joe biden putting it all out there today, making a last-ditch push for voting rights but changing his own tune as well, telling the senate it's time to change the filibuster to get some sort of voting protections passed. it is a move against solid gop opposition not to mention two members of his own party. >> today we call on congress to get done what history will judge. pass the freedom to vote act. pass it now. also ahead, the january 6th committee saying it wants information from rudy giuliani at some point as they release more subpoenas today. and was he lying? the australian government looking into whether tennis star novak djokovic lied to enter the country. joining me now, cnn white house correspondent john harwood and congressional correspondent jessica dean. thank you both for joining us this evening. we're going to talk about what the president did today, john. president biden making a major push for these two voting rights bills, comparing this moment to being on the side of dr. king or george wallace, john lewis over bo connor. he's putting it all on the line here. so what happens if this doesn't work? no voting rights, no build back better? >> well, that certainly could be one result, don. both of them are difficult. i think the white house is more confident and democratic leaders in the congress are more confident that they can get something done on build back better than on voting rights because it requires this institutional change in the senate. but this is a consequence of what happens when you have zero margin for error in the senate. you've got 50 senators. you need all of them, and one of them happens to come from a state that donald trump won by 39 percentage points in the last election. the fact that he's -- joe manchin is the problem on both is pretty good evidence for the proposition that it didn't make any difference whether they did voting rights first and build back better second or the other way around. it was going to be difficult either way. the other thing that is an explanation for why they waited to try to do this later rather than earlier is there's no stronger pitch to somebody who is reluctant to change the filibuster than to say to them they are filibustering your bill that you said you could get republicans to sign on to, and you couldn't. well, it looks like that may not be enough, so it's just -- this is what happens when you don't have any room for error in the senate. >> jessica, listen, the president tried, pressured, negotiations, allowing manchin to craft his own bill, but that all failed. so today he turned to shaming senators. how is that all playing out on the hill? >> well, don, we're pretty much right where we've been kind of all along. it's not really moving the needle. the fact remains these bills do not have the votes to pass and that the democrats don't have the support, as john just laid out, to make those rule changes in order to move forward on any of this. so that's kind of the state of play as things are right now. we do know the senate majority leader, chuck schumer, has promised to bring these bills back to the floor for a vote by martin luther king jr. day, and he also wants to bring these rule changes to the floor. but he still won't say exactly what those rule changes might be. and while we did hear from some democratic senators today who had long been holdouts and very hesitant to talk about the filibuster and blowing it up for this, people like jon tester or angus king talked more about that and how they're moving closer to that. there still remains very direct opposition from joe manchin and kyrsten sinema. manchin has said he's potentially open to some rule changes, but what is exactly and how would they move forward? so we just kind of end up right back where the circle began. >> you know, john, president biden linked the whole idea of voting rights to the insurrection. watch this. >> today we come to atlanta, the cradle of civil rights, to make clear what must come after that dreadful day when a dagger was literally held at the throat of american democracy. that's why we're here today, to stand against the forces in america that value power over principle, forces that attempted a coup, a coup against the legally expressed will of the american people by sowing doubt and seeking to steal the 2020 election from the people. they want chaos to reign. we want the people to rule. >> so he is casting the fight for voting rights as a response to january 6th. if you put together the two speeches he's given over just the last week, does this mark a new approach for president biden? i know i asked that the night he gave that speech on january 6th, but what do you think? >> well, i think it is for a couple of reasons. first of all, they are directly linked. the voting rights bill is to stop a set of actions by republicans in states around the country that are direct outgrowth of the effort in 2020 to subvert the will of the people in that presidential election, first with political pressure, then with bogus legal challenges, and finally with physical intimidation of members of congress. it didn't work, and what legislators have been doing in republican states is to try to change the rules so the next time they wanted to subvert the popular will, they could succeed where trump failed. so that is a reason to have a sharp tone on both issues, both for the senators to frame the choice, the john lewis versus bull connor choice that joe biden outlined, and it's the reason for the harsher tone toward trump. the other factor is that we're turning into 2020, and you've got a midterm election. joe biden's numbers are low. the picture for democrats is not looking good at the moment. they've taken a lot of punches, and the only way that they are going to try to get competitive as we move toward november is to punch back and try to create a contrast, not just a portrait of a president and a democratic congress struggling to enact their agenda, but a sharp contrast by those democrats against what republicans would do if they got in power. this is typically how presidents recover. once they get a contrast with the opposing party nominee, joe biden and democratic leaders are going to engender that in 2022 midterms. >> thank you both. i appreciate it. more now on president biden's fight to get the senate to pass important voting rights legislation. cnn's suzanne malveaux got reaction from civil rights leaders. >> reporter: shortly after president biden delivered his voting rights speech, i sat down on the front porch of the home where martin luther king jr. was born. with his son martin iii, his wife andrea, and the president of the national urban league to get their take. your father believed in a fierce urgency of now. do you think the president has been urgent enough in pushing for voting rights? >> what i will say is today the president showed us of his deliberativeness, but we are watching anxiously to see how he goes back to work later this evening and the rest of the week because senator schumer has set the date for the king holiday, and we will not be satisfied, any of us in a number of communities, but until we have the john lewis bill as well as the freedom to vote bill passed. >> reporter: the three were instrumental in bringing biden to atlanta and pushed back on some local civil rights leaders who boycotted the president's event. >> i think some see georgia and atlanta as sort of ground zero because when it comes to the victory of the president having a majority in the senate the last election was here in georgia. >> why shouldn't the president come to the front lines of the battle, not operate simply in the rose garden or in the oval office, to demonstrate and dramatize for the american people? >> reporter: but it was this line from the president that captured their shared frustration. >> i've been having these quiet conversations with members of congress for the last two months. i'm tired of being quiet! >> reporter: the president today said he was tired of being quiet. do any of you share that sentiment, tired of the president being quiet? he spoke today, but he said he was tired of being quiet. >> yeah, he's been quiet, and i'm aware of the fact that he spent many, many months in private consultations, in private persuasion sessions, with members of the united states senate, which clearly were not successful. and so, yes, we're tired of him being quiet as he's tired of being quiet. and it's time to elevate this battle, elevate this fight to what it is. and that is a fight for the future of this nation. >> and when you look at the african american community that largely delivered for this president, the black and brown community, obviously there were others. there were independents. but the black and brown community unanimously delivered for this president. and so obviously people want to see something immediate. they were told that their backs were going to be covered. >> reporter: while the kings had hoped federal voting rights legislation would have been further along by the mlk holiday next week, they're still calling for americans to honor it. >> there's no better way to honor the legacy of martin luther king jr. than to get involved in this movement. >> reporter: 80-year-old civil rights leader reverend jesse jackson, who fought with king for voting rights more than 50 years ago, also attended biden's speech. he believes the battle for the ballot will never end. >> we have an obligation to fight back to save the country. >> reporter: as the slain civil rights leader's 93 birthday approaches this weekend, martin luther king iii reflected on how his father would feel today. your father would have been 93 years old, and in the days ahead, do you think he would have been surprised, discouraged that we are now more than 60 years out from his fight for voting rights, that there is still a fight to be had? >> he never gave in and gave out, but disappointment, yes, he'd be greatly disappointed. and say that america can do -- can, must, and will do better. >> reporter: suzanne malveaux, cnn. >> suzanne, thank you so much. so what is at stake if voting rights legislation dies in the senate, and what will america become? >> do you want to be on the side of dr. king or george wallace? do you want to be on the side of john lewis or bull connor? do you want to be on the side of abraham lincoln or jefferson davis? this is the moment to decide, to defend our elections, to defend our democracy. the reality of living with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's disease... means you might be dealing with a lot of symptoms... which can change your plans at any time gut-focused entyvio is made for you. entyvio is the only medicine just for uc and cd that is gut-focused. entyvio has helped many patients achieve long-term relief and remission. it may help you, too. infusion and serious allergic reactions can happen... during or after treatment. entyvio may increase risk of infection which can be serious. although unlikely, a risk of pml, a rare, serious, potentially fatal brain infection cannot be ruled out. tell your doctor if you have an infection, experience frequent infections, or have flu-like symptoms or sores. liver problems can occur with entyvio. if other treatments haven't worked well enough, ask your doctor about entyvio. find out if entyvioconnect can help... with the cost of treatment, whether you are insured or not. entyvio, made for the gut, made for remission, made for you. finally getting there...is the best! but with febreze freshness in your car... ...driving there is pretty darn good too. enjoy 30 days of freshness with febreze car. ♪ la, la, la, la, la ♪ blendjet's holiday sale is on now for the #1 gift this holiday season, the blendjet 2 portable blender. it packs the power of a big blender on the go, and it crushes right through ice. just drop in your favorite ingredients, even frozen fruit, and make a smoothie any time, anywhere. blendjet cleans itself. just add a drop of soap, water, and blend. recharge quickly with any usb port. order now on blendjet.com and get our best deal ever! i would've called yesterday. but... i could've called yesterday. but... i should've called yesterday, but... would've, could've, should've. we hear that a lot. hi. i'm jonathan, an insurance professional and manager here at colonial penn life insurance company. sometimes, people put off calling about life insurance. before you know it, another year has passed. and when they do call, they say, "i wish i'd called sooner." call right now for free information on the $9.95 plan. are you between age 50 and 85? 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(announcer) call now and you'll also get this free beneficiary planner. tony here, from creditrepair.com. let's talk credit. what are you doing to improve your credit? do i need to improve my credit? well, that depends. do you like saving money? if you had a score of 630, a $300,000 home would cost about this much after a 30-year mortgage. that same loan would instead look like this if your score was just 30 points higher at 660. that's over $60,000 just because of your credit. wow, that's incredible. so don't wait, start working to improve your credit with creditrepair.com. president biden making the case for what's at stake for our democracy if the senate fails to pass voting rights legislation. >> the goal the former president and his allies is to disenfranchise anyone who votes against them. simple as that. the facts won't matter. your vote won't matter. they'll just decide what they want and then do it. that's the kind of power you see in totalitarian states, not in democracies. adversaries and allies alike, they're watching american democracy and seeing whether we can meet this moment. >> i want to turn now to two people who were invited by senate majority leader chuck schumer to talk to democrats today about the urgency of passing voting rights legislation. they're both professors of government at harvard university and the co-authors of the book "how democracies die." gentlemen, thank you. i really appreciate you joining us. i know it's going to be a fascinating conversation because the book is fascinating. daniel, i'm going to start with you. you two literally wrote the book on what is at stake here. if our democracy is in peril, would this voting rights legislation do enough to help save it? >> well, there's certainly a lot to be done. we have -- i think the best way to think about this is there's a set of long-term cures, long-term work needed to repair our democracy. we also face acute emergency, which is in the next two years, we may have elections. by the time we get to 2024, it's possible we'll have a stolen election. we need to immediately address that problem in the short run. it's just a first step, but absolutely critical. >> steven, what do you say to senators who don't seem to understand the urgency of the threat that we're up against now? >> i try to impress upon them the urgency of the threat. we are in really uncharted territory. the united states is the only established western democracy in which one of the major political parties has essentially abandoned democratic rules of the game. you cannot have -- you cannot sustain a democracy if one of two major parties does not accept defeat. we're in a position where one of our parties is threatening the very constitutional order, and so all we can do is impress upon senators that in effect, the house is on fire. and as daniel pointed out, there are emergency measures that we have to take just to ensure that the 2024 election isn't stolen, isn't overturned. >> well, it's interesting that you say that because, you know, i've been saying that on this program for quite some time on this network. and, you know, republicans view that as partisan. i don't think it's partisan. i think one party is acting, you know, in reality. the other one is not. they don't understand the threat to our democracy. am i wrong to say that's not partisan, that's just the reality of -- that's just the truth? >> well, you know, what we -- >> well, certainly -- >> go ahead, daniel. >> yeah. we proposed a set of criteria that -- we're political scientists. we come to this as social scientists, and there are very clear criteria that political scientists agree upon. number one, does a political party accept election defeat? this is an absolute necessary benchmark to be a democratic party. >> mm-hmm. >> criteria number two, does a political party condone, tolerate, encourage violence or not? if a party condones, encourages, or even tolerates violence, this is absolutely violating a basic criteria. third and final criteria is does mainstream party and mainstream politicians associate themselves or distance themselves from anti-democratic extremists? this applies to both parties of the left and parties of the right. these criteria. when we look at the american political scene today, sadly one party fails that test, and the other party doesn't. >> yeah. democratic meaning operating in a democracy, not the big "d" democratic party. steven, if republicans win the house and the senate come november, you have -- do you have any doubt that they will weaponize the filibuster to further consolidate their power? i mean what are the tactics they might use here? >> always hard to predict exactly what tactics they'll use, but the republicans really since the rise of the tea party have been systematically weaponizing political institutions whenever they can. the basic norms of restraint in the exercise of political power that sustained our political system for a good chunk of the 20th century really have flown out the window in the last few decades, and there's no reason at all to expect that this round would be any different. in fact, the radicalization of the republican party has accelerated since trump's departure from office. so, again, we can't predict with any certainty, but i think we should expect some pretty hardball politics from the republicans. >> steven, you know, people like to blame this on donald trump, but as you said, this started, you know, with the tea party and accelerated under donald trump. is this what the republican party -- did donald trump just allow republicans to become what they wanted to become, and that is a sort of autocratic party, a party that wants minority rule? >> it's a good question. i think it's a little bit of both. there's no question that the seeds were already there for trump. i mean, i think you take trump out of the picture, and i don't think the radicalization would have been as acute, as rapid. but there was a lot of extremist raw material for trump to play with. so this is a problem that pre-dates trump, and unfortunately it's a problem that the radicalization of the republican party is something that's going to persist even after trump exits the political stage. he was a catalyst, but he didn't cause this. he's more -- arguably more symptom than cause. >> daniel, you know, trump has effectively been spreading his malignant lies about an election that he won and it was stolen from him. we know that is absolutely not true. every fact and indicator shows that it's not. how can democracy function when everybody doesn't have the same understanding of reality or truth? >> yeah, it's very difficult. very difficult. and especially when it comes to key issues like elections. elections are all about losing, knowing how to lose. elections can't -- democracies can't survive unless people know how to lose elections. if you look at, let's say, the transfer of power that recently took place in germany after angela merkel's many years in office, the losing candidate gave the winning candidate, new chancellor, a fist bump on the floor of parliament. it was a very easy, simple process. that's what's necessary for democracy to survive. and if you're in a situation where one party doesn't accept election results and then they go after the validity of elections, this unleashes a potential spiral and it encourages further attacks on our democracy. so it makes me very nice both how democrats will respond in the future if republicans win fair and square, and it unleashes a kind of escalating spiral. it's really bad news all around. >> we've been talking a lot about republicans, but are democrats doing enough, daniel? >> well, so far i would say democrats are working quite hard. i mean that's essentially what these two bills that are in front of the senate are. they've passed the house. the president says he'll sign them. we have 50 democratic senators who are in favor of these two bills, which would do a lot, not everything, but they would do a lot. clearly the filibuster is the problem. that's the barrier. and so this is the moment of choice and the moment of decision. in the life of all democracies, there's moments of decision where the future is determined. i think amazingly we're in that moment this week and next week. >> so, steven, on the anniversary of january 6th, the january 6th attack, president biden said you can not only love your country when you win. can democracy even function if only one side is willing to play by the rules? look, i am afrd that we have passed the point of no return. >> i don't think we've passed the point of no return. american democracy has a number of things going for it as well we can talk about. but you're right. it's very hard to sustain democracy for very long when one political party is unwilling, as daniel said, to accept defeat. we're at a point right now where, you know, in a democracy, governments may do well. they may do mediocre. they may not do well. they lose popularity, and parties lose elections. and so the democrats are very likely to lose the midterm elections the next midterm election. in a democracy, that's normal. the problem is we as a democracy can't afford for the democrats to lose elections because the opposition party is an anti-democratic force. that puts way too much weight on the democrats' shoulders, right? they're expected to win every election in order to save our democracy. that's a terrible place to zblb be. >> it kind of forces you, it seems, into taking a political side because you're rururung fo democrats to win, but only to save the democracy, not necessarily because you're a democrat or you believe in what the democrats believe in, except for having a democracy and a functioning republic. am i wrong with that? >> well, i would add that we should root for a broader coalition. >> right. >> between democrats and republicans or conservatives of all stripes who believe in the democratic process. >> yeah. >> we're in an emergency situation where there need to be alliances that you've never thought of and never imagined before between progressives and pretty far-right conservatives if they're committed to democratic rules of the game. >> daniel, steven -- >> it's not just about supporting the democrats. it's supporting small "d" democrats from across the spectrum. >> thank you. fascinating conversation. we'll have you back. thank you for the book, and i hope people read it. i hope people are listening to you guys. thank you. >> thanks for having us. so joe biden did win the election. he did, right? 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>> i mean, look, we knew the outcome of this election four days after the election. it was really clear a couple of days after the election what was going to happen. i just find it extraordinary how far the republican party has fallen, that there's a controversy now over an election that wasn't close. i mean north of 300 electoral votes, 8 million popular votes. i mean it would be like nasa suddenly launching into a debate whether or not copernicus got it right and maybe the sun isn't the center of the universe. it's just one of these telling signs of the collapse of the party as a democratic force. >> am i just, you know, reaching here in thinking that there's something larger afoot? do you disagree with that? maybe finally there's someone -- people are getting control of their -- are coming to their senses at least? >> yeah, i think you would be -- >> a little naive, a little pollyanna-ish. >> trump is threatening primaries against these people. you know this. >> he's not up until '26 by the way. >> yeah. incumbent senators don't lose primaries. you can count them on one hand, i think, since world war ii. i just -- you know, i mean, look, these politicians are heir to the greatest generation. people like my dad who fought three years in the south pacific. all they had to do was have their comm shop put out a three-sentence statement congratulating who won the presidential race in america, and they've had difficulty rising to that level. it's not a very demanding task. they're like, you know, fourth or fifth-generation inherited wealth that is just squandering it. this is the greatest legacy in the country, in the history of politics really, history of democracy. and they're just burning it. >> republican senator lisa murkowski sitting down for this long interview with local media today where she spoke about the attack on democracy. here it is. >> the passage of time can kind of soften things, but the facts still remain the facts. there was an effort. there was a concentrated effort, and we're learning more day by day through this commission -- i wish it had been a commission that was wholly sanctioned by the whole congress rather than just a majority of democrats. but we're learning more and more that this was a concerted effort to thwart an election. >> i think i know what your answer is going to be. by the way, murkowski is one of the republican senators who voted to impeach trump after the insurrection. but the timing of this interview is curious. okay. i'll phrase it a different way. are republicans trying to build support to stop trump or no? >> well, look, i think there's two parts of the republican party here, one that realizes that trump could be a very weak candidate in '24. the other is those that are afraid of losing primaries or being challenged by trump. there's no reason to believe that donald trump doesn't lead the republican party now. he's the most popular politician in the republican party. there's no anti-trump republican movement of any statue. it's not growing. republicans showed up in the house when they were honoring 1/6? cheney and her dad. i think if you -- i'm so glad you had those guys on "how democracies die." i give that book out like a watchtower to strangers. one of the points i make, there's sort of a normalization of degradation so that you have the crazies who are too far out there. and then when someone actually says something that, by previous standards, would have been considered inconceivable, it's sort of accepted it's not as bad as those other people. all of this has happened before in other countries that lost their democracy. we have to stop thinking we're unique. >> fareed zakaria had a really great special on last night talking about how democracies die. >> yes. >> i hope it runs again. it's probably on the cnn app. so, stuart, this is a new interview from trump. it's on a conservative outlet, and he's calling politicians who won't say if they've had the booster, quote, gutless and saying that the vaccines have saved tens of millions of lives. it seems luke he's fully embracing the vaccines. why now given that so much of his base is against vaccination? >> well, you know, donald trump loves nothing as much as donald trump. so you actually have this curious moment where donald trump's ego has for once come together with the greater good. he wants to say this works. >> it's like the dog who caught the car? >> exactly. you know, this is the trump vaccine, so of course the trump vaccine works. how could it not work? now, it just so happens that's the right public policy position. so i mean i think it would be great if donald trump was out there calling on every republican to endorse vaccines and boosters. but let's don't forget it was the trump white house that politicized vaccines. they're the ones that went out there and made it a democrat or republican issue. this didn't happen in other countries. >> yeah. >> i mean in israel, the ultra orthodox embraced the vaccine. in canada, it didn't become a conservative/liberal issue. it's one of the great catastrophes in public health history, and that lies solely at the feet of donald trump and his administration. >> he wouldn't even say that he got the vaccine, you know, after getting it, you know. he wouldn't even tell. all right. thank you, sir. appreciate it. i'll see you soon. so he spread election lies. he called for a trial by combat. now the committee investigating january 6th plans to seek information from rudy giuliani. plus star player novak djokovic facing more immigration drama in australia. stay asleep longer, and wake up refreshed. the brand i trust is qunol. blendjet's holiday sale is on now for the #1 gift this holiday season, the blendjet 2 portable blender. it packs the power of a big blender on the go, and it crushes right through ice. just drop in your favorite ingredients, even frozen fruit, and make a smoothie any time, anywhere. blendjet cleans itself. just add a drop of soap, water, and blend. recharge quickly with any usb port. order now on blendjet.com and get our best deal ever! i'm jonathan lawson here to tell you about life insurance through the colonial penn program. if you're age 50 to 85, and looking to buy life insurance on a fixed budget, remember the three ps. what are the three ps? 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you can get whole life insurance with options starting at just $9.95 a month. do i have to answer health questions to get it? there are no health questions. you cannot be turned down for any health reason, past or present. how long does this policy last? our $9.95 plan is permanent protection. can my rate increase later? never. once you're insured, your rate is locked in for life. you can get whole life insurance with options starting at just $9.95 a month. have you thought about life insurance but put it off? don't regret what you didn't do yesterday. call now and feel great about saying yes today. 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