our special coverage continues now on the arrest and arraignment of donald trump. i'm wolf blitzer alongside laura coates. truly an extraordinary and unprecedented day right here in washington, d.c. >> i mean the former president at one point was in the custody of the very government he allegedly tried to overthrow, just a mere step or two from the center of democracy of supporters even attacked on january 6th in the culmination of the plot to overture election.>>onald j. trump arres arraigned for the third time in four months on four federal charges including conspiracy to defraud the united states, conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, conspiracy against rights. the next hearing now scheduled for august 28th when the judge intends to set a trial date. >> and donald trump was standing up in court today, and he actually pleaded not guilty to all four of those criminal charges. and before boarding his private plane to return to new jersey, he was railing against the indictment and trying to recast all of this as what he called persecution. >> this is a persecution of a political opponent. this was never supposed to happen in america. this is the persecution of the person that's leading by very, very substantial numbers in the republican primary and leading biden by a lot. so if you can't beat him, you persecute him or you prosecute him. we can't let this happen in america. >> what happened in that washington courtroom today is just the very beginning. our senior legal affairs correspondent paula reid is here to break down the next steps in a case that's like nothing we've ever seen before in this country. paula, a truly dramatic and historic day. take us inside the courtroom. tell our viewers what happened. >> wolf, it really was extraordinary. here you had the former leader of the free world standing inside a federal courtroom here in washington in his own voice pleading not guilty. now, it's significant he entered this plea on his own because at his other initial appearance and arraignment down in florida on the other federal charges he's facing he had his lawyer enter this plea. so there's an open question about whether he would be the one to stand up and speak during this hearing. and we actually heard him speak several times, and again, it's very different than what we've seen before. we heard him enter his name, agree he understood the charges, and enter that plea of not guilty. and interestingly before the hearing got started, the judge was running late. there was about 15 minutes of a pretty quiet time in the courtroom. people were just milling about, but i'm told it was so quiet you could hear someone clicking their pen. and during that time special counsel jack smith and the former president sort of looked at each other, exchanged glances multiple times. truly extraordinary, wolf. >> paula, the big question tonight as you know is how long it could be before this all goes to trial. what comes next? >> wolf, this looks like it's going to be a rocket docket because judge chutkan, she did not handle today's hearing but she'll handle the case going forward. she's given the government just seven days to tell her when they think they can take this trial and how long the case will take to try. and then the defense attorneys have one week after that to give her the same information because the next hearing is on august 28th, and tat that time she wants to set a trial date. so that really suggests she wants to move this along quickly. wolf, one of the things that could potentially throw off the time line is additional codefendants. we know they continue to interview witnesses so it is possible they could adadditional charges or a codefendant. >> yeah, the special counsel keeps saying this investigation is continuing, so we shall see. paula reid, thank you very much. laura, back to you. >> thanks, wolf. tom foreman is here to help us break down what the former president is forbidden to do possibly now he's been indicted for the third time. tom, talk to me about what restrictions might be in place. we've seen something similar in mar-a-lago about who we can and cannot talk to. is that going to take place here? >> that's a key issue, but, yeah, it will. take a look at the names he was told he either could not talk to at all, but if he's going to talk to them about the case it has to go through his lawyers, so gate keepers who might be able to communicate some way there. mark meadows, mark short, dan scavino, patchrick fillben, ken cuccinelli, on and on it goes. this is a whole lot of people close to donald trump who he now cannot talk about that case, probably a similar case list to this one. these are the people who talked to the grand jury. there are others on another list also included he can't talk to who were interviewed by the special counsel investigators. so a whole bunch of people. the judge was so intent on making sure that donald trump not only understood but acknowledged what he had to do here that he was warned that trump said to him you cannot retaliate against these witnesses. meaning not only can you not talk to them, but you can't do like in the old mob movie the wink and the nod. none of that. and the judge said are you prepared to comply, and in front of the judge and in front of the american people and in front of the flag, donald trump said, yes, and he made a pledge he would play by the rules. >> first of all, that was like an energizer bunny list and kept going and kept going. and remember for the january 6th committee there were a thousand witnesses he spoke to. there could be tons. we know he's heard some part of potential defenses, the first amendment and free speech. we haven't heard how he's handling all these charges. you have any idea? >> well, if you look at what he's put on truth social he's not liking it. he's been arrested for a corrupt, rigged and stolen election. it's a great honor because i was arrested for you, no he's arrested for what he did. i'm headed to d.c. for protesting a crooked election, unfair venue, unfair judge, attacking the judge there and on and on he goes here. i really think if you look at all this what you find yourself saying no matter how you feel about the outcome of this case is the person who puts out this information, attacks the judge and says all this, is that person capable of doing what he pledged in court he would do, following the rules? and if he does follow the rules, if thee tries to communicate with his people and lets them know what he wants, what price might he pay? >> i'm looking at this as a prosecutor and saying i see some of the motions will he file. but attacking a judge might get him in some hot water. and look at this, as you mentioned soon in 2024 it will be our turn. how many times have we heard about the weaponization? >> it's going to be as i think he said last night unprecedented no longer means anything because we're saying it every minute when it deals with issues around donald trump. >> tom, thank you so much. wolf? >> thank you. i want to bring in our experts and analysts to discuss this truly historic day. jim acosta, as all our viewers know you've been face-to-face with trump on many occasions in recent years, in gaggles and press briefings. what to you make of his demeanor today? >> i was used to donald trump being in the white house, and he's gone from being commander in chief to criminal defendant. i guess it was no surprise to hear what he was saying on the tarmac at reagan national airport this was persecution. i think we should be looking for donald trump to pursue a strategy that could be summed up as the two ds, delay in the courthouse and disparage and demeanize out on the campaign trail. i talked to a long time trump advisor in recent days who said it's going to be incredibly difficult for donald trump to win a general election no matter how they campaign over the next 12 months. and so what remain tuesday be seen at this point is as tom and laura were discussing, can donald trump play by the rules? obviously we've seen up until this point he's certainly not going to do that. he has demonstrated time and again that he has no interest in doing that, and i think that's what we should expect to see moving forward. >> kristen, you saw desantis. what did he think? >> i think he sounded defiant and touched on a message he's hit on for years, this sackficial type martyr narrative. he's someone who sacrificed, sacrificed his business career for people who were his supporters. now he's saying i'm taking these slings and arrows from the courts for you. this is part of the reason why there was such a large number of republican who remain devoted to him personally. he's made it about himself, and this feeds that narrative further. >> i want you to listen for a second to see how some of trump's lawyers are already trying to maybe spin this entire moment. listen to this. >> i think that everybody was made aware that he lost the election, but that doesn't mean that was the only advice he was given. if anybody understands what happens in the oval office, there are numerous amount of advisers and politicians and lawyers, not just one or two that are giving you advice and telling you what they believe is true. so he may not agree with mike pence. he may not agree with un of his lawyers, but that doesn't mean there weren't people advising him exactly the opposite. and the president has the right as all of us do to listen to the opinion. >> what do you make of that? >> i think it's baloney and here's why. when the attorney general of the united states, bill barr, tells him there's no fraud, i think you take that to the bank. when the white house counsel says that, you take it to the bank. there is probably only one person who thought the election had been stolen in the white house. that was donald trump. so according to this indictment, there's not one person who truthfully said to him that he won. and the other thing is he made admissions that he had lost. he said to aides how can you believe i lost to this guy. and he asked mike pence on new year's day to reject the certification. and he basically said you're too honest. that's a person who has a guilty mind and knows that he lost the election. >> by the way, pence is now marketing on that as part of his memorabilia paraphernalia campaigns he's doing. but you know how the right hand and left hand are not always on the same body when it comes to having a united front? you heard from the lawyer. i want you now to listen to what trump's daughter-in-law said moments ago. >> let me clear it up for anyone who has questions out there, donald trump believed on the november 3rd of 2020 he won that election, he still continues to believe that. so anyone who says they're lies wants to take note of that. >> you mean the attorney or someone else on that very point? >> well, here's what i want to say. if you go through this indictment and look at those list of witnesses, i was a former prosecutor for a long time. i am salivating because everyone of those witnesses including mark meadows and all the campaign people including steven miller, they knew he lost the election. i want to go back to 1960. john f. kennedy got 306 electoral votes. he beat richard nixon by 118,000 votes. did nixon do this januaryf 6th thing? no. he was a statesman at that time and he said you won. donald trump lost by 7.1 million votes, and he knew that he had no chance of winning other than causing havoc on january 6th. >> well, if he's salivating, i saw you chanting at the bit, jim acosta. >> i was there covering the white house in the days after the 2020 election and talking to aides and advisers who said donald trump knew that he lost the election. and what he was doing from that point forward was trying to orchestrate an administrative or procedural coup. what ended up being almost a coup unfolding before our eyes. i talked to white house advisers who said, yes, he understands he lost and sometimes grumble i can't believe i lost and that sort of thing. we reported and go back and find it online. i think, yes, there's absolutely a state of mind. and one of the things we're going to be looking to in this upcoming trial of the 21st century if you want to call it that is whether or not his former vice president, mike pence, takes the stand and testifies, which i think will be a huge moment. and he says, yes, donald trump did tell me you're being too hoppest. that suggests going to jean's point donald trump was fully prepared to be dishonest. >> can i make one point? motive in a criminal case is one element. mike pence had motive to say the election was stolen because he would remain as vice president. and i've got to compliment mike pence. even though he had the motive to say there was a fraud, he said there wasn't, and i couldn't do this constitutionally and reject the will of the people, so i've got to compliment mike pence on this. >> yeah. >> let me bring jamille into his conversation. the trump lawyers will ask for a change of venue. they don't necessarily think they'll get a fair trial here in washington, d.c. how do you think the judge is going to react to this motion? >> i think donald trump can get a fair trial in d.c. he's got a judge who's seen a number of january 6th defendants who's got a reputation for being a fair and even handed judge. this is fraught matter and everyone is watching here on cnn on every channel. if the president can't get a fair trial here, he can't get a fair trial anywhere. this was the locus of the events that took place that day. it was here that insurrection took place. this is the place to try to case. >> do you agree, eugene some. >> in february march of this year i had a six-week oath keeper trial. great kid, 21 years old, he swallowed the kool-aid. i lost, fought like heck. it was very hard to pick a jury, took us almost a week. and the reason is 95% of the voters in d.c. voted against donald trump. can you get a fair trial here? yes, but it's going to be difficult. jury selection in this case is going to take two to three weeks, and the questions and the answers are going to be really hard to deal with. but i experienced it for six weeks. it can be done. my client's going to appeal, but he could get a fair trial. >> yeah, i suspect you're right. all right, guys, everybody standby. we have a lot to discuss. up next, an advisor to rudy giuliani joins us live after the former mayor is named as a coconspirator in this case. plus tara swisher is here on the very interesting revelation chris christie made to her about jack smith. and presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy also joins us as he defends donald trump. this is cnn's special live coverage. ♪ chevy silverado has what it t takes to do it all. with up to 13 camera views. and the z71 off-road package. ♪ you ok? yeah. any truck can help you make a living. this one helps you build a life. chevy silverado. >> woman: why did we choose safelite? >> vo: for us, driving around is the only way we can get our baby to sleep, so when our windshield cracked, we needed it fixed right. we went to safelite.com. there's no one else we'd trust. their experts replaced our windshield, and recalibrated our car's advanced safety system. they focus on our safety... so we can focus on this little guy. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ trying vapes to quit smoking might feel like progress, but with 3x more nicotine than a pack of cigarettes - vapes increase cravings - trapping you in an endless craving loop. nicorette reduces cravings until they're gone for good. having triplets is... -amazing -expensive. so, we switched to the bargain detergent, but we ended up using three times as much and the clothes still weren't as clean as with tide. so we're back with tide, and the clothes are clean again. do 3x the laundry and get a tide clean. it's got to be tide. with gold bond... you can age on your own terms. retinol overnight means... the smoothing benefits of retinol. are now for your whole body. plus, fast-working crepe corrector diminishes wrinkled skin in just two days. gold bond. champion your skin. the chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make- everyday products, designed smarter. like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that- i need a breakthrough card. like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more. plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases. and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas- a brilliant reality! the ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. 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>> i'll say we can't even confirm if the mayor is one of the coconspirators. if you read this thing, it reads like some sort of fiction novel. and i can tell you by talking with the mayor, the facts don't align with what the mayor knows occurred. so i can't even get to the point where i can confirm this based off of what's in this thing. >> what has the mayor said to you specifically about the allegation. >> sorry. >> thank you. what has hahe said to you about what he thought to be coconspirator one? >> before we even get to what the mayor and i have have discussed on this matter, i want to give you an example, right. this indictment and this document cites trial by combat, right? it cites the mayor discussing trial by combat. what it fails to include is the fact that the mayor's use thaf otterm was clearly in relation to comparing the mechanical functions of different voting machines, right? and an obama appointed judge in a related case even said as much. what the mayor said that day was constitutionally protected speech, and in no way did he mean any violence with the term "trial by combat." so that's just one of many examples. >> excuse me. so, ted, having said that statement you do believe he is referenced in in the indictment based on what you just said and the explanation you've given. my question directly is has he received a target letter from special counsel at all? >> we haven't -- the mayor has not heard from the special counsel, no. >> in terms of that has he been contacted at all by federal prosecutors to either give testimony, to respond to questions in some way? >> look, as you know and cnn reported, he voluntarily met with the special counsel. and that comes back to my earlier point. what we see in this -- how many pages is this thing? what we see in here are a set of facts in relation to what they're saying telling you is related to the mayor and what i can tell you is the facts just don't align. >> what i'm reviewing you're calling leaks, and i'm calling allegations. as you naturally know it's going to be up to the prosecutors to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. jack smith released of this. is giuliani expecting to be indicted? >> let's not talk about what he may or may not be expecting. let's talk about the dangerous nature of what's going on here. what they're doing is attacking president trump's first amendment rights. this is a -- they're eviscerating the first amendment by indicting -- >> can you explain specifically how you feel this is addressing the first amendment? because they only seem to reference his statements in connection with them as a conduit of a conspiracy allegation. >> the biden administration is going after their top opponent in the upcoming election by weaponizing the federal government. i mean that's clearly what's happening here, and you don't even have to be a supporter of president trump to see that. in fact, i think you're seeing a number of folks who don't even support president trump coming to his defense because they see just the ridiculous nature of what's going on and what a dangerous precedent this would set moving forward. >> let's talk about the precedent because, one, be clear for the audience for them to necessarily follow along in particular, just because a politician says something does not make it the level of political speech the courts will evaluate to figure out whether the government has infringed on those rights. it has to be something that according to these allegations they believe goes beyond political speech. in fact, you can criticize, the terms they use you could contest, you could challenge. >> yeah, you could raise concerns, for example. >> excuse me. let me finish what i have to say. i want everyone to get the benefit of hearing what you have to say. you can actually contest, you can challenge. but i think the point you were going to raise is they're alleging a conspiracy, and so you've spoken about the first amendment on trial, but this does not appear to dictate that particular aspect. do you believe that rudy giuliani in his are protected political peach some. >> the president is well within his rights to raise concerns when he's being told by a variety of individuals about happenings, things that occurred on election day leading up to the election. he's allowed and well within his rights to raise concerns about these issues. what's happening here is the sitting president, the ruling regime is attempting to criminalize the very -- the very idea and act of raising concerns when we had no doubt hundreds if not thousands of american citizens across this country raise concerns in all these different areas about what they saw election day. >> that's an important point you raise in terms of potential defense that is being used. and i would note particularly with rudy giuliani with who you're speaking about in particular, he recently actually admitted that his statements were defamatory. >> see, that's not true. that's not true. he did not admit -- he didn't admit to anything of the sort. >> what he -- i believe what he admitted to that he was self-observing his first amendment rights. he did not believe damages could actually be attached to it, but he did agree the statements he made with respect to election workers were inaccurate. does he believe to this day that -- >> he did not admit a single thing. what he did was make a legal maneuver in order to get to a point in the case that allows a motion to dismiss. you're a lawyer to suggest -- >> oh, i am. >> to suggest anything else is disingenuous. >> that'll be interesting from the judge's perspective to note a legal maneuver as opposed to a statement that they have made on the record. but i want to hone in and stick to the facts here of what we understand, and i rely on you to relay that information to me. does rudy giuliani sitting here today although he is obviously not with you, does he believe that the election, in fact, was stolen and that the statements he's made in the past, in fact, are true, that trump did, in fact win the election? does he believe that? >> so i hear this word believe, and i hear it so much about this issue, right? and it's not even necessarily about what the mayor believes, right? it's about what he knows. it's about what been brought to his attention. it's about anything and all the work he put into this. so it's not even about what he believes. and i want your audience to remember what we're talking about. we're talking about arguably the most effective prosecutor in the last 100 years in this country, somebody who took down the mafia. this man cleaned up the streets of new york. look at the wall street criminals he put behind bars. think of all the corruption cases he handled including members of congress. look -- remember how he comforted the nation following 9/11. so not only is this someone bringing forth facts and discussing what he knows to be true about the 2020 election, but this is a man who's proven himself time and time again with a career in public service that's second to none. >> i understand the reference points. he's also no longer a barred attorney based on his conduct based on what he's done recently. that's not true, right? i don't believe that's true. the bar hearings are ongoing. are they? >> you fail to put that in the conversation in terms of the challenges as an attorney. i want to clarify that record. >> i want to clarify one thing, though. those are ongoing proceedings with the bar association. those are ongoing proceedings. >> og, thank you. ted, my final question to you. has he been approached with respect to a possible plea arrangement? and if he were by special counsel would he take it? >> my understanding to this point he hasn't heard from special counsel, and i want to thank you for giving us the opportunity this evening to give our perspective, and we hope to talk again soon. >> great, but before you go answer my final question, which was if he was approached with a plea -- >> i'm not in a position to give you an answer on that question. again, i want to thank you for giving me the opportunity this evening and allowing us to give you our perspective on what's happening here in this just ridiculous assault on the first amendment. >> i look forward to that answer when it comes. ted goodman, thank you so much. >> all right, we're back with our panel right now. and jim acosta, i'm anxious to get your thoughts. rudy giuliani and these other five coconsperteres, are they going to end up being a real potential threat to trump? >> i mean absolutely. just to play off what ted was saying a few moments ago, it's refreshing to hear trump and his team embrace the first amendment. that's nice to hear that on their part. that wasn't the case when they were in office. but in terms of, you know, they can say we believe the election was stolen and we had all these sort of points of view and we're trying to pursue legal strategy just in case the election it turned had some shenanigans going on and so on. it doesn't get them off the hook when it comes to trying to go around the country and round up a bunch of republican operatives in various states to come up with alternate slates of electors and so on, a part of this fraudulent scheme they went about trying to put together. he was certainly trying to skirt around a lot of these issues. i don't think, yes, to your question, wolf, that rudy giuliani, john eastman. i don't think that motley crew is going to be a big help to donald trump when it comes to when he's on trial. and i think he has to worry less about these potential coconspirators that may be indicted in all this, and he needs to worry more about who may be testifying in all this. might mark meadows be one of these star witnesses? and as we were saying earlier former vice president mike pence. >> good point. everybody standby. there's a lot more we're following. up next kara swisher joins us live on what chris christie revealed to her about his role in the investigation. and one of trump's other rals is defending the former president. he's joining us live as well. stay with us. the long-lasting scent of gain flings made it smell like dave was in his happy place... ...the massage chair at the mall. but...he wasn't. gain flings with oxi boost and febreze. your wyndham is waiting. ♪ when bucket lists need checking... points need redeeming... work trips need crushing... or anniversaries need... celebrating? no matter who you are, where you're going, or why. with 24 trusted brands by wyndham to choose from... your wyndham is waiting. get the lowest price at wyndhamhotels.com when i first learned about my dupuytren's contracture, my physician referred me to a hand specialist. and i'm glad he did, because when i took the tabletop test, i couldn't lay my hand flat anymore. the first hand specialist i saw only offered surgery. so, i went to a second hand specialist who also offered nonsurgical options — which felt more right for me. so, what i'd say to other people with dupuytren's contracture is this: don't wait — find a hand specialist trained in nonsurgical options, today. i found mine at findahandspecialist.com. so, you've got the power of xfinity at home. now take it outside with xfinity mobile. like speed? it's the fastest mobile service around. with the best price for two lines of unlimited. only $30 bucks a line per month. that's hundreds in savings a year when you wave bye to the other guys. no wonder xfinity mobile is one of the fastest growing mobile services. you really shouldn't walk out the front door without it. switch today at xfinitymobile.com former new jersey governor chris christie who's challenging donald trump for the 2024 republican presidential nomination and is one of the former president's most vocal critics says he was actually questioned in one of the trump investigations. although he will not reveal which one. he did tell kara swisher on her podcast he was honest in his answers. he also says he believes trump fears that he could go to jail. listen to this. >> i think there's no doubt in my mind that more nights than not whether he's in bedminster or mar-a-lago he gets out of bed, the lights go out, and he's staring at the ceiling thinking i could go to jail. >> let's go more on what chris christie had to say. joining us now is kara swisher, the host of the podcast "on with kara swisher." he's revealed he's been in one of these trump investigations. what did he tell you? >> well, a lot of things. but i think the january 6th investigation is what he was talking about because he was talking about his state of mind or the intent of the election fraud. he was talking about his state of mind, obviously their breaks for lots of reasons. and he feels as if he has a lane to be in even though he's way down in the polls, but there's a lane if donald trump, you know, has more legal problems and can't continue the race. that's his debt i guess. >> he said when he's president he'll give me an interview. i think there's a lane here for someone else who's not donald trump. >> they're political opponents christie and trump. >> well, i think he thinks he's scared of going to jail. he recounted a dinner that he had with him. >> christie had with -- >> with trump. and i think this was a new jersey senator of some sort, senator and trump said he's really going to jail, he's really going to jail and seemed terrify. and that was interesting, that he cannot imagine finally having to pay the legal price that looks like he may have to pay. >> does christie believe trump could go to jail? >> i think so. he definitely thought the possibility was there because of the possibility of jail time hanging over his head. but until then he would take advantage of it and raise money which he's already done, which he did the next day. >> christie is obviously running as a republican, he is a republican but he seems to be taking a very different tone on this investigation. listen to this. >> i don't think there's anything political about what jack smith is doing. >> how effective is it calling it a witch hunt and stuff li that? it seems to be effective among his supporters. >> i think it's effective among his supporters. i think once you get in the courtroom it's not effective at all. >> with election lies. >> do you think voters are listening to christie? >> i think ultimately he's talking to suburban voters, independent people that are persuadable and that's what i think he's talking about that people are tired of it. and i have several trump fans in my family and they're tired of it. they're tired of the cases. they certainly aren't rallying around trump the way they were. >> what do you think trump today going out there and sumging he's some sort of martyr? >> and getting into a giant limo, sure, and his own plane with tons of lawyers. i think the thing is people are tired of it. there's a silent majority of people tired of it. they worry about their kids, the economy, a.i. and i think they're tired of the circus and that's what it is a circus. >> kara swisher joining us. be sure to check out her podcast, it's excellent. >> well, while chris christie is bashing trump, another candidate said he would give the former president an immediate pardon. that's vivek ramaswamy and he'll join me live next. their team of independent tax attorneys will work with your cpa to determine if your company is eligigible. 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(warehouse ambience) introducing togo's new french dip sandwiches featuring fresh artisan bread piled high with tender roast beef, smothered with melty provolone cheese and served with hot au jus for dipping. try the roast beef or pastrami french dips today only at togo's the former president pleading not guilty today at his historic third arraignment now on charges of trying to use his authority to stay in power. the question is will the new charges actually change his primary opponents in the way they handle trump on the trail? joining me now republican presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy. thank you for joining us this evening. vivek, i'll say today you did announce at a campaign event that you would not actually say that biden was legitimately elected. and i wonder why it is you are reluctant to acknowledge that. >> well, precisely what i said in new hampshire earlier today is that big tech is actually the one that interfered with the election. there is good evidence. i'm data driven, strong polling data that said if that hunter biden laptop story had been released rather than suppressed on the eve of that election, that likely would have changed the electoral result. that is hard fact in this country. now from "the new york times" to cnn will admit that was true and grounded in fact and a lot of corruption that was laid out late to bear then that was systematically suppressed. and i think that's the single greatest form of election interference risk that we face in this election as well is technology companies suppressing valid information that the voters need to access to make informed decisions, and i standby that. >> vivek, i'm glad you mention and i'll of course leave it to voters to decide what was theropy they would choose a particular candidate. because you say you are evidence driven and you want to make sure the voters have all the information they need to make an informed decision about who represent them, do you agree it should have an opportunity these cases against donald trump should have the opportunity to have airing before the actual voters? they have a decision as either the jurors or also as voters to know how they should actually select their next president. >> so i want to say something very clearly. my self-interest would be to have donald trump eliminated from competition. i'm polling at third in the republican national primary right now. if trump were out of the way it would be a lot easier for me. but i don't want to win this election that way. on principle, not on politics, on principle we should not be a country where the party in power uses police force to indict its political opponents in the midst of an election. and laura, i have a basic rule of thumb. if you are going to indict a political opponent in the middle of an election it better darn not be based in untested legal theory. yet that's exactly the case in each of the three indictments. i think it's no accident you see three independent indictments on novel legal theories coming down at the exact same time during an election, and i think this is going to be a grave threat to public trust in the justice system going forward. i'm in this race to unite the country, and i'm sad to say that as our next president, which i expect to be, it's going to make my job that much more difficult to uthiet this nation when we have set this precedent of the politicization and weaponization of our justice system. >> two points. one, there's nothing novel about a conspiracy charge against somebody, as someone often charged as a defendant or in and out of every day americans. that's part of why it's the criminal code. do you have concerns this talking point often raised about the biden administration or the department of justice being weaponized. i mean we're talking about 115 or more thousand employees at the department of justice, 40 separate departments and 40 separate counter parts, et cetera. you've got divisions like national security and anti-trust and tax and civil rights just to name a few. to suggest there's weaponization do you think it would be difficult if you do get the responsibility to lead the executive branch, you are beginning with the proposition that the entirety of the department of justice is weaponized? >> so i want to respectfully disagree with the first part of what you said. this is absolutely an unprecedented legal theory. there's a supreme court case called alvarez in 2012 that expressly held a candidate for political office and a publicly elected official has a first amendment right to engage in, yes, false speech. that's hard supreme court case precedent. is that good judgment on behalf of that elected official? no, it's not. but every bad judgment is not a crime. so this is absolutely unprecedented. it is also unprecedented for the four coconspirators to be attorneys who are offering legal advice. for an attorney to use a legal theory and be criminalized for giving a client advice, that endangers the legal my view is that many of these bureaucracies, starting with the fbi, have become corrupted at a level that is really incorrigible. that is why i have said, it as u.s. president, i will shut down the fbi. we will take this 35,000 employees, 15,000 of them that are agents doing real work on the front lines, will re-organize them to the u.s. marshals, to the drug enforcement agency, to the financial crimes enforcement network. agencies that have not been politicized. but this is an agency whose history is still dating back to the legacy of j edgar hoover, it is still the j edgar hoover building of the fbi that people are walking into. and the remarkable part of this is that if you rewind a few decades ago, it was the left that was complaining about the politicization and unfairness of the fbi. today it is the right. to me it is not a partisan issue left versus right, that is a formula for corruption and as our next president i will shut down. >> many people didn't have on their bingo card that republicans would be calling the fbi or law enforcement of our nation and disparaging them. but you will not get argument from me of the legacy of j edgar hoover, particularly -- what you will get pushed back, from a great variety of people, is this notion of the unprecedented nature of what we are talking about. i want to hone in once again on this point. conspiracy is quite a common charge to have, but also, first amendment and protected speech -- >> and conspiracy to commit what? >> i do know that, which i stated it quite precisely that it is in fact a commonly charged crime, that the actual indictment does outline what the allegations are here, but my point with respect to protected speech. certainly there are supreme court cases that talk about the fact that protected and political speech is sank or st., but the notion here, they allege that it went beyond that in the form of action in conspiring to try to undermine the peaceful transition of power, and for that i wonder that you've made it very clear that you intend and hope to be able to, if you are the president, to pardon donald trump. do you think that the american people have a right, however, for the justice process to conclude before you make that statement? >> look, my assumption is that the worst statement of the facts for the defendant was exactly what you see in the indictment. and each of these three indictments. it's a reasonable assumption, the prosecution states its harshest case in the indictment. i have read all three and an all three of the indictments i believe they are politicized, i believe the leverage novel even the series, i believe that if it had been anybody without the last name of trump they would not have brought those indictment under those circumstances. in the interest of moving the nation forward, and yes that will be my job as our next president, to unite our country and to move forward towards a national revival, it will absolutely be in the interest of this nation to heal and move forward by making sure that, a, we pardon from, and be, we void the president of this kind of politicization of the government. that is the clear right answer. we can go through each of those indictments, from the original in new york, alvin bragg an individual who pledged to run for office on the pledge of investigating this man. who brought a first in class legal theory. to the documents case which failed to mention the presidential records act to now this new one which actually criminalizes the seeking of good faith legal advice, calling that a conspiracy instead. and completely flaunting the president at alvarez. it's not an accident that you see these three cases at the same time, and i'm sorry to stay that people who have lost their trust in the justice system has lost that trust for good reason and it's going to make my job the next president 's job, more difficult to rebuild it, which also gives me a sense of urgency to speak out even though it is against my interest running against trump in the primary. >> on the president point of it, and again, i pushed back quite sternly of course on the notion that there is something novel about a case that involving some of the claims that were made with the classified documents, but we don't need to quibble about our own interpretation. i will leave that for jurors. i will ask, you when you are looking at all of this and you're looking at the precedent, do you have some concerns about a precedent that you will not seek to pursue justice if you are a prosecutor against somebody simply because they are a candidate for office? wouldn't that such an awfully dangerous precedent if we were to simply contest that? i know, of course, jack smith is somebody who has been prosecuting against officials against some who don't have the last name trump. john edwards, people in the hague's, well and we could go on with the public integrity section as well. do you have concerns that there will be a real concern and loss of faith among the american people with respect to how they perceive our institutions if they do not even endeavor to pursue justice? >> my view is that nobody is above the law but nobody is below the law either and, you know what, if you just take each of these indictments there are deeply suspect circumstances, facts, omission of fact and law. in my view there is a dual standard of justice in the united states now. i also said it is part of my campaign. i have pledged, for example, to also pardon julian assange. this is an individual who sits in foreign exile, even as the person who leaked the documents to julian assange, chelsea, manning had her sentence commuted by president obama because she is a member of a favorite political class. she is transgender. that is two standards of justice based on your political beliefs. now you have one for biden, another for trump. this is not sustainable in our country, we have to have one standard of justice for all americans. you and i have a deep disagreement on whether or not this indictment actually sticks to prior legal precedents. i don't think either the three do, they are all novlan their own way and it is a disastrous judgment in setting out a president of letting political candidates go, as you know, plenty of political candidates who have committed cut and dry fraud claims or otherwise have appropriately been prosecuted. but the reality is that, in this particular case, the fact that this came in the middle of an election, the timing of this all of the cases coming at the exact same time. let's call a spade a spade. this is to stop one man from successfully holding office, it is not the way that we want to do things in the united states of america. the voters should consider this information when making their judgment of how they vote, but not using the police state to eliminate competition from running, that is an awful president in this country and i am worried that if we fail to acknowledge that, what we saw even on dark days like a january 1st, 2021 -- january 6th, 2021. i worry that will be the beginning of our march towards a national divorce, it's not where i want to see us go. i'm deeply worried about it. i'm in this race to lead a national revival, but we have to be able to move on from the past to the future to do it. >> i understand your position and i think president obama would deeply disagree with your assessment of the reasons why he was motivated to commute the sentence of chelsea manning, but, finally, i guess it is very clear that either of us will be a part of the jury selection process in any of these three different indictments and if there is a fourth, somehow i think they're going to pass us over in the process. but as you say, you are evidence and data driven so i wonder if the jurors will have an opportunity to see that evidence in a trial before they make their decision at the polls. ramaswamy, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> let's get some reaction from our panel, jean rosa, you are a former federal prosecutor. what did you think? >> closing down the fbi, 35,000 employees with whom i worked for 20 years it breaks my heart that our presidential candidate is saying that. the fbi to me is a beacon throughout the world of an agency that tries to do the right thing regardless of fear or favor. i disagree. >> look, he makes interesting point about these novel legal theories. the current indictment, the conspiracy of defrauding it does have some novelty to it. the idea, the mar-a-lago case is at all novel is laughable. the deck as wrong about this, the these cases have been brought time and time again for people who mishandled classified information. he's right, chelsea manning was pardoned, or had her sentence commuted by obama not because she is transgender to because what he believes about what she did. i think it's a terrible precedent to depart in her, it encourages more people to reveal classified information, but it has nothing to do with what he is saying. so the idea that he's trying to bring the country together, while his own words seek to divide the country it is just not accurate. and, at the end of the day, when he talks about donald trump and getting past it here is the reality. the reason why we are not passed it is because every day, donald trump is out there banging the drum, about how the election was stolen from him. it is not because of these charges, it's because of what trump did on january six and what he is doing today. what he did there on the tarmac at a dca as he left the city after being indicted, saying this is political persecution. the reality is we are all here today because donald trump sent his supporters, who he knew were armed, and had weapons and said go march on the capitol, i'm coming with you. >> but i think it is important to note that actually what he said on the ellipse on january 6th is actually is not what is in the indictment. i worry that by calling at the january six indictment that it allows this message that you heard vivek ramaswamy make, and many of

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