All right. Us And them. The longer thAt thAt stAys the stAte of plAy, on Any level, society is doomed. It us And them. The founding of this country wAs All About the surrender of the me, to the we. It hAsnt been done right since its inception, but its AlwAys been An experiment. Its AlwAys been About getting better. Will we recommit to the ideA of becoming better . Or will we just be doomed to just wAtch ourselves get worse . ThAnk you for wAtching. Cnn tonight. The big show, with the big stAr, d. Lemon, right now. Im breAthing heAvy, right now. BecAuse, you know, the person you need to be sAying thAt And who needs to heAr it is <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/rick-sAntorum'>Rick SAntorumA>. I cAnnot wAtching thAt interview in my office i cAnnot believe the offifirst wo out of his mouth werent im sorry, i sAid something ignorAnt. I you know, i need to leArn About the history of this country. No contrition. Does didnt tAlk About, you know, the suffering thAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/nAtive-AmericAns'>NAtive AmericAnsA> hAve hAd to deAl with in this country. It wAs i meAn, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/rick-sAntorum'>Rick SAntorumA>, reAlly . Who did he think did he ActuAlly think it wAs A good ideA for him to come on television And try to whitewAsh the whitewAsh thAt he whitewAshed . I meAn, it wAs it wAs horrible. It wAs horrible And insulting, And i Apologize to the viewers, who were insulted by it. BecAuse i wAs sitting in my office, furious, becAuse he is A d done it so mAny times. So mAny times And im just im sorry. It wAs just it wAs so egregious And insulting. And everything thAt we tAlk About, About the founding of this country. EuropeAns did not found found this country. It wAs here. The <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/nAtive-AmericAns'>NAtive AmericAnsA> hAd this country, before the europeAns cAme. YeAh, the europeAns conquered the country. They colonized it. But they didnt it it hAd nothing to do with the founding of this country. And he should recognize thAt. He needs to know thAt, especiAlly if he is going to be on television, representing us And tAlking About it. He should be doing it, from the right perspective. And not from some perspective About how, you know, whAt europeAns no. ThAt thAts the wrong wAy to look At it. ThAt is he is he is its All wrong. Im sorry, but thAt is the truth. And i cAnt believe. I just, i wAs wAtching it going i cAnt believe this mAn is sitting here And doing this. It wAs for blAck lives mAtter, it wAs like nAtive AmericAn <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/lives-mAtter-moment'>Lives MAtter MomentA> for me, wAtching thAt. Well, Ask yourself this. Once, you know, you deAl with the emotion of it. Why Are things like thAt sAid . And why, does he not Apologize . But sAy thAts not for me to Answer. ThAts for him to Answer. But you hAve to becAuse, otherwise, youre not going to hAve Any plAce to put your pAin. I dont listen. Listen. I will hAve A plAce to put my pAin. I hAve this plAtform, And i hAve to be honest About it. And so, i hAve got A plAce to put my pAin. Im tAlking About the people who dont. I Am speAking for the people who dont hAve A plAtform. But you got to do more thAn just echo the outrAge of whAt he sAys. No, i dont. ThAts where youre wrong. ThAts where youre wrong. I dont know Anything About this whole <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/rick-sAntorum'>Rick SAntorumA> thing. I dont know Anything About thAt. I just sitting wAtching thAt interview And i heArd bits And pieces of it And when i sAw him, wAs he going to Apologize . I knew nothing About the outrAge. I knew Anothing About thAt. The world is not twitter. WhAt i Am sAying is this isnt twitter. I dont cAre About twitter. You know thAt. WhAt i Am sAying is this. I hAd him on, becAuse i wAnt people to see whAt this is. There is no mystery for you guys. People know whAt it is, chris. No, they dont. No, they dont. BecAuse if you just dismiss it, don im not dismissing it. As hes wrong, thAts not the truth. But sometimes, people Are wrong. But why do people keep sAying it, then . BecAuse becAuse we Allow them to sAy it. No. No. No. Yes, it is. Im not censoring. You sAid we Allow them. You dont get to decide who sAys whAt. I sAid i cAnt believe thAt he cAme on And the first words out of his mouth were wAsnt k contrition. How cAn you not believe it . How cAn i not believe it . YeAh. BecAuse he is blAming then, he turned it into this thing About the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA> And trump. This hAd nothing to do with trump. The only thing it hAd to do with trump is thAt he is thAt he wAs one of the people thAt Allowed this pArty to become the trump pArty. ThAts right. ThAts like me thAts like me, pleAse, stop dwrelyelling A. I Am trying to complete my thought. ThAts like me sAying, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/chris-cuomo'>Chris CuomoA> i sAid something thAt offended people And blAming it on <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/chris-cuomo'>Chris CuomoA>. It hAs nothing to do this is About rick. Its About <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/rick-sAntorum'>Rick SAntorumA>. ThAts whAt its About. For me, i will just sAy this becAuse i know you got A show to do. Look. This country is in A crisis, thAt is All About identity. And there is A wAger being mAde, on the right, thAt they cAn get enough white people to believe thAt they Are tArgeted. ThAt theres been A perverseculture shift. And thAt they Are being replAced. True . No. But its not About fActs. Its About feel. I think people AlreAdy know thAt. I think people know thAt. If thAt were true, then thAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/pArty-wouldnt'>PArty WouldntA> be As formidAble. And the democrAts wouldnt be As vulnerAble, As they Are in the upcoming midterms. No. Its people AlreAdy know thAt. And the people in the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA> know thAt. ThAts why you hAve 70 of them sAy biden didnt win. You hAve An insurrection, becAuse people believe thAt AmericA wAs founded in the imAge of white people. And thAt, the country wAs built in their imAge. And therefore, the election should go their wAy. Its the sAme thing thAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/rick-sAntorum'>Rick SAntorumA> is sAying About <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/nAtive-AmericAns'>NAtive AmericAnsA>. And the lAck of contribution, whAt hAve you. Its the sAme thing. I think people know thAt. I just think people Are tired of being insulted every single dAy. 70 of thAt pArty Accepts thAt doesnt mAke it right. The <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. ThAt doesnt mAke it right. Of course, it doesnt mAke it right. WhAt i Am sAying is if it were As simple As <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/two-plus'>Two PlusA> two equAls four, we wouldnt be in the situAtion. Youre not getting Anywhere. I know you Are upset. WhAt i Am sAying is whAts the solution . WhAts the fix . If it were As simple As hes wrong wrong youre right, we wouldnt be here. ThAts All. We got to go becAuse were not going to Agree. I Agree becAuse i know where you Are coming from squi love you, don lemon. We Agree on the problem. WhAt is the solution . We got to figure it out. I got A solution but AnywAys, not my decision. ThAnk you, see yA lAter. This is cnn to wAnt. I Am don lemon. So, in the in whAt we were tAlking About, And AgAin, im not going to Apologize. This is how i feel. About this. This is im don lemon. Does <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA> think youre stupid . Do the republicAns think youre stupid . Heres why i Ask. BecAuse they keep lying to you. They keep not understAnding history. They keep giving you misinformAtion. Not becAuse they think youll believe it, becAuse they they Are sure you will believe it. I know thAts A bit strong. So, mAybe i should sAy thAt theyre sure enough, enough of you will believe it, so thAt they they keep on doing it. Do you get my point . ThAts the point i wAs trying to mAke to chris. Enough of you will believe it so they keep on doing it, if you let them. Trump And the republicAns. If you let them do it, without holding them to Account. You hAve to do your pArt. You hAve to hold them to Account. You hAve to contAct them About their lies. You hAve to vote them out. You hAve to cAll the people out in your life, who believe in the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. And you hAve to tell them About themselves. BecAuse if you dont, the fAct is thAt, our democrAcy is in dAnger. Do you do you get thAt . This is importAnt, And i wAnt you to listen. This is not About politics, At All. Its not About right versus left. This is About A pArty, with one, simple test for who is in, And who is out. If you reject the results of the 2020 election. If you Are willing to delegitimize the votes of more thAn <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/81-million'>81 MillionA> AmericAns, who cAst their bAllots for <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/joe-biden'>Joe BidenA>. If you Are willing to side with the lie, over the truth, then youre in, in thAt pArty. If you stAnd up for the truth, for democrAcy, youre hAnging by A threAd. The <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA> is being tAken over by those who reject the results of our freeAndfAir election, the foundAtion of our democrAcy. And insteAd, promote the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. TAken over, by those who refuse to Acknowledge the deAdly insurrection At the united stAtes cApitol. Refuse to Acknowledge whAt we, All, sAw with our own eyes. Bloodthirsty, trumpsupporting rioters AttAcking police, And hunting lAwmAkers. Incited by thAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. TAken over, by those who wAnt to mAke it more difficult for AmericAns, specificAlly blAck And brown AmericAns, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/nAtive-AmericAns'>NAtive AmericAnsA>, who tend to vote democrAtic. To mAke it more difficult for them to cAst their bAllots. And now, people, like <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney-liz'>Liz Cheney LizA> cheney, of All people . Liz cheney. Dick cheneys dAughter. On the ropes becAuse she refuses to promote the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. BecAuse she is telling her pArty exActly whAt it doesnt wAnt to heAr, And thAt is the truth. Im here to tell you the truth, people. ThAts All. ThAts it. Sources telling cnn thAt cnns <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jAmie-gAngel'>JAmie GAngelA> thAt the congresswomAn, the numberthree house republicAn, sAid this todAy in An <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/offtherecord-interview'>Offtherecord InterviewA> with formerhouse speAker, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/pAul-ryAn'>PAul RyAnA>. And i quote here. We cAnt rebuild the pArty or the conservAtive movement on A foundAtion of lies. We cAnt embrAce the notion the election is stolen. We <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/cAnt-whitewAsh'>CAnt WhitewAshA> whAt hAppened on <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jAnuAry-6th'>JAnuAry 6thA> or perpetuAte trumps <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. Its A threAt to democrAcy. And thAt could cost <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> her <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/leAdership-position'>LeAdership PositionA> in A <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA>, thAt is teAring itself ApArt, right now. The congresswomAn And A hAndful of other republicAns, on one side. On the other . More And more members of whAt used to be the pArty of lincoln. Now, the pArty of A disgrAced, twiceimpeAched, oneterm president , who lost the house, lost the senAte, And lost the white house. Trump lost. He lost every he lost. But heres whAt. Heres whAt you should know. Trumpism did not. Not As long As republicAns Are willing to buy into the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. Former president , now, issuing one stAtement, After Another, since he wAs kicked off twitter, in the wAke of the insurrection. Tonight, resorting to insulting <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/congresswomAn-cheney'>CongresswomAn CheneyA>, And clAiming shell never run in the wyoming election in A wyoming election, AgAin. ThAt, After lAbeling the 2020 election, election he lost, frAudulent And the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>, in All cAps. Of course, here we go, AgAin. ThAts reAlly something. The mAn, who hAs been shAmelessly spreAding the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. Or just <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>s. Hes lied so much, come on, people. Hes lies, on top of lies. ThAts All he wAs consistent with. WAs lying. ThAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/bogus-lie'>Bogus LieA> of election frAud. Trying to coopt the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/phrAse-And-lAbeling'>PhrAse And LAbelingA> the election he locket the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. Liz cheney, cAlling him out, tweeting this. The 2020president iAl election wAs not stolen. Anyone who clAims it wAs is spreAding the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>, turning their bAck on the rule of lAw, And poisoning our democrAtic system. And thAts why the congresswomAns <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/leAdership-position'>LeAdership PositionA> is hAnging by A threAd, tonight. She is on the outs with the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/minority-leAder'>Minority LeAderA> <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/kevin-mccArthy'>Kevin MccArthyA>, who hAs mAde it cleAr thAt he will do whAtever he hAs to do to get on trumps good side. Including, mAking A pilgrimAge to mArAlAgo just A couple of weeks After the insurrection. MccArthy hAs the power to cAll for A quick vote to, effectively, seek <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/congresswomAn-cheney'>CongresswomAn CheneyA>s removAl from his leAdership teAm. Sources tell cnn it is uncleAr if he will do thAt As soon As next week. But multiple republicAns sAy she is on veryshAky ground. MccArthy, who defended her <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/behind-closed-doors'>Behind Closed DoorsA> in februAry, now sAid to be furious. Is cheney still A good fit for your leAdership teAm, do you believe . ThAts A question for the conference. And then, theres <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/mitt-romney'>Mitt RomneyA>. Who wAs the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/gop-cAndidAte'>Gop CAndidAteA> for president in 2012, who voted twice to impeAch <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA>. He wAs booed At the utAhgop convention, this weekend. And you know me, As A person who who sAys whAt he thinks. And i dont hide the fAct thAt i wAsnt A fAn of our lAst president s chArActer issues. Now, yes, you might cAll me An o oldfAshioned republicAn. I Am. Well, trump, of course, on the AttAck. CAlling the senAtor A rhino And A loser. I meAn, thAts its suchsimple, elementAryschool lAnguAge. And we hAve been tAlking About it for, whAt, five yeArs or even A decAde. StArting with the birtherism thing. A loser. Who does thAt . ThAts like some hAppydAys crAp thAt people used to sAy. Youre A loser. But yet, he wAs the president. And the members of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/romneys-pArty'>Romneys PArtyA> And his own <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/home-stAte'>Home StAteA> boo him . OkAy. ThAts how complete the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/trump-tAkeover'>Trump TAkeoverA> hAs become. The 43rd president of the united stAtes. George w. Bush wArning his pArty thAt, if they follow trumps leAd, if they become the pArty of lies, the pArty of white AnglosAxons, theyre not going to win. If the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA> stAnds for exclusivity, you know, used to be country clubs. Now, evidently, its white AnglosAxon protestAntism, then its not going to win Anything. RepublicAn hypocrisy is on full displAy, with more And more leAders who once spoke out AgAinst trump, now tying themselves up in knots to burnish their trump cred. WhAtever hAppened to the mccArthy <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/kevin-mccArthy'>Kevin MccArthyA> . Who sAid this. This wAs one week After the insurrection At the cApitol. The president beArs responsibility for <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/wednesdAys-AttAck'>WednesdAys AttAckA> on congress, by mob rioters. He should hAve, immediAtely, denounced the mob when he sAw whAt wAs unfolding. Just one week lAter . Do you believe thAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/president-trump'>President TrumpA> provoked . I dont believe he provoked, if you listen to whAt he sAid At the rAlly. WhAt A difference, A week mAkes. And then, theres <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/chris-christie'>Chris ChristieA> grAding the former president on quite A curve. Oh, listen. OverAll, i give the president An A. An A, huh . OkAy. WhAtever hAppened to the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/chris-christie'>Chris ChristieA>, who sAid thAt hed vote to impeAch trump over the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/cApitol-insurrection'>CApitol InsurrectionA> . An A. I meAn, whAt we hAd wAs An incitement to riot At the united stAtes cApitol. We hAd people killed. And to me, theres not A whole lot of question here. So, you know so, you think it wAs An impeAchAble offense . Oh, sure. YeAh. Youd vote to impeAch . I think thAt, you know, in the well, thAts if i think its An impeAchAble offense, thAts exActly whAt i would do, george, but im not in there. But you wAnt my opinion, thAts my opinion. I think if if inciting to insurrection isnt, then i dont reAlly know whAt is. An A . Inciting An insurrection, but An A. I i would hAve been <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/sum-summA-cum'>Sum SummA CumA> lAude if thAt were the wAy they grAded me. But thAt is the gop, todAy. And the gop, todAy, should stop sAying thAts not who we Are. Liz cheney is who we Are. AdAm kinzinger is who we Are. ChArlie dent is who we Are. No. ThAts who you used to be. The <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/gop-pArty'>Gop PArtyA> of todAy is willing to sAy Anything, willing to do Anything, to get on trumps good side. And it is, well, working for them, to be frAnk. 70 of republicAns think <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/joe-biden'>Joe BidenA> did not legitimAtely get enough votes to win. Just tAlked About this with chris. 70 of republicAns believe the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. And it is A lie. So, i Asked you the question, do republicAns think youre stupid . Does <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA> think youre stupid . BecAuse people dont lie to you. No, im not going to go there. How the pArty of lincoln hAs fAllen. Now, theyre the pArty of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/election-deniAl'>Election DeniAlA>, the pArty of insurrection. The pArty of qAnon. The pArty of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/congresswomAn-mArjorie-tAylor'>CongresswomAn MArjorie TAylorA> greene. The pArty of mAtt gAetz, under A federAl investigAtion for AllegAtions of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/sex-trAfficking'>Sex TrAffickingA> And prostitution. The pArty of ridiculousculture wArs over dr. Seuss, mr. PotAto heAd, And red meAt. How cAn you trust the gop, now . How cAn you trust thAt pArty . When they lie, strAight to your fAce, every single dAy. How do you trust someone who lies to you, every dAy . If you Are A fAmily member, if your loved one, if your spouse lied to you everysingle dAy, would you trust them . Are they relevAnt . Are they even reAl, now . Where Are the policy proposAls . How cAn you tAke them seriously . Liz cheney, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/mitt-romney'>Mitt RomneyA>. You wAnt thAt to be the pArty . Well, theyve got A whole lot of work. Theyve got their work cut out for them. Like i sAid, the AmericAn experiment in democrAcy, in peril. As long As you keep letting people get AwAy with this stuff. Lie to your fAce. You dont cAll them out. You hAve to confront. You know, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/ibrAm-kenndi'>IbrAm KenndiA> sAys you hAve to be An AntirAcist, you hAve to be An AntiliAr, you hAve to be An Antiinsurrectionist. You hAve to be An AntiwhitewAsher of history. You hAve to be An Antibigot. WhAt Are we going to choose . WhAt Are you going to choose . The truth . Or lies . JAmie gAngel is here. JAmie, thAnk you. Its its so good to see your fAce. Youre A breAth of fresh Air, And, boy, i need to tAke A breAth. ThAnk you for for joining And its good to see you. I Am so hAppy to be here. And i just wAnt to sAy thAt, you And <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> mAy not Agree on mAny things. YeAh. But you both Agree thAt democrAcy is in dAnger. It is in dAnger, right now. So, speAking of. Good evening to you, by the wAy. SpeAking of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/congresswomAn-cheney'>CongresswomAn CheneyA>, she is condemning trump. She is condemning the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. She is condemning the insurrection. She is not mincing words. WhAt else did she sAy during this interview with <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/pAul-ryAn'>PAul RyAnA> todAy . So, this wAs <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/behind-closed-doors'>Behind Closed DoorsA>. And According to two of our sources, who were in the room, she stood up for truth. And she doubled down on <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA>. And let me just reAd you A little bit of whAt she sAid. You mentioned some of this. Quote. We cAnt rebuild the pArty or the conservAtive movement, on A foundAtion of lies. We cAnt embrAce the notion the election is stolen. Its A poison in the bloodstreAm of our democrAcy. We cAnt be A cult of personAlity. We <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/cAnt-whitewAsh'>CAnt WhitewAshA> whAt hAppened on <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jAnuAry-6th'>JAnuAry 6thA> or perpetuAte trumps <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. It is A threAt to democrAcy. WhAt he did, on <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jAnuAry-6th'>JAnuAry 6thA>, is A line thAt cAnnot be crossed. Which sounds pretty reAsonAble, don, unless , it seems, you Are <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/kevin-mccArthy'>Kevin MccArthyA>. Who wAnts <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> gone, As soon As possible. He does. YeAh. There is no love lost, between the two, At this point. So, this is whAt i Am told by sources who Are fAmiliAr with the dynAmics. Kevin mccArthy cAres About one thing. And thAts About being speAker of the house. And After thAt tApe you plAyed of him, on jAnuAry 13th, where he sAid trump wAs responsible. Oops. He wAnts to tAke it All bAck. And he is going After <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> for one reAson, And one reAson only. His own, politicAl gAin. He wAnts bAck in to <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA>s good grAces, And he knows the wAy to do thAt is to tAke <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> out. And my understAnding is there will likely be A vote, next week, mAy 12th, when they come bAck into session. Hmm. JAmie gAngel, AlwAys A pleAsure. ThAnk you. Good to see you. ThAnk you so much. Does the gop reAlly wAnt to be the pArty of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/election-deniAl'>Election DeniAlA> . WhitewAshing . Insurrection . And emptyculture wArs . Do they reAlly wAnt to be the pArty of lies . Or the pArty of truth . 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CongresswomAn <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA>, number three republicAn in the house, doubling down on her criticism of trumps <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA> of election frAud. CAlling It Poison for our democrAcy. Her rebuke of trump could very well cost cheney her <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/leAdership-position'>LeAdership PositionA>. Lets tAlk About thAt now. Jon meAchAm is here. The president iAl historiAn. The president iAl historiAn. Good to see you, jon. ThAnks for joining us. You hAve got the numberthree republicAn leAder sAying her own pArtys lies Are poisoning democrAcy. Seems like, we Are reAlly in dAngerous territory, right now. Put this into perspective for us. We Are. We hAve A mAjor pArty. One of the two mAjor pArties thAt is in full flight from fAct. It hAs become cAptive to its own nArrAtive of grievAnce, And disillusionment with reAlity. One of the ironies of this is the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA> loves to mAke fun of people, who think of themselves As victims. And yet, they Are brilliAnt Architects of their own nArrAtive of of grievAnce. I think thAt representAtive cheney hAs A remArkAble opportunity here. I think shes AlreAdy tAking AdvAntAge of it. To be A kind of mArgAret chAse smith. The greAt senAtor from mAine who, in 1950, four yeArs before <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/joe-mccArthy'>Joe MccArthyA> wAs censured. FouryeArs before, she wAs the first person, the first republicAn, to stAnd up on the floor of the senAte. And sAy, in A speech cAlled the declArAtion of conscience, sAy thAt mccArthy wAs out of the mAinstreAm of AmericAn trAdition of fAir plAy. And i sAlute her for doing this. It mAy cost her something, in the short term. But if if you think About things, historicAlly, And if you think About things more structurAlly, which the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/cheney-fAmily'>Cheney FAmilyA> does. You Are doing the right thing. Youre on the right side of history. And, jon, you dont get more conservAtive thAn <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA>. Am i wrong . I dont think so, no. But thAt see, thAts one of the things thAts so importAnt in this conversAtion. It goes to whAt you Are tAlking About, About truth And lies. Is these folks, in the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA> todAy, they Arent conservAtive in A recognizAble form. The flAmethrowers. This is not edmondburg And this is not eisenhower, this isnt robert tAft. This is A kind of nihilistic will to power. Theyre not About ends, At this point. The end is the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/holding-And-keeping'>Holding And KeepingA> of power. How, else, do you explAin the illogicAl, immorAl embrAce of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA> After, i would sAy before but lets just tAke it tAke it for whAt cheney is sAying, After <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jAnuAry-6th'>JAnuAry 6thA>. How do you do thAt . ConfederAte troops didnt get into the cApitol during the civil wAr. But they did on <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jAnuAry-6th'>JAnuAry 6thA>. And so, thAts thAts not A pArty thAts working within A trAdition of <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/eisenhower-And-reAgAn'>Eisenhower And ReAgAnA> And And the bushes or the cheneys. And you cAn Argue, All dAy long, And And people will, About the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/fAmilys-publicpolicy'>FAmilys PublicpolicyA> positions. But they were in they hAve been, in fAct, pArt of A trAdition. On the right side of thAt trAdition. A pArty with trAdition, in which we Argued About the relAtive role of the stAte in the mArketplAce. And the relAtive projection of force, AgAinst foreign foes And rivAls. And thAt Argument is supposed to be whAt A democrAcy is. Its not supposed to be, im going to choose my entire reAlity. Right. Right. Right on. Listen. I dont know which cAme first. The chicken or the egg. But, i often heAr you tAlking About this. And now, i heAr the the president tAlking About it. I dont know if you sAid it first or he sAid it first. But <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/joe-biden'>Joe BidenA> often tAlks About restoring the soul of AmericA, And the need for two heAlthypoliticAl pArties. How cAn thAt hAppen when one of the pArties is teAring itself ApArt . And is not, As you sAid, living in reAlity . CreAting its own reAlity . YeAh. If they were just teAring themselves ApArt, thAtd be fine. The problem is they Are trying to teAr up the rest of us, with them. Right . This is not A gopcivil wAr. This is A wAr on AmericAn democrAcy. BecAuse theyre not these foreignpolicy terms, theyre not A pArtner for peAce. Right . You know, in foreignpolicy thinking, to hAve A negotiAtion, you hAve to hAve A rAtionAl Actor, on the other side. There is not A rAtionAl Actor, on the republicAn side now. And i wAnt to be very cleAr. This is not reflexively pArtisAn, on my pArt. I Am resistAnt the 1930s AnAlogies. Im not A democrAt. Im not A republicAn. I hAve voted for both. Im george h. W. Bushs biogrApher, for god sAke. Im not exActly A flAmethrower. I reAlly, reAlly believe thAt the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA>, As currently constituted And run, is no longer A viAble, productive pArt of the constitutionAldemocrAtic republic. And its terrible. This is A pArty of And there Are people who dont like em but, AgAin, the pArty of eisenhower And And reAgAn And And the bushes. And disAgree, All you wAnt. Vociferously, virulently. But they were pArt of A structure thAt mAde sense. Where you followed the rules. Uhhuh. If you win one dAy And i lose todAy, my job As A democrAtic republic is to regAther my forces, And try to beAt you in the next election. I dont just sAy, no, you didnt win. YeAh, thAts not true. You know, the thAt reAson collApses, At thAt point. And pAssion tAkes over. And thAts whAts hAppened. Well, i think youre right. And listen. FActuAl AnAlysis is not is not pArtisAn. But, thAt is the only defense, i think, when the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/truth-isnt'>Truth IsntA> on your side, to try to pAint someone As liberAl or pArtisAn, becAuse the fActs dont line up with your side. I wAnt you to tAlk to me And thAts A Perfect Segue to your new podcAst cAlled fAte of fAct. You offer historicAl perspective on the forces thAt led to <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/trumps-presidency'>Trumps PresidencyA> And the insurrection. TAlk to me About thAt, jon. I reAlly believe thAt this goes bAck to The End of the second world wAr. Right . The pArAnoid style in AmericAn politics, conspirAcies, hAve been with us from the very beginning. But i think thAt, if you look At whAt hAppened to tAke so mAny republicAns, And put them in this cult of personAlity, to use representAtive cheneys term. To whAt wAs it, right . It it its becAuse the fringe hAs become mAinstreAm. And my theory of the cAse, tAke it or leAve it, is thAt, to some extent, ever since The End of the second world wAr, republicAns hAve felt, conservAtives hAve felt, thAt the president s they hAve worked hArd to elect, hAve not delivered for them. And in fAct, hAve governed quite differently thAn whAt they expected. So, eisenhower comes in. They expect the new deAl to be ripped up. Eisenhower governs, pretty much, from the center. He Appointed wArren to be Chief Justice of the united stAtes. WArren gives the country to brown decision, the mirAndA decision, the removAl of sectAriAn <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/school-prAyer'>School PrAyerA> from public schools, which in 1962, wAs reAlly kind of the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/peArl-hArbor'>PeArl HArborA> of the culture wArs. RichArd nixon, in 1968, runs hArd to the right. He creAtes the epA. Things About A fAm guArAnteedfAmily income. A <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/heAlthcAre-plAn'>HeAlthcAre PlAnA> thAt mAkes obAmAcAre look quite conservAtive. And he goes to chinA, And he Appoints four <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/justice-s'>Justice SA> to the supreme court, one of whom writes the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/mAjority-opinion'>MAjority OpinionA> in roe v. WAde. ReAgAn cAme in. He did cut tAxes And then he rAised them five or six times. NegotiAted with the soviets, And federAl spending grew on his wAtch. George h. W. Bush is the embodiment of this. You know, his his decisions, As he put it, to follow sound governAnce, violAted the rising <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/rightwing-ideology'>Rightwing IdeologyA> And <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/newt-gingrich'>Newt GingrichA> turned thAt into the 1994 lAndslide, As well As Anticlintonism. And george w. Bush would tell you there is A line between <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/tArp-And-trump'>TArp And TrumpA> in 2008. And so, i think, republicAns mAny republicAns hAve become enAmored of this story of grievAnce. The world is AgAinst them And even the republicAn president s were A rAid AgAinst them. So, by god, we Are going to send you somebody whos totAlly unconventionAl. Jon meAchAm, AlwAys A pleAsure. FAte of fAct. ThAts his new podcAst. I AppreciAte you joining us, i will tAlk to you soon. ThAnk you. One republicAn telling cnn thAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/congresswomAn-cheney'>CongresswomAn CheneyA> hAs less support in her pArty thAn she thinks. 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SAy wAtchAthon into your voice remote And wAtch for free so, the house <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/minority-leAder'>Minority LeAderA> <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/kevin-mccArthy'>Kevin MccArthyA> is sAid to be furious At gop congresswomAn, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA>, As she cAlls out the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/pA-pArtys-embrAce'>PA PArtys EmbrAceA> of trumps <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA>. MccArthy hAs the power to cAll for A quick vote thAt could remove cheney from his leAdership teAm. OkAy. So, cnns <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jAmie-gAngel'>JAmie GAngelA>. You sAw her reporting At the top of the show. Reporting thAt the cAll for thAt vote could come on mAy 12th. Joining me now, cnn senior politicAl AnAlyst, mr. John Avlon. And cnn politicAl commentAtor, ms. AnnA nAvArro. Good evening, to both of you. Lets pose this question to you About <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> not AfrAid to cAll out trump And his lies. She is tAking A huge risk here. How is this going to end, do you think . I think, cleArly, her <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/leAdership-position'>LeAdership PositionA>s At risk but she is fighting the good fight. She is fighting the right fight. This should not be A <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/jump-bAll'>Jump BAllA> between truth And lies. And the fAct thAt <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/kevin-mccArthy'>Kevin MccArthyA> is trying to creAte some equivAlence between truth And lies <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/sp-lie'>Sp LieA> speAks to A deeper sickness in our politics And <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/republicAn-pArty'>RepublicAn PArtyA>. But mAke no mistAke, this is dAngerous for democrAcy to hAve one politicAl pArty decide they Are going to bAck the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA> in the fAce of All fActs becAuse they think it is in their shortterm interest. AnnA, mccArthy is sAid to be furious. He wAnts her out of gop leAdership. He cAn cAll for A quick vote to oust her, if he wAnts. Is this whAt hAppens if you stAnd up for truth, in <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/todAys-gop'>TodAys GopA> . They try to get rid of you . It reAlly is Astounding. It is Astounding thAt hes okAy with mAtt gAetz, who is being federAlly investigAted for <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/sex-trAfficking'>Sex TrAffickingA> with A minor. But hes furious At <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> for speAking the truth, And for Fist Bumping the president of the united stAtes. Now, think About this. Think About the hypocrisy here. OkAy . They Are mAd At <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> for Fist Bumping <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/joe-biden'>Joe BidenA>. DonAld trump hAd hillAry And <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/bill-clinton'>Bill ClintonA> At his wedding. They Are cAlling <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/mitt-romney'>Mitt RomneyA> A trAitor And A communist And A rhino. They Are cAlling <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> A rhino. Lets look At the federAl spending And nAtionAl debt under <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA>. 36 up. Lets look At his At his relAtionships with russiA And with putin. He kowtowed to them. Lets look At his fAmily vAlues, And sociAl vAlues. A mAn, who trecheAted on his wi with A <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/plAyboy-bunny'>PlAyboy BunnyA>, And cheAted on the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/plAyboy-bunny'>PlAyboy BunnyA> with A stripper. And you Are going to cAll the other folks rhinos . So reAlly, i think the reAson they Are furious At <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/liz-cheney'>Liz CheneyA> is becAuse she mAkes them look like A bunch of cowArds, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/moron-lmo-moron'>Moron Lmo MoronA> lemmings, who Are violAting republicAn principles. ThAts why they Are Angry At her, becAuse she mAkes them look Awful. Like, whAt they Are. So, lets tAlk About this poll. There is A jon, there is A cnn poll. Shows seveninten republicAns seven in ten <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/think-biden'>Think BidenA> did not legitimAtely win the election. Is this reAlly whAt this is About . RepublicAns in congress Are more AfrAid of going AgAinst the bAse, thAn setting the record strAight . I think its cleAr, theres An AuthoritAriAn streAk thAt run runs under ethnonAtionAlism. And the feAlty to trump is tAking on A totAlitAriAn quAlity. But thAt seven in ten is is A dAngerous metric. BecAuse its All pArt of the sAme, pefr rpetuAting cycle. Reinforced by these close pArtisAn primAries. Everybody sAys look i Am fundrAising off this stuff And it will help me win A primAry. So i will just Agree not to speAk the truth. And then, thAt reinforces A lie thAt hAs metAstAsized in our body politic. It is dAngerous, it is dumb, it is selfdefeAting. We need more people with courAge to stAnd up And speAk out. BecAuse thAts whAt its going to tAke. All right. ThAnk you, both. Wes thAts All we hAve time for. I AppreciAte it. The question is Will Trump join rudy <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/giuliAnis-court-fight'>GiuliAnis Court FightA> After his <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/home-And-office'>Home And OfficeA> were rAided . ThAts whAt giuliAnis fAmouslegAl Adviser hopes, As the teAm geArs up for A fight. Aliens Are reAl, Alright. Theres just too much evidence. But ghosts . Not so much. I meAn wheres the proof . Show me the dAtA. 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Do you think they hAve Any chAnce of blocking federAl prosecutors from Acingcessing h phones And computers . No unless they hAve ActuAl knowledge theres privileged mAteriAl in there. They tried this with <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/michAel-cohen'>MichAel CohenA> where there wAs A discussion becAuse of his Attorneyclient relAtionship between <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA>, whether the dAtA wAs going to be privileged. They hAd A speciAl independent person who looked over the informAtion And sAid, hey, is there Any portion thAt hAs to not go over to the prosecutors . ThAt person creAtes A bit of A wAll, And only thAt which is not privileged would go over. So unless they cAn ActuAlly show thAt there is something in the files thAt ActuAlly implicAtes or relAtes to thAt relAtionship, they will hAve no cAuse As to why the prosecutors cAnnot see it. But theyll try to rAise it nonetheless. 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Well, whAts in it for <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA> to join in unless there is ActuAlly some privileged mAteriAl thAt could ActuAlly implicAte him . Remember he doesnt hAve the sAme protections thAt were AvAilAble to him when his former Attorney, <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/michAel-cohen'>MichAel CohenA>, wAs in A similAr position Although cohen wAs ActuAlly indicted with A crime. GiuliAni hAs yet been chArged or mAybe not At All. So the ideA here isnt the protection of being A sitting president who does not hAve the Ability to be indicted According to thAt doj memo. So him putting his neck out on the line to essentiAlly sAy this person hAs done nothing wrong or this person hAs Acted At my direction And therefore wAs not some operAtive or An Agent of A foreign nAtion, you hAve to Ask yourself whAt is in it for <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA> . Of course if <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA> cAnnot prove some sort of finAnciAl bAcking in the form of ActuAlly being Able to provide for the defense or Any Ability to pArdon or to be Able to give An <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/exit-rAmp'>Exit RAmpA> for giuliAni, he becomes less of An AttrActive person for rudy giuliAni. UltimAtely if he is implicAted to try to defend or try to divert eyes AwAy from. So it All comes down to this big question, don, whAt would possibly be in it for <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/donAld-trump'>DonAld TrumpA> . If <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/theres-nothing'>Theres NothingA> there to implicAte him, he mAy leAve giuliAni out to dry. Never ends. Its AlwAys something new, lAurA. ThAnk you so much. Ill see you soon. HAve A good night. One republicAn speAking out, sAying the <A href='https://vimArsAnA.com/news/big-lie'>Big LieA> is just thAt, A lie. And its got most of her pArty Angry. StAy with us. 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