Chief executive and cofounder of the fashion and Good American launched in 2016 with khloe kardashian. She is a founder of sheaporter label scams alongside chloes sister kim. Works are good only do what i know from my experience. The honest truth is i did not set out to create a company deeply rooted in principles of inclusivity and diversity. I set out to make a company right for me. I speak with emma about her rise to the top, how she measures success and why diversity remains elusive in the world of fashion. Thank you for joining us on bloomberg. Thank you for having me. It is so exciting. You represent so much for so many people. All businesses you touched turned to gold. Did you ever think you would be such a success . No. Most of the business as i touched early on did not turn to gold. I love the idea of overnight success and i would love to continue to perpetuate that myth but i have just done a lot and there has been a lot of trial and error along the way. I have done every job imaginable from the paperwork route when i was 12 to working in shops, starting things less successful, starting things with medium success. It has been a long journey. Now i am starting to see a type of success that is great. You know, i was always prepared, and when opportunity came along i was ready to work for it. There is that old adage of a lot of hard work. I really put the time in, i think. Francine did you always want to be an entrepreneur . Emma no. I never knew what an entrepreneur was. If you wouldve asked me as a kid i mean, i came from east london and i did not know anyone who had their own business. Everyone i knew went to work to pay their bills with usually very little joy in it. So even the idea of doing something that felt purposeful or meaningful or something you enjoyed really was not part of my understanding. I tried really hard to get close to what it is that i love, the fashion business. But i didnt ever, ever think about starting my own thing. I think it actually came out of a necessity. I was like, who is going to employ me and pay me what i think i deserve . And i left the company because i was, like, they are just not paying me properly, so i will just have to pay myself [laughs] francine age 24. That was the determination of making something. Emma do you know what it was . I felt like i was adding a lot of value. And i think so many people through their careers have this feeling, right, i am adding a lot of value and im not being renumerated for what i bring to the table. That feeling became so strong in me. But what do you do . At 24 you dont really have many options. I did what a lot of people do. I went to a company and tried to do my best at the position i was given. And thankfully somebody saw that and decided, ok, may be will set this girl up on her own. I talk to so many young people that i employ or people trying to get noticed. I honestly think that is such amazingly good advice. Because no one is ever going to look at you to do the next thing unless you are excelling where you are today. And so sometimes just buckling down and doing the absolute best job of wherever you are is the best way to get ahead. Francine but then actually making the step of leaving and setting up on your own, you have to be brave and it is not always easy. Emma no, it wasnt always easy. I remember the first time i got a little bit of backing and they said you will be in charge of your own pnl. And i thought, fantastic. I wrote it down and went home and googled it. What is pnl . [laughs] i didnt know what i didnt know, therefore i had to go for it and learn fast. And fail fast. And i think i have done throughout my career i have not made the best choices every time, but i think being part of a good entrepreneur is knowing when things are not going right and knowing what you dont know. And i have surrounded myself with the right people continuously. Francine so what is the biggest mistake you have learned from . Emma i think the biggest mistake was probably when i had my first agency, itb. I was killing it in london. So there was this idea that the company was completely exploitable. I went to the u. S. , opened an office in new york, that office went well, then i opened it in the late and i then i opened it in los angeles, and i failed miserably. Underinvested, did not bring the right people in, thought whatever i was doing would translate, and it didnt. I learned that the hard way by dragging people there and having to close it. There is nothing like a bit of embarrassment to humble the soul. [laughter] i was like, you know, go back. I literally had to pack my own office back up. So that was a fantastic learning. But, again, i never let it break my spirit. I really truly took those learnings. When i started my Second Company in l. A. , i was like, okay, this is where i need to do something different. So i literally packed up my family and went and moved to l. A. I knew if i was going to do something that would be successful, i needed to do it myself, i needed to be in the country and give it my absolute all. Francine so is that also giving time to understand the market . It was difficult to do it from not being in the city . Emma yeah, being incountry, being part of the fabric of that culture has been really important, especially for my business Good American, that is really about what is happening at the moment, like where are we in society as women, where is fashion . And i think that has been really important to be where it is all happening. Francine that is a bold move, actually, selling denim to americans. [laughter] emma it really was. Nobody needs more bluejeans, lets be honest. I actually doubted myself when we started. Again, coming to a business with mission and purpose at the heart of what we do is what sets us apart. And so i think there are so many brands. But how do consumers make choices these days . Right now we make our choices based on what we believe in, what we feel is important, what we want our children to see. I am a mother of four. So i know only too well that i dont want my daughters wasting time thinking about how much they weigh, what they look like. And they think that fashion has done a terrible job of reinforcing a really unrealistic beauty ideal. And so with Good American, the whole premise of the brand was to say, we are going to makes clothes for women, we will let women make their choices and hopefully we will take some of that pain out of what it means to be left out of the conversation or not represented in fashion. We have done that pretty well i think. Francine you have this idea of inclusivity, of making women feel good. Who do you talk about it with first . Emma funnily enough, my husband. [laughter] because i think we are both entrepreneurs. It is natural for me to bat any idea backwards and forwards with him. But i have worked for years in the fashion business. So i have been part of the problem. I have seen firsthand how some fashion businesses make women feel. And i think there is one thing, being very vocal and being an instagram activist and talking about something, there is a difference in putting where your money where your mouth is and trying to do something about the problem. And that is what i did with that business, how do i take everything that i have learned and actually do the opposite . And i think that as a young, black female entrepreneur, the only thing i could do was what i know from my experience. The honest truth is i did not set out to create a company that was deeply rooted in principles of inclusivity and diversity, i set out to make a company that was right for me and my friends, and i knew that, if i have a problem, chances are somebody else does. I think that is where so many businesses are created, when you are solving a problem that is real for you and therefore real for the consumer. Francine is there a danger that some entrepreneurs look at numbers too much and look for a gap in the market . Emma it is very true. That is one way to approach things. For me, i go with my gut. Gut instinct tells me a lot. I tend not to go against my gut. I would be lying if i said i did run some numbers. Nobody makes 19 sizes of anything without thinking, i reckon i can sell them somewhere along the line. But i definitely think so much more of what i have done throughout my career has been in this monster a feeling i have had, in response to a feeling i have had, and then acting on that feeling. Francine were you surprised how many other people felt like you . Emma yeah. [laughter] honestly, it is one of those things that, on paper Good American has been such a massive success. If you wind back to day one, 1 million on day one. 9 00 i was a hero. By 11 00 i had no stock left and everyone was like, you have no idea what you are doing, do you . I was like, actually, i do not. In a way, that was my first lesson from what it means to be excellent from the Customer Experience point of view. Because i just started emailing people. I was like, how long do i think people will wait . Turns out not that long. Certainly not as long as it was going to take me to make stock. [laughter] francine who were you talking to . Sellers or customers . Customers, or both. Can you help me get more fabric . Will you wait eight weeks for a pair of jeans . Somewhere in that, it all worked out. What people respond to is brands that have authenticity, and there is a level of honesty that is needed. I went and said, you know what, we have no idea how popular and how much this was going to chime with customers, and if you can just be patient, we are going to get you something. Hands up. We know we messed up. And we dont want to disappoint you. And there is a part of that honesty that really chimed with people. They knew we were not feeding the line. It was clearly not written by pr, because i could not afford pr at that point. [laughter] francine were you signing it emma . Emma emma, x, how i speak to my mum or something. [laughter] francine coming up, emma grede on her attempt to break one of the last taboos in fashion and how success is making her reassess what it means to be an entrepreneur. Francine emma grede has made a personal fortune by founding inclusive and progressive clothing companies. Good american was the biggest denim launch in history when it made 1 million in sales on its first day. She tells me about her success and the challenges that remain across the industry. Has fashion done it hasnt done enough when it comes to inclusivity and diversity, but has it done something in the last five to 10 years . Emma its interesting because fashion, as quick as it is to change, like in the kind of aesthetic, it is difficult to change a system, right . And i think that comes down to who makes decisions. And the people that make decisions in fashion, dont typically look like me. They arent typically women all the time. When we look at who is at the helm on the biggest high street players, it tends to be the same type of people. And so i honestly think there is a lot of work to be done. Progress has definitely happened. You only have to look at the last new york fashion week, which is the biggest and most commercial, to see that there is so much tokenism around what inclusivity really means. And i think that, especially when it comes to size, we are back where we were 20 or 30 years ago when you would have one single black model that would walk down the catwalk. Now we are in the same situation where it is less than 3 of models that came down the catwalk were above a size 12. I mean, a size 12 is like less than average. There is so much work to be done there. Its almost like size is almost the last allowed taboo. We are allowed to disclude people because of their size. And it is really crazy. Francine i was reading something that people feel like rubbish when they look at this stuff because they dont feel represented, and they feel there is something wrong with them. Emma that is the whole reason i started the brand. You know, you go back seven years ago, i was pregnant with my second child, a girl, and i felt that deeply, like how much time and effort you can spend, and waste time. To me, its like if you take out some of that worry and the strife about how much we think about our looks and instead put our energy into saying i need a pay raise, i think i should be doing Something Else with my life, part of it was, what happens if you shift and change the paradigm of how people see themselves . And, you know, it is a really trite sentence, but representation really matters. When you see a version of yourself in something, there is a level of acceptance. That is what i wanted to do, just level the Playing Field and say you know what, we all look different, we all are different, and that is ok. That is not what we should be thinking about. We should be thinking about equal pay. Like, there are other things we should be using our time for as women. Lets just get an equality going with men. That means throughout the workplace, throughout all the industries. Honestly i feel like the media has such a huge impact on us, not only just fashion media, but at large. We need to see better representation everywhere in society. Francine is that why you are doing dragons den . Emma you asked me earlier, did i think about being an entrepreneur . I honestly just never thought about being an entrepreneur. But as i got more successful, i thought a lot about what it means to be an entrepreneur. They talk about being really small at the top. But is not really small at the top. It is minuscule. It is the same people doing the same deals, giving each other money, who all typically went to one of five or six schools. Because i am on shark tank in the u. S. The idea of dragons den, that you can be an entrepreneur with seemingly little background and absolutely no access to funding, and walk on and get a check to do something that means something to you and can mean something for your family, i am, like, why wouldnt you . It wasnt so long ago i was out fundraising. If i can be a small part of somebodys journey that would not usually get the opportunity, to me it makes so much sense. It is not just about women of color. If you didnt have the means or the education to know anything differently than getting up and going to work every day, that doesnt mean you cant have a successful business. I am walking proof of that, right . I left school when i was 16 years old. To me it is about leveling the Playing Field. I love the idea of being seen on tv and people having that idea that they can be successful if they just get an opportunity. Francine is entrepreneurship in the u. K. Different to the u. S. . In the u. S. There is almost a badge of honor of trying and failing, of trying again, of starting again. [laughter] i dont know if there is a stigma in the u. K. , that people are less bold. Emma i dont think they are less bold. I think there is more, you know, we are different here. We dont celebrate it in the same way. I find that really difficult to say, because i feel like i am so celebrated, especially where im from. Like, people in london are so nice to me. I turned up at this office and two girls, to me and they are, like, emma, we love you high five. I think things are shifting. What i am all about is celebrating people. It doesnt all work out, but that is part of life. I think we have to be more honest with ourselves about what it takes and how hard it is. Francine it is hard because you need to build a team around you, you need funding. Emma oh, yeah. Francine there is a little bit of luck. What have you found hardest . Emma probably the funding piece. Because i think without the right background and circles around you, access is really difficult. I raised my first check from my clients, because i had built a business in fashion media, so i had lots of clients. The only rich people i knew were clients of mine that had been paying me retainers. For me that was the easiest way. I was, like, hi, remember me, would you like to give me 3 million . Most of them said no, but a couple said yes. So i think just knowing where to go in the beginning. They are the barriers most people face. Once you are in it, i think it is so much about the journey, like none of this stuff happens like it does on social media. And i think just knowing that you are on a journey. And i think just knowing that actually, i honestly think the best way to start a business is with no money. You dont need to go out and raise tons of finances, you need to figure out what am i creating, where is my audience, and what am i uniquely good at . Because when you figure out what youre good at, you know who else you need around you to make something really work. Francine kris jenner was part of your journey. Emma yes, very much so. Francine how did that shape the entrepreneur you are . Emma i think i have been really lucky to be surrounded by so many incredible entrepreneurs, starting with my clients, also my husband, being around people like kris, and having access and watching some brilliant people as i grow up. Just even on the tv. Really soaking that up. I am one of those people that can learn from anything. I have read books about being an entrepreneur before i really knew what one was. So i really am someone that will take from any situation that you let me. Francine coming up, emma grede tells me why diversity is a superpower and what shes doing to try and improve access and opportunity. Personalized Financial Advice from ameriprise can do more than help you reach your goals. I can make this work. It can help you reach them with confidence. No wonder more than 9 out of 10 of our clients are likely to recommend us. Ameriprise financial. Advice worth talking about. Francine emma grede is perhaps best known as the Founding Partner of skims along with kim kardashian. The shapewear brand was valued at 4 billion last year. I continued the conversation by asking emma about the business and her commitment to supporting diversity and black owned companies. Emma skims is also huge. Did you ever think what do you call it, an underwear shaping company . Emma yes, underwear, solutionwear. Skims has grown so unbelievably. And, you know, that is Kim Kardashians company, it was her idea from the outset. I honestly believe that we never thought that it would just be one thing. We always thought about it as being this huge company that would do a lot of things well. But, again, that company was based on just doing one product really, really well. I think that is testament to any great company. We had so much focus in the beginning. We were like here is what we are going to do, we are going to make superior shapewear in every single size and every single color, and it worked out incredibly well. Francine also selling to men. When is the right time to grow or go into a slightly Different Branch . Emma so interesting, because in Good American, the first time we ever thought of going into another category was because customers asked us to. And i think it is a smart way to think about your growth and your development in a business. You really have to listen. You cannot take that commentary, like does the good things. Because your customers will tell you what you need to hear and they will also tell you what you dont want to hear. It is like a big fat mirror. That is one of the things with social media that is so exceptionally important in business right now, because it is a reflection of everything you do and a reflection of your customer base. And if you are listening carefully enough, the data will tell you things. And all you need to do is tune into that. When i think about category expansion, it really is in regards to or in relation to what customers are asking me for, and we make those decisions based on that. Francine how do you build a team that can also say, no, emma, this is not a great idea . Emma that is a great question. I think i spend about 25 of my time hiring. I will take speculative meetings even if i do not have a position available, because you are only as good as your team. To do what i do, you have to surround yourself with experts, like people that are really good at what they do. And part of that is being able to stand up to you and you being able to listen. When i think about myself as a leader, i really lead with empathy because i need people to say to me, that is a bad idea, or based on my experience. Because my experience is limited. Francine do you think it is different being a leader in 2024 than it was in 2004 . Emma 100 , because the workforce has changed immeasurably. Right . If we think postpandemic, also the generation we are dealing with right now, it is entirely different. And you have to create a company that can succeed with the workforce it has at its disposal. Francine younger emma i think younger people have a different expectation of their life and work and how those two things split together. And, like it or not, covid changed the working environment forever. And you either adapt or you die. I might have a certain opinion about how i want people to come into a space or business, but at the end of the day you have to work with where the culture is at. Im not here to fight the culture. I am, like, ok, it is what it is. How do we work to maximize this . Because at the end of the day, we all want the same thing. Francine how do you spot a good entrepreneur on dragons den . How do you decide whether you are all in . Emma i am so personality driven. Of course, a good idea is a good idea and white space is a white space. But if i meet someone that, like, just does something to me, i feel it immediately. Francine like, fire in the belly . How would you describe it . Emma sometimes it is just that mad passion. I could get excited about an Origami Company if someone comes to me like im that person. [laughter] i respond to that because that is who i am. I also really respond to the fact that i am seeing a bit of yourself, knowing someone has not got another opportunity, im like, i will have a crack, i will have a go at you. Francine what is emma grede going to do in five years . [laughter] emma i dont know. Lie down . Francine take a break for one second. [laughter] emma no, it is true, i will find Something Else. You know, i am really focused on a lot of my nonprofit work these days. I am the chairwoman of an Incredible Organization called the fifteen percent pledge, which is really focused on creating some semblance of balance in the world of blackowned businesses, figuring out how they can show up in retail with more balance. And i honestly believe that anyway i can use my voice, my influence, and the knowledge that i built over this time for good is a good use of my energy. Francine why is it so underfunded still . Emma you know, it is so interesting, because it is about access. I think about this all the time, talent is fairly evenly distributed, opportunity isnt. It is about leveling the Playing Field. We come back to that same idea, who gets to be an entrepreneur, who gets to make decisions . I believe the more we can open that up, the better it is for everybody. I have proven in my businesses that diversity actually is a superpower. The more people you have at the table, the more customers you can serve. Is not just about being holier than thou or giving someone an opportunity that does not deserve it. It is actually about being able to service as many customers as you can. And the more minds you have around the table that reflect your customer base, the better. Francine emma grede, thank you so much for joining us today. Emma thank you so much. Starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant. Thats a different story. With the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. Earn unlimited 1. 5 cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. Make more of whats yours. When i was your age, we never had anything like this. With the chase ink business unlimited card. What . Wifi . Wifi that works all over the house, even the basement. The basement. So i can finally throw that party. And invite shannon barnes. Dream do come true. Xfinity gives you reliable wifi with walltowall coverage on all your devices, even when everyone is online. Maybe well even get married one day. I wonder what i will be doing . Probably still living here with mom and dad. Fast reliable speeds right where you need them. Thats walltowall wifi on the xfinity 10g network. [birds singing] [record hiss and pop] david this is, uh, my Kitchen Table and also my filing system. Over much of the past three decades, i have been an investor. [applause] the highest calling of mankind, i