Its very significant. The weight of resources are no longer in your favor, i dont care how much money you necessarily have. What theyre doing now is likely expected a not guilty plea where he will formally tell the court he has notice of all the charges against him, and they will set some date in the future in terms of when he will have to either have discovery provided to him, there likely is not going to be a Motion Schedule for the things that you would argue about what would come into evidence, thats going to be longer down the road. But the notion of a rap sheet is so significant with these different indictments, particularly because of this reason normally if somebody has charges against them, trials in the same vicinity, youre talking about maybe if they are convicted theyre going to run concurrent sentences, meaning this one will run on top of the other and the other. Its not going to be youll serve five years for this one, then ten years for another, five for the next. It will run together. These cases so far are of different incnatures. They wont have the same factual basis. The court will likely say sentences could run consecutive. Youre talking about a significant amount of time. This is the Magistrate Judge, not the judge who will ultimately hear the case. Youve heard about that particular judge. Its significant nonetheless because right now, being treated, as he should be, as every other defendant in america who has to come before a court, not appear through zoom, although he could have here, and actually show up. I will applaud for a moment we joked how jack smith was at subway getting the Subway Sandwich shop. He was not hiding. Hes in the courtroom today. Hes in the courtroom before the person whos called him deranged, before the people that question whether he has a political axe to grind. He is showing up to present and recall what he said when the indictment was unsealed. It is up to the jury to have the evidence tested, and if the Presumption Of Innocence is there, you have the presumption now of the credibility of a prosecutor disstanding behind t decision. Youre watching the lead, and we have coverage of donald trump being arrested and arraigned for a third time. This time in a washington, d. C. , courthouse. And kerry cordero, arguably this is the most important of all of the cases including the pending possible indictment in georgia. Certainly a more consequential and taken more seriously than the new york case from alvin bragg, the District Attorney there. But possibly more significant even than the classified documents case, as well. It is. I think from a Historical Perspective this case is the most important case. Its about the functioning of democracy. Its about the allegations that the former president and his coconspirators tried to overturn the outcome of an election. It really doesnt get more important than that. The classified documents case are allegations of serious crimes with mishandling Classified Information and obstruction of that investigation. Those are serious federal crimes. But there are other individuals in the country over years who have been charged with those crimes. No former president has been charged with this. I think the historical significance is really important. I also want to follow up from something that katelyn and my colleague david aaron were speaking about which is the fact in this case right now the former president is the only defendant. And while i understand that there may be strategic reasons why the Special Counsel did that in terms of the case potentially being able to move more quickly, i do think from an optics standpoint and from how the public will understand this case it is important that they understand it was a conspiracy of more than one person, a conspiracy under the law requires more than one person. And the fact that we dont yet know who the other named coconspirators are, from the Justice Department, the reporting can speculate about who they are. But from the Justice Department, they are not named as coconspirators. I think that matters in terms of how the country understands that this wasnt just about the former president , this was a plot, this was a plot by numerous individuals who were lawyers, who were advisers, who worked together with the former president , the Justice Department alleges, to overturn the outcome of the rightful election. And George Conway, the other big difference between this and the fudging of Business Records to hire up the hushmoney payment to Stormy Daniels in new york and the classified documents case is there are 330 million americans who witnessed a lot of this take place on television. Now obviously we didnt know the extent of the conspiracy, especially when it came to the fake electors plot. But we did see a lot of it. How strong do you think the case is . I think the case is extremely strong. I think its extremely strong because we have so many people there is going to be this parade of people, some of whom are conspirators, some of whom are not, who are telling trump that, you know, he had to he lost the election. And theres its going to be ebbs tensive evidence from people who worked for donald trump, again. And that i think is going to make a big difference at the end of the day because the only Public Relations gambit that they really have is that somehow trump is being framed for this. But its his own people providing the evidence against him. Yeah. Let me go to paula reid because im curious as to whats going on inside that courtroom right now. Paula, youre standing outside. What are your sources telling you . What is donald trump doing, what is he going through . What can you tell us . Reporter well, jake tapper, my best sources now are our colleagues who are inside the courtroom, inside the media room. They tell us that the former president and jack smith are seated just about 15 feet away from each other. Now apparently the two men have exchanged several looks as they await this hearing to get under way. Were told it as very quiet in the courtroom now. The former president is seated with his lawyers, hes been signing some paperwork, talking to them for a little while. Most of the courtroom could hear what they were discussing because they were on a microphone that was on. When they realized that, they pushed that away. Of course, they dont the assembled media to hear the legal advice that they are giving their client. The prosecutors are seated at a different table, several prosecutors from the Special Counsels team. Again, jack smith is not expected to participate in this hearing, but his presence is notable. Again, this is one of the only times that he will come face to face with the former president before this case goes to trial. He also attended the initial appearance down in florida. Right now our colleagues in the courtroom, theyre telling us that theyre still waiting for this to get under way. Okay. Paula reid. Thank you so much. Andy mccabe, as former Deputy Director of the fbi, tell us your view of what you think is going on in there now, and are there Law Enforcement officials beyond the prosecutors from the Special Counsels office . Typically there are. This is obviously not a typical situation. But typically the defendant surrenders at the courthouse, is taken into custody by Law Enforcement, be they fbi agents if its an fbi case or u. S. Marshals, and go through processing. Thats where the photographs are taken, fingerprints are taken. And biographical information is taken from the defendant, their name, how they spell it, date of birth, sorts of basic facts. And while it seems mundane, that is actually the information thats put into a system we refer to as ncic, the National Criminal index information centers. And thats what forms your rap sheet or your your arrest history essentially. So its you have to have that information. The company with the photograph and the fingerprints in order to make that entry. And thats that essentially establishes the First Official record of the arrest which follows you for the rest of your life. Eventually there will be a new entry that resolves that indicates how those charges were resolved. But if you walk into a gun shop to purchase a firearm and go through the background, the federal background check, it will come up that you were arrested on this date in this courthouse for the following charges and how those were resolved, which could ultimately deny you the privilege of purchasing a firearm. So its a mundane process but one that follows you the rest of your life. Whether or not thats happening for the president , well have to find out. Jamie . I just want to take a step back. We would not be here today if it wasnt for the january 6th committee, for liz cheney, the republican, thenrepublican congresswoman, making a break with her party, with nancy pelosi. The two of them working together. Doj was not anxious to bring this case. We know that from our reporting. But i think we have to look back at those hearings. They interviewed more than 1,000 witnesses, there were bombshells like Cassidy Hutchinson who spoke out. What im obviously waiting for here is the trial. I mean, last night we heard Attorney General for donald trump bill barr say he believed looking at the indictment that the evidence laid out there was the tip of the iceberg. What dont we know . Is mark meadows cooperating . He was noticeably absent from the indictment. Will mike pence be called to the stand . And to go back to your point, carrie, about it being a streamlined indictment, my understanding from justice sources is they are going to try to move this as quickly as possible and go to trial before the election. Whether or not that happens, whole other thing. But that is the goal. Theres a reason why in the criminal Justice System president s are not in the cross hairs per se. That is because it is dealt with constitutionally through congress, through the impeachment process. We have to remember he was impeached for this very thing. He didnt get convicted by the senate, but the house did impeach him. I think thats probably why going back to right after this happened there was some trepidation inside the doj about making this a criminal matter, but now it is. Now what were seeing is many people are numb to the fact that hes getting indicted three times in four months. But this is the only one that has to do with an alleged crime that he committed while in office about his office, and about not just his office but the fundamentals of the democracy that allows presidency to even exist. George, let me ask you, of the charges there are four charges against donald trump in this indictment what do you think is the strongest one . What do you think is the weakest one . I think theyre all pretty much strong. I think its pretty clear that he did commit a fraud on the United States, thats the first charge, section 371. He used lies and trickery and used the false electoral certificates to try to Corrupt The Process and to try to stop the process. That also you know, basically its a glove that fits in different ways, you put it on in different ways. Youve got the other charges of obstructing a congressional proceeding, conspiring to obstruct a congressional proceeding, and the last one, 241, the charge that was interference with the Voting Rights of all americans. All of those fit in different ways, but they fit nicely. And the secotion 371 charge, its important to know it doesnt really matter whether donald trump thinks that in some broad sense the election was stolen from him. The fact what matters is the fact that he used lies to fix what he perceived to be a problem, if he perceived to be a problem. I agree with bolton, i agree with barr that trump clearly understood that he lost the election, he was told that by multiple people. The fact of the matter is if just because you think you were wrong, its the two wrongs dont make a right thing that bolton referred to. Doesnt mean that you can use lies to overcome the problem. And the analogy i like to use is the o. J. Case. Not the murder case, but the case in which he was sent to jail for in nevada where he thought these items, these Memorabilia Items that he was trying to get back, belonged to him rightfully. But he used a gun, he used a gun and held people at gunpoint to take the items back. Here trump maybe he thought thought so, i dont think he did, but he won the election in some abstract sense, but he used lies and used pressure on the Vice President , on secretary raffensperger, to compel them to violate the law. And that fits all of these counts perfectly. First of all, the second that George Conway mentioned glove, i knew an o. J. Reference was coming. Knew it was coming. We followed the actual vehicle. We knew it was coming. To me, the civil rights lawyer within me is saying the fact that had a motorcade, too had a motorcade, too, and a white car fact that the Special Counsel has prosecuted charges involving deprivation of rights at a time when the Supreme Court although most recently in this term has tried to buttress the power of the Voting Rights act and gerrymandering and antigerrymandering, were at a time when Voting Rights have been on the Chopping Block for quite some time in this country. When we talk about the notion of this being a Clear And Present Danger and ongoing threat as former congresswoman liz cheney spoke about beyond, this was their signal to say this could be an ongoing threat. Part of the goal of prosecution is not only just to punish, its also to deter conduct. So trying to ensure this will not happen again is very significant. General specific deterrent. Specific deterrents of this one individual who, as bolton pointed out, secretary bolton pointed out to jake, he he would try to finish the job if he gets back into office. Lets throw it back to anderson in new york. Anderson . Thank you so much. I want to check in with paula and katelyn outside the courthouse. Explain where were at in this proceeding. Reporter well, our colleagues who are inside the courthouse giving us minutebyminute updates. I have attended dozens and dozens of hearings inside this court. Its amazing that what theyre describing is similar to any other defendant. Just waiting for a judge judges are typically late. Picture the scene, you have an empty bench where the judge would sit, and then you have two tables. One for the prosecution team, and one for the defense. And our colleague describes how trump is sitting there with his hands folded. Hes looking down. He is discussing things with his lawyers. He has a lot of questions, it appears, about the papers on his table. Hes discussing it with his lawyers. His lawyers are taking great pains so all the reporters in the room cant hear what theyre discussing. One of his lawyers is putting his hand over his mouth as he discusses something with the former president. Were told its so quiet in the room right now that you can hear someone in there somewhere clicking a pen. Now the only big difference inside this courtroom right now is the significant Security Presence. They say there are seven, seven marshals guarding the door to the courtroom, while usually have a Security Presence in a federal courtroom. That is really one of the only details that sticks out right now that reminds us how extraordinary it is that a former president is once again sitting inside a federal courtroom. It looks like right now they have said all rise, the judge is in. It appears the judge is on the bench, and the hearing is under way. So right now the hearing appears to be under way. The Special Counsel prosecutors have begun to speak to the jujudge mab mablean to the judge, and well have updates from the courthouse. Who is in the room . Reporter One More Time . Kaitlan collins, can you talk about the attorneys for the former president who are in the room . Reporter yes. This is really interesting actually. Weve been talking about the two who were representing them in the case, todd blanch and john lauro, that are here. Were also looking from our reporters in the room that Evan Corcoran is also there. And thats notable because obviously Evan Corcoran, hes a former assistant u. S. Attorney, has worked inside here. He also reported steve bannon. Most notably is a witness against trump in the documents case. He is the attorney that trump, according to the indictment, tried to mislead when it came to whether or not where the documents were placed, he had notes that he took on his phone about interactions he had with trump about plucking documents out that trump thought were bad ones. And he had to go and Attorney Client privilege was pierced and speak to jack smiths investigators in that case. Thats separate obviously than the reason why trump is in the courtroom today. Its notable that he is in there today. He has not yet entered his name on this case from what we have seen in the court filings, but he is in the back of the room. That means hes not at the counsels table with trump and john lauro and todd blanch. But it is notable that he is in the room. Also the fact that donald trump and jack smith are sitting 15 feet apart from each other right now, occasionally glancing at one another, but the fact that that is happening and that this is a very normal process, as paula described, even though its very not normal given trump has attacked jack smith as deranged, called him a crack head. He implied he had something to do with the cocaine found at the white house which obviously we know is not true. Those two men are seated 15 feet apart from one another inside this courtroom right now, just really speaks to the moment that were in. Obviously trump and his allies have been attacking jack smith, talking about defunding him, taking away his paycheck essentially. As even people like bill barr were defending him saying hallohes not a partisan actor. Wife been told the former president has been sworn in. I want to bring in paula, what are you hearing . Reporter thats right. Following along from our colleagues inside the courthouse, they say that the former president was just sworn in. He put up his right hand and vowed to swear we dont know if were going to hear him say anything today in terms of whether he has to be truthful. Its likely he may ask his lawyers to enter the plea. Hes being treated like any other defendant. And the judge also advised everyone before this started that there is no recording. This is a significant issue. There are no cameras in federal courthouses which is why we are relying now on our extraordinary reporters inside to give us this momentbymoment updates, even this is pretty extraordinary. You dont even get the opportunity to report on hearings live in every federal courthouse. Theyre asking the former president to state his full name on the record. The judge has said he doesnt have to stand to answer these questions. Now theyre going back and forth about whether he needs to stand up to answer these questions. Look, this is the kind of confusion you could have in any hearing. This is not specific to the former president. But apparently he said, quote, yes, your honor, donald j. Trump, john. She asked how old he is, he says 77. She also is asking now have you taken any medication or substance within the past 24 hours, he said, quote, no, i have not. He is now being advised of the counts that have been filed against him and the potential penalties. So he right now thats all we have right now. Its going through the usual steps that any defendant would go through in a federal court. Nothing extraordinary so far except the fact that this is, of course, the former leader of the free world. But notable we are hearing from him a little bit here. It was unclear if we were going to hear his voice at all today because his lawyers can answer some of these questions. But he has answered his basic biographical information, and thats the last update we have from our colleagues. Getting these realtime updates, having the opportunity to report from inside the courthouse, that is significant, and that is at least one step toward transparency. Reporter yeah, the munday part of that mundane part of that, the basic things like his name, age, whatnot, obviously this is anything but a mundane situation. I did see one comment that was made that the judge addressed him as mr. Trump. Obviously this is someone who is still addressed by those around him as mr. President , as the president of the United States. This speaks to the moment that hes in. And the judge also is the Magistrate Judge, not the actual judge who is going to be overseeing that case. That is something that is of high interest obviously to trump and his team because of just how she is her kind of situation here, the way she has handled other January 6th Rioters. And the courthouse behind us i think is also notable in and of itself. We know that donald trump is on the second floor now. That is where he is being read his rights. He has been sworn in. This arraignment is now under way on his second set of federal charges. And this is a courthouse, though, where thousands of people who were prosecuted and charged in the January 6th Riot came in through these very hallways. And just the location of it is obviously trump is complaining about the venue and why he thinks he cant get a fair trial. He obviously has seen how many of those convictions have happened and how important it was to the Justice Department. Absolutely. Many people have been sentenced to jail time. And judge chutkin, who will oversee the case, has statistically handed some of the more serious punishments to people. At least nine times shes gone beyond what prosecutors were recommending. Right now the Magistrate Judge, not only is she reading the charges that have been filed against the former president , shes also informing him of the maximum sentence. A reminder that conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding, a maximum of 20 years. Obstruction of an official proceeding, 20 years. Conspiracy against rights, ten years. Now these are, of course, maximums. Its a very complicated formula, as you know, in terms of the ultimate sentence. But it is a reminder of the severity of the charges that he is facing. Now she is informing him that he has, quote, certain rights in connection to this proceeding including the right to remain silent. She said, quote, if you have already made a statement to Law Enforcement about the offense which you have been charged, you dont have to say anything else. Shes informing him of his right to remain silent. He says that he understands that. He also confirms that he has a lawyers, a legal team there. These are all the standard questions that you would go through. What is not standard, though, is of course not only who this is, but also what hes accused of. Dave, what do you make of what youre watching as this is playing out . Theyre Reading Trump his rights. His legal team is there there are basic things that happen, the conditions of release. They talk about hes been attacking the prosecutor in this case saying it was an unfair judge. Is there obviously were having problems, technical problems with our video feed outside the courthouse there. But it is remarkable to hear from our correspondents and sources inside the courtroom of donald trump, the 45th president of the United States, being advised of his rights. Hearing the specific charges that the indictment lays out, and also being told of the maximum penalties for each of those charges. Anderson . Thank you so much. Back with the team here in new york. Karen, it does seem like any other arraignment, and yet of course it is not. The fact that Evan Corcoran is there, hes an integral part, testifying against i guess would testify against the former president in the documents case, no . Yeah. Its Evan Corcoran was one of trumps lawyers who i think was so concerned with what trump was asking him that he took really detailed notes of what trumps facial expressions were telling him to pluck out a document that might be wrong exactly. And showing the gestures he was making regarding the documents. Detailed, detailed notes that its not common for a lawyer to do unless you it think one day does it surprise you that an attorney who did that would be now still representing the former president in this other cases . I dont know if hes there as a lawyer representing him and that hes put in a notice of appearance or if hes just there watching the trial like anybody else. Its unclear. But yes, that would surprise me because if recall, not only is he a witness in the maralago case, a court has found that they were coconspirators as opposed to attorneyclient, which is why all that information was able to be given to jack smiths team because they pierced the attorneyclient privilege under whats known as the crime fraud exception. A judge had already found that it was more likely than not that there was a crime that occurred between the two of them and, therefore, the privilege at least that trump was trying to use him to commit a crime as opposed to use him as a privilege. So it makes no sense to me why hes there, but he apparently is there. Try to get clarification of exactly what his role, if any, is there in the courtroom. I was going to say, the weird thing about kind of trumps orbit, though, is he has these people that are in, and then they get kicked out. Some big, bright fashion. Then theyre kind of back in again. Though ones ever out forever. Right. So if hes there for donald trump, it wouldnt surprise me. It would be like one of these we have a toxic thing, but now youre here. Its the weirdest interaction of a group of people ive ever seen. The former president has pleaded not guilty to the charges that he is facing. No surprise there. Thats the latest. Anderson, the word people keep usings appropriately is mundane. Theres a mundanity to the process. Not used in the pejorative sense, and it is. What were doing in this process, first of all, were starting the Criminal Justice process. Second of all, we are formally honoring the Constitutional Rights that any defendant has. And look, its 2023, we could probably do this by clicking a couple of boxes on the internet. No, the person need to make an appearance in front of a judge. Before covid you had to do it in person, now theres optionality here. Thats because these are sacred rights. Lets be clear about whats at stake for donald trump. This is not going to be a finding, this is not a monetary penalty, this is not going to be a report. If he is convicted he will lose his liberty. He will go behind bars. This is a serious process. The other thing i want to point out is theres a humbling effect naturally to sitting at that defendants table. And for all the bombas that we see in every other arena, now hes got his hands folded, head down. Theres something about the court system that humbles everyone, brings everyone down to an equal plain. I want to quickly check in with paula reid outside the courthouse, getting details from our folks inside the courtroom. Paula, what are you hearing . Reporter an extraordinary moment, anderson. The former president was asked to stand and enter his own plea to the charges that have been filed against him. Im told he didnt even use the microphone. He just looked straight at the judge and projected his voice and entered a plea of not guilty. Now again, the hearing down in florida, when he went through this in a federal courtroom there, he had his lawyer enter that plea. To hear him say that in his own voice is significant. Now the judge is reading the conditions of his release. You may remember that down in florida, in is actually what delayed the hearing. Here shes saying you must not violate state or federal law, and also that he cannot communicate with anyone known to be a witness about the case unless through a lawyer. Now that could get tricky because as we know hes listed sixcoconspirators, many who are still close associates. Much like the maralago documents case, the fact that so many people in this inner circle are caught up in this, that will likely be a difficult issue to navigate. Just looking quickly to see if there are any other significant things from the judge. Shes reminding him that it is a crime to influence a juror or threaten a witness or retaliate against anyone else who provided information or otherwise obstruct justice. Of course he has been charged not only with Obstruction Of Justice but obstructing his own alleged obstruction. So shes going through all of these standard things that you would go through with any defendant. Again, taking on a different significance with a former leader of the free world. We are told, again by our colleague inside, he has agreed to all of these conditions. He has now sat down, and they are bringing the actual paperwork to his attorney. Well check in with you shortly. Listen, did you have any doubt that the former president would show up in person to this . You know, theres this kind of speculation within trumps orbit, those still with him, that multiple indictments is better than one. And they want to try to use this as they can in the pr space to try to boost his reelection. I think because of that he wanted to show up. He wants to be indignant. On the sidelines hes got amplifiers out giving press conferences, you know, talking about things like hunter biden that have nothing to do with this. And hes got folks on capitol hill defending him. Its important to echo something that van said, to the degree i know the former president , this is a sobering moment. There is this moment that is set, and this is happening again, it is out of his hands. Things are out of his control in this moment and as this Legal Process carries out. And i think that we also have to remember this is a man with a lack of selfcontrol. And those words that he was issued by the judge, you know, about what hes able to do, what he can do with witnesses, the jury, and so forth, that i think is when his attorneys start getting nervous because he tends to use his megaphone, say whatever he thinks. We know hes gone after and in some ways i would say intimidated jack smith. Its going to be notable how hhe reacts after he leaves the courtroom if he says on truth social what we expect him to. In this many ways this is a Worst Nightmare and a narcissists dream to be marttered, you know, for his cause, for his people, to have to face the establishment. Im doing this for you, and he goes back and does a rally or something. You know, at some point i would imagine this is not the way that he thought it was going to work out. I think that when you run for office, you know, city council, Class President , you have some idea its going to be a good thing for you. And this is turning out to be something quite different. You know, i think the other thing is that if you listen to the other network that we never mention, its the exact same storyline. Its just flipped. Everybody agrees that its wrong for a president to abuse power to stay in office. I think myself, i look at this, yes, its wrong. Trump abused power to try to stay in office. But theres a reverse mirror world narrative that says, no, its biden abusing his power by sicking the dodge o trump so biden can stay in office. Trump has been masterful at getting half the country now to go along with this delusion that he has that somehow hes the victim here when hes not. Lets check in with Kaitlan Collins outside the courthouse. Reporter obviously were learning more about this. We are told obviously that the judge is doing as we expected here, not seeking any kind of pretrial detention. But paula, as we are learning about whats happening, the judge said shes been she talked to judge chutkin who will be overseeing the case about what the next steps are and what a date could look like. Reporter thats right. This was something we expected could happen. That the judge would back channel and say this is when i would like you to set the next hearing because you have all the parties there. Soy the judge here says the Magistrate Judge says with respect to moving forward, shes consulted with judge chutkin and they have three days that theyve suggested, august 21st, august 22nd, and august 28th, giving specific times. This is so procedural, right. But these little decisions, when they have over time, this adds up. Days turn into weeks. And this could be the difference between whether this gets tried before the election or not. So right now the lawyers are talking. Also they want to have their first hearing. Reporter these three dates, august 23rd is the first debate in milwaukee. The first republican primary debate. Trump has said hes not going to that. The idea that he could be in court again for this case right before all of his opponents are on stage is just notable in and of itself. Reporter it is notable. You make a great point because if you look at the calendar for all the things that a potential republican president ial candidate has to attend, has to do, the deadlines, the events, theres so much overlap with all the other legal issues that he is facing. He has a civil trial scheduled injanuary. Another next march. Its almost impossible to find a big chunk of the calendar where you can try to put a trial or anything that doesnt in any way overlap with some of his activities as the Presumptive Republican nominee. So well see which date they settle on. But this will be the first hearing before the judge overseeing the trial. Its unlikely that the former president will have to attend. He rll probably have the optio. It will be procedural. Bawl scheduling, like we but all about scheduling, like we saw in florida. Here its incredibly significant when so much of the Defense Strategy is delay, delay, delay. Reporter yeah. Well see if the judge goes along about that. I want to bring in evan perez who was just inside the courtroom. Were learning that the judge has agreed with trumps attorneys on august 28th, 2023, at 10 00 a. M. , that is five days after the first Republican Debate is going to happen in milwaukee. We dont expect trump to attend that. Can you tell us what it was like inside the room . Reporter yeah. The former president , this his third time going through an arraignment. His Body Language was absolutely a lot different. He sat with his hands clasped. He appeared displeased about something. There was something that the Pretrial Services official who was in the courtroom handed papers to his attorneys, to the Justice Department attorneys there, tom windham and john lauro, on mr. Trumps side. And then they began discussing whatever it is in perhaps the bail package, thats typically the paperwork that he is handed. And then he is signing it. There was something in that paperwork that appears appeared to displease the former president because he had a couple of seemed to be heated conversation with todd blanch, seated to his right. The former president mostly looked straight ahead. He looked around the room. There were a few times where he and tom windham sorry, he and jack smith looked at each other. It was absolutely more jack smith looking in his direction, but the former president because of the Vantage Point absolutely saw jack smith. There was also a lot different from the one in miami, from the hearing in miami, where they didnt see each other during the entire hearing. One of the things that i think was interesting was the former president you heard him just a few times he said, yes, yes, i do when the judged him if he understood the charges, if he understood his right to remain silent. And of course when he said, he pleaded not guilty, he didnt speak directly into the microphone. He spoke directly ahead. The demeanor of the former president reminded me a lot of during the president ial debates with Hillary Clinton where candidate clinton said something to get under his skin. Thats the look he had on his face quite a few times as he sat there with his attorneys, having some discussions as he waited about 20 minutes for the judge to take her seat in the courtroom. So now we expect obviously, as you have just been talking, that this is a case thats going to start moving a lot more quickly. Absolutely more quickly than the one you saw in miami. Again, a sharp difference. There was a lot of sharp differences between the two proceedings, having been in the one in miami. You could see how this one is going is going to shape up a lot differently. Guys . Reporter and thats so notable, evan. Just fascinating to hear that perspective, what its like to be inside the courtroom where trump and jack smith are in the same room. Paula, they set this date of august 28th, but the judge weighed in on whether or not trump needs to be there and next steps for the prosecutors here. Reporter thats right. Shes saying that the former president may be able to waive his appearance and not have to come back for this next hearing at the end of the month. But it looks like there may be a Rocket Docket here because they have told the government that in the next seven days they need to file a brief and outline how much preparation they need to do for a possible trial. The same question that came up in florida, but this is moving along a lot faster. She wants Defense Attorneys to weigh in, too. And theres a lot that goes into the answer to that question. How much time will it take you to go through discovery, to share it with the defense, but we know the Special Counsel, jack smith, has said he wants a, quote, speedy trial. Now the Defense Attorneys, they are going to want to delay this as long as possible. This is a pretty tight turnaround in terms of wanting to get this answered. In florida it took about a month before they were able to settle on this answer. So this appears to be moving along quickly. This is what we expected from judge chutkin. We expected she was going try to move this along pretty quickly. Reporter what are the options for that given john lauro was saying nine to 12 months to try the case. Is that can they push back on that at all, or is the judge really the ultimate decider . Reporter judge chutkin is going to set the trial date. Shes going to set the schedule. If they believe something infringes on the former president s rights they can try to litigate. That were in this extraordinary situation where hes running for the presidency, but they cant do that for everything. They may not prevail. Again, judgess Scheduling Decisions, little Scheduling Decisions like when is your next hearing and the big ones like where does she find time that extremely crowded political calendar to put a possible trial, i mean these are going to have an enormous impact. Thats one of the primary ways that the judge will influence this trial. Ultimately the evidence will be heard by a jury. We can tell the conversation that judge chutkin has had with this Magistrate Judge, she is keen to move this along quickly. Jake, a quick timeline inside the room where donald trump is now. Indeed. Thank you so much. Lets get reaction. 2000, jamie and andy mccabe, talking about things reported in terms of expectations in the case and trial. And first of all, this comports with some of things that you had been told earlier. This is what i have been told by multiple, very senior former justice sources, but these are people who i would just say are aware of whats going on. And what we were told was when we looked at that indictment, it was a very streamlined indictment. There was a reason that donald trump was the only person named. There was a reason that the charges were the way they were set out, that they want to move this very quickly. That they want to get to trial if at all possible before the election. And that sounds as if this first date of august 28th, at least theyre pushing it forward. And andy mccabe, you were saying that some of the speculation about how long this would take, you dont think its accurate. No. I think its important to remember that the speedy trial right belongs to the defendant, right. And that doesnt mean that the defendant can delay things forever. The government also has an important interest in bringing the trial bringing a case to trial quickly. However, a lot of things are built into how its actually scheduled. And we know from listening to john lauro just the other night, the former president s new attorney, hes speculated in the media that the trial just the trial will take 9 to 12 months. That is an absurd prediction. Ridiculous. You think its use think its going to be much shorter than 9 to 12 months . Certainly. People give birth in nine months. Not a trial two months maybe and george and cara, what weve seen from the Trump Legal Team in this case will be no different is a desire to delay. Yeah. To push this off until after the elections. They hope obviously donald trump will be victorious and then well be able to swat away and dismiss all of these charges. But beyond that, they dont want this trial bringing out evidence in the midst of a political run for office. Right. His ticket to freedom is getting elected president so he can shut this down. Thats the thats his only way out of this box. And so that requires delay. It requires a lot of other things to happen, it requires probably a thirdparty candidate or Something Like that. But thats his play is to string this out to the point to where in his brain he thinks maybe he can win the election and then he can appoint a new Attorney General. In fact, the the office of Legal Counsel of the Justice Department has twice held over the last half century that sitting president s cant be tried, they cant be charged and cant go to jail. So thats his play. And for the nonlawyers watching, correct me if im wrong, but its not just that its he can remain a candidate for president theres no prohibitions even with a conviction. A recent conviction. I think thats importance for people to know. Well, eugene debs ran for president from prison. A whole other story. Theres an inherent tension here. That the Justice Department running its process and as andy was describing earlier, the rights of the defendant are paramount. And this judge that is assigned to the District Court overseeing the trial, she is going to make sure that the defendants rights are protected in this case. And there is a tension between that and the political calendar. Even though as we heard in your interview with john bolton from a political perspective, there is a desire, you can make a It Interest Argument for the trial to move along quickly. The process and discovery and all of the things that go into a normal Criminal Case with serious conspiracy and obstruction charges here needs to have its process. And that may or may not line up with the let me bring in, if i can, the former u. S. Attorney general Alberto Gonzalez who worked under president george w. Bush. General gonzalez, thank you so much for joining us. I just want to get your reaction to what we saw today just big picture. Donald trump arrested, arraigned, going before a judge, a federal courthouse pleading not guilty, the counts being read to him, the maximum sentence for pearl sentence for each one of them. What is your take as a former Attorney General, as a republican, as an american . Were having problems with his audio. We will go back to him as soon as we get that fixed. Laura coates, you were making a point. One of the things to think about is a lot is being made of the fact that there arent other coconspirators listed on the actual indictment or on the actual complaint. But theres always a notion when you have multiple codefendants, theres always the prospect of severance, where you could ultimately try the different defendants separately and not have them on the same thing. Normally you want to have efficiency, you dont want a court or jury to have to hear the same case over and over again because its the expense of resources. Its possible one of the reasons its so streamlined is with the notion to there would be competing interests of the codefendants because they might not be truly aligned. If one wanted to step out and say actually i didnt advise you to do those things and im not going to go Down In Flames for this, that might be part of the reason. We havent seen who the coconspirators are from our indictment, not the reporting, they may be anticipating se severrance. Your response, sir, to what the nation witnessed today . Well, i think there is something that were still having problems. I do not okay. I dont have his audio. Im sorry, go ahead, sir. Please continue. Okay. I think what we saw today is something that had to happen, frankly. Given what we saw on january 6th. The fact that what we saw that day are scenes that we saw that you would see in a third world country. I think this was important to tell the world, to tell americans that were not a third world country, that we are a nation that believes in the rule of law, and we hold people accountable for their conduct. This was absolutely necessary as far as im concerned. I agree with some of your guests that i think the judge here knows whats at stake. I think the judge understands that their are rights to be protected for the defendant, but that the American Public before theyre asked to vote needs to know the full character of donald trump. And therefore, its one thing its certainly easier to be indicted than it is to be convicted. So i think the judge is going to do everything she can to make sure that this trial occurs and is completed before the election. You im sure have read the indictment. What do you think . Do you think its a strong case in . Well, again, yes, its a strong case. But its one thing to if an indictment issued by The Grand Jury, but of course the question is how much of the evidence and of course theres evidence thats not included in the indictment but how much of the evidence are you going to be able to get in the trial. Of course all of the testimony, all of the evidence is going to be challenged by the defense. And so, you know, its its a very strong case. Its a great story. With you know, i think there is some challenges here for the prosecution and well have to wait and see what happens. You know, its its unprecedented. People have talked about this as momentous, unprecedented. And it certainly is. But from my perspective, what im most worried about is the fact that, gosh, all of the rhetoric thats out there today in my judgment, the attacks against the department of justice, the attacks against the rule of law, i think its very, very dangerous. And im hopeful that we can get our leaders to step up and tell people to calm down, if theyre going to communicate with each other, do it with civility and respect, and try to come to an understanding. The defense has an opportunity to present its side of the story. Jack smith will have an opportunity to present the side of the prosecution. And then well see what happens before a jury of President Trumps peers. And just to be clear, those attacks, the rhetorical attacks, are coming from the defendant, and theyre coming from house repub republicans. Even members of the House Republican leadership. I agree. But listen, i also agree, im hearing more and more from republicans, people that i know well, that i trust, who are questioning some of the decisions by the department of justice in that they really do view some of the decisions as to be favored favoritism toward this administration, and i think thats thats dangerous. You know, obviously whether or not, as john bolton i think rightly put it, the fact that hunter biden might get a Sweetheart Deal doesnt mean that donald trump should get a pass. I think both should be held fully people should have confidence in the decisions at the department of justice that are not biased in any way and that people are held accountable for their conduct. Attorney general alberto gonzales, thank you so much. As we can see, the motorcade containing the 45th president of the United States as he proceeds from the pettyman courthouse in washington, d. C. Back to the president s boeing on the tarmac at Reagan National airport in virginia is proceeding. Kaitlan collins, over to you. Yeah, jake, after that 27minute Proceeding A Ing and guilty plea we are expecting him to go to the airport. We do have kay tlan polantz with us, one of just about 50 reporters in that room as the former president was pleading to that second set of federal charges. Katelyn polantz, what did you see . He spoke in court several times. He was addressed directly by the judge who called him mr. Trump. He was asked to sedate his name. Donald j. Trump. John, that was how he phrased it. And then he had to say his age. He had to say that he had not had any alcohol or medication before this hearing, knew exactly what was going on, that he was aware of what was going on around him. He also was the person who formally entered his pleading when he was told his charges and said do you understand these, what do you plead to these four counts, he said very clearly, very articulated with a pause, not. Guilty. And that was the bulk of this hearing, it was trump being addressed directly. He also was told directly by the judge that he should be able to acknowledge or could he acknowledge that he has a right to remain silent, that he understands that things that he says, especially to Law Enforcement could be held against him in a court of law. He said yes, he understood that. And he also was asked to confirm that he understood it would be a crime to retaliate against any witnesses in this case or even to intimidate some potential jurors. He said he understood that as well. Just hearing trumps voice in that court, it is unmistakably his voice. You could hear it. You could even hear him a little bit even before the proceeding as he was whispering. He was quite animated as we were waiting for the proceeding to start. There were several minutes of wait time before the judge took the bench. Trump was in the room. Jack smith, the special prosecutor, he was also in the room. They had a clear view of one another. And so trump spent a lot of time looking directly at jack smith, then speaking to his attorneys. Jack smith was also quite animated in conversation, appeared to be extremely relaxed, even had his arm up on the bench. He was smiling afterwards as he sat in the Counsel Table in the well. But donald trump was in court. He didnt seem to be in as foul of a mood as he was whenever we witnessed him in court in florida for his previous arraignment. But this really was a somber proceeding where he was asked to be directly engaged with what was going on there, with the charges he faces. Actually, one more thing that i noticed is as hes waiting for the judge there was a large stack of papers sitting in front. He started sort of fiddling with it. He was fidgeting around and then he looked down and was clearly reading what was on the paper and then lifted it up in front of him and i could see it was the indictment itself. Evan said he seemed a bit angry about something he saw on that paper he was referencing todd blanche on there. Whats the biggest headline coming out of this is how very clearly the judge was talking about the speed of what this trial could look like. Shes not the judge who will oversee it but she had consulted with that judge and there was a back and forth with her and trumps attorney over that. What did that look like . Thats right. So that was a back and forth that happened at the end of the hearing and it was a dispute thats going to bubble up a couple times in this case in that there is right now the Justice Department wanting this to be a speedy trial. Theyre ready to hand over evidence to the defense, even evidence theyre not entitled to yet. And the defense, they clearly are saying in court we want this to be a fair and just process. We need to know about the magnitude of evidence. And we want to be able to take our time to prepare ourselves and our client to go to jail. Now, this was not something that was resolved today. They are going to talk about it in this next hearing. It is going to be set before judge tanya chutkan. Shes the one thats ultimately going to be setting a trial date. They have a hearing scheduled before her for the end of august. And at that hearing she is going to want to address setting a trial date. That was made quite clear in court by the Magistrate Judge today, that that date for a trial, we will get it very, very likely by the end of this month. And anderson, thats just 25 days from now, of course. It is a quick timeline. Lets go to kristen holmes, who is in the motorcade that we are seeing some of her shot right now. Kristen, explain where you are. Whats going on . Anderson, yeah, were on the fastest ride to the airport ive ever had. Theyve closed off all the streets. Were in the back of the motorcade. We saw trumps vehicles pull out from the courthouse. He was underground. We were staging out behind him. And we are heading to dca, the airport here, to hear him give remarks. I talked to an adviser who giving remarks but they did say we dont know which trump is going to show up. And that is because at times trump has been defiant when it comes to these arraignments, these indictments. At times hes been angry and frustrated. At times hes ignored it altogether and just focused on the 2024 campaign. They said he was ramped up, which we saw on the plane ride here. He was watching the media coverage, talking to his lawyers. And we saw that because of his tweets on truth social, or his posts on truth social. Kind of snarky, almost making light of the fact that these were indictments. But they say that obviously that could change. And as we heard our colleague evan perez say, he seemed to be almost upset at times during his court appearance. He had his hands together. I think i heard another guest say that he seemed like he might have been humbled. I dont think were going to see a humbled donald trump deliver remarks. Ive been covering him for a long time and thats not one of the personalities that we see. But it will be interesting, will we get a good read on how this went for him and how he feels from seeing these remarks. And kristen, just to be clear, you said hes going to be making remarks where, at the airport before taking off . Yep. We will be getting out of the motorcade as soon as we get there. We believe on deliver remarks and again, anderson, this is very different to what weve seen the last two indictments. Hes had these big parties at bedminster, at maralago with hundreds of guests, biggest fans, where hes delivered, you know, a speech and had guests drinking, hanging out. Thats obviously not what hes doing here all right. Were having problems with kristens audio. Well check back in with her. Joining me now is neal katyal, the former acting u. S. Solicitor general during the obama administration. Hes the host of courtside podcast on substack. Neal, thanks very much for being with us. The judge signaled she wants this trial to move quickly, set the next hearing date for august 28th. Realistically, do you think this trial will commence and be over before election day . I do. I think this trial doesnt have the procedural complexities of Classified Information and the other things that are an issue in the florida stolen documents case. And i do think that this judge was signaling this Magistrate Judge had talked to the presiding judge, chutkan, over this case. And i think all indications are that they wanted to move this thing more quickly. Shes going to hear from Donald Trumps lawyers on the 28th, or i think theres going to be a brief filed even before that. For why there should be some delay. But theres no argument for much delay here. Certainly not something past decide say of this year. Trumps lawyers have been signaling that, well, its been 2 1 2 years that the prosecutions gotten to investigate, so we should get 2 1 2 years also. And the criminal law does not work that way for obvious reasons. Investigations sometimes take time but theres no parallel requirement that the defense gets the same time. So i do think all indications are this thing is going to be tried just as, you know, any other Criminal Case would be tried in the next year. The arguments were hearing from trumps legal team as well as his supporters and backers on capitol hill, essentially they say he has a First Amendment right to say things that are not true, that no one can prove he didnt actually believe the election was stolen and that he was listening to bad advice from his lawyers, advice of counsel. Do they work . Yeah. So far i havent heard a credible story for any of those arguments, anderson. So the First Amendment has been litigated a lot in conspiracy cases. Defendants all the time say it was just speech, all i was doing was speech. And what the courts routinely do is they say if it has some sort of Action Component to it. Like if i order you to murder someone, thats just my speech. But its of course a crime. Its a crime committed through speech. And here the indictment starting at page 2 says look, we are not punishing donald trump for his speech. He can say whatever he wants. Its what he did with that speech, its the commencement of actions, its the fake electors plot, its trying to interfere with the counting of votes on january 6th and the like. Then as for the State Of Mind defense, that trump legitimate will i thought that he won the election, i think there are two big problems with that. One is the factual problem that the indictment really lays out, which is everyone whos anyone told donald trump he lost. That includes the Attorney General at the time, his top lawyer at the white house, the white house counsel, the National Intelligence officials, the Election Security officials, all sorts of people. And indeed donald trump himself according to the indictment believes he lost, that theres lots of indications of that including telling Vice President pence the problem with you is youre too honest. The other is a practical problem. As an attorney if i wanted to put on one of my clients to say i had a reasonable good faith belief in something, i put them on the stand. But you cant if youre an attorney for donald trump risk putting donald trump on the stand. Use have to worry hes going to perjure himself. So there isnt a viable way really to put this defense i think forward. And thats why we see, anderson, a pivot toward new arguments that donald trump is making today about venue, that this trial shouldnt take place in washington, d. C. , it should take place in West Virginia because people politically like him more in West Virginia. That is not a legal argument. That will go nowhere. A version of that argument was tried in the george floyd case in which i was special prosecutor, that you couldnt try it there because the community was biased against the officers, and the courts routinely rejected that. And they will reject it here every day of every week. Do you expect more charges to be added later, as we saw in the classified documents case . I mean, obviously there are six coconspirators cited in this. None of them, as we know, have been charged. Yeah, so theres something called the superseding indictment. And that is what jack smith used in florida. And what that means is its essentially an updated set of charges. And you can have more charges, that is, more crimes. You can also have more people added to it. Jack smith did both last week in florida, signaling hes willing to do that. And i suspect here at least were going to see, anderson, some more defendants in the days to come. That is, this indictment was lean and mean, it just went after one person, donald trump, it was a pareddown indictment. And i think that was done because jack smith wants the timing of this, as you were asking me earlier, to be soon for this trial. And when you have multiple defendants, as we saw in the george floyd case, theres a risk it can slow things down. So smith wants to move quickly in this one particular case. But those six people are named are identified in the indictment as committing very serious crimes. And i suspect that if they dont flip, which means to go and help jack smith build the case against the currently indicted person, donald trump, we will see indictments for those people as well. And then if any of them do flip that will provide new information possibly for new charges against donald trump. And of course jack smith may uncover more evidence of other crimes that donald trump has committed as he continues his investigation and prosecution. Neal, i just wanted to tell our viewers, the former president expected to speak. Were not going to bring you those comments live. Were going to monitor what he says. Anything thats newsworthy we will turn that around and bring it to our viewers. Just finally, neal, if you believe that this will go to trial before the election, looking at the indictment as youve read it now, how strong a case is this against the former president . Incredibly strong. The charges are straightforward. Theyre narrow. But boy, they pack a punch. And the indictments really clean and calculated. And i think almost certain to result in a conviction. Of course donald trump is entitled to the Presumption Of Innocence, anderson, and all the criminal protections that our system gives, which are overwhelming. So jack smith has to prove to a jury of 12 people that donald trump committed these crimes beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the highest standard in our law. It means its more than 50 . Its very high. And hes got to do it for every one of the 12 jurors. If one of those jurors says no, i dont believe trump did it, trump goes free. And yet, having read this indictment and having listened to ive seen no real legal defense. Ive seen a very Strong Political defense, that the biden Justice Department is going after him well, thank you very much. This is a very sad day for we just saw the former president actually being handed an umbrella by his coconspirator, walt nauta, in the documents case, which is just an interesting detail to note. Neal katyal, i appreciate your time today. Thank you so much. Thank you. Back with the panel here in new york. Congressman kinzinger, given all your work on the january 6th committee, all as a i assume a lifelong republican or very longterm republican, what do you make of what weve seen this morning . Or this afternoon. Well, i mean, its first off, im happy that justice is happening. Im sad that my party is where it is now. And i think anybody, whether youre a republican, democrat or something else, should be sad about this because this country needs two strong parties. And what you see is a party that is not worried about constitution, its totally focused on the wishes and the whims of one man. And to me its very sad. Id be frankly just as sad if this was the Democratic Party doing it. I was struck by something as we were sitting here and kind of watching the motorcade go, which is there were a lot of Metro Police Out and i think even some Capitol Police out kind of guarding that area. Those are the people that fought to defend the capitol on january 6th. I mean, the Capitol Police were fighting hard. Metro pd came in at literally exactly the right time to be able to stop, you know, the further violence. And to then watch them because theyre so good and professional and do their jobs, but standing out there kind of making way and guarding the former president , who launched that attack, it goes to show the professionalism but its also the whole irony and the sadness of whats happening. To see walt nauta, we were wondering earlier would he be there today, i mean, its yep. The Strangeness Of Trump World that his coconspirators are around him. Absolutely. And i have to wonder how he could even be staying in the boundaries of what the judge in florida had restricted him to when hes spending all of this time with the man whos still working under him, whose attorneys hes paying for. But going of oof something adam said, i just feel myself coming back to the fact that this is such a significant day. I dont want us to ever take for granted the fact that mike pence did the right thing, democracy hung in the balance, and what if he had not . What if this had gone back to the states . I mean, the indictment reads with one of the attorneys warning there would be violence in every major city. People have fought wars, they have bled in this country for the right to vote, for the right to be represented. And i just dont know that weve thoroughly as a country wrapped our heads around how close it got. And i highlight that because again, he is likely the nominee for the republican party. And theres no promise that if he loses to joe biden he might not try to incite something again. Or of course if he wins what that could look like. The former president did make a Brief Statement before getting on the plane which hes on now. I just want to play you what he said. Well, thank you very much. This is a very sad day for america, and it was also very sad driving through washington, d. C. And seeing the filth and the decay and all of the broken buildings and walls and the graffiti. This is not the place that i left. Its a very sad thing to see it. When you look at whats happening. This is a persecution of a political opponent. This was never supposed to happen in america. This is the persecution of the person thats leading by very, very substantial numbers in the republican primary and leading biden by a lot. So if you cant beat him you persecute him or you prosecute him. We cant let this happen in america. Thank you very much. Do you want these trials we should point out that when the former president left office and left washington, d. C. The city was on lockdown because of the attack on january 6th. That is the city he left behind. Elie . Weve heard this from donald trump every single time. He just used the phrase persecution. He continues to and will continue to attack the prosecutors, Law Enforcement, the judge and anyone else who may hold him accountable. I think its our job to call it out every time, first of all, for being irresponsible, reckless and potentially dang dangerous. Weve seen, adam knows firsthand, that people listen to these words, act on these words. Ultimately, though, there will be accountability. And one of the things about our criminal Justice System, theres a resolution. Theres not many arenas, professions in this world where at the end somebody says you win, you lose. We will have a verdict. We heard the former Acting Solicitor General under president obama, neal katyal, saying he believes this will go to trial before the election and will resolve itself before the election. I dont know about that. Donald trumps team has estimated the trial will take nine months. Thats high. However, ive tried cases nowhere near this level of importance or scope that took four, five months. So lets cut that in half. Lets say four months, five months. I dont know where theres a four or fivemonth gap let me say it differently. There is not a four or fivemonth open gap on the calendar given the way things stand right now. Manhattan, the hush money case, that has march and april. Right after that the maralago case has may. Thatll take into june and july. Theres not a four or fivemonth gap to realistically try this case on either side. However, those trial dates can move. Trial dates move all the time. Jack smith could certainly prioritize which of his cases he wants to put first. Its ultimately up to a judge. Karen, what do you think of the timeline . Yeah, i think the judges are going to talk. Its common for judges to talk and work out scheduled certainly seems like the new york case, alvin bragg would be something that they would put on hold. Again, its up to the judges. But judge marchand is a reasonable judge and im sure if judge chutkan asked judge marchand to go first im sure he would absolutely do that and allow that to occur. Well see what happened on august 28th when they set a timeline and set a trial date, and theyll also set dates for motion practice, which means you have to have all of your defenses and the things you want me to look at, the sufficiency of The Grand Jury, the First Amendment, the venue, all of the things, the advice of counsel, all the things that theyre going to argue about this indictment, the judge will give Donald Trumps lawyers a deadline to have to submit those written motions and then theyll give the prosecution a deadline to submit those motions and a deadline to respond to the motions and then set a hearing date. And that will happen between september, october, november. But by december i think theres no reason this case cant go to trial around the first of the year. Like Somebody Else was saying before, theres no procedural issues involved with classified documents the way there are in the maralago case with top secret clearance and all of that. I think that jack smith will turn all the discovery over. Theyll highlight for them this is we have this much evidence but these are the important parts, look here and were ready to go. It seems that jack smiths team is ready to hand over an awful lot of evidence and documents that they have to the defense. Yeah, again, in the maralago case a lot of those documents havent been turned over because theyre classified. And so until the lawyers get top secret security clearance, and thats a whole application and interview process, they cant even turn over some of the discovery in the maralago case. This case doesnt have those issues. So everything can be turned over right away. And the attorneys have plenty of time to prepare between now and whatever date they set. I would expect early next year, january, february. How do you know how long a trial once it begins will last . Theres no science to it. The judge will ask how long will it take to put in your case, prosecution, defense how long do you have to put in your case . But judges have a lot of say over this. Ive seen judges who are determined were going to get this thing tried, i no he Everyone Wants all the time in the world, were going to get this thing tried in two months, three months. Its a pushpull between the defense and the prosecution. And the judge, though, ultimately does have some influence, a lot of influence over that as well. Look, this is going to be so crucial when it comes to the issue of timing. Do we get a verdict before an election . Will that change anything politically . You all are the political experts. I dont know. Will a guilty verdict change anything . Certainly i gree that a not guilty verdict or a hung jury will change things quite i bit. But assuming Team Trump Just based on what were hearing is going to utilize every delay taikt they have from venue change and so on, what are you able to make any kind of estimation of how long this could end up going . All i know is this is just bizarre, man. Were talking about an Election Year where we cant talk about election stuff. The credit, the countrys been downgraded, cant talk about that. The countrys on fire, weird weather, cant talk about that. Ufos. Cant talk about that. Theres 300 Lilliputians Running against trump in this primary. None of them are on the air today talking about anything they care about because this strategy is working. Like trump is the only person getting any oxygen even in a year like this. Got to go back to jake. Thanks so much, anderson. In the back of the courtroom today we learned that there were some judges watching. We also know that some of the Police Officers who defended the capitol against that january 6th Mob Incited By donald trump were also inside the courtroom watching donald trump be arraigned. Were joined now by two of them, former u. S. Capitol Police Sergeant Aquilino Gonell and Capitol Police officer harry dunn. Both of them are familiar faces at this point to our audience. And in fact i would think to the American People. They were the first to testify along with two other colleagues including mike fanone before the january 6th committee. Thanks so much for joining us, gentlemen. Appreciate it. Officer dunn, let me start with you. What did you see in the courtroom today . What did you make of the significance of seeing donald trump be charged over his relationship to those who tried to overturn the election and his role in leading that effort . Well, thanks. Good talking with you, jake. It was what i expected. I didnt expect a guilty verdict. I didnt expect to find out any facts of the case or anything like that. So i went in there with pretty low expectations. But it was what i what normal people go through when theyre facing accountability and justice. Those are the steps that are required, whether its the president , whether its a guy who works at walmart. It doesnt matter. Anybody commits any crime, they need to be treated fairly. And it was great to see that the former president is being treated like any other american. Equal justice under the law. Indeed. And former Capitol Police sergeant gonell, because of what happened on january 6th you had to end your career as a Police Officer earlier than you wanted. You still have injuries from that day, maybe even some other things you have to deal with. What was your reaction . Thanks for having me. And yes, because of the injuries i sustained i made some recovery to the best i could. However, seeing the former president being arraigned today is a good start. Its the beginning of a long process where everyone should be aware that the Law Of The Land applies to everybody, the rule of law is applied to everyone. And i hope The Other Side, especially the republican side, they see that the allegations are serious and that these allegations should be taken into consideration to prevent anybody else from doing the same thing. And i hope that mr. Trump gets a fair trial. However, its good to see him being held accountable for it. And officer dunn, its obviously interesting that this is all taking place in the same courthouse and i believe even in the same courtroom in some cases as the hundreds of other January 6th Rioters and defendants, hundreds of whom have been facing serious criminal penalties as a result for their actions on january 6th. What do you make of that . Its the same judge for some of them. Its the same courtroom for some of them. Ironic, isnt it . You just think about it, like that is one of the remarkable things about it, is hes being treated just like anybody else and i guess thats the way it should be. Thats a good sign. A lot of people are upset about it on The Other Side but are they really for fairness and equal treatment under the law . Its good to see that. That was a good sign. Former seeant gonell, heres something you said ouidthe courthouse. Quote, our democracy is worth fighting for. Not prosecuting is far riskier than having no consequences for the alleged power grab attempts. Explain what you mean and why you think its important to get that statement out there. Well, given the fact that myself and my colleagues, we risked our lives defending the capitol and everybody inside, regardless of their political affiliation. Many times we hear from the republican side that they support the Police Officers and Law Enforcement officer in terms of backing the blue. Yeah, they had the perfect opportunity to shy away from the former president , to condone him and pose his political life away from any liability vitality. And yet they chose to embrace him. They chose to endorse him. They chose to go along with all this nonsense that those people were peaceful protests and including defending some of the rioters, to call them Political Prisoners or political discourse. In terms of what i meant by that, many people argue that he should not be prosecuted for the things hes alleged to have done. But i counter that with what if joe biden and Kamala Harris decide to do the same thing that he did, would they be okay with that . And not prosecuting him would lead to Somebody Else doing the same thing either next year or beyond in the future. What we did, my colleagues and i, we protected the capitol and Everybody Else who was in there. No matter who they were. And thats what i meant by that statement. And we thank you and salute you for holding the line that day. Former u. S. Capitol Police Sergeant Aquilino Gonell and current officer harry dunn, thanks to both of you. Coming up next were going to talk to a key adviser to former Vice President mike pence, one who spoke with Special Counsel jack smith in the investigation into trumps attempts to overturn the election. Our live coverage continues right after this quick break. vo Verizon Small Business days are coming. From august 7th to the 13th. Now is t time to partner with our experts. Get arted today with Verizon Business its your business. Its your verizon. The first time you connected your Godaddy Website and your store was also the first time you realized. Well, we can do anything. Cheesecake cookies . The chookie manage all your sales from one place with a partner that always puts you first. we did it start today at godaddy. Com think hairsprays stuck in one dimension . Think again. Flex any style. With hairspray that flexes with you. New tresemme hairspray. Trump is in that plane you see right there, his boeing 757. Hes about to fly back to new jersey. He was released from custody after his arrest and arraignment in d. C. Federal court here in washington, d. C. Trump pleaded not guilty to the four criminal charges he faces, all of them related to the january 6th attack and various other efforts to subvert the decision of the American People in the 2020 president ial election when they voted in a free and Fair Election for the current president , joe biden. The next hearing in the case is scheduled for august 28th. We are told that the judge intends to set a trial date then. Were joined now to discuss with the former Chief Of Staff to Vice President mike pence, marc short. Marc, good to see you. You testified in front of The Grand Jury. What is your reaction as a form er member of the trump administration, as a republican, as an american to seeing donald trump arrested and arraigned today for his attempts to overturn the election . Well, jake, thanks for having me. I think january 6th was a tragic day for our country, and i think today is an incredibly sad day. I dont think any of us would cherish seeing a president indicted and arraigned. And you know, i think that the events of january 6th, im not i dont know to what extent theres evidence for criminality but i do think that donald trump was wrong. He was foundationally wrong about suggesting that the Vice President should throw out his oath to the constitution, and i think that as well the president clearly was derelict in his duty on that day and the days leading up to it. Your former boss, the former Vice President mike pence, he fought having to testify but ultimately he did. He is repeatedly cited in the indictment. Would he testify at trial if called to do so . I think that the Vice President has always complied with the law and i think he would in that case. I think hypothetically dont know if well get to that point yet, jake, but i think even in the first case he did Fight Grounds On Separation Of Powers and i think he won a round in that but ultimately where there was parts that he was compelled to testify he complied with that subpoena. Obviously the Vice President took a lot of contemporaneous notes. He used them when he wrote his memoir that came out last year. They also play a role in this indictment. Were you and was the Vice President , mr. Pence, were you expecting his testimony to play as important a role as it did in the indictment . You know, i think obviously he was a central figure in this. So i think we expected it. To what extent i wouldnt know. I think the role of Vice President of the United States contains a lot of heavy responsibilities from National Security to domestic policy to managing a covid task force. So he did take contemporaneous notes. But as you say i think most of that was already reflected in his book. I dont think there was that much new. But i do think whats different is at this point i think the prosecution probably has testimony from people around the president himself from the campaign who testified that there was not evidence of fraud that would have had a material difference to the election result. Or theyve had people testify from the White House Counsels Office who said the Vice President has no such magical authority to overturn the election, nor would we want Kamala Harris to have that authority in 2024. And you know, i think one name thats obviously not in the indictment is mark meadows, who was kind of the ring leader of all of this and i think presumably theres a lot of testimony from him as well. So i think a lot of those things are probably in the prosecutions hands as well. So you think, you dont know for a fact but you think that mark meadows cooperated and did testify . Well, i dont know. I dont know, jake. But i would imagine that certainly if you look at the list of coconspirators, you know, mark was the ringleader bringing in the various lawyers in who had random theories about what the Vice President could do, organized most of those meetings, organized the meetings with members of congress, and so was a leader in much of those efforts that the president pursued in trying to convince the Vice President of this magical authority. So the fact that hes not mentioned i think would lead one to say, well, in light of so many of the other coconspirators there must be some level of testimony that they have from mark. One of the interesting pieces of evidence in the indictment is donald trump telling your former boss, or your boss, Vice President pence, that hes too honest when he is refusing to go along with this scheme to send the results back to the states and overturn the election and subvert the will of the American People. Too honest i saw on social media today that the Vice President s campaign for president is using that in some campaign swag, too honest on a shirt, too honest on a mug. Do you think, beyond being a clever swag, kudos on that, but do you think that that proves that donald trump knew that it was all a lie . I dont know if it proves that, jake. As i said from the start, i dont know the evidence of criminality here. But i do know that the president was wrong in pursuing this legal notion. I do know he was wrong in trying to pressure the viefrpt to do something beyond his Constitutional Authority that had been explained to the president. The extent to which, again, he had been informed of his defeat or the failure of the legal efforts, i think theres campaign testimony to that effect and i think they probably have better evidence of what the president s State Of Mind was to that. It would be wrong for me to try to have that conjecture. But i think the evidence will certainly stack up to suggest that he was at least informed of that. What do you think too honest means, though . Well, i think that i think that as i interpreted it in the moment, it was that the former Vice President was saying this is what my constitutional limitations are and thats what im going to pursue. I think theres some of this notion out there youre hearing from the president s defense counsel that they just wanted the Vice President to return it to the states, which of course the Vice President has no such authority to do and nor has any Vice President over the years. But i think its important, jake, to know that the request was for the Vice President to simply unilaterally dismiss the electors. And the prosecution has notes from the president s senior advisers saying look, since pence isnt willing to go along with that perhaps we could pivot to this other plan. Oh, okay. And that plan was pushed in the last 36 hours. But even that obviously was unconstitutional and no one would say Kamala Harris should have that ability to choose which republican states you send back to states in 2024. Im sure al gore would have liked to have had that power back in january 2001. Marc short, good to see you. Thank you so much. Donald trump is on his way back to his bedminster, new Jersey Golf Club after pleading not guilty to a criminal indictment for the third time in just four months. Coming up next democratic congressman jamie raskin of maryland, the lead impeachment manager in trumps second trial just after the january 6th attack, will join to discuss the charges against donald trump. Stay with us. From pep in their step to shine in their coats, when people switch their dogs food to the farmers dog, the effects can seem like magic. But theres no magic involved. dog bark its just smarter, healier pet food. Its amazing what real food can do. The chase ink business premier card is made for people like sam, who make everyday products, designed smarter. Like a smart coffee grinder, that orders fresh beans for you. Oh, genius for more breakthroughs like that i need a breakthrough card. Like ours with 2. 5 cash back on purchases of 5,000 or more. Plus unlimited 2 cash back on all other purchases. 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He actually sat just about 15 feet away from him in this moment, a climactic moment of course in this investigation of january 6 and the efforts to overturn the 2020 election. Someone who knows that very well, of course, is a former member of the january 6th committee, democratic congressman jamie raskin, who joins me now. Congressman, thank you for being here. I mean, to see trump in court today issuing that not guilty plea, as somebody who worked on the january 6th congressional committee, whats that moment like for you . Well, it feels like a great vindication of the rule of law and american democracy for me. You know, for more than two years people have been asking me wherever i go will there really be legal consequences . Is he going to be able to escape this like Everything Else . And its good to know that, you know, the wheels of justice turn slowly but they turn. And the department of justice with The Grand Jury rendered an indictment. Of course donald trump is entitled to every Presumption Of Innocence and all the due process of law that he has wanted to deny to other people who he considers his adversaries. But the beauty of our system of justice is that everybodys entitled to that. And hes got a judge whos a former public defender, a former criminal defense lawyer, whos extremely attuned to the rights of defendants. Yeah, and they made it pretty clear from the Magistrate Judge who had talked to that judge, judge chutkan thats going to be overseeing this, about how quickly this trial is going to move. Are you more hopeful after hearing that back and forth between trump attorney john lauro and the Magistrate Judge, that this could potentially happen relatively soon, before the 2024 election at least . Well, i think the fact that Donald Trumps coconspirators are unindicted at this point make it far more likely that the trial will move quickly and that the you know, the constitutional guarantee of a speedy trial with due process will be observed. So i think weve got a good chance of seeing that. I think the facts are known. And you know, i dont know exactly what Donald Trumps defense would be, whether its an alibi defense that he really wasnt there or that he was misunderstood in the things he was doing and the things he was saying or whether, you know, he is going to maintain the pretense and fiction which he was perfectly well aware of that he had actually won the election, well see if he goes that route or if he, you know, tries to deal with this as a constitutional matter and claim that all he was doing was engaging in free speech, which of course is phony. The First Amendment does not give you the right to try to overthrow the government, to engage in an insurrection, to obstruct a federal proceeding or to defraud the American People out of an election. We know what his at least public response is going to be here. His Public Defense is he was just leaving the courthouse and getting on his plane at Reagan National, he said that this is a political persecution. Given youre someone who spoke to witnesses here, youve looked inside the fake electors scheme which is part of obviously what led to this indictment. What do you say back to that . Well, if its political, its coming from republicans because the overwhelming number of witnesses that we heard from on the january 6th select committee were republicans in the trump administration, or in the trump family. Those were the people who were closest to the criminal events that took place. And they saw exactly what donald trump was doing. And the activities that he was engaged in. But in any event, thats a transparent attempt by the former president to denigrate and to run into the ground the american system of justice. I mean, the reason that we have faith in it is precisely because we dont believe in just trump judges or republican judges or democrat judges, the kinds of things that donald trump talks about. It really comes down to him, in his case to people who will do his will no matter what and then people who actually stand up for the rule of law and for our system of justice in our constitution. He obviously has an autocratic dictatorial frame of mind, which is totally opposed to legalism in the american system of justice. Well see what that defense looks like. Congressman jamie raskin, thanks for joining us during our special coverage. You bet. And right now we havehe first court sketch of Donald Trumps arraignment that haened. Obviously, there were only cameras in there. Roo this is the moment when he felonies in the january 6th investigatiointo his effortto overturn the 2020 election. Former president directly addressing the judge as he entered thatin a remarkable moment he. Donald trump remains the dominant frontrunner for the republican president ial nomition despite the three indictments, with another on potentially on the way in just a matter of weeks in georgia. Former congressman will hurd, who has now turned to one of trumps 2024 rivals and his fiercest critics will join us next as our live coverage continues right after a quick break. Thats why this qb profers ththe new five meat beast. And this qb profers it. And if we profer it. We know youll profer it too. Are you trying to outspokesperson me . E . Maybe. The allnew tempurpedic breeze makes sleep feel cool. So, no more sweating all night. Or blasting the air conditioning. Because the tempurbreeze feels up to 10 cooler, all night long. For a limited time, save 500 on allnew tempurbreeze mattresses. Mara, are you sure you dont want to go bowling with us tonight . Yeah. No. Theres my little marzipan [ laughs ] oh, my daughter gives the best hugs were just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank americas numberone motorcycle insurer for saving us money. Thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are exactly like me . I know, right . Well, cherish your friends and loved ones. Lets roll, daddio lets boogiewoogie and were getting new reaction to the third arrest and arraignment of the former president of the United States, donald trump. Now the republican frontrunner in the 2024 race for the white house. Joining us now to react to all the news, former congressman from texas and 2024 republican president ial candidate will hurd. Of texas. A former cia officer. Congressman hurd, lets bring up the photo, the courtroom sketch of donald trump. I believe that is the moment that he pleaded not guilty to the four federal charges for which he has been indicted. As a republican, as somebody who both with the cia and congress swore oaths to preserve the constitution, as an american whats your reaction when you look at that image . The fact that a former president is in our nations capitol in front of a judge having to plead in a contest about trying to overturn an election is just outrageous. Im like most americans, im upset, im annoyed, im pissed. Earlier today i was talking with my friends at the bbc, and theyre saying whats going on . The rest of the world is worried about whats happening in america. I also know our adversaries like china and russia are laughing. But heres a great thing, jake. We can do something about this. I dont want the folks that are watching your show to be concerned or scared or upset about the fact that donald trump has a lead right now. These are polls that only sample about 800, 900 people. We have a chance to say enough is enough and defeat him in an election. Only 23 of americans vote in primaries. Im hoping some of that other 77 are watching your show, and if youre sick and tired of whats happening, if youre tired of donald trump, then guess what . We can do something about it. Vote in primaries. We only need 95,000 votes in New Hampshire to beat donald trump. You need a little bit more than that in south carolina. Then you get to california and texas and you can start putting things together. Lets not get afraid about this lead that he has right now. Its only a snapshot in time. And for those of us that are sick and tired and are frustrated and angry that donald trump is running for president in order to stay out of jail, lets do something about it. Its within our hands. Make the commitment today to say hey, im going to register to vote in the primaries, im going to vote in those primaries, and im going to make sure this bum never gets back in office. So many republicans, republican officials, your former colleagues in congress are still defending donald trump today even though as of now hes been charged with 78 felonies, though whos counting. You worked with a lot of these individuals in congress. Help us understand why so many of them are still sticking with him. Well, theyre afraid of donald trump. Theyre afraid of their voters. Theyre afraid of getting criticized on social media. Theyre afraid of getting booed at an event. Theyre afraid. And unfortunately, many of them talk about being constitutional conservatives but theyre not defending the constitution. And thats upsetting. Thats sad. Im sure, you know, adam is going to give you some insights on that and has been giving insights about that tonight. And its a problem. But guess what. We can do something about it. And more americans and heres what ive learned crisscrossing the state. More americans are frustrated with the direction the country is going. More republicans are glad people are speaking up about donald trump. More republicans believe in personal responsibility and service to their country and adhering to the constitution. More people believe that. And thats why im actually hopeful. This is a sad day for america. But i also think this is the moment that america is going to say enough is enough and were going to see this over and were going to see for the next 247 years what weve seen for the last 247 years and thats america uplifting humanity. Well see, i suppose. Republican president ial candidate will hurd. Congressman from texas. Thank you so much, sir. Coming up, more on the arraignment of department of justice, attempting to subvert american democracy. A quick break. Well be right back. please dont go by harry casey, Richard Raymond finch please dont go please dont go please dont go please dont go dont gooo dont go away preorder now and get a free storage upgrade. please dont go the next hearing in the january 6th prosecution of former President Trump is three weeks away after his Historic Court appearance in washington today. In terms of the next court appearance, thats going to be in front of the new judge. Yes, judge chutkan, scheduled for august 28th. Thats going to be crucial. We are going to get a sense of what the timeline will be, and even if the judge does set a trial date, sometimes they will set a trial date upfront, sometimes they wont, we will get the posture here, is this judge pushing both parties or is she more tolerant of delay. First of all, judge chutkan is former defense lawyer. So keep that in mind when you hear these criticismsing her way from donald trump. And from jack smiths perspective, he out to be ready to go. He out to turn over discovery, which is all the documents you have to turn over, between now and august 28th to go in the courtroom and say, we have given them everything we have, so lets get this moving. Seems like he is ready to do that . Yeah. He is also going to be filling out a form for the court that talks about how long does he think this case is going to go. We will get sense, if he thinks its a short trial, long trial. It gives an indication to the court how many days should the court set aside when they are doing their calendar for a trial. We will get a sense of jack smith, if he thinks this is going to be a couple of weeks or months, and when the judge sets a court date, a trial date, for this trial. We should point out, this is not the last time we are going to be seeing the former president likely going to court. Yeah. Another case in in a couple of respects. Yes, it seems certain there will be a fourth indictment within the next couple of weeks coming from the Fulton County District Attorney down in georgia, investigating the effort to steal the election in georgia. They have signaled in a not so subtle manner that will be coming soon. That will add a fourth contender to this logjam for trial space. An interesting point about this is he is going to be running for president again, and kind of when you are at trial, they want you there, you know . If you are the defendant. He is not going to have any time doesnt matter. He flies around in his plane, gives speeches. Thats a significant rdrain on his time. He has a civil case in october here in new york. There is a 250 million civil case that the Attorney General, letitia james, brought against trump and his family, which is starting in a matter of a couple of months. You are acting like thats a distraction from the campaign. This is the campaign. This is the campaign. I mean, for you, i am fighting for you, the establishment is trying to take me out, help me, give me money, believe in my cause. He is turning this case into a cause. The cause of his own cult. And so we oh, you cant this is this is his campaign. He knows that i mean, a former president on trial. Yes. This is unprecedented. This is one of the most important trials reality tv. He is clearly banking on the media strategy and fundraising strategy which have worked in his favor. However, i dont know that we have enough data to say, in fact. That indictments boost his numbers in a big way. We saw initial bumps after the first two indictments. We will see this case litigated. We will see it play out in Public Opinion and its going remind people of what they saw with their own eyes on january 6th. Even if you have gone book to supporting him, like a lot of members of congress who are republicans, folks at home, yeah, i am not loving the state of the country, but trump seemed like things were better, they are going to be reminded of that day. So he cant bank on this helping him. What was so critical is that the january 6th select committee was public and that we all got to watch it and we all got to see it and live it together. Federal courts arent public. Typically, there are no i shouldnt say not public. They are public, but there are no cameras in the courtroom. So we wont be able to see it and live the way we did during those hearings. I think that does a disservice to the voters. I will take it a step further. Even during the hearings, all the media wasnt covering it. Some media was. Some media wasnt. And even today, you see a big split in the coverage. Its we are in a kind of a mirror world. So people are covering this as if it is the persecution of donald trump on you know, there is a fuzzy predator, a mammal that has a tv station named after it. I never say it outloud, dwha that furry predator tv station is. But if you turn you shouldnt they are this is completely its a different planet. Split screen america. The federal courts have to step up. Federal courts dont allow cameras in the courtroom. They can. Should that change . 100 . They have not to get over themselves. If you ask a federal judge why is that the policy, they say, well, decorum, its beneath our dignity. Its 2022. 2023. Are we have to cover with sketch drawings. A wonderful job, but the notion that we have to cover the most important criminal trial with sketch drawings is preposterous. I am not sure how accurate that is. Thats fair. Somewhat glorified. He is a deeply dishonest defendant. If we dont have cameras in the courtrooms, we will hear Donald Trumps interpretation of events. I think its in the public interest. So i want see the cameras in the i agree with you. They need to be careful. I dont want to see them in the Supreme Court because thats already politicized enough as it is. But i think when he goes through this, this is my hope, is when the details of these indictments come out, not just the narrative. Fir narrative is intense. We dont know who is testifying against him. Is mark meadows a cooperating witness . When you have people like the committee where you have actually folks tell us this is a partisan thing, yeah, its only republicans teaching. Kind of is partisan. That might change things a little bit. I will be back at 8 00 p. M. Eastern for a 360 and special coverage of todays historic arraignment. We continue in the situation room with wolf blitzer and erin burnett. This is cnn breaking news. Welcome to our viewers here in the United States and around the world. Im wolf blitzer in washington along with erin burnett in new york. This is a special edition of the situation room. The january 6th inme
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