Transcripts For CNNW The 20240704

For trump, Arraignment Number three is tomorrow. How he is preparing for it the legal fight of his life, and the judge overseeing it has delivered this line, president s are not kings. Plus, could be the most important case in the u. S. History . One of the nations top Election Experts says democracy is on the line in the United States versus donald trump. Im kaitlan collins, and this is the source. Donald trump will be arraigned in less than 24 hours from now, right here in washington, d. C. The first time for crimes he allegedly committed us president against his country. Hes expected to appear in court at 4 pm eastern, in person, we are told, and today, his former Vice President and now 2024 challenger, and a critical witness in this case, had a lot more to say about the january 6th indictment, and his former bosss role. Anyone who puts themselves over the constitution should never be president of the United States. It wasnt just the asked for a pause, the president specifically asked me end his gaggle of Crack Pot Lawyers asked me to literally reject votes, essentially, to overturn the election. And im joined by the former trump Attorney General, bill barr. His first reactions since we have seen these new charges, and thank you for being here, mister Attorney General. Youve read through this indictment. Do you think it is a strong case . Yeah. I think it is a legitimate case, i think unlike the Documents Case. Its going to have issues of proof. It is a more complicated case. I think there are some downsides to it. I think there were reasons not to bring it. I have said before, i am a little concerned about the Slippery Slope of criminalizing legitimate political activity, i am worried about moving in that direction. Im also worried about bringing this case and the divisiveness that it will bring by highlighting the double standard. At the same time, this case is being brought, the department appears to have dropped the ball on the hunter biden investigation. Its going to be very hard to persuade many republicans that this isnt a political. Well talk about the hunter biden investigation. But when you look at the indictment, you think it is something you would have brought . I dont know if i would have improved the indictment, in the sense that i have exercised discretion and not brought attention to the case. I am most concerned about having this case going on during the election, and diverting peoples attention from the issues and election, most are worried about the impact is if there are acquittals during the campaign. As a legal matter, i dont see a problem with the indictment. I think that it is not an abuse. The department of justice is not acting to weaponize the department by proceeding against the president for a conspiracy to subvert the electoral process. Which is what trumps attorneys are saying, and they are saying he is exercising his First Amendment right here. Do you think that is a valid argument, in your view . I dont think thats a valid argument. As the indictment says, they are not attacking his First Amendment right. He could say whatever he wants, he can even lie, he can tell people that the election was stolen when he knew better. That does not protect you from entering into a conspiracy, all conspiracies involve speech. All fraud involves speech. So, you know, free speech doesnt give you the right to engage in a fraudulent conspiracy. The other thing they are arguing, including john lauro, trumps new attorney to me last night, they were asking the former Vice President , mike pence, to pause on the counting of votes. Mike pence pushback on that today, said thats not what they were asking him to do. Lets be clear on this point, it wasnt just that they asked for a pause. The president specifically asked me and his gaggle of crack pot attorneys, they asked me to literally reject votes which would have resulted in the issue being turned over to the house of representatives, and literally chaos would have ensued. How strong of a witness do you think he will be against trump if he is called . Vice president . I think he will be a very strong witness. You know, he has the highest integrity. Hes behaved with dignity and propriety all the way through this. Do you agree they were just asking him to pause the counting of the votes . Theyre asking him to overturn the election . I wasnt around, but from what i read in the indictment, there was a discussion, and the president , himself, stressed he would prefer him just to accept the votes and the panels that were pro trump, that it wasnt a question of just buying time. The other argument we are hearing is about who trump was listening to at this time. Trumps attorney, john lauro, said this of john eastman. Mr. Trump had the advice of counsel, mr. Eastman, who was one of the most respected constitutional scholars in the United States, giving him advice and guidance. He is citing john eastman as this constitutional scholar. We know, in the indictment, trump was ignoring your advice, that of other Senior Justice Department officials, pat cipollone, the white house counsel, Leader Rector of national intelligence. Is it a credible defense to say he was just listening to john eastman . I dont think that dog is going to hunt, as you say. First, as the people who had some knowledge of whether or not there was fraud, everyone was telling him that the election was not stolen by fraud. As to the issue of what he could do legally, at that point, he went through all the lawyers, he wouldnt listen to all the lawyers in the department, in various departments of the white house, that had those responsibilities, or his campaign. He would search for a lawyer who would give him the advice he wanted. Im not sure you would characterize what eastman said as advice. I mean, it would be interesting to see, but i interpreted some of what he was saying as, well, you know, it is unclear here. You can make this argument. Im not saying the courts would accept it, and so forth. You act on that at your own hazard. I dont think this defense of advice of counsel is going to go forward. I think the president would have to get on the stand and subject himself to crossexamination in order to raise that. Youd also have to wave attorneyclient privilege. What would happen if he got on the stand . I think it would not come out well for him. Do you think it would hurt him . Oh, yes. Yes. Why do you think that . Well, because i think you would be subject to very skilled crossexamination, and i doubt he remembers all the different versions of events hes given over the last few years. Do you think he knew that he lost the election . Do i personally believe that . Yeah, at first i wasnt sure, but i have come to believe he knew well he had lost the election. You know, what i think is important is the government has assumed the burden of proving that. The government in their indictment takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he lost the election, and the election was not stolen through fraud. Theyre going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Which is a high bar, of course. A high bar. It leads me to believe that we are only seeing the tip of the iceberg on this. Do you think jack smith has more . Yes, i would believe he has a lot more, and that is one of the things that impressed me about the indictment, it was very spared. There were a lot of things he could have said in there, and i think there is a lot more to come, and i think they have a lot more evidence, about President Trumps State Of Mind. If they do come around to the idea he knew he lost. Why have you come around to that . Number one, comments from people like bannon and stone, before the election, saying he was going to claim it was stolen if he was falling behind on election night. That was the plan of action. I find those statements very troubling, and you see he does that on election night, and then the evidence that has come out since that, you know, press reports, the indictment, and his lack of curiosity as to what the actual facts were. That is my personal opinion, that is my personal opinion, and we will see if the government can prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. You spoke to the january six congressional committee. Have you talked to jack smiths investigators . Im not going to get into that. Im not going to get into that. Okay. You came out on december 1st, you were there on election night. You said the Justice Department had uncovered no voting fraud on a scale of what would have changed the outcome of the election. When you look back on that time period from the election to december 1st, do you ever wish you had come out sooner and spoken up sooner . Not at all. If i had come out and shot from the hip without doing some Due Diligence, and making sure i understood what the claims were, and i knew the facts, and i turned out to be wrong, without doing Due Diligence, i think that would have been a disaster for the country. I had to get did it take you long to do Due Diligence . The allegations kept on changing from day today, and it was frequently specific. A truck driver took so many ballots from here to there you interviewed that truck driver even . I didnt, but the Department Department did yeah. We were chasing down all of these things. I wanted to make sure that the major allegations were looked at, and i had a good sense of what happened. I also wanted to analyze the votes themselves, and see the voting patterns, how they were in those states. Not only did we not find any fraud of that magnitude, but in the states, and when you look at the votes, it was clear to me why he lost. He ran as the weakest person on the republican ticket, like in pennsylvania, he came in 60, 000 votes alone below the republican ticket. He is losing republican votes. He lost at least 75, 000 republican votes in arizona. So, to me, these were the female voters in the suburbs that where republicans. These were the independents in the suburbs that ordinarily vote republican. I dont think there was a mystery as to why he lost. Because it was an area that he was underperforming in . It is Attorney Pretext would take nine months to a year to try this case. Do you think that good, solid defense team could get it done before the 2024 election . I think it depends on the judge. My impression is this judge may want to move it along. So they will have to be ready to try the case, when she is ready to try the case. Do you think the American People wasnt the American Peoples best interest to have this educated before the 2024 election happens, before they cast their ballots . The paramount question has to be fairness to the defendants, the fairness of the process. I think there are arguments to be made both ways, as to whether it should be first, or it should come afterwards. Of course, if he is elected president , that coming afterwards would be meaningless. You believe he tried to, essentially, get rid of it or pardon himself. Do you think this entire indictment for january 6th could have been avoided . Is this something up his own making . You know, i dont think this is an issue of his victimization. I think he brought this on himself. This is one of the reasons i oppose him for the republican nomination, because he has this pension for engaging in these reckless acts that creates these calamitous situations, and undercut the cause he is supposed to be leading. This is a perfect example of it. All right, mister Attorney General, standby. I would ask more questions. I know your thoughts on the Documents Case. There are other indictments. I want to ask you more about that comment you made about opposing him before the 2024 nomination. We will be back. Want to come with the former Attorney General, bill barr, whether or not we will see a fourth indictment following this third indictment. Trumps toast, half of the classified Documents Case allegations are true. What does he think now that more charges have been added since that prediction. Its the only bcell treatment for rms i can take at home once a month. Kesimpta was proven superior at reducing the rate of relapses active lesions and slowing disability progression vs aubagio. Dont take kesimpta if you have hepatitis b and tell your doctor if you have had it, as it could come back. Kesimpta can cause serious side effects, including infections. While no cases of pml were reported in rms clinical trials, it could happen. 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Since we have last spoken on this program, trump is now facing a superseding indictment in the Documents Case, which means more charges have been added. You thought it was a serious case before. Now that these other charges have been added, do you believe it is stronger now . Oh, yeah, it is stronger. The allegation of another kind of coverup, and Obstruction Attempt after getting a subpoena for the surveillance tapes, then entering into a conspiracy to delete the surveillance tapes. That strengthens the governments case. It is also quite typical in the sense, you know. These two individuals know how to carlos. Carlos are dragged into these things. Their lives, turned upside down by trump to pursue this caper of his. He leaves in his wake ruined lives like this, the people who went up to capitol hill, these individuals, many of the people who served him and government, that got sucked into things. He just leaves all this carnage in his wake. Do you think he cares about that . No, he doesnt care about that. Loyalty is a oneway street for him. In many ways, i think these two people down in maralago represent many republicans who feel they have to manned the ramparts and you defend this manner, and go along with him. I think they have to be careful or they are going to end up as part of the carnage in his wake. That is what your message is to those people who feel that loyalty to him . I think we all have primary loyalty to the constitution and the country, not to any particular individual. At some point, trying to defend the indefensible really dumb means you. He says he had a right to declassify the document, or take them with them. If he thought that, why would he ask someone to delete Security Surveillance footage . The whole thing, if he thought he had the right to have that documents, they were umpteen ways for him to assert that when he was asked by the government, during that one and a half year period. He never did. He never asserted it in a lawful way. What did he do . He obstructed the subpoena, and both subpoenas. You have said before, at its core, this is an obstruction case, because you say he gave the documents back. He would have never been indicted. What do you say to republicans, and this includes 2024 gop candidates, who say this is unfair for him to be prosecuted for that, they say its a Process Crime . Its hogwash. A grand jury subpoena asking for the documents, and he makes his lawyer, puts his lawyer in his position, making a false statement that a full search was made, when he knew it wasnt, and prevented the lawyer for making it. That is the essence of obstruction, obstruction of a grand jury. It doesnt get more serious than that. What would you say he brought on to new attorney, todd blanche in april, john lauro just now. Given whats happened with other attorneys hes had, what is your advice to his attorneys . You have any . Get a lot of insurance. They will be spending a lot of times, themselves, at some point, you know, before grand juries, or answering questions, or as witnesses in investigations. He spending a lot of money on legal fees as well. His Political Action committee spent more than 40 million on legal fees already this year. What do you make of his supporters, his political supporters, giving him money to his campaign, and he then uses that for his legal fees and codefendants legal fees . I find that nauseating. This guy claims to be a multibillionaire, and he goes out and raises money from hardworking class, hardworking people, small donors, and tells them this is to defend america, and to take care he didnt provide any significant support during the 2022 elections. A lot of this money seems to be going to his legal fees. You just mentioned earlier you dont believe in the weaponization of the Justice Department. That is something we often hear from members of congress who are loyal to him after he gets indicted in these cases. Does that undermine trust in the department that you used to lead . Does what undermine it . One republicans come out and say its a two tiered Justice System i do think there is a double standard. From who . I think the department tends to go far more aggressively after republicans. Or allegations of republican wrongdoing than democrats. I have seen it myself. I have lived through it. I have seen it. Now, it is not as pervasive as is represented. It is not automatic. I think there are still many, many great prosecutors in the department who can check their politics, and be fair to whoever it is regardless of the politics. I think there is some political actors in the department. Im glad chairman comer is conducting his investigation. Speaking of that, one thing we have heard, you mentioned hunter biden earlier, david weiss, the trumpappointed u. S. Attorney who is handling that investigation, did you consider making him Special Counsel before you left office . Yes, i did consider it. I felt a couple of things. One, i didnt want to set a precedent of setting, on the way out the door, of appointing a Special Counsel to investigate, essentially, the children of the incoming president , and the family of the incoming president. I think that would become and be a bad development. Second, i didnt think there was a basis for me to do it because our department didnt have a conflict of interest. It had to be left up to garland to make that decision, for his department. He had the determine whether he had a conflict and he should bring in a Special Counsel. If i preempted that decision, i thought it would give them the basis for saying this was a political move, and we are going to terminate him. We are going to kick it out, and it would have given them cover, i think, and end the investigation. I believe he would keep the investigation going, and keep weiss in place, and he did. Trump has promised if he gets back into office, he is blatant about this, about using the Justice Department to go after his political opponents. Do you worry he would weaponize it if he was back in office . Absolutely. That is why i think its so ironic, all these people getting huffy about weaponization, which they should, because we cant go titfortat, but trump, as you say, is very clear for about it. There is no question he believes these institutions should be used to go after his enemies. I want to ask you more about that. Do you mind sticking around for a few minutes, if we took a quick break . I dont mind. Okay. We will be back in just a moment with trumps former Attorney General, bill barr. His first interview since the former president was indicted a second time on federal charges, and ahead of his arraignment here in washington tomorrow. 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We were just talking about Special Counsels, and one thing i think is glossed over, because so much is said by trump every day, are his attacks on jack smith. He calls him deranged, he called him a crack head once, implied he had something to do with the cocaine found at the white house once. When you hear those comments he makes about the person who is prosecuting him, what do you think . You know, to me, it is amazing. You read through the indictment, and his behavior in that indictment, and it is nauseating, despicable behavior, whether its criminal or not, someone who engaged in that kind of bullying, a process that is fundamental to our system, and to our ourself government, they shouldnt be anywhere near the oval office. For him to be attacking a prosecutor who is investigating that with all the epithets and so forth, which he has no basis for, as far as i can tell, is ridiculous. He is an aggressive prosecutor. He is the kind of prosecutor, in my view, if he thinks someone has committed a crime, he hones in on it and really goes to try to make that case. Theres no question he is aggressive. I dont think he is a partisan actor, he, personally. You think he has treated trump fairly . I dont know. From what youve observed, i guess . Sure. I dont know him, but i know a lot of republicans who have worked with him over the years and they tell me hes a tough, hard nosed prosecutor, but that hes not a partisan prosecutor. You talked about the allegations that are in here, i mean, the allegations of subverting legitimate american votes, subverting democracy. I mean, trump is still talking about that. If you watch any of his Campaign Speeches or anything, hes even posting today that now that this case is going forward, they will actually see the claims of fraud that hes been making for two and a half years, three years now. Yeah, here we are two and a half years and still, they have not come forward with any evidence. In fact, as the indictment comes forward, you know, you have giuliani saying yeah, we have a lot of theories, but we dont have any evidence. Thats a pretty big admission. No evidence. They wanted to overturn the election and they had no evidence of outcome determining fraud. Can you just walk us through and remind us what it was like when you resigned . I mean, i know there was a meeting when you came out and said there was no evidence of fraud that could change the election. You actually had to go to the white house that day. You told the january Six Committee that you were taken into the oval office study, trump was in there, he said he was so mad, he wouldnt even look at you. Its in the first page of my book, a blow by blow account of that. But yeah, he was berating me on a number of things and i explained the various allegations of fraud that he was making, and why they were bogus. Then he started saying that he was disgusted with the fact i didnt indict comey and others that he wanted to have indicted. And i said look, i know youre disappointed in me and if you want me to resign, im glad to resign. And he hit the table very hard and said, accept it. So i said, fine. And i walked out and he sent two lawyers running after me to bring me back. I didnt go back. I said, we will talk about it in the morning and he said he didnt want me to leave. So but i resigned on December 14th anyway. You recently told nbc news you are asked if you would support trump and you said, you will jump off that bridge when you get to it. Are you ready to jump off that bridge . I will have to wait to see what the situation is and i will pick my poison at that point. So, you werent ready to rule out if hes the nominee saying, you wont vote for him . Im just saying i will pick my poison at that point. I think some people by the way, i also believe that biden is unfit for office and in terms of well, youre a lifelong republican. I dont think thats a surprise that you would say you dont think biden is fit for office. Look, there are democrats that i think are honorable people, whose policies i dont think are extreme and so forth. But i think biden has turned the Keys Of The Kingdom over to the radical progressives and in terms of his personal ethics, i think there are some red flags there is that i think people should be paying attention to. I dont think hes morally superior necessarily to trump. But i dont think people would be surprised to hear you say that you dont think biden should be president. I think people would be surprised that you wont say that about trump, given the personally ive said i dont think he should be here in the oval office and that is why but that you wouldnt vote for him in 2024 . Hes called you a coward, lazy, gutless pig, rhino, hes called to all of these things. Some other ones, go ahead. [laughter] thats just a handful of the ones that i pulled. I mean, what do you say to people who look at what you say about trump, your criticisms of him, you dont think he belongs here in the oval office, but that you dont rule out voting for him in 2024 . Because my view is that i have to wait and see what the entire record is, what comes out, and so forth. But my view is that if you feel that one of two people is going to be president , in other words, there is no third option, one of two people are going to be president , then at that point, you have to, you know, do Soul Searching as to which one you think would be least harm to the country. And thats the analysis that i would do. Would you ever vote for a Third Party Candidate . Thats kind of something floating around. Again, its hypothetical. It depends. I would not throw my vote away on someone who had no chance of winning, just so i could feel morally virtuous and say, well, at least i didnt vote for him. My view is i want to participate. If one of two is going to make it, i want to participate in that decision. If there was a third party that actually had a chance, and they were consistent with my philosophy, or superior to the other two, i would consider them. Trump is surging in the polls. We dont know yet the effect that this indictment or potential trials could have on him, but right now, hes miles ahead of his other challengers. But you served in the bush administration. You served for trump. Your lifelong republican. What does it say about the Republican Party that he is doing so well right now in the polls . Actually, you know, i think a lot of those polls are misleading. I think before the indictment by bragg, he was hemorrhaging support. His numbers were dropping very quickly and desantis was going up very quickly. Then the bragg indictment hit, which was a political hit job, and that seems to have changed the dynamic for a while. But i think that same underlying dynamic is there and i saw a poll today saying that 46 of people who say theyre for trump now are willing to change. So, i think between 40 and 50 of his support are people who right now are saying, yeah, trump, partly because hes under attack, but i think as things go forward, there will be more likely to change. You are speaking out a lot. Not a lot, but you make your decision to come and do interviews, like youre doing this one here tonight. Is that so you are trying to make sure that trump is not the nominee . Yes, yes. Because i think the Republican Party is a great opportunity. When you look at our states like florida, georgia, virginia, we have conservative governors who are winning substantial victories. Broadening the party, bringing people in, and i think that can be done on the National Level by any of our candidates, but trump. Trump has already shown that he cannot forge that kind of decisive victory at the National Level. Hes a three time loser and i think he will clearly lose again on the National Level. Attorney general bill barr, thank you for joining us in studio tonight with all of this insights. Thanks. We will get reaction to that interview and much more as trump is preparing for his next arraignment here in washington tomorrow, next. Struggling with the highs and lows of bipolar 1 . Ask about vraylar. Because you are greater than your bipolar 1, and you can help take control of your symptoms with vraylar. Some medicines only treat the lows or highs. Vraylar treats depressive, acute manic, and mixed episodes of bipolar 1 in adults. Proven, fullspectrum relief for all bipolar 1 symptoms. And in vraylar clinical studies, most saw no substantial impact on weight. 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We asked barr, someone who was obviously the head of the Justice Department when trump was in office, resigned after the 2020 election happened, if he thought that trump really knew that he lost the election. This is what barr said. At first, i wasnt sure, but ive come to believe that he knew well that he had lost the election and now, what i think is important is the government has assumed the burden of proving that. The government, in their indictment, takes the position that he had actual knowledge that he had lost the election and the election was not stolen through fraud. And they are going to have to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt. Evan perez, you covered the Justice Department with bill barr there. I mean, to hear him say that he does now think trump did know that he lost the election, what do you make of that . Look, i think like he said, i think a lot of people who work with the former president , who were there during that period, were really kind of not sure, right . And certainly, i think some people who were involved in some of these discussions, i think believed that the former president would pass a Lie Detector Test because hes that delusional about what happened. But, you know, one of the things i think the former Attorney General is getting at is that the prosecutors have a ton of evidence. There is the things that he mentioned, roger stone, steve bannon, there is a whole idea that theyve concocted this whole plan that if he fell behind, he was going to declare victory and declare, claim fraud. So, there is a ton of circumstantial evidence. People get convicted every day in this country on evidence that, you know, not getting into peoples State Of Mind, not getting into their heads. So, i think hes on to something. And it is a high burden to prove, of course, as barr was saying there. But i mean, trumps mindset and his intent here is the key of this indictment that we got yesterday, carrie. Looking at that and bill barr saying, noticeably not saying anything when i asked him if he had spoken to jack smith. What did you make of that . Yeah, it was very interesting. You asked the question directly. He would not answer. Whether or not he had been interviewed by the Special Counsels team or whether he had testified before the grand jury. Can we just play that moment . Sure. I want for people who may have missed, lets just show that moment before we continue. Have you talked to jack smiths investigators . Im not going to get into that. Im not going to get into that. [laughter] awkward silence. Heres the thing because bill barr was Attorney General until he resigned on December 14th of 2020, which means that he was there for actually a lot of activity leading up to things. And so, leading up to january 6th after the election. And so, he had a lot of information that he, i think, that he would have observed. I think it is most likely that he has spoken to the Special Counsels team and i dont know what our reporting says, but its possible that he testified as well. Let me just say real quick. One reason why bill barr went out publicly and made that statement about that there had been no fraud, no evidence of fraud, is because he saw this coming. He believed that once he left, donald trump was going to pressure the Justice Department and he wanted to make sure that he was on the record publicly. Bill barr doesnt do things like that. He doesnt go out there. You know, he doesnt go out there publicly like that, unless theres a particular reason and he did it because he knew the former president would do that. If i were jack smiths investigators, thats a question i wouldve asked. And then he got out of the administration before things really got close before january six happened. But david urban, you also note the former Attorney General, i mean, you know trump well to, he was blunt in his assessment of trump on the Documents Case, and the fact that his two new codefendants how, he kind of just described it as this path of carnage that has been left behind him. The superseding, so, that superseding indictment kind of got a little bit of press, but i got overwhelmed by this, right . I think thats much more damning, much more problems for republicans. The kind of support, right . When you have, like, the emoji in there is lots of, like, a lot of smoking guns in that case, the average people, if youre not really paying attention, you can get say, well, thats wrong and that is wrong, and that is wrong, right . You dont have to read the 45 page indictment and be an appellate lawyer to understand what happened in that case, right . So, that, i think, is really, really troubling. But then much more as the Attorney General pointed out. Carrie, i want you to weigh in for that moment because it was, you know, 40 minutes ago that he made that comment. This is what bill barr said. It just leaves all this carnage in his wake. Do you think he cares about that . No, he doesnt care about that. Loyalty is a oneway street for him. And in many ways, you know, i think these two people down in maralago represent any republicans who feel that they have to man the ramparts and defend this guy, no matter what he does, and go along with him. And i think they have to be careful or they are going to end up as part of the carnage in his wake. Yeah, that Michael Cohen agrees with that. There are several people who have been part of the wreckage and the carnage of donald trump over the years that im sure agree with that. And its one of the things, frankly, when looking at that case thats really sad, to see these two individuals who probably didnt realize the weight and depth of what they were getting themselves into while it was happening, but donald trump absolutely knew exactly what he was asking them to do when he was asking them to do it. And i thought it was also interesting, you know, evan, your point about the Attorney General, where he was talking about how he was trying to chase down all of the guy in the truck, the person over here, and it clearly became clear to him, it was completely untrue and to your point, again, knowing trump as he did, he clearly wanted to get out of the way before the other parts of the scheme were unfolding. Caitlin, you asked the Attorney General if he would vote for trump again, right . He said, i will jump off that bridge when we get to it. Its interesting, you kept pushing him on who he might vote for. This is of the republican primary is taking place, no ones talking about any issues in this primary, right . We are going to have a debate on the 23rd, coming up in the republican primary debate, and i wonder if the questions what theyre going to talk about. Theyre going to talk about trump all the time . Thats a problem if you are a republican. Real problem. A remarkable to hear him say about what it means for the party. We had a lot more to talk about, but obviously, that interview it was a good interview. It was headline where the. Thank you very much, all. I will have you all back. My next guest thinks of january six cases the most important in the nations history, laying out the stakes for america, but also for the former president , accused of what he did subverting the election. Rsv can be a dangerous virus. [sneeze]. For those 60 and older. Its not just a cold. And if youre 60 or older. You may be at increased risk of hospitalization. [coughing]. From this highly. 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Remains a thriving democracy after 2024 . Ucla law repressor, director of safeguarding, democracy project, and one of the four most experts on election law in america, rick hassan joins me now. Rick, i mean, this was a fascinating article. Its not a subtle headline that you have there and i think obviously, if you are trying to get peoples attention with your words, and clearly it worked. There have been a lot of monumental cases, but what is it that stands out . Why do you think this is the biggest one in the most important one . Well, if you contrast it with the other cases against trump, the one about hush money, payments, one about the classified documents, neither of those implicate american democracy. The fact is that trump tried to steal the election based on everything we know and hes not been held accountable. He wasnt convicted in the senate or disqualified by the senate from holding office. Hes faced no civil liability. This is really the chance and if this doesnt work, whats going to stop trump from trying to stay in office if hes reelected . Or the next person who wants to try to steal the election . We need to have accountability for what happened in 2020. Yeah, you were essentially noting the other cases saying they matter, but its this case that you believe is more important. The one that gets to the heart of the matter. I mean, youre write, the risks of our system of government not prosecuting President Trump are greater than the risks of prosecuting him. Obviously, thats not what were hearing from his allies, his republican allies. I mean, what do you mean when you write that . Whats your message to those who say its not . Well, i mean, the problem is that what donald trump tried to do is unprecedented in our history. He tried to manipulate the rules that we have for translating the peoples votes into the choice for president. Rules that go through the state, that go through the congress, and he did so knowing that it was all based on a lie, that he had no right to be president. This is the most serious thing politically that someone can do. And if you can get away with this, then, you know, what kind of democracy are we going to have . Democracy means that the winner of the election actually gets to take office. So, this case is about assuring that that continues to happen in the United States. You summed it up well in yo article, everyone should read it. Peter baker of the New York Times ok this 30,000 foot look at this and said, youno ever since john adams, every defeated psint has accepted the verdict of the voters and epped down. Ronald reagan once put it, what we accept is normal in america is nothing less than a miracle. Until mr. Trump came along, is what peter adds there. I mean, when you look at this and the idea of what we have seen, what we see happen in other nations, and the idea that there are a lot of his supporters that wont believe this trial, that wont think its fair. Right, there is going to be some people that no matter what the facts are, not going to believe it. But for the vast majority of americans, they want to hear the facts. People were swayed somewhat by the evidence of the january Six Committee put on. Even more people are going to be paying attention if theres a trial in the middle of a president ial election, where Donald Trumps State Of Mind and the actions he took in state after state to try to overturn the results of the democratic we conducted election are going to literally be put on trial and broadcast for the American People. That, i hope, will convince enough americans that you know, youve got to vote thinking about whether or not we are going to have a future democracy in the United States. We will see if those trials happen before the election. Rick hassan, thank you for joining us tonight. Thank you. Security preparations are underway ahead of that arraignment for trump here in washington tomorrow. Secret Service Scene at the courthouse, a line already outside, is washington ready . We will talk about that next. A sidekick. Walgreens. This is not just a pharmacy. This is living the care in healthcare. Walgreens. Wake up, achievers. Youre making the most of every hour of your life. Except the hours that youre sleeping. So why do we leave so much Untapped Potential on the table . This is a next level bed, for a next level you. My Circadian Rhythm is kicking your Circadian Rhythms butt its not a competition. I know, but im still winning so, it is a competition. Save up to 500 on the new sleep number® smart bed. Plus, free Home Delivery when you add an adjustable base. Shop now only at sleep number®. Martial arts is my passion. I work out whenever i can. 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The coach helps save goals here, because she saved for soccer camp there. Anddd check this out. The manager deposited a check. Magic. And the snack dad . Hes getting paid back. Orange slicesss. Because this team all has chase. Smart bankers. Convenient tools. One bank with the power of both. Chase. Make more of whats yours. Someone like a former president is going to be arraigned tomorrow, taking those precautions, that comes as long forsman officials tell, cnn they are also monitoring for potential, threats, protests and online chatter. I should, note where trump is going to be tomorrow for this arrangement which we are told is going to happen at four pm eastern, is the same courthouse in washington where you have seen so many of the january six defendants prosecuted, of course. Thank you for joining, us cnn prime time with laura coates starts right now. Ow