Islamic terror and the war that followed 9 11. Has Osama Bin ladens dream to destroy the myth of American Invince Ce Inl Invincibility come true . Ill talk to Tony Blair and look at the war alongside its closest ally, the United States. Then an exclusive interview with the president of ukraine. In the Oval Office just last week, President Biden assured him that the u. S. Opposes russian aggression. The United States remains firmly committed to Ukraines Sovereignty and territorial integrity. But after what the world witnessed in kabul, is President Zelensky still confident that america will have ukraines back in case of further russian aggression . Ill ask him about that and his role in that scandal that caused Donald Trump to be impeached. But first heres my take. If you want to understand what islamic militancy is really about, pay attention to this statement last week by the taliban spokesman. China is our most important partner and represents a fundamental and extraordinary opportunity for us. Let that sink in and let me remind you that china is credibly accused of massive and pervasive pervasive persecution of muslims, including 24 7 v surveillance, and in some cases sterilization. In other words, the worlds most committed islamic government has said its closest ally will be a nation engaged in what many observers call cultural genocide against its muslims. Lesson the Islamic Militant Movement has always been more about power than about religion. 20 years after 9 11, we are still not clear on how to think about Radical Islam. It is real. It is evil. But it has lost the idealogical argument. The real Clash Of Civilizations was never between the west and islam, it was within the world of islam between the existing regimes and their islamic opposition movements and more broadly between moderates and radical religious groups. Recall that in Osama Bin ladens original thought in 1996, his reason to go for the far enemy, the United States, is because of governments inside Saudi Arabia which were the near enemy and the true focus of bin ladens strategy. The goal was to sweep out dictators which would bring islamic rulers to power which would rule like the days of old. But the dislike of dictators of hussein opposed those regimes. In fact, as they were ruled by unpopular tyrants, what the people really wanted, it turned out, was greater openness, more democracy and an accommodation with modern life, not a rejection of it. We saw this in the massive demonstrations of 2011, the arab spring, which is now ten years old. Weve seen it in the many elections in the muslim world, in iraq, tunisia, turkey, pakistan, Indonesia And Malaysia where even when islamic nations win, its parties within the democratic framework are reasonably moderate and have rarely gone against ishara. A same trend showed a collapse of support of islamic terrorism. He pointed out 20 of jordanian Suicide Attacks were sometimes justified, down from 27 in 2005. In indonesia, 74 agreed that Terrorist Attacks are never justified, up from 41 in 2004. Even in pakistan, nearly 90 opposed any terrorism, up from 43 in 2002. Subsequent pugh surveys have confirmed this broader version to islamic militancy. To give these numbers some context, they noted that 20 of americans believed Bombing And Terror attacks aimed at civilians were only sometimes justified. 40 of americans said these kinds of attacks were never justified. Consider the changing role of Saudi Arabia and other gov states. For decades before 9 11, Saudi Arabia has been the idealogical, political and financial heart of islamic fundamentalism. It had exported money, mosques all across the muslim world all with a view of tyrannical islam. And the Terror Attacks in 2004 and 2005 happened inside Saudi Arabia itself. It started changing course, a process that was described to me as one of the most important, least reported, positive developments in the war on terror. That development has continued. Whatever his other flaws, Saudi Arabias Crown Prince has been even tougher on radical preachers and ideaologists. In 2017 he said in riyadh, we will not waste our lives in extremist ideas. We will destroy them today. In 2001, the arab emirates, along with pakistan and afghanistan, were the only three powers of government to recognize the taliban. Lately they havent recognized taliban but they are getting close with islam countries in the world. They are increasingly embracing openness and diversity. Five years ago the eu created a ministry of tolerance and more than a quarter of that Countrys Cabinet is now female. It is not surprising that the taliban is seeking out china as its most important partner. It certainly will not find many easy allies in the muslim world. Go to cnn. Com fareed for a link to my Washington Post Column this week. And lets get started. This is not a battle between the United States of America And Terrorism but between the free and democratic World And Terr terrorism. We here in Britain Stand Shoulder to shoulder with our american friends in this hour of tragedy. That was Tony Blair, then the british Prime Minister on september 11, 2001. Blair made good on his promise to stand with america, sending his nations men and women into war in both afghanistan and iraq. Tony blair joins me now. Welcome. That day, and the few days after, what was the dominant thing in your mind after that horrible event took place . To keep our people safe. This was an event where just in the recent weeks as people have gone back over it again, theyve seen the footage and some sense of the immensity of the tragedy and the shock, the trauma of it has come across, i think. But for us in positions of leadership, this was obviously a devastating attack and we thought there could be further attacks. We needed to prepare our countries. The world had stopped, effectively. Everything was dominated by this and nothing else. And did it also, do you think, bring to the World Face to face with this phenomenon of Radical Islam that many experts had paid attention to, and there had been Terrorist Attacks before in kenya and tanzania, but this was, it seems to me, the first time the whole world said, oh, god, there is a force out there. What was your thinking about it then . Exactly that. I watched various Terrorist Instants happen over the previous years. You were aware of the fact that Al Qaeda and other groups were operating, but nothing had happened on this scale in this way. This was an attack in New York and america, thousands of people dying. So, yes, of course, this brought it home to everybody that there was this movement there. Now, i think at the time knowledge of it was much more limited, even with the experience we had had. But it was the first time people, certainly in the broader public and in the broader world of politics, realized that this was a threat of a completely different kind with the capability of doing immense damage. Because the point i always make to people is they killed 3,000 people, but if they could have killed 30,000 or 300,000, they would have. So now lets come to the present. Now, 20 years later, what do you think you understand about the sort of fundamental source of this threat, which is this idealogy of radical Militant Islam . My view is that and in our research, they are linked to the idea of islam islamism, which is to turn the religion into a totalitarian sort, and The Roots of It Span back many, many decades. This has been a long time growing. Of course, not all islamists engage in violence. Many islamists condemn violence. But the idealogy is an idealogy based on religious conviction. Its extensive in the sense that it has a global footprint. Its in many different parts of the world. Its grown over a long period of time, and in its most radical form, it espouses this violent riyadhism which justifies the killing of people, muslims who dont agree with them, those of us who live in different systems in pursuit of a cause which is basically to turn society, a country, its economy, its politics into a religious state thats governed by religious laws according to their view of those laws. Now, im just trying to put myself in their shoes or articulate what i think Bin Ladens View was. So youre exactly right, they want the caliphate for muslim countries. Theyre attacking the west because they see the west, at least again bin laden did, as supporting what they saw as insufficiently religious, godless, corrupt regimes. Saudi arabia, egypt, this was the import of the war. Does that make an extinction that they were trying to make caliphates in the western world and it was essentially roadkill . You can look at it like that, but it comes to the same factual act in the end. They want to kill muslims and they want to kill muslims who dont agree with them. The vast majority of muslims who lost their lives were killed by other muslims, and Thats Part of the tragedy. I say to people there is good news in all of this, because there is a real fight back within the muslim world, and one of the lessons ive certainly learned in the last 20 years is this will only be Defeat Ed by N Alliance with those strong voices now within islam who want to retrieve their religion through extremism, and our job should be to help them and to support them and to make it clear that this is not any actions to be taken not directed at islam that had its perversion through islamism. Stay with us next on gps. After 9 11 america went to war for islam to be in power. Of course, they are back in power. We talk about the slamming of the afghan people. I will ask him about that when we come back. Reporter fareeds take brought to you by fisher investments. Join fisherinvestments. Com to find out why people invest with us. So you do it because you have to . naj no, we do it because its the right thing to do. We help clients enjoy a comfortable retirement. other Money Manager sounds like a big responsibility. naj one that we dont take lightly. Its why our fees are structured so we do better when our clients do better. Fisher investments is clearly different. Welcome to allstate. Where you can pay a little less and enjoy the ride a little more. Now, get new lower Auto Rates with allstate. Because better protection costs a whole lot less. Youre in good hands with allstate. Click or call for a lower Auto Rate today. jackie ive made progress with my Mental Health. So when i started having unintentional Body Movements called tardive dyskinesia. I ignored them. But when the twitching and jerking in my face and hands affected my day to day. I finally had to say, its not ok. it was time to talk to my doctor about austedo. She said that austedo helps reduce Td Movements in adults. While i continue with most of my Mental Health medications. Vo Austedo can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntingtons disease. Pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have suicidal thoughts. Common Side Effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. Dont take austedo if you have Liver Problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. Austedo may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, restlessness, movements mimicking parkinsons disease, fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, and sweating. Jackie Talk to your doctor about austedo. Its time to treat td. Td is not ok. Visit askforaustedo. Com. We are back with more gps and more of my conversation with former british Prime Minister Tony Blair. Youve been critical of the decision to leave afghanistan. I think nobody doubts it was done in a fairly tragic and sloppy way. But i want to ask you about the kind of larger the error of the way we got out and could we have held onto the Balgram Base and all that. But the larger error seems to me did we delude ourselves into thinking this was a stable situation . You had afghaafghanistan, ten y of warfare, one big surge. You had the general in the United States saying, guys, there are 300,000 afghan troops. There are actually only half that many. The rest are ghost soldiers. We had a setup where 80 of the government revenues came from a foreign source. The Defense Budget was larger than its gdp. That surely is not the model thats sustainable, and maybe it wasnt so surprising that it collapsed so quickly. Its a great point, and i think its really important we go into it in detail. I put all these points to someone who until recently was actually fighting as part of the afghan forces in afghanistan. I put exactly these points to him a few days back. What he said to me is there is a lot of truth in all of that, but there is another truth, which is that there was real progress in that kabul is a transformed city, and yes, the taliban had significant parts of territory, but actually, up until 2019, they had no major cities or occasionally they would take one city but then lose it again. People were getting educated. He gave me several stories of his own acquaintance and how people in their families had developed over time. You had a vibrant media and culture, as we can see now. So i think the picture is probably mixed. Heres the point i want to make, because i think this is the toughest thing for us to come to terms with. The people that were fighting are prepared to die, theyre prepared to visit Death And Destruction at whatever scale they can, theyre prepared to kill wholly innocent people. If were trying to build a road, theyre trying to blow it up. If were trying to get people to vote in afghanistan, theyre trying to kill them on the way to the polling booths. Heres my worry over what happened over 20 years. Number one, these people dont have our time scale. We have time scales of four years, five years. This is what i objected to these forever wars. These guys think 20 years is a long time. And the Lesson Theyve taken from what happened is we wait them out. The second thing is what they realize is the more Death And Destruction they inflict, the more they kill our troops, the more they kill the innocent people, the more they destabilize the situation, the more inclined we are to say, this is a failure, we should just get out. But the message youre sending to them is basically, Hang On and carry on doing the maximum damage you can, because in the end, these guys havent got the staying power. The question, i suppose, is where was the way we were handling this helping or hurting . You said we tried to build a bridge and they tried to blow them up. There is an anecdote in the inspector generals report in afghanistan, its in the afghanistan papers. There is an ally to the americans who would build the bridges. They would get blown up and americans would say, what should we do to make sure these bridges dont get blown up . And they would say, my brother is the one blowing them up. If we pay him off, he wont blow them up. So they were paying to build the bridge and then paying to not blow them up. It seemed like we were in a neverending loop where the west was not winning that. No, and i think thats an absolutely fair point, and you can look back on all of this and think of the things we could have done differently. For example, i think there was an early stage of this where we probably should have reached out to parts of the taliban. So i think you learn a whole lot of lessons from how you deal with this. My view very strongly, looking at where my institute was, these groups that are causing this damage, they divide into two. The genuine fanatics and the people that, for all sorts of reasons, good or bad, have associated with them, sometimes to do with money, sometimes to do with tribal issues. So i think we can develop a much more sophisticated strategy in light of what weve learned. My point is a very simple one. Lets agree to that strategy, or if we simply say, look, these are just not our fights. When it comes to our shores, well deal with it, otherwise we want out and well default back to counterterrorism, which is where we were on 9 11, 2001. My point is lets decide it. Tony blair, a pleasure to have a serious, intellectual conversation about this subject. Very important and thank you. Thank you, fareed. Next on gps, what do vulnerable nations around the World Make of Americas Withdrawal from afghanistan amidst the talibans fast advance . Well, i will ask the president of ukraine who faces serious threats from his big neighbor to the east, russia, and wants american guarantees and western guarantees for his security. Wed be closer to the twins. Change in plans. At fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan. I dont Feel Sick why should i cure my Hepatitis C . How can i handle one more thing . You can stay on track and be cured in only 8 weeks with mavyret. You can keep your momentum with mavyret. Before starting mavyret your doctor will test if youve had Hepatitis B which May Flare up and cause serious Liver Problems during and after treatment. 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Top of that list is almost certainly taiwan, but let us not forget about ukraine, which continues to be embroiled in conflict with russia. Moscow, of course, the next crimea, a force of ukraine. And putin published something just last week on this. President Volodymyr Zelensky is the president of ukraine. The president joins me now. Thank you for being here. Thank you for having me. Looking from the outside, it feels like youre in a very difficult situation. You have russia having the next crimea, parts of Eastern Ukraine with forces there, 100,000 russian troops have been gathered on your border. Putin writes this long essay which basically says ukraine may not exist as an independent nation historically. We now get news from gasprom that the they have been created and you get this news from afghanistan. You watch what happens in afghanistan as the u. S. Withdrew its troops and basically abandoned the government of kabul. Do you worry that america will abandon ukraine . Translator first of all, we have to clearly understand that ukraine, when compared to afghanistan, i believe its not an accurate comparison. I dont think we can compare that, ukraine to afghanistan. Ukraine is not so dependent on the United States like afghanistan was, and i really believe that in four or five or seven days, you cant take such a Big Country geographically as ukraine with such a big population and simply occupy it like that. Youre very diplomatic, but youre not answering the question. Let me put it to you in a different way, which is the secretary of Russias Security Counsel said specifically that ukraine should look at what happened in kabul. Just as they abandoned kabul, they will abandon kiev. Translator in 2014, and partners in the u. S. And eu, forgive us. In 2014, at first we ended up where we ended up. There was russian escalation. Our territories were occupied. No one was Hand In hand with us. There was no Military Equipment other than what we had available at that time. There were no other troops, just the citizens of ukraine. And, therefore, we had the wave of volunteers, volunteer battalions, people who came together as a Citizen Effort to protect their own country. There was No One else. So in four days, even in eight years, russia didnt manage to take over. Russia. Its not the taliban army. This is one of the most powerful armies in the world. Thats why we, i think, we stood for our statehood. And this is why, i think, we are as independent as possible from any economy. As i said to President Biden, and partially this is about concerning the possible exit from ukraine, what does it mean to leave ukraine . I mean, its the other way around. The u. S. Should enhance their presence in ukraine. Im very glad that we had a very powerful meeting on a high level in the u. S. , and we have been looking forward very much to this, and the fact that were in the Priority List of the countries that President Biden met with, it means that we are priority for the u. S. , and we are thankful for that. Thats a big signal. But behind the signal, we are also expecting actions. You asked President Biden when you were in the Oval Office with him for ukraine to become a member of nato. Did he say yes . Very directly i asked President Biden very directly, what about nato . What about ukraine . What about our membership in nato . What did he say . He said as far as i remember, i mean, not all the words will be correct, yes, but the main meaning of his speech it was a speech, not one phrase, because we spoke about it, i think, during this about alliance and members made. He said i think you have to be here but its not only my decision. I think i got this rhetoric with him before my meeting, and im sure its true for today. I think its a good position for power for usa. But its true that it includes suggestions and some leaders, and i said, i know, mr. President , but from your decision, this way to nato will be more transparency, will be more clear for us, for ukraine. I know it. So you think that usa always give message and signal, i think, to europe, and if we dont see where he directed, yes, tomorrow, or yes, the day after tomorrow, thats why it goes such a way. Next up, i was supposed to interview President Zelensky two years ago this month. Why didnt it happen then . Well, it had a lot to do with thenPresident Trump. I will talk to Ukraines Leader about exactly what happened when we come back. , and build a straightforward plan to generate income, even when youre not working. A plan that gives you the chance to grow your savings and create Cash Flow that lasts. Along the way, well give you ways to be tax efficient. And you can start, stop or adjust your plan at any time without the unnecessary fees. 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Did you ever think you would have to, did you ever feel the pressure from trump was so great that you would have to come on a show like this and announce an investigation . Translator yeah, no. Maybe thats because i wasnt in politics before. And i was looking at life, and i still look at it just the way i do. I have to work a lot, a whole lot. I have to pay taxes. And i want to go down in History And Gain success. That was my credo before i became president. And i was always happy when there was a victory and the Ukranian Flag would come up. But also when america would Win Tv Awards and outplay us, or in sports when they would outperform. I never thought there was any pressure on us. I thought Theres Room to improve. So thats ambitious. I always thought that we are an independent country, and i feel like an ambitious, independent person who has to learn every day from the best. Thats why my conversation with President Trump was along the same lines. I knew that we needed to have good relations with the United States, that they support us, and we must get more from the United States. This was my objective. Thats why you wanted the white House Meeting . Translator yes. This is exactly why we wanted the meeting. It wasnt just about having a Picture Hanging over the fireplace. I mean, im very at ease with this. Im very easygoing with these things. He is the president of the United States. This is not robert deniro. To Me Robert Deniro was my idol. With him i would talk casually regardless of whether there would be assistance or not before i became president. And here, This Is Serious stuff. This is at the level of the person on which the stability of our country depends and the assistance to my country. We need a relationship. Did it strike you as odd or disappointing that heres the United States telling ukraine to clean up its corruption, and then the president of the United States is asking you to do something that was not very straightforward. He was asking you to do something to help his reelection campaign. Translator i didnt feel that he was making me do something. And i was telling the truth then. I didnt feel such pressure. As i said quite ambitiously, i am the president of my country. No one can pressure us. It wasnt just diplomacy in the present position. I didnt feel it. I wasnt ready to feel this and i am not ready. I dont feel that. I was thirnking about my countr, about the assistance. I didnt want to jeopardize the military aid, and i wanted to have another meeting at the White House because my country needed this. President zelensky, a pleasure and an honor having you on. Thank you so much. Next on gps, the great jewish tradition of shiva that has been resonating with me this weekend adds we mark the 20th anniversary of 9 11 and all that flowed from that terrible day. A place where everyone lives life wellprotected. And even when things go a bit wrong, weve got your back. Here, things work the way you wish they would. And better protection costs a whole lot less. Youre in good hands with allstate. Click or call for a lower Auto Rate today. Before we talk about taxsmart investing, whats new . Audreys expecting. Twins wed be closer to the twins. Change in plans. At fidelity, a change in plans is always part of the plan. jackie ive made progress with my Mental Health. So when i started having unintentional Body Movements called tardive dyskinesia. I ignored them. But when the twitching and jerking in my face and hands affected my day to day. I finally had to say, its not ok. it was time to talk to my doctor about austedo. She said that austedo helps reduce Td Movements in adults. While i continue with most of my Mental Health medications. Vo Austedo can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntingtons disease. Pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have suicidal thoughts. Common Side Effects include inflammation of the nose and throat, insomnia and sleepiness. Dont take austedo if you have Liver Problems, are taking reserpine, tetrabenazine, or valbenazine. Austedo may cause irregular or fast heartbeat, restlessness, movements mimicking parkinsons disease, fever, stiff muscles, problems thinking, and sweating. Jackie Talk to your doctor about austedo. Its time to treat td. Td is not ok. Visit askforaustedo. Com. Emergency planning for kids. We cant predict when an emergency will happen. So thats why its important to make a plan with your parents. Here are a few tips to stay safe. Know how to get in touch with your family. Write down Phone Numbers for your parents, siblings and neighbors. Pick a place to meet your family if you are not together and cant go home. Remind your parents to pack an emergency supply kit. Making a plan might feel like homework, but it will help you and your family stay safe during an emergency. And now for the last look. The phrase Lessons Of The Past is usually an empty cliche, because what we are describing is what we hope people will learn. In fact, people are often defensive and fail to learn from their previous mistakes, and that famous dictum, we are condemned to repeat them. But there are exceptions and weve seen an extraordinary example just in the last week. The antidefamation league, one of the important organizations battling prejudice and discrimination has repudiated one of the noxious decisions its ever made in its long history. In a piece, jonathan greenblatt, the Ceo And Director of the adl, talked about its position in the mosque. For those who dont recall, this was a proposed institution modelled after the jewish Community Center in manhattan with the goal of promoting interfaith dialogue and interreligious harmony. It was to be led by the Cordoba House in spain and it was led by democracy and human rights. But the project quickly became a target of demagogues like Newt Gingrich who used its Association A Block from the Twin Towers to fan the flames of fear and bigotry. There were general statesmen like Michael Bloomberg who delivered a memorable address On Freedom In America in support of the islamic center. But, sadly, Emotion And Prejudice won out and the project was abandoned in a frenzy of islamophobia. I reacted to the controversy on this show in 2010, explaining why the basic idea behind Cordoba House was so important and so broadly admired. Do you know ever since 9 11 the United States has been trying to engage in a battle of ideas against Radical Islam. Now, America Cant really get involved in a debate within islam, so that means finding and supporting moderate muslims. This is a cultural struggle that has been warmly supported by liberals and conservatives. In fact, many conservatives have argued we should be engaged in a much more extensive and expensive effort to fund moderates and delegitimize radical and violent islam. Under both the Bush And Obama administrations, there have been active efforts worldwide to support muslims who are trying to rescue their religion from extremists, fundamentalists and jihadis. This means supporting mosques and Community Leaders who share a future and pluralistic vision of islam. Except, we find out, if they are in our own backyard. I then noted the opposition to Cordoba House and explained why that had a special significance for me. The direct of or of the adl explained they had feelings on this matter that should be respected even if they were irrational. First of all, there were many dozens of victims of 9 11 who were muslim. Do their feelings count . More important, irrational feelings, prejudices, hatreds okay because those expressing them are victims or see themselves as victims . Will the adl defend the rights of palestinian victims to be antisemites . I have to say i was personally deeply saddened by the adls stand, because five years ago the organization honored me with its Hubert Humphrey Award for first amendment freedoms. Given the position they have taken on a Core Issue of religious freedom in america, i cannot in good conscience keep that award. So this week im going to return to the adl the Hand Ssome Medal and the generous honorarium that came with it. I hope they see they made a mistake with robust freedom in america. Something they explained for decades and which i honored them for. Its taken 11 years, but its still remarkable the Adl Leadership has taken a serious look at its past, learned from it, and then had the courage to publicly acknowledge its mistake. Greenblatt pointed out that he was writing his apology in the period the jews were celebrating high holy days, and that he did it in the spirit of the jewish concept of the Shuva Or Selfexamination or repentance. I wish we could all learn from the adl example, and as we look back over the war on terror, genuinely ask ourselves, where did we go wrong . Can we reconcile the past . And what actions can we take today to make up for our own mistakes . Let us all be brave enough to engage in teshuvah. Thank you all for being part of my program this week. I will see you next week. Announcer fareed Zakaria Gps is brought to you by crowdstrike. I brought in ensure max protein, with thirty grams of protein. 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