retail banking in california by j.d. power. >> announcer: this is cnn breaking news. good morning, i'm john berman with kate bolduan and sara sidner. the major breaking news this morning, a courtroom campaign and a corporation come together in dramatic fashion. donald trump is about to leave trump tower in manhattan to be present for opening statements in a civil trial that could cost him control of much of his business empire. now, as you are watching everything unfold this morning, remember, in a sense this is a campaign event. trump is choosing to be here. he did not have to attend this trial, but he is and he is publicizing it. we will explain why. and the first major ruling we expect in just a few minutes is whether cameras will be allowed in court. >> this case centers on fraud, accusations of fraud, staggering fraud is how the attorney general of new york has put it, in a civil lawsuit brought by the new york ag. $250 million lawsuit against donald trump, his eldest sons, their companies and other trump organization executives. in the lawsuit the attorney general accuses trump of falsely inflating his wealth by as much as $3.6 billion. she says that he engaged in decades-long fraud, essentially to pump up the value of his businesses to get better interest rates and secure better loans. inflating values when it suited him and also deflating values when it helped him as well. >> the judge, by the way, has already ruled trump and his adult sons committed fraud, now it's about damages the trumps may be forced to pay. trump's future as a businessman, his real net worth and his real money is on the line. trump says he is, quote, going to court this morning to quite for his name and reputation, but will he take the stand? he is on the witness list, as well as three of his children. his former fixer there, michael cohen, his former cfo, allen weisselberg and former accountant. there is intense scrutiny in manhattan right now. we begin with cnn's brynn gingras who is outside the courthouse in downtown new york city. brynn, what are you hearing this morning before the case gets going? >> reporter: listen, guys, there is immense security here, immense press presence. you can't see what's to my left but what is to my left is a podium for new york attorney general letitia james. we are expecting her to make some comments before she heads into the courtroom which is going to be an interesting face-off when trump does arrive and as you just said sit in the courtroom for the opening statements for the civil trial as well. remember she is the one who brought this case against trump, his organization, his adult sons, asking for $250 million and other penalties for falsifying business records allegedly for many of his fortune, his mass fortune, his business empire. it's going to be an interesting trial because he is also on her list of witnesses. he's on the defense side as well, but it's possible, and we are told he's eager to testify in his own defense, although we don't expect that to happen today. what's also going to be noteworthy today is the fact that he's going to be in front of this judge. now, remember, this judge made a huge ruling last week in deciding that he and his sons and trump org are liable for fraud in inflating some of those assets and striking some serious penalties like stripping their business certificates as well as saying that they are going to basically pave the road for the fact that they are going to owe the state of new york money. so trump said he wants to be here, he wants to fight for his name and reputation and he's going to see that judge face-to-face, and that is key because, remember, this is a bench trial. that judge is going to call the balls and strikes, he is going to decide the penalties, he is going to say how much money will be owed. it is not a jury trial so there is a lot to look out for in these opening statements. again, we are waiting for letitia james to come here to make some comments and also waiting for trump to arrive as well. >> brynn gingras in lower manhattan. great to have you there. please let us know when and if you see any movements down there. in the meantime, we have our eyes on trump tower in midtown manhattan, about fifth avenue. donald trump will leave there shortly. he got there last night after a campaign event in iowa and as i mentioned before, one way to look at what we're about to see is as a continuation of that campaign event. cnn's kristen holmes outside trump tower. kristen, explain to us this choice because, again, trump does not have to go this morning. he has chosen to. why? >> reporter: that's right, john. i've talked to a number of his allies and advisers who say that trump has become increasingly agitate bd this particular trial, particularly the valuation of his properties made by the judge who talk about how trump has sold himself as a successful and rich businessman. it's not just his business, it's also his brand and it's not just his social brand, it is his political brand. running in 2016 a big part of his argument to voters is i am successful. look at all of my riches. i can make you rich. i can do all the things for you that i've done for myself. obviously if he has been inflating that, that is going to conflict directly with the message that he has been sending about the kind of president he would be in the middle of a campaign again for president in 2024. you talk about this being a campaign event, it really is. just moments ago right before we started speaking they blasted out an email attacking letitia james just like they would a political opponent. we know that they are weaponizing these trials, saying that these are because he is running for office, that these are democrats, that this is election interference and it's going to be no different with this. i am told that he wanted to have a show of force by showing up today, obviously as he continued to say he is not expected to testify today, but we are told that he has indicated to lawyers he would like to testify. now, whether or not he will be called, whether or not his lawyers would even allow him to do that, that remains to be seen. he often says that he would like to testify but then ends up not doing so. one post on truth social i want to show you because this is part of this fixation here. he talks at the top here about i'm going to court tomorrow to fight for my name and reputation, but then he goes on to say he, being the judge, values mar-a-lago in palm beach, his home $18 million. this particular valuation has driven trump crazy according to many people who have talked to him in recent weeks. he continues to say it's not true, that it's worth more money. again, it goes to not just this idea of his business, but his brand as a person and as it relates to him running in 2024. >> kristen holmes, thank you so much. she is where we will likely see donald trump first today, he will be leaving trump tower and heading to lower manhattan. trump being back in manhattan and headed to court brings with it a whole host of security challenges. shimon prokupecz is tracking that outside the court building in lower manhattan. you were down there six months ago when trump made a similar trip, if you will, to be arrested after his first criminal indictment. what are you seeing there today? >> reporter: right. and at that time this was a much more secure area, there was a lot more security, remember, it was really his first criminal court appearance and he was just -- it was just a block or so away from here, two blocks or so down this way is where he made that appearance where he went to the district attorney's office to surrender. this is now at 60 center street, this is the civil court, the civil supreme court, and viewers looking at this courthouse may find it familiar because it's very famous. many movies, "law and order" something that has been shot here. what won't happen is that there trump will not be taking the 32 steps up into the courthouse. what we believe is going to happen is he's going to be entering here on the side on pearl street. there is an entrance here, there's secret service agents and nypd officers all up and down this street because that is the street we believe he's going to go in. there's a side door there. when you look around, kate, you can see this is the area where a lot of the anti-trump protesters have gathered. we are not seeing a lot of trump supporters out here. we're mostly seeing just a few, there aren't many, anti-trump supporters. and then when you look this way you can see more security all along here with nypd and of course all of these barriers that are set up all across this courthouse and this street. they've blocked most of the street off to pedestrians, people can't really walk up and down the street. they are still allowing some traffic. but certainly we expect that to change as we get closer to the 10:00 hour when we expect the former president to arrive. >> shimon prokupecz, down in lower manhattan, keep an eye out there for us. >> with us is jessica roth former federal prosecutor from the southern district of new york and elie honig former assistant district attorney also for the southern district of attorney, he also happens to be cnn's legal affairs analyst, also with us legal affairs consultant paula reid. trump does not have to be in the courtroom this morning but legally speaking why would his team want him there or not? >> so a couple reasons that you would want a party present. first of all, you may want to ask questions of your client as a lawyer, as testimony is given, as the judge asks questions, oftentimes you need to lean over and go, is that true? what should we say in response? the other thing is you want your client there generally as a lawyer as a show of respect for the proceedings, as a show of respect for the trier of fact, for the judge. there is not going to be a jury in this case but ordinarily you would want the jury or judge to see the person there to say they care and are invested in this. there will be political calculations but those the strategic reasons you would want your client to be present. >> he's had opportunities to show up in the past to show that respect for the process, if you will. did he not show up to the civil trial that was, again, the civil lawsuit having to do with e. jean carroll. he did not also show up when allen weisselberg was facing his trial over fraud. >> yeah. >> what is different than here? >> that's a great question. first of all, important that people understand. this is a civil case. you do have the option as a defendant in a civil case to show up or not show up. when his criminal cases get tried, separate cases, he will not have that option. he has to physically be in those courtrooms. as for here what's different as between the e. jean carroll and this one, that has to be a political consideration because the legal considerations are really the same. we will see how long he lasts. that's a long day in court, it can get draining and this is going to be several weeks of trial. it may be that he's there as some show appearance, be there for a day or two or part of the day, but we'll see. >> jessica, this case isn't if donald trump and his sons committed fraud, the judge has already very pointedly said that. so what is at stake here? is it about damages that he may owe? >> in large part, yes, it is about damages, what are going to be the penalties that the judge will impose for the persistent fraud that he has already founded. the attorney general has asked for $250 million in dis kurjment of profits that trump and related entities and children gained as a result of their fraudulent behavior. first and foremost will be the amount of penalties, monetary penalties but there are other penalties that the attorney general has sought including barring trump and his sons from holding certain offices, corporate offices in the future in new york state as well as the mechanics of what's going to happen if the businesses are dissolved as the judge has already ordered what does that mean? will there be a receiver appointed to unwind them, can they be the beneficial owners? there are a lot of specifics to address which may be the reason why trump wants to be present. this could be a fast-moving proceeding this morning and being able to consult with his attorneys in realtime may be helpful. >> donald trump could lose control over a big part of his business enterprise. in fact, the status quo as things stand right now he has sort of lost control depending on what the judge does over the next few days or few months, correct? >> that's absolutely right. the judge has made a determination on liability and he's also said that he intends to essentially revoke the business certificate for these business entities. the questions that remain include which business entities, there's so many under the trump organization umbrella and what will that mean? will the properties have to be sold? will trump tower have to be sold or can someone else essentially a receiver unwind it or hold on to it for them. there's significant practical consequences still to be worked out. >> can you also put in context the fact that letitia james the attorney general of new york is seeking $250 million here, just the scope of what he has been accused of in terms of the scope of inflating his wealth. the scope of the fraud that is accused. >> that's exactly what makes this very different from the other civil cases we've seen is the scope. the allegation here covers more than a decade worth of conduct and when we talk about in this complaint, in this ruling, the level of inflation, the judge actually says, look, people can differ in how they value a building, there is an element of subjectivity to that. people can differ by 10%, 20%, but here donald trump at certain instances inflated the value by 20 or 25 times the example. the example that jumps out to me is mar-a-lago. assessed by the palm beach county board of assessors at roughly $20 million with a little bit of a range. donald trump claimed in his paperwork it was worth about $500 million. 25 times greater. that's why the judge in his ruling last week said i find this -- even before we get to the trial -- i find that on this one count there is fraud. this is a real existential threat to his business. >> i need to ask you about what the critics are saying when they look at this case. who was hurt? you will hear people saying who got hurt in this case? because it wasn't the insurers, although that's what letitia james says. they are not plaintiffs in this case. it is brought by the state of new york. so how does this play out if there aren't other people in this case who get the money? >> so that's a really important question. to watch here, donald trump has said not only did no one lose money, the banks didn't lose money, they made money because i repaid these loans with interest. letitia james response starts out with fraud is fraud, massive fraud is massive fraud. you got way more money than you were entitled to at way better interest rates. for the one count that was already decided against donald trump, the plaintiffs, the ag, does not have to show a loss, but for the other counts they may have to show that and that could be a contested issue at trial. >> live pictures right now, aerial shots from outside trump tower, there appears some movement there. donald trump very soon could get into maybe that vehicle. >> looks like one of his attorneys right there. >> he will be headed down to lower manhattan to the civil trial which he is choosing to be at. this is a civil trial not a criminal trial. this could cost him money and could cost him control of much of his business legal empire. i want to bring in paula reid who has been watching all of this unfold as well. paula, what's the view from inside the trump legal world on all of this? i do have to say the judge's sm ri judgment on this declare that fraud was committed ten days ago, it seemed to catch the world by surprise. to what extent did it catch the trump legal team by surprise and how they adjusted? >> here is donald trump right here, paula, just to jump in really quick. we're seeing donald trump getting in -- leaving trump tower, getting into the suv. this is a lot of deja vu in what we saw six months ago in when he was doing this exact same thing heading down to lower manhattan to face his first indictment, now back in new york, in that suv, the motorcade will be leaving very shortly to make that similar trip down to lower manhattan to head into the new york county courthouse. paula, continue. >> reporter: kate, you make a great point. i mean, this looks familiar. this is a choice. most americans would not be paying a lot of attention to this phase of this case right now if the former president was not going to attend today. that big decision that john was just referencing, finding that the former president and his elder sons and their company had committed fraud by inflating the value of their assets, that was a shock because as part of that they effectively gave the former president the corporate death penalty. they are trying to dismantle his company. now, that will be appealed and that will take years, but among the cases most of the attention goes to the criminal probes and not the civil probes. so for the former president to once again get in a motorcade, once again head to court it's unclear how this is going to resonate with voters. there are certainly people in this country who believe the former president is a victim of a biased criminal justice system. they are the converted. they are with him. but there are also a lot of voters in this country that he needs to convert to win reelection and it's unclear how they're going to feel about seeing him in court for at least the fifth time this year. these images they are a reminder of the baggage and the chaos that surrounds the former president. it is certainly understandable why he might want to show up as a person, as a citizen, as a businessman. i mean, this cuts to the heart of his livelihood. his family's business. their identity. you can understand why from that perspective he may want to go and observe these proceed js, but as a candidate it's going to be really interesting to see how this resonates with voters because he did not have to show up and in showing up he is bringing the attention of the world media, this white hot spotlight on to this hearing. i don't know that many people will be interested in the real like nitty-gritty of the damages and the punitive phase of this, but, again, it reminds people just how much legal baggage he has. >> paula reid, thank you so much. again, we are watching the trump motorcade head to the courthouse where they will be in just a few minutes. there is a ton of security around that courthouse at this point in time. we are also expect to go hear from letitia james, the person who brought this case in the first place. she's asking for $250 million in damages, something that the judge will have to look at today, as well as donald trump and whether or not he's going to take the stand. his children, several of his children, are also potential witnesses as well as his cfo, his accountant and his so-called fixer, who we've heard a lot from, mr. cohen. so there are a lot of things at stake here as we watch this motorcade heading down down to the courthouse. >> we talk about the fact, elie, that donald trump could be a witness in this case and that does bear some explaining here because this is a civil case, he could be a witness for either side here. explain all that. >> in a criminal case the prosecutor cannot force the defendant, the person who has been charged to take the stand. that would violate that person's fifth amendment right. he may choose to take the stand but he cannot be forced. this is a civil case so the parties can force each other to take the stand and donald trump actually appears on his own witness list and on the attorney general's witness list. if and when it comes down to time for donald trump to testify if the attorney general tries to force him on the stand and his adult children who have been named in this case as well, donald trump will have two choices, one is to testify, and it's worth noting he already has given a deposition in this case, it's a videotaped deposition, we've seen excerpts, they went quite poorly for him i think to put it in short, or he could take the fifth. he does have the right to take the fifth amendment but if he does that because we are in new york in a civil case the judge, if there was a jury, there is not a jury, but the judge in this case can use that against him. the judge can draw what we call an adverse inference meaning donald trump says i'm not testifying, i take the fifth, the judge is entitled to say, well, i will assume the worst about what your testimony would have been. >> john miller is joining us as well, watching this wcbs chopper cam. once again, john, talk about i know you have nypd involved, you have secret service involved, you have traffic stopped one way, i think probably maybe still -- they might be heading on to the fdr now, but you have traffic continuing along the other side as life in manhattan must continue. talk about all the security, all the planning that has to go into this. >> well, this has become a bit of a well-worn path. they have had to bring him through new york on these cases a few times already, but what you're seeing is as the motorcade moves through the street, it has the police e escort, it has the secret service vehicles and while the route, as you point out, is not a frozen route as he would have received as president of the united states, and that's a motorcade that i used to actually be the leader of the team that put the new york part of that security together, what you do see is they were holding the intersections, they had motorcycle outriders to go ahead and stop traffic, they intend for him to arrive there no later than 9:45. so he is going to enter the secure area, which is a locked-down area between the place where he's going, the state supreme court at 60 center street, next door is the federal courthouse. so that side street is frozen, as are the streets behind it. so they've got a built in basically secure zone to bring him into, into that courtroom. now, the question for the nypd, the question for the secret service is right now they have him scheduled to show up at a hearing, which as elie pointed out he is not required to be at and to hear these allegations and arguments, but how long is he going to stay? is he going to be there all day through all the proceedings or is he going to make that appearance and at some point say, okay, i've heard enough and i've made my appearance? so they are in a very flexible mode in terms of when they have to move out of there and go back to trump tower, but so far the schedule has him staying overnight tonight and possibly returning to court tomorrow. so we're in a little bit of a float when it comes to what that schedule is going to be. as for demonstrators down there between the pro demonstrators and the anti-trump demonstrators, the numbers are very small. they've created pens that keep the groups separated but within earshot of where they want to call out to and that is where we are now on this move. >> thank you so much, john miller. i do have a question. if donald trump does not stay, and i'll -- what happens? because he's on the witness list, as are his children. so what happens if he decides not to stay? >> so if he is called as a witness, then he would have to appear and the request he is just how orderly will it be? will there be a break in the proceedings so he can come in an orderly way? i expect both sides would give a courtesy of a heads up of when he will be on their witness list. he doesn't have to be physically present just to wait for that magic moment but i imagine there would be notice to him so he would be prepared to be in the courtroom when and if either side wants to call him to the stand. i imagine he may want to be there for other witnesses testimony, too. i think that i could imagine him staying for some of the testimony of other witnesses as well. >> i also heard michael cohen being one of those people. he had said i think it was last night that he planned on being in the courtroom today, too. >> you're looking at live pictures of donald trump's motorcade moving southbound on the fdr without traffic, which never happens. what you're seeing right now is something that doesn't happen in real life, ever, which is moving quickly on the fdr. he's going to this courtroom. opening statements, he will be present for the opening statements, we believe, which begin very shortly. we are waiting to hear if the judge will allow cameras for the opening statements. normally they would not be allowed, this judge could decide to allow them. that could be a big deal. we will certainly hear whether we can soon. i want to talk about the fact this is a bench trial. this is significant. this judge made a major ruling himself last week in summary judgment, the whole trial will be just him. why? >> so both parties have actually agreed we're going to do this without a jury. we're going to let the judge rule from the bench, which is why we call it a bench trial. tactically why would you do that, especially if you are the defendant in a civil or criminal case? why would you agree to not have a jury? i can see a couple reasons. one is if you like the judge, all judges are supposed to be right down the middle but little secret sometimes there are judges that are seen as a little better for the prosecution, a little better for the defense, a little better for plaintiffs versus a civil defendant. that's reason number one. reason number two is sometimes if you think your case you're going to make is highly technical, is nuanced, is sort of procedural, that kind of argument may go better with a judge than with a jury of civilians. >> i want to jump in real quick. this is the new york attorney general letitia james who brought this civil lawsuit. let's listen. >> -- and the other defendants have committed persistent and repeated fraud. last week we proved that in our motion for summary judgment. today we will prove our other claims. my message is simple, no matter how powerful you are, no matter how much money you think you may have, no one is above the law, and it is my responsibility and my duty and my job to enforce it. the law is both powerful and fragile and today in court we will prove our case. i thank you all for being here and, again, justice will prevail. thank you. >> new york attorney general and she made no bones about it, no matter how powerful or no matter how much money you think you have, which i thought was interesting, no one is above the law. >> that's a good catch there. she said you think you have, which is part of this. >> that's right. it is a question over whether or not donald trump and his family inflated their worth, which the judge has decided they did. he has already done a summary judgment on this, saying they did. can you give us some sense of what it will look like in the courtroom when the testimony happens, and when the witnesses take the stand, and if donald trump takes the stand, what happens? >> so any testimony sort of proceeds in three parts, there is the direct examination where his own lawyers or whoever has put him on the stand gets to question him, then cross-examination, the other side gets to question him and then there's some sort of rebuttal. there's an interesting question here, who is going to try to put him on the stand? the ag's office they put their case on first, they are the plaintiffs, will they say we call to the stand donald trump or will they give that a pass and if they do give it a pass will donald trump's team say we call to the stand donald trump? there is a little strategic maneuvering happening here. this is an open public trial, open to the public, the doors are open, i'm sure the courtroom is more than overfilled. i think we should be able to see it on tv but it is an open public hearing. there will be direct examination, cross-examination and then redirect examination. it's worth noting judges sometimes say if you are a potential witness in this case i don't want you in the courtroom. let's say michael cohen hypothetically, i don't want you seeing donald trump's testimony because i don't want your tailoring your testimony around that, that's called a sequestration order. we may see something along those lines. >> the witnesses are under oath. they take an oath to tell the truth under penalty of perjury. that's part of the calculation for trump's lawyers choosing to put him on the stand. >> but let us talk also quickly as we just heard from the new york attorney general himself, this morning donald trump's team, donald trump's -- i'm going to see if it's a campaign thing, i believe it's a campaign thing -- they put out a statement just attacking and eviscerating -- trying to attack letitia james, literally was called meet letitia james. public statements that are made outside of the courtroom, he has similarly attacked the judge overseeing this case, calling it a sham, calling it -- him calling the judge unfair, unhinged and vicious. this is not a jury trial. this is a bench trial. the impact of that, jessica, what does the impact of these public statements have? >> it's still potentially injurious to the administration of justice. the judge could give him at a minimum a stern warning today and say stop doing this. so the question will be is that going to be something that the judge actually addresses at the start of the proceedings today? this has been a long, steady stream of these kinds of attacks on the judge personally, as well as on the attorney general, and i will be interested to see whether the attorney general's office raises this with the judge at the beginning of the proceedings, especially if mr. trump is in the room, and whether the judge decides to raise it on his own. >> all right. again, we have now seen them exit the fdr, they are getting ever so closer to the courtroom. donald trump arriving here for opening statements in this civil case. we just heard from the attorney general moments ago. we will see if he takes the chance to speak before going in. i don't think we necessarily anticipate that, but you never know. in the meantime, i want to bring dana bash into this conversation. dana, we've been noting all morning long, yes, this is a legal proceeding but in many respects this is a campaign event because donald trump is choosing to be there. he's coming from iowa. he was in iowa yesterday, spent last night in new york, going to this campaign event today, in a way it proves the point he's been trying to make is there's no daylight. the sun can't shine through almost on any of the other candidates, republican candidates, no matter how hard they try. >> and there is no opportunity for a spectacle that he will give up. in general but particularly at this case when this kind of moment is a central part of his campaign for reelection, for election again, i should say, and a central part of his campaign to galvanize republican voters which according to every poll national and more importantly state poll, is working. his numbers have continued to go up with every indictment that he has faced. that's on the criminal charges. this as you've been noting all morning is a civil trial. but i want to go back to what kate was talking about with this trump campaign statement, very lengthy statement, attacking letitia james because it plays into the notion of him as a martyr and him going after what he perceives as his political enemies. jessica was right, of course, that this is going to be a question legally in the courtroom about his -- his behavior, both against letitia james and against the judge, but if you just look at it from the point of view of his political campaign, he makes point after point using quote after quote of letitia james as a candidate for office herself. remember she was elected as attorney general. she is a proud democrat. and so he is trying to turn that very much into the notion of witch-hunt. it is different from, let's say, a jack smith on the federal level who is apolitical and nominated because of that or appointed because of that. this is a very different kind of thing and he clearly feels that it is much easier to make the political argument that this is just democrats coming after him in a way because -- because they can. >> one of the arguments that's being made, dana, and i'm curious what you think and what you have heard from the public, voters, et cetera, is that this is political for the simple fact that -- >> donald trump is now leaving the motorcade and he's going to be headed in. it looks like this is as close as cameras are getting right now but donald trump is now heading into that courthouse. >> we know that there are cameras there, he is on the other side. so we don't know if he will come through and try to talk to the cameras first or go into the courtroom immediately. we will see there. you can see inside of the courthouse there as they wait for donald trump and his entourage to come through. and, again, we are expecting to have a judgment -- or a decision by the judge as to whether or not cameras will actually be allowed in the court. highly unusual. hasn't happened yet, but the journal has been asked and there is a question as to whether or not he would allow cameras just for the opening statements. if that happens we will bring those to you as soon as they happen and we will give you the decision as soon as that decision becomes clear. there is a big case that still has to go forward here. dana, the argument that donald trump has been making is it's political for the simple fact that he has been touting his business acumen for decades and these business records have been around for a very long time, as well as questions around his wealth. is this an argument that is working with those who are looking at potentially putting trump back in office? >> politically, sure, absolutely. i mean, let's be clear, pretty much any argument that he makes that portrays himself as a victim of, you know, pick your word that he uses, witch-hunt, weaponization, whatever it is, it works politically. it's also a question about whether or not that argument is going to have any sway with the judge. again, as you guys have been saying over and over, this is not a jury trial, this is a bench trial. so far the judge last week, i believe it was, already said that he was liable because -- he wasn't found guilty, it's civil -- liable for the claims against him when it comes to defrauding several of the outlier -- of the people who are claiming, insurance companies and so forth. the question now is how much he's going to have to pay. again, the fact that he is showing up -- there are other questions that are going to be dealt with in this courtroom, but the fact that he is showing up is indicative of several things, first of all, is that this is what he holds maybe most dear, his business, it's how he built his name, his reputation, but also about his political campaign. i mean, this is a political campaign event for him and as backwards as that is, because any other candidate would find this shameful and find this a negative, for him he sees it as a positive. >> eric trump. >> dana, we're watching as the trumps come into court. >> jason miller coming in. you're seeing some of the attorneys also flowing in. we have not yet seen donald trump but we have just seen one of his children. donald trump we know is there, we just watched him go into the back of the courthouse. so we are waiting to see when he will be inside the court. >> just to put a finer point on what dana was just saying there, this is no longer a bug of the trump campaign. this is a feature now. the court cases are a feature of the campaign and initially it was the four criminal cases against him. i think this civil case kind of rose its head unexpectedly in the trump campaign has seized on it and is now using it as kate and everyone else has been saying to campaign around and run around. again, we are watching live pictures, we just saw part of trump's entourage into the courtroom. i guess we're waiting to see if he walks by. >> as we continue to watch the hallway here heading into the courthouse, we saw eric trump. he's one of the children that is named in this lawsuit. a handful of other people that are named as well. are they all in the same boat here from this moment on or does it become -- does it peel off? i mean, we focus clearly this is mostly about donald trump and his name, his brand and his organization, but there are other people involved. >> there are five individual defendants at this point. there's donald trump the former president, there's his son donald trump jr., eric trump, allen weisselberg and jeffrey mccanney. >> secret service walking in. >> ivanka trump was originally named as a defendant but the case against her was dismissed basically because it was too old. there also are about ten different corporate entities named in this indictment, all related to donald trump and the trump organization, but to your question, kate, technically speaking we're going to -- the judge needs to return separate verdicts for each of these defendants, each count. so it's possible the judge finds donald trump liable on a certain count but let's say jeffrey mccanney not liable on that account, bigger picture if i'm at the defendant's table i would want my defense to be coordinated with the others. i think i would want to have everyone sort of growing in the same direction here. >> on that note i wanted to ask you, when we were speaking before you said if you were given the option of prosecuting, of trying the criminal indictment that he's facing in new york or the hush money payments or this one, you would choose this one. why? >> i would. again, so we're clear, this is the civil case relating to the overinflation of the value of assets by tens and hundreds of millions of dollars. separately, there is a state-level criminal case relating to the false fiction of business records over those hush money payments. >> this is the first indictment that donald trump faced back in april. >> right. and it's interesting because the ag and the manhattan da at times have worked together to investigate these cases. if you gave me the choice, i think the one that we're seeing today, the overinflation of the assets, is a better case, a stronger case to pursue. i think people can understand it more easily. we're talking about hundreds of millions of dollars in discrepancies. especially, by the way -- and this is one of the big questions, will the ag be able to show some solid loss? was there cheating on taxes that lowered his taxes? was there insurance fraud that cheated the insurance companies out of money? >> that's what she's claiming. >> right. so me and we will see if they can prove that, that's not one of the counts that's already been decided. that's one of the business things to watch. given the choice i think it's a stronger case, i think it's a larger case, i think it's more easy for a jury or a judge to digest. >> it's a much bigger case, more pervasive, the conduct is extreme and she has a much lower standard of prove she has to establish, preponderance. this is partly why the manhattan district attorney didn't pursue this criminal case citing the higher standard of proof in the criminal case. back to the defendants, i think what's going to be interesting is if the attorney general is proceeding on her other causes of action and she said this morning she is, those do require a finding of intent to defraud. the first count that he decided does not. it was essentially an objective assessment of the fraudulent nature of the documents. but for the other causes of action, she does have to show individual intent to defraud so there could be a differentiation among the individual defendants fending on the evidence of their intent to defraud. depending on how the evidence comes in from the various witnesses it could be that the judge finds donald trump sr. did intend to defraud but jr. didn't or something like that and that could affect not only his verdict on those individual causes of action but also the remedy that he imposes as to each of them in terms of whether they are individually barred from holding a corporate office or position. >> can we assume that -- since the court has already ruled that they have defrauded, they have been fraudulent in their dealings, that there will be some sort of damages, where do those go? who are those paid to, since we don't know the insurance companies, the banks. like who is going to get this money in the end, the government? >> yes, those go to the coffers of new york state. that's going to be an interesting question, then, further of sort of to what use they go. but that is where essentially they would be paid into is the treasury of new york state. >> just -- if the judge -- just from the outside looking in, right, if the judge already said that fraud was committed, what are they going to spend three months doing here? >> that's a great question. >> we should make clear there are some counts here that is more than just damages. >> i totally agree. i'm just saying what are they spending three months doing here? >> and those require intent and actually that will take some time. is that what this is going to be about? >> there's actually seven counts in this case, the attorney general has alleged seven violations of law, the first one is persistent or repeated fraud, that's the one the judge has already ruled in the ag's favor last week. there are six other counts that are still to be contested, falsifying business records, falsifying financial statements and insurance fraud and then conspiracy to do each of those three things. that's how we get up to seven. it is in play, one option available to the attorney general's office is to say, look, we won the big one, we won count is, the most important one we don't need to proceed on the other six. clearly the attorney general is not going to make that decision, i think she just sort of amplified that just now, but from a criminal perspective sometimes if you get a guilty plea let's say to count 1 of your indictment you often will say to a judge we don't need to proceed on counts 2 through 7 because we already won count 1. this trial is going to focus on, a, is donald trump liable for those other counts which as we said may require some showing of actual loss -- >> just good friend bob costas. >> and then b what's the amount of damages and they're going to have to prove that up to the judge. >> it may be an additional reason to pursue the additional counts is because what if on appeal the appellate court were to disagree with the judge's ruling. >> what does the appeal process look like here? >> well -- >> where do i begin? >> in the ordinary course from this point forward it would proceed to trial, the case would proceed to trial, the judge would render a verdict. if he were to find trump and the other defendants liable, so render verdict for the attorney general, then at that point once he's entered his final judgment which would include any penalties then it would go up on appeal to the appellate division, which just rendered that decision last week that basically said we are not going to stay the trial. >> gotcha. >> after their decision it could go up to the highest court of new york state, the new york court of appeals. >> we should reiterate what the new york attorney general is seeking, $250 million in damages, big money, a ban from serving as officers of new york business, the judge has already decided he's trying to dissolve those businesses, basically take those licenses away and then a five-year ban on business transactions in new york. these are really big stakes. i wondering, elie, because i think i talked about this with you earlier, because mar-a-lago is part of this, it's in a different state. >> right. >> so can this have impact on whether he can do business in florida, for example, or his actual property in florida? >> it can indirectly. so the judge in new york cannot say i hereby shut down and seize every property across the united states. but as a practical matter if this case goes against donald trump, as it has thus far with the first count, then that can make it difficult to impossible for trump to continue doing business in other states. would they grant certificates to do business and the properties that are in, let's say, other states, they may have to be seized. if there is a judgment for hundreds of millions of dollars that trump can't pay, then that may have to be seized in order to pay that judgment off. one other thing that's important to notice on damages and this is why i think this is different from the other civil cases this is going to be more than just cutting a check. when donald trump lost his judgment to e. jean carroll, $5 million, ultimately he can cut a check. in this instance not only could there be monetary damages but we could also see an ongoing impediment to conducting business. >> wing we just saw the lead counsel here for donald trump enter, i think that's who walked by here. i want to reset so people know what they're looking at on the screen. you're inside the court building now in lower manhattan where donald trump is due to arrive any minute. this is a civil trial from the new york attorney general against him, a judge has already ruled that he committed fraud, he and his corporation committed fraud. today begins the civil trial about how much he's going to have to pay for that as well as some other counts. i do want to bring in john miller right now because, john, you've been in this building more than the rest of us, not because you've had your own legal issues but because you've worked on this process. explain to us where they are. donald trump, we think, will walk by, he could, i imagine, turn and speak to the cameras we just saw moments ago. >> i think we are on the third floor of the state supreme court house. we all know this building, i've been in it more than some, but we know this building as the iconic scene setter where every scene from "law and order" and so many other popular tv shows because of its majesty, it's 32 steps and its 16 pillars and its quote from george washington that the true administration of justice is the firmest pillar of good government. it is an icon as courthouses go, but as we've been watching the hallway, we've seen the secret service agent at the barrier here, we've seen some of the 4,000 new york state court officers that are the security for these buildings across the state, we see mike magliano the chief of the court officers walk by a few moments ago, he was the individual with the four stars on his court officer uniform. and we've been seeing basically the press officer for the office of court administration probably waiting for word as to whether or not cameras will be allowed in the courtroom to take pictures or to record the opening statements as that goes. so it's a lot of activity in a building that's recognized by a lot of people in a civil case. interestingly, it is a block away from the other courthouse at 100 center street where donald trump was brought in for the criminal case, which also included the charge of falsifying business records. so for the court officers of new york state and for these buildings and for the nypd and the secret service, this has become a bit of a familiar set of grounds and routines. >> we're watching this and we're -- we're going to keep an eye trained here. more people entering. that are not donald trump. stick with me, john. paula reid, i know paula has been sticking with us watching -- watching this live job as we were watching this play out on live tv with you. paula, we know that this investigation by letitia james came after michael cohen testified publicly to congress about everything that he saw, he knew and he said that, you know, he witnessed and was involved in. i heard michael cohen say that he's likely to be in the courtroom today, we know he is on the witness list as well. how important is he turning out to be in this what is going to be -- i mean, what this is is donald trump's business empire on trial. >> look, michael cohen's testimony when he sort of turned on the former president because, of course, for a long time he was his fixer, he was a long-time friend and attorney, did a lot of his, quote, dirty work. after he flipped and publicly testified about the former president, that gave investigators a lot to work with because michael cohen alleged and tried to lay out how he believed that the former president had lied about his income, about the value of his assets so that he could pay less in taxes but also get more favorable terms from banks, from insurance companies and other lenders. i mean, that is the kind of crime that investigators would really seize on because it is far easier to investigate and potentially easier to prove if it is true than something, you know, like colluding with a foreign government, things like that. so that testimony really did open the doors for additional investigations and here we've seen in the state of new york it has eventually wound up with the state attorney general here and i think i heard elie say earlier, and i would agree, i mean, this seems to be one of the strongest cases that could be brought in the state of new york, arguably more so than the criminal hush money case which michael cohen also played a big role in that has actually that michael cohen also had a case in. and this is harder to prove. but again, this is a zil case, and michael cohen has played a huge role in this, and it is interesting that he is going to show up, and he has not ceded the limelight and it is not clear how the prosecutor is going on to like him to be here because he is a potential witness here, and it may not be the best thing for the case. >> elie, you wanted to say something about michael cohen? >> do you call him as a witness, but as paula reid said, he is the first one to bring it to our attention, because he brought it to congress, and this inflation and deflation of assets is something that was done all of the time at the trump organization. on the other hand, he has baggage and plead guilty to various fraud and perjury offenses years ago and he obviously and strongly dislikes donald trump to put it mildly, and the real question as a potential witness is how specific is his knowledge, because he has been pressed by this including here on cnn where he has appeared a couple of times, and what specific transaction can you point out the that you know that the value is inflated and cohen's response is usually that i can tell you something that was done generally across the board which is helpful to the a.g.'s office but not what you need to make this case. >> don't they have two people who can tell them, allan weisselberg who has gone to prison for tax evasion, and donald bender who is the accountant, and these were people who were in the books. >> i would not count on alan weisselberg, because he is very much going all of the way and did not flip and he would not testify. >> and i would say he is a enormous distraction and he may not have the specifics and the judge has found for the attorney general for the first count and meaning that he is credited with the documents and the first testimony and the cross-examination, and a huge potential for being side tracked, and i would avoid calling him if i could. >> and let's see if whether or not there is cameras allowed in the courtroom for the opening statements. >> what is the pro/conn on that? >> well, i would be flummoxed if it there were, but on the other hand there is tremendous good public interest, and so there is authority for the judge to permit it. but it would be interesting. >> i would be flummoxed but interested as well. the rule say there should not be cameras inside of a federal court, but when we were in the manhattan case, the judge allowed still photossh and that is how we saw donald trump there. and he set aside time in the beginning, and he said there could be still photographs, but he did not allow live video or audio field sfeed, but there is supposed to be, because the worry is that the jurors would be worried by outside coverage, and sit down to the judge, but i believe it is quite unlikely to have a judge the have televised feed, and if he is going to thread the needle, maybe allowing it for opening, because you are not showing the witness, but we will see, because he would be ruling on that and one of the first openings of business. >> and if you are still there, dana bash with us as to the question of the cameras in the courtroom, and this time around, you would think that on the criminal cases, donald trump did not want them in there initially, and if this time given how public he has been and given how much he has leaned into this specific court appearance if he would want the cameras inside? >> it is hard to imagine that he wouldn't, becausehe cameras waiting for him to come in, and this is his political dream. it is not his business dream to be in the trouble that he is in, the potential to pay millions and millions of dollars, because he now has been found by this judge that he defrauded the taxpayers of new york by making up a lot of the business acumen that he claims that he has, which by the way is part of the way he got to where he is in 2016, because people kind of believed that, but to just of kind of give you the data point of how much the trump campaign is milking this, as we are talking, and waiting for this, i just got a fund-raising email, and i am sure that you got it, too, from trump campaign with a mug "never surrender" with his mug shot on it asking the people on the email chain to give a contribution of $35 or more to help president trump to win back the white house and never surrender, and so he is going after the small dollar donors, and not that $35 is nothing, but when you are comparing it to the small dollar donors to stoke their outrage, and mine their support and raise their money, and he is literally raising money off of these moments right now, and we cannot underscore that and sort of highlight the political move that he is making in this appearance today. >> on that point, dana, let's bring in kristen holmes, and you are getting insight from the trump team of what their view of this trial, and what their view of this day means. >> that is right, kate. a couple of things to point out here. talking about the camera use in the courtroom and if trump wants it, and what is the thinking? they are very aware and following very closely this twist and turn of the cameras. they know where the seats are around the press cameras, and the ruling, and they want the press coverage. and i got off of the phone saying that is similar to a campaign event and not just what dana said about the blast out raising money of the mug shot, but it is based on the fact that as he was leaving trump tower, they put out a blast attacking letitia james the way that you would a campaign rival, and he does want the media attention, and this is not something that he wants in general, and it is damaging to his brand, and the politician in himself, and that he has sold himself as a rich businessman, and in this trial, however, they do know that the cameras are on him when it is coming to the legal issues, and they want the traction, and they believe it is going to help him with the primary voter and when we are looking ahead, there is concern among his top advisers that there is trump fatigue. however, trump himself believes if he can face the charges and paint himself as a victim of election interference, and of the democrats' political insertion into the court system that is something to help him in the election, and potentially could help him with some of the voters down the middle. now, that is going to remain to be seen, and no indication that it is true, but these are the beliefs that they hold as he is going down to courthouse, in front of the cameras, as he is taking this opportunity, as dana said, to milking this to get the most eyes on him at this time partly because it is a campaign event. there is no line between his legal issues and his campaign. he is continuing to campaign off of the legal issues to fund raise off of the legal issues, and it is not going to stop any time soon, and of course, we have seen a rise in the polls as he has done so. >> there he is. we are about to see it, and we have a different angle there. >> there he is, guys. okay. >> and donald trump in the cour courthouse. >> thank you very much. >> step to the right? >> okay. >> step to right, sir. >> are you looking forward to being vindicated? >> yes, i am. >> any comments? >> okay. thank you. this is a continuation of the single biggest witch hunt of all

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