bannon, former bright barr chief and trump aid is a nexus of political nonsense. he thinks he's waging a war on reelites when he's really waging a war on the truth. bannon's popular podcast is a dangerous family land of election lies. but that's not why bannon has been indicted by a grand jury. he's been indicted for ignoring a congressional subpoena, a subpoena in connection to the january 6th investigation. most americans want to get to the bottom of what happened that day but the trump base does not. ergo, bannon flawed the house's attempts to question him, kept on podcasting as the indictment news broke, and now he's well on his way to right wing martyr status. listen to the way fox framed the arrest warrant news friday night -- >> ridiculous indictment against steve bannon because he won't participate in the democrats' january 6th political charade. >> the biden justice department is transforming into our eyes into an armed political instrument whose main job appears to be publishing critics of the democratic party. >> what we're really facing is an attack or assault on all of our basic rights. i call it the insurrection crucifixion. >> the crucifixion, bannon as jesus. there is a religious thread to a lot of this. flims out there saying the country should only have one religion, christianity, but that's a separate story. it's a important to note fox is not treating the bannon indictment like a big news story. they are not booking reporters and legal exports at the courthouse. but when bannon is covereds it's tucker speech, bannon victim, free speech violated, jack booted thugs. and that's on fox news, two systems of justice, they say, one for republicans, the other for democrats. back on fox, sean hannity is explicit about this. >> we actually have a comprehensive list of democrats who also need to be indicted for actual crimes. >> go arrest the people i don't like. this is a sorry state of political media discourse in america. it's where steve bannon thrives, hyper partisanship, heroes versus villains. hyped up what aboutism. listen to the kind of stuff he spews on his talk show. he said we're going to decertify the electors. >> and we're going to continue that. we're going to get to the bottom of 3 november and we're going to decertify the electors and you're going to have a constitutional crisis. but you know what, we're a big and tough country and we can handle that. we'll be able to handle that. we'll get through that. >> he says we're winning. he says we're winning. is that what this is all about? the trump brand was predicated on winning. we'll have so much winning, you'll get bored of winning. then he lost in the biggest way imaginable, he lost more than a year ago. he caused a riot and yet his media marketers like steve bannon can't let it go, can't move on. they can't accept losing. they can't live with the word loser so they pretend to be winners, they put on a performance of winning, that risks and endangers the american democracy. then they'll claim we talk too much about trump and bannon and all of the folks who are ignoring the subpoenas and all of the folks who are trying to cover up what happened january u6th. but they're actually making it a big news story because they're in denial, because they can't accept the l-word, loser. let me bring in two bannon experts now to see if they agree with the l word. abigail tracy, international reporter of "vanity fair" and zachary petrizzo, media reporter with "the daily beast" who listens to bannon's podcast every day. is that right, zach, you listen every day to the war room podcast? >> yes, absolutely, that every day to mike lendale's show. >> what will happen for bannon, based on you listening to the show every day, tell us what's going to happen next in your predictions. >> yes, tough-talking bannon sees himself as a martyr of right wing media and sees this as an opportunity to grow his base. he calls his followers on his daily podcast the war room posse. posse, of course, being a hat tip to those who take the law into their own hands. i think the rhetoric will continue to increase and perhaps he's going to continue to grow his base, which ultimately means more pillows sold through mypillow and a prosperous endeavor for him financially. >> the story line, competing story lines about what's happening with bannon and what will happen next. you think this is an example of one america divided in their information sources and thus their realities? >> i do. sorry, zach, you have to listen to that podcast every day. i don't envy you in that regard. but, yes, absolutely, i think there are two competing narratives here and that's a real problem. there's a divergence here in terms of what people are saying about january 6th, and i think to zach's point, what really happened with this indictment, while it's a huge moment for congressional authority and even the test of executive privilege and executive privilege claims coming up, i do believe this is the first step in actually a new battle. steve bannon has long had a profile, that's long had a platform, and i think much like donald trump, he relishes controversy and criticism and this is really going to give him a new found relevance that i think he's going to be chomping at the bit at. >> and he's not the only media type on the subpoena list. he's the first to be held in contempt. but there's kayleigh mcenany, the fox host, jason miller, newsmax commentator, all of these folks who have media platforms who are being called to tell what they know about the attack january 6th. and what they do, whether they follow bannon, is an interesting story line here. there's also breaking news from abc's jonathan carl, his book "betrayal" comes out tuesday. it's loaded with scoops. one of the scoop is about yet another coup menu. ellis drafted a memo that mark meadows sent to the vp of staff send an argument why mike pence should overturn the election results and basically handed it off to trump and allowed the coup to go forward. so month after month, new books come out, new memos revealed, new proof of the coup plot comes out. does any of it break through anymore? >> great question, yeah. it does and it doesn't. right wing media, for the majority part of it, is really confused right now on messaging. after the win, of course, they're claiming false flags and there's messaging issues. that goes back to january 6th and the way they're packaging that as something that wasn't an insurrection. of course, i was there. there was none of that antifa hats and what right media is pushing now. there were no pro-trump activists that decided to break the law. >>s what the big story here, abigail, if you had zoomed out 30,000 feet. i would have suggested the rights loss of trust in all institutions so when carl tucker attacks the doj or military or individuals overthrowning the judicial results, lost and trust in all institutions. what do you see as the big-picture story about the republicans? >> i absolutely agree with you. i think we're looking at the language used around the indictment of steve bannon. they're trying to frame it as he didn't break the law and the reality is around the event of january 6th, steve bannon was a private citizen and he was issued a congressional subpoena and didn't show up. at the end of the day, he broke the law and that is the law. this framing around the fact it's a witch-hunt or going after enemies of donald trump is really disingenuous and dishonest but also really troubling in terms of institutions we have in this country. i think there has been an absolute erosion of trust on both sides. but an absolute erosion of trust in our institutions and this is a really good example around how narratives and the way in which the media can skew and portray real events. he broke the law at the end of the day and i think that's a really important point to make. >> let's repair institutions, not burn them down. abby, thank you. i want to ask you about mypillow guy mike lan dell's role. and britney is feared. we will analyze the media's role in the spears saga. ♪ you pour your heart into everything you do, which is a lot. so take care of that heart with lipton. because sippin' on unsweetened lipton can help support a healthy heart. lipton. stop chuggin'. start sippin'. kevin! kevin? 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(judith) in this market, you'll find fisher investments is different than other money managers. (other money manager) different how? don't you just ride the wave? (judith) no - we actively manage client portfolios based on our forward-looking views of the market. (other money manager) but you still sell investments that generate high commissions, right? (judith) no, we don't sell commission products. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our client's best interest. (other money manager) so when do you make more money? only when your clients make more money? (judith) yep, we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments we're clearly different. tums vs. mozzarella stick when heartburn hits, fight back fast with tums chewy bites. fast heartburn relief in every bite. crunchy outside, chewy inside. ♪ tums, tums, tums, tums ♪ tums chewy bites what does mike lindeend sele sids pillows? he sells false hope and donald trump is helping him. false hope is a combustal thing. i want to show you what lendl is doing in his far right corner of the web and how it affects everybody else. lindell is a former christian and internet tycoon. he built a fortune and was rewarded with trump access and air time. he even endorsed the pillows. trump was an insider and he loved it. now both men are on the outside, but not for long, lindell claims. with the energy of an officer or preacher, he spouts the law, the country has a real president and the results will be overturned some way, somehow. he says this on lindell's tv, his home for true believers. watch the entrance to his show and notice the reference for hope, that he provides hope. >> this is the lindell report, bringing you news combined with hope by acting profitable and achievable action points to assist you in defending and preservin preserving faith and freedoms. now, here is your host, mike lindell. >> hello, everybody. >> it's like "the daily show," right? but this show is where lindell rails against last year's election and attacks the voting company suing him and claims china rigged everything against trump. he keeps kicking the can down the old road, first suggesting trump will be back in office in may, then august, now november. he claims he's heading to the supreme court with a case they will just have to hear. >> so now it's getting filed a week from tuesday. it's this thick. it's different. it's not what was filed before. >> as you can see there, he's dishing this stuff out at conferences, on livestreams, on webcasts. he even says he's meeting with attorneys general in various states. lindell has an entire universe of this stuff. 24-hour feed on his website, his own version of youtube, and it's all part of this broader far right brand. when other members of the media scrutinize it, he screams. >> the evidence is out! it's going to be too late to close the gate, so all you daily bees, political insiders, politicals, yahoos, rachel maddows and msnbc, all of you, it's over! >> and he reserves his harshest words for fox news, which he said is too afraid to tell the truth about the election. >> fox is the worst media outlet in probably the history of the planet. why don't you help save our country? why don't you talk about the 2020 election and get rid of these machines? your country is gone. your worst than all of the left media put together. shame on fox. >> yet he still buys lots of air time on fox for his pillows. he tried to boycott fox for a while and then came crawling back. this is lindell land, alt right rabbit hole way, way deeper than fox news where election subversion and mypillows are sold hand in hand. diamond and silk have a show his network and they drink out of their trump won coffee mugs while hosting a show. watch. >> use primo code trump one to get up to 66% off your entire purchase. >> because you all know he won. >> even the ads, even the grist reinforces the lie trump is the rightful president. this is the false hope lindell presents. it's a dangerous thing. you can hear it when his fans call in to his show. they call in and sometimes say their devotion to lindell and the big lie has alienated them from friends and family. >> mr. lindell, i'm so -- i'm so happy, so much energy, you give me hope every day. >> mike, you are actually angels in disguise. >> i always get badgered online whenever i bring your name up, people on the liberal side think i'm an idiot, i'm dumb for following you. >> lindell's truth problem is a problem for all of us. while some parts of the gop and gop media have tried to hush the big lie, lindell is louder than ever, and trump is right there with him. as i bury the lead, this week lindell says he's airing a 40-minute interview with the former president. of course, naturally, lindell does a lot of the talking. >> you go back to november 4th, and we all lived this twilight zone, i always say, there was an old saying if a tree falls in the forest and no one heard it, did it really fall, the media tells us there is no forest. >> this stuff is the real twilight zone and it's being endorsed by the former president. so lindell has power, even though he's often this far right loony-tunes land, he has power and he's using it via his livestreams every day. zachary petrizzo is back with me, "daily beast" media reporter. zach, you watched all of these lindell tv shows. you have written about them at your prior job at salon and now you're doing this at "the daily beast." how do you keep your head straight when you're covering right wing radicalization as a reporter? >> great question. for me, i always try to keep perspective on it. we have a delusional pillow salesman and we have a former president, twice impeached president, who is coupe friendly. those two things don't exactly match up super well and this interview coming up on tuesday with him and the former president is quite interesting and i think right wing media kind of has a problem on their hands. as some, like the washington examiner kind of keep an arm's length away from mike lindell and you have the gateway pundit, this con spirittorial far right site really push lindell's theories. >> you're saying he does have amplification even outside his own website, outside of all of those web shows he has people hosting and he does get some pickup, even though outlets like fox are wary of him? >> absolutely, yeah. of course, the gateway pundit will pretty much publish anything that lindell spews because at the end of the day, there's a financial incentive. the gateway pundit and all of these other sites have a mypillow promo code and getting a lot of money, part of this revenue sharing, every time they sell a pillow, they get $30 of it. so it's pretty financially -- there's an incentive there. >> so hold on, is it just a grip, isg adrift, is that all it is? >> to some except it is adrift but lindell is pushing without question. he's really bought into it. i would get calls from mike lindell at 2:00 in the morning before his failed august cyber symposium. so i really do believe he's all in here. it's just a matter of now exactly what happens with this dominion suit and all of these other pieces. >> and he's in line to accede bannon, simultaneouses bannon's podcast. it's this universe that's further right of fox that the rest of us need to be aware of, lest wei all wake up surprised n 2024 when there's an incredible energy behind the big lie campaign. zach, thank you very much for coming on the program. up next -- the story that affects everybody as inflation fears rise. is the news coverage falling short? catherine rampell joins in he for a media critique. and what we can all learn from a local newspaper's story of survival. ♪ fresh flavors... classic dishes... ♪ and a new seat at the table. ♪ with voltaren arthritis pain gel. my husband's got his moves back. an alternative to pills, voltaren is a non-steroidal anti-inflammatory gel for powerful arthritis pain relief. voltaren, the joy of movement. 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(jackie) talk to your doctor about austedo...it's time to treat td. td is not ok. visit askforaustedo.com. ♪ you pour your heart into everything you do, which is a lot. so take care of that heart with lipton. because sippin' on unsweetened lipton can help support a healthy heart. lipton. stop chuggin'. start sippin'. in business, setbacks change everything. so get comcast business internet and add securityedge. it helps keep your network safe by scanning for threats every 10 minutes. and unlike some cybersecurity options, this helps protect every connected device. yours, your employees' and even your customers'. so you can stay ahead. get started with a great offer and ask how you can add comcast business securityedge. plus for a limited time, ask how to get a $500 prepaid card when you upgrade. call today. this morning's front page of "news day" are filled with warnings about the surge and rising prices for cars, gas, et cetera. on daily news it's a fight about who or what is to blame. fox has special logos already made pointing the finger at biden. where can you get the real story? what headlines should you believe or be skeptical about? joining me live, "the washington post" opinion columnist catherine rampell, who is an expert i always call on for these stories. catherine, when we're looking at all of this coverage of inflation, what should we take seriously and what should we take skeptically, that's my question? >> my general view about all of this is the media, republicans and now the white house, are laboring under the collective delusion that the president can do something about prices, that the president controls prices. that is incorrect. yet that is the premise of so much news coverage right now, whether it's fox news or other right wing coverage talking about #bide-inflation or real more objective news organizations asking officials at the white house, why aren't you doing something about inflation? the problem right now is inflation is papal. it's creating a lot of uncertainty and causing a lot of problems for households and businesses. oopts but there's not a tonight president can do about it. he can kind of fiddle around the edges a little bit and the administration has done some of that, appealing tariffs here and there or getting courts to work overtime. there are more things can he do, allow in more immigrants or at the very least process of work visas of immigrants more quickly. but there's no magic leaver he can pull and you would never get that sense from most of the news coverage, i should say. >> what about the lefty fences of biden, what about the actual liberal media that's trying to downplay inflation? that's also a problem. >> yes. i think earlier in this year the reaction on the left was more along the lines of, any concerns about inflation are bad faith, and you shouldn't worry about it and, look, earlier this year it did look like the bout of inflation we were going through would be more of a blip or at least fade more quickly than it has, and it hasn't, partly because the pandemic has been more prolonged in many ways, the delta variant complicated things that made the supply chain problems persist much longer but there was a sort of denialism that inflation wasn't an issue, we shouldn't talk about it, pretend it doesn't exist. now the left has evolved a little more in its talking points. no longer do you see left wing pundits saying inflation doesn't matter or happening, maybe inflation matters but biden will fix it. this is why the biden agenda, build back better reconciliation bill, whatever you want to call it, should be passed. that's also sort of nonsense in the sense that the build back better legislation, the sort of faking it climate bill, probably will not have a huge effect on inflation either way, particularly not in the near term and nor, for that matter, will it increase inflationary pressures a whole lot, particularly in the near term, as the right has been claiming. it's largely irrelevant. we can talk about that bill on its own merits and not try to sort of co-opt it into a broader political fight over inflation. that is what the white house has been trying to do and they've been aided, of course, by a number of left wing pundits. and to some extent, more objective journalists who are somewhat credulously repeating these claims from the white house that build back better will reduce inflationary pressures or reduce inflation for that matter in the near term. >> so seek out reporters, not repeaters, to get stories, not spin on this issue. it's complicated enough without being spun. catherine, thank you so much. >> absolutely, thanks. while on the subject of journalism, an uplifting message from pope francis this weekend. he was speaking honoring two veteran vatican correspondents and he had an inspiring message for the press. he said, quote, your mission is to explain the world, to make it less dark, to make those who live there fear it less and look at others with greater awareness. it is not an easy mission, he says, it is difficult to think, mediate, deepen, stop the collective ideas and study the context. he said the risk is being crushed by the news instead of making sense of it is a challenge. he said, quote, i encourage you to preserve and cultivate that sense of mission, inspiring words from pope francis this weekend about the power of journalism. after the break here, global outrage from press freedom groups after a shameful verdict against an american journalist. 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>> what's been interesting to see in the documentary space is these films are forcing us to take another look at pop culture-related events that may have been distorted by sexism or racism or celebrity or wealth back when they originally happened. and so "the new york times" presents in particularly did an documentary about britney spears that presented the idea that we in the media had treated britney spears unfairly and that had led people to kind of shrug off this conserve vansy she was under that her fans were saying was unfair. they took a harder look at it and unearthed a lot of troubling facts and circumstances around the situation that i think pushed the legal system to take a closer look and fairer look at her situation. >> yes, media pressure contributes to public pressure and then you see where we ended up on friday. so there's a what's next for britney spears? there's also out in the media, what's next for brian williams? that's my segue into his departure from msnbc. he's leaving after 28 years. he said he doesn't want to be up at 11:00 p.m. doing msnbc show anymore. he has other ideas for his future but he's not retiring so he could end up at another network next year. what does it mean for msnbc to have brian williams leading, rachel maddow next year moving to a daily show to a more weekly format, stepping down from her daily show. does msnbc have a talent problem? >> one of the things that struck me is msnbc used to have a pipeline for developing younger stars to come up and take their place as the face of msnbc or as important positions in their programming. rachel maddow subbed for keith olbermann a lot when he was hosting "countdown" and was their biggest star and eventually she got her own show, and when he left, she took over as the biggest star at msnbc. lawrence o'donnell guest hosted at "countdown" and he moved up to get his own show. they haven't really been developing talent like that in recent years and i think it's left them in a position where they don't have any anchor who is sort of a clear successor to brian williams at least. people have been talking a little bit about who might succeed rachel maddow, but they don't really have a great farm team or sense of who is next in line to step up for these big jobs, and i think that might be their biggest challenge right now. >> i think for williams, it's going to be brian williams unplugged, i don't know what or where, but that's what it's going to be. on a somber note, you're mourning a passing of a colleague this weekend, unexpected loss. tell us about her. >> i wanted to offer a brief tribute to npr's books editor patrick mayer, who passed away unskpegtsedly yesterday. she was a champion of culture and literature coverage at npr. we're all shocked and saddened at her sudden passing. a great bright light at our department that has gone out too soon and too unexpectedly. >> major loss for npr and the books world as well. thank you for being on the program. >> thank you. when we come back, a first look at a new report about disinformation and information disorder. i will be joined by rashad robinson, co-chair for the commission on information disorder. that's next. ♪ fresh flavors... classic dishes... ♪ and a new seat at the table. ♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ easy tools on the chase mobile app. simplicity feels good. chase. make more of what's yours. so you have diabetes, here are some easy rules... no sugar. no pizza. no foods you love. stressed? 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(naj) one that we don't take lightly. it's why our fees are structured so we do better when our clients do better. fisher investments is clearly different. now to an "reliable sources" exclusive. a sneak peek by a report from the aspen institute and this group, the commission on information disorder. the commission, including katie couric and chris krebs and, yes, that's prince harry, the duke of s success. they had been working since january on a study of the land scape and now coming out with recommendations. solutions, practical solutions, to try to tamp down the disinformation pollution choking our digital air. i'm joined by a co-chair of the commission, rashad robinson, "color of change." great to see you. >> great to see you as well. >> i think we should define the term information disorder first. it could mean a lot of different things. it might even seen orwellian to some people. what's information disorder? >> information disorder is all of the ways in which incentive structures and information short of travels and creates information that can cause challenges to our health, to our democracy. when false information becomes sort of more prevalent then information that is accurate and fact checked. and we end up in a society where we end up having all sorts of things ensent viezed that put us in harm's way . >> your study refers to bad information and good information. how do you define bad information, who decides? >> well, i think this is very complicated in a country where freedom of speech is so incredibly important. but if you think about sort of the misinformation and disinformation that has traveled around health and covid and all of the ways in which that can sort of be incentivized by corporate actors, can be amplified by people with nefarious sort of intentions, when you think about all of the ways in which big lies have been spread about our democracy, that have moved people to have all sorts of ideas about how our sew site is working. think about what happened january 6th and all of the laws that led to that and the ways of incentive structures within media, the social media platforms have driven that at scale, and information and disinformation have always existed. i think what we're dealing with now is because of technology and prevalence of technology, it is mv moving at a pace like we've never seen before. so much of what we have to do now is really call on leadership across government and private sectors to engage in dealing with this problem because every single aspect of life will continue to be impacted and harmed. >> and that's one of the most important points too on making this report. this report comes out tomorrow, we're just previewing it. you all say it's a leadership problem, it's all about leadership. let's go through some of the resolutions you're providing. first, high-reach content disclosure. that means force facebook and twitter and other companies to reveal when some posts, some made-up bs get spread to millions of people. hike-reach content exposure. tell us about that. >> this really falls into the concept of transparency and lack of transparency we have with these companies that are, in essence, self-regulated companies which means that they're unregulated companies. and as a result when information travels, we hear the world algorithm or we hear it was organic or we hear it just sort of happened and there's not a lot of sort of intel behind what are the incentive structures, what is the hard wiring? what has been manufactured inside of these platforms that allow some content to travel very quickly and other content to not? what allows lies to oftentimes so often spread quicker than the truth, and sort of really understand that and having transparency around that allow us to have better accountability. >> so we know more about what these platforms are doing. here's another one, accountability, promote new norms that create personal and professional consequences within communities and networks for individuals who willfully violate the public trust and use their privilege to harm the public. so who's going to come up with those new norms? >> i think this is why we're calling on leadership across so many different sectors, right. there are absolutely recommendations in this report that call on government, that deal with the business model, the product design, the incentive structures behind the platform. and then there are things we need everyone in society to pay attention to and deal with. so this recommendation really focuses on, for instance, what can corporate advertisers do in terms of withholding their resources? my organization and others were part of one of the largest boycotts of american history and really driving the stop the for-profit campaign on facebook back in 2020. there's also things like medical associations. if there's someone who is a member of a medical association spreading all sorts of misinformation or disinformation, how are we allowing this person to continue to have that accreditation? institutions that provide accreditation, institutions that hold up values and ethics, have to sort of engage withholding accountable their members who are sort of part of spreading information, creating challenges for us being able to have a healthy discourse. >> and you say spreading, that's the key word. you all refer in the report to superspreaders of this this is about intentionality, people trying to trick and deceive. >> what we know from a lot of research that's come out is there's oftentimes a small number of people behind some of the big lies that spread, especially at the very beginning. so really kind of understanding who these super spreaders are and then having deeper level of accountability. if the platforms say they actually want to deal with these problems, then they have all sorts of tools at their disposal, and they need to build new tools at their disposal. for instance, all the ways in which someone can share information across multiple platforms. that could be pulled back from someone if they are deemed a super spreader. they could be removed from the platform. all these things should be on the table in order to sort of not allow these platforms to sort of throw up their hands and say there's nothing we can do when, in fact, they know there are a set number of people behind a lot of the biggest challenges that we see. >> rashad, thank you for the preview. i'll have more about the disorder report in the reliable sources newsletter. up next, another one of the commission's recommendations is about local news. we'll take you to an inspiring family-run newsroom in awah in just a moment. freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? 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