as he's always said, labour say he won't commit to anything that cannot be funded in future. so that's, i guess, a sort of clarification from labour there just to kind of calm anyone who might have heard that and had any concerns. of course, there is another huge political race going on over the atlantic and last night we saw the first tv debate between joe atlantic and last night we saw the first tv debate betweenjoe biden and donald trump. let's get some more on that, i am joined by democratic strategist and former presidential campaign strategist to the republican party. thank you both very much for being here on bbc news. laura, ifi very much for being here on bbc news. laura, if i can start with you, we have seen a lot of reaction to joe you, we have seen a lot of reaction tojoe biden�*s performance described by some as panic. what would you say, what is your response to what you have seen? i say, what is your response to what you have seen?— you have seen? i would call it disappointment. _ you have seen? i would call it disappointment. this - you have seen? i would call it disappointment. this was - you have seen? i would call it disappointment. this was an l disappointment. this was an opportunity for president biden to catch up in the swing state polls, in which he is a few points behind. he missed that opportunity. he stepped onto the stage looking to allay fears about his age and in fact, it managed to reinforce them. that is deeply disappointing but democrats are undeterred. winning this race with voters who are understanding and knowing thatjoe biden�*s ages are concerned will now be their task over the next several months. they need to make this a debate about policy in the future of the country and they will have to cut through the noise, even with those concerns hanging over the campaign. ithink those concerns hanging over the campaign. i think that is about persuading the voters and reminding them of the threat and the nature of donald trump. which we did also see on display last night, although it has been obscured because of biden�*s underperformance. putting the spotlight back on donald trump and on his erratic nature is going to beat thejob of on his erratic nature is going to beat the job of democrats moving forward so that voters can see the clear differences between their economic foreign policy and their temperament. find economic foreign policy and their temperament-— economic foreign policy and their temperament. economic foreign policy and their temerament. �* . ., ., temperament. and laura come as a republican. — temperament. and laura come as a republican. do — temperament. and laura come as a republican, do you _ temperament. and laura come as a republican, do you think— temperament. and laura come as a republican, do you think the - temperament. and laura come as a republican, do you think the trumpj republican, do you think the trump team will actually want to joe republican, do you think the trump team will actually want tojoe biden to stay if team will actually want to joe biden to stay if they see team will actually want tojoe biden to stay if they see him as a potentially easier challenge rather than any more youthful candidate that might suddenly be brought in? that seems to be much harder, that is more _ that seems to be much harder, that is more of— that seems to be much harder, that is more of a — that seems to be much harder, that is more of a parlor game been an actuai— is more of a parlor game been an actual reality and i know that that will continue to be in the conversation over the coming days as a result— conversation over the coming days as a result of— conversation over the coming days as a result of biden underperforming, but it— a result of biden underperforming, but it is— a result of biden underperforming, but it is simply not realistic. the effect _ but it is simply not realistic. the effect of — but it is simply not realistic. the effect of the matter is that biden won resoundingly all of the democratic primaries and his job won resoundingly all of the democratic primaries and hisjob now will be _ democratic primaries and hisjob now will be to— democratic primaries and hisjob now will be to convince democratic voters — will be to convince democratic voters to _ will be to convince democratic voters to come back into the tent and to— voters to come back into the tent and to once — voters to come back into the tent and to once again vote for him. he did himseif— and to once again vote for him. he did himself no favours last night, but there — did himself no favours last night, but there are still a number of months — but there are still a number of months to— but there are still a number of months to go and the task of persuading those voters i would contend — persuading those voters i would contend is easier for him then for donald _ contend is easier for him then for donald trump to go and get voters who voted — donald trump to go and get voters who voted for biden in 2020 to punch the ticket _ who voted for biden in 2020 to punch the ticket for him. so it is going to be _ the ticket for him. so it is going to be very— the ticket for him. so it is going to be very close race and we will see how — to be very close race and we will see how both campaigns proceed as the months go on.— see how both campaigns proceed as the months go on. donald trump being described as making _ the months go on. donald trump being described as making statements - the months go on. donald trump being described as making statements that l described as making statements that were not verified, repeating falsehoods, what is the response from the republicans and those on the campaign that you are hearing from? , , , ., from? the republicans are gleeful that trum- from? the republicans are gleeful that trump could _ from? the republicans are gleeful that trump could get _ from? the republicans are gleeful that trump could get on _ from? the republicans are gleeful that trump could get on stage - from? the republicans are gleeful that trump could get on stage andj that trump could get on stage and project this image of strength and sound as if he never left the white house. 0ver sound as if he never left the white house. over the past four years he has been conducting rallies, standing behind podiums and do you think the same tone he did when he was president. that is what you hear from the far right faction of the party, that has dwindled inside, actually, we have empirical evidence of that. but they still have all the power. this election is about the moderates, about those seemingly independently minded voters who are undecided sitting in about six or seven swing states. what we know after last night is that republicans feel very confident in their chances to kickjoe biden out of the white house. in 2020, trump was ousted largely because of his mishandling of the pandemic. this time he was able to make claims last night that joe biden is the one who created inflation, he was able to use absurd phrases like blackjobs. he was even able to get away with making claims that there are afterbirth abortions that there are afterbirth abortions that a former governor of virginia, he said this twice, was for after birth abortions and those would happen again if democrats reinstated row versus wade, thatjoe biden said he would do if you were given a second term. i think the challenge is not only immense, it is intense now forjoe biden. i do not see it being possible for him. i think this is... i think republicans believe that trump is their best chance again to kick outjoe biden and everybody, both parties need to be very concerned aboutjen is the end about women. these two camps, after the performances of both parties last night, are not only feeling completely discouraged, they may just decide to stay home. so many american women and members of gen z may decide to stay home this november, and that is a huge problem for both parties. find november, and that is a huge problem for both parties— for both parties. and laura, i know ou are for both parties. and laura, i know you are saying _ for both parties. and laura, i know you are saying that _ for both parties. and laura, i know you are saying that joe _ for both parties. and laura, i know you are saying that joe biden - for both parties. and laura, i know you are saying that joe biden will. you are saying thatjoe biden will continue, but you know there is already a lot of talk amongst senior voices thatjoe biden should step down, make way for a younger candidate. that could take the fight more strongly to donald trump. there is a relatively short window, isn't there, if that is going to happen? there is, and it has been a relatively— there is, and it has been a relatively few hours since the debate — relatively few hours since the debate and i would underscore that there _ debate and i would underscore that there is— debate and i would underscore that there is always talk like this. if i had a _ there is always talk like this. if i had a dollar for every democratic strategist— had a dollar for every democratic strategist that was panicking after the first— strategist that was panicking after the first misstep i would be a very rich womah — the first misstep i would be a very rich woman. the reality is that the democrats — rich woman. the reality is that the democrats are going to have to adjust — democrats are going to have to adjust and what was a difficult race has now— adjust and what was a difficult race has now become a step harder. that means— has now become a step harder. that means we _ has now become a step harder. that means we are retrenching, it means redoubiihg _ means we are retrenching, it means redoubling our efforts to ensure that we — redoubling our efforts to ensure that we are breaking through the media _ that we are breaking through the media noise and talking about the issues _ media noise and talking about the issues. and that is difficult to do, but it— issues. and that is difficult to do, but it is— issues. and that is difficult to do, but it is hot— issues. and that is difficult to do, but it is not impossible. it also means, — but it is not impossible. it also means, we _ but it is not impossible. it also means, we knew going in that these were candidates that are historically not beloved by the electorate. so this was going to be an election — electorate. so this was going to be an election where weaknesses were highlighted. i think the key is going — highlighted. i think the key is going to _ highlighted. i think the key is going to be putting that spotlight back on— going to be putting that spotlight back on donald trump and the tremendous risks that he will, that voters _ tremendous risks that he will, that voters are — tremendous risks that he will, that voters are taking and putting him back irr— voters are taking and putting him back in the — voters are taking and putting him back in the white house. economic policy— back in the white house. economic policy alone, this is someone who underscored his decision last night to raise _ underscored his decision last night to raise tariffs, which would mean he heating — to raise tariffs, which would mean he heating average american families in he heating average american families ih their— he heating average american families in their pocketbook... if he heating average american families in their pocketbook. . ._ in their pocketbook... if there is so much at _ in their pocketbook... if there is so much at stake _ in their pocketbook... if there is so much at stake with _ in their pocketbook... if there is so much at stake with donald i in their pocketbook... if there is - so much at stake with donald trump doing well, there putting pretty much neck and neck in the polls, is it not incumbent on the democratic party leadership to look for a candidate that could actually manage this campaign and take the fight of more strongly to donald trump? we have seen huge levels of criticism, much stronger levels of criticism then one might normally see against joe biden's performance. you then one might normally see against joe biden's performance.— joe biden's performance. you seem very attached _ joe biden's performance. you seem very attached to _ joe biden's performance. you seem very attached to that _ joe biden's performance. you seem very attached to that outcome, - joe biden's performance. you seem very attached to that outcome, and | joe biden's performance. you seem| very attached to that outcome, and i cannot _ very attached to that outcome, and i cannot i_ very attached to that outcome, and i cannot. i understand that is the media _ cannot. i understand that is the media conversation right now, and that this _ media conversation right now, and that this expression, as if changing candidates — that this expression, as if changing candidates was something that was going _ candidates was something that was going to _ candidates was something that was going to be easy to do or that any other— going to be easy to do or that any other candidate would somehow be more _ other candidate would somehow be more miraculously able to overcome the structural impediments that are in this— the structural impediments that are in this electorate. the fact of the matter— in this electorate. the fact of the matter is— in this electorate. the fact of the matter is that we see opposition candidates, whether you are talking about _ candidates, whether you are talking about labour doing damage to the tories _ about labour doing damage to the tories ih _ about labour doing damage to the tories in the uk, whether you're talking _ tories in the uk, whether you're talking about the far—right party in france _ talking about the far—right party in france on — talking about the far—right party in france on the steps of president macron's— france on the steps of president macron's legacy. in the united states— macron's legacy. in the united states we see the same thing, pretending that there is a miracle candidate — pretending that there is a miracle candidate that could come in and save _ candidate that could come in and save these electorates from the realities — save these electorates from the realities of the economy right now, ithink— realities of the economy right now, i think is— realities of the economy right now, i think is a — realities of the economy right now, i think is a fool's aaron. this is something _ i think is a fool's aaron. this is something where president biden and his team _ something where president biden and his team and the democratic party and the _ his team and the democratic party and the leaders within it are going to have _ and the leaders within it are going to have to— and the leaders within it are going to have to retrench and regroup and re—message. to have to retrench and regroup and re-message-— to have to retrench and regroup and re-message. obviously, we have no articular re-message. obviously, we have no particular views _ re-message. obviously, we have no particular views on _ re-message. obviously, we have no particular views on any _ re-message. obviously, we have no particular views on any of _ re-message. obviously, we have no particular views on any of these, - re-message. obviously, we have no particular views on any of these, we j particular views on any of these, we are just putting forward questions that are arising publicly in many parts of the media in the last few hours. if i could just bring you in, obviously, it has also been reported for a long time that voters on republican and democratic sides are quite polarised. and actually the people that matter are a relatively small group of people in swing states. how quickly will we get a sense of what their reaction is to this debate and how might that affect how the republican campaign continues? �* ii' ~ , continues? after 2016, i believe that all americans _ continues? after 2016, i believe that all americans should - continues? after 2016, i believe that all americans should take l continues? after 2016, i believe i that all americans should take post with a grain of salt. the polls really lead us astray back then. 0ne really lead us astray back then. one thing we ought to also remember as americans is that there is an antiestablishment streak that is very much well and alive every four years. it is how donald trump came to power in 2016. americans love something new, we get that chance every four years and we typically take it every eight. in modern presidential history we have never seen a rematch of a former and a current like this. that already made for a very different stage last night. going into last night, biden already knew he had an uphill climb to make people show up to vote for him. but what he was counting on it was getting people to show up to vote against donald trump. after last night, i think that became that much harder. we stood in this moment where we are so much more technologically connected to the ballot box than ever before, and one thing is true. people can seat with their own two eyes through clips that come right through their phone, through streaming digital sources, that show them howjoe biden did last night. i do believe that yes, media has caused some trouble in our american politics in the ecosystem. but after what i witnessed last night, i am shocked and dismayed that the democrats think it is a goodidea that the democrats think it is a good idea to run this candidate. both candidates are octogenarians, when you have the retirement age coast—to—coast to being anywhere between 61 and 67. this is a moment in which it is historic and the democrats have to behave in that manner. if they do not choose to replace this entire ticket,... they should be prepared to lose this november. should be prepared to lose this november-— should be prepared to lose this november. . ., . november. ok, we will have to leave it there, november. ok, we will have to leave it there. thank _ november. ok, we will have to leave it there, thank you _ november. ok, we will have to leave it there, thank you both _ november. ok, we will have to leave it there, thank you both very - november. ok, we will have to leave it there, thank you both very much. i it there, thank you both very much. back now to the election here. we are going to turn to the conservative campaign. their campaign is focusing on education today — with a claim that a labour government would mean fewer nursery places, and bigger class sizes in many schools. 0ur correspondent helen catt is travelling with the conservative campaign. the message today from the conservatives is on education, so we are off to teesside to visit a school and a college. rishi sunak will be stressing some of the conservatives' education plans, so the policies that we know they've outlined in their manifesto include banning mobile phones during the school day, rolling out 30 hours of free childcare a week to everyone with children over nine—months—old, and other things like working with schools and local authorities to improve school attendance. so they will be pushing those policies. they are also, at the same time, continuing on that tax theme that you heard from susan there, which is one of the messages that they are very keen to keep on pushing home right up until polling day, will be focusing on attacking labour's plans to put vat on independent school fees. again, suggesting that that is going to increase class sizes. labour says it will not. bridget phillipson, the shadow education secretary, has called that desperate nonsense. but both parties are pointing to analysis that was done by the institute for fiscal studies about how many children might leave the private secto