, and there will be even greater provocations going forward. president biden has to step into this right now. he is the calm the american people down yes you have the right of free. speech and to protest and demonstrate. you don't have a right to do is tell someone you are going to slit their throats. shoot them write them. or throw them off a cliff. i think that i'm pleased on the action of the fbi in albany, in catching this kid. i want to know who he was talking to where any of them are spending the night. and nip this in the bud because it's spread every. every major college in the country is witnessing these protests. we should say that this suspect was arrested. is accused in has not been convicted of these allegations. we'll see where that all goes. thank you for your insights all that thank you. >> coming up next, a claim from house republicans that they say points to wrongdoing by joe biden. now undercut by new evidence, we've got the fact-check next. plus a new study into what led to the extinction of dinosaurs. it turns out, it may have been dust. >> in tonight's fact check, republican house oversight committee chairman james comer called into question a 2018 personal check to joe biden from his brother, james. he took issue with the words loan repayment written on the check, and repeatedly saying in interviews that he didn't believe that joe biden had actually made a loan to his brother. cnn's daniel dale is here with us now to walk us through what exactly we are talking about here. daniel, what do you know? >> i can tell, you abby, that the available evidence suggest this was indeed a personal loan from brother to brother, just as james biden's lore and house democrats have said. we do not have comprehensive evidence absolutely proving it was a lone. with the partial evidence we have is firmly on the democrat side. so, let me explain. congressman comer released an image of one check -- a 200,000 check from james biden in march 2018 and noted that -- got 200 k from health care company he did business with. so, comer said he did not believe this jack with extra loan repayment even though it said loan repayment on the front. what mr. comer did not release, though, abby, it's an additional james biden bank record that undercuts his case. that additional record, which cnn which provided by from a source -- shows that less than two months prior to writing, that 200 k check to his brother, james biden received the exact same amount -- to hundred k -- via a wire transfer. and here is the key thing. other records that cnn obtained from a source strongly suggest that the wire transfer was from joe biden. if people go to cnn.com they can find my article explaining how the evidence connects joe biden to that account. regardless here, the main point is this. democrats have significant corroboration for their assertions that it was a lone. and one more point, abby, i think is hugely important here. joe biden was neither government nor a political candidate at the time this happened in 2018. today, republicans have not provided a shred of evidence that joe biden did anything in office to benefit his brother in his brother's dealings with his health care company. and that might well be because joe biden was not even in office at all at this time. >> that seems to be a pretty salient point when it comes to the issue of corruption. >> it certainly is. there is no proof provided here that joe biden did anything wrong. >> we will keep asking, and we will keep waiting for the evidence that they say is there. but so far, we have not seen it yet. daniel dale, thank you, as always. up next, a new study gives the world an answer to a 65 million year old question about the fate of dinosaurs. that is next. >> it's been more than 60 million years since the dinosaurs ruled the earth, and after a city sized asteroid wiped out three quarters of all living species on our planet. but how exactly this doomed the dinosaurs remained unclear for a long time. now, scientists previously thought this was due to the soot but he's from wildfires, dragging triggering a global winter. but there is a new study out that suggests that the fine dust from the pulverized asteroid may have played a bigger role than previously known. blocking out the sunlight, and shutting down life for nearly two years. that caused a massive collapse in the food chain, ultimately leading to a mass extinction, and the end of the dinosaur age. joining me now to discuss this is astrophysicist hakeem alusheiei. hakeem, you are here to solve a mystery for me and other people. this is a paper published in the journal geoscience. it seeks to answer this question, why did we not know this before? do you think it's plausible, personally? >> it's possible, because it's based on real data. so, the actual material, it's crazy. but in 66 million years old, but we can still go and gather, and see what is in there. so, they actually found this fine dust. and that was the experimental his. but then, on the computational side, they had to actually create these models that show not only how the dust interacts with some light -- does it absorb? it doesn't reflect it? but also, how does the dust interact with the atmosphere. and what they found is that this particular type of material could stay airborne for 15 years. >> wow. and producing a, basically, chain reaction -- >> yes. >> killing off plant life first? >> yes. >> and that's what would've caused the dinosaurs to basically go extinct? >> right, so, when you shut down photosynthesis -- plants are not able to make their food. so, the plant eaters have no source of food to eat. so, now, what does that mean? that means that everything that eats plants is going to die, and everything that ethers animals is going to die. so, what really determine who is going to live and who is not going to leave when this event occurred with how much you needed to eat. so, for example, why did the dinosaurs die but the crocodile eons crocodilians were -- those big dinosaur is needed a lot of food. a crocodile today, because they are cold blooded, they don't need as much energy. so, if they once a year, they can survive. so the small things survived. the cold blooded, small things survive. but if you were big and warm blooded, once the food web shut down, you had very -- your days were numbered. >> so, the science but aligned behind this relies on a computer model that simulated what the atmosphere would have been like at that time. is there anything we can take away from that, as we try to project forward? we are talking a lot about climate change, and how our activity as humans is affecting our atmosphere. what can we take away? >> one thing to know is that our atmosphere is really, really thin layer. even in the lifetimes of modern humans, we have had three big atmospheric emergencies. we have had acid rain, we had the hole in the ozone layer, and now we have global climate change, the warming of the global climate. and so, this is the first time it has happened. that event did it. so, outer space can do it through impacts. geology can do it through volcanoes. and life also does it. so, what does this mean? what we have done so far is we just lived our lives and then we go, whoops, look what we did. let's find out a way to solve it, right? we could be a bit more mindful, and also recognize that this type of particular particulate matter does have the effect of -- it's another thing to watch out for. >> and it was a catastrophic event but a single event that had such an incredible impact on this planet. so, interesting hakeem oluseyi.. thank you u so much fofor joinig us.. >> t thank you f for having g m.

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