nigel farage says he want to be a candidate for prime minister in five years' time. right now, his party is promising to cut the nhs england waiting list to zero in two years. how is that possible? and the two child benefit cap — which both the conservatives and labour will keep — will plunge half a million more children into relative poverty ,according to new figures., according to new figures. welcome to newsnight, where we bring you interviews and election insight live every weeknight. our political panel tonight is conservative peer lord ed vaizey. and the boss of electricity company ecotricity, dale vince, who will support labour at this election. he's donated money to labour, the greens and lib dems in the past. we'll hearfrom them in a moment. first, nick, take ouraudience through what mr farage was promising today and why merthyr tydfil? as you say the key word is contract, nigel farage says it is not a manifesto, because he says manifestos are associated with the established parties and he says they lie. he has two aims, first saying what they would do and highlighting their aims that show how the two main parties in their eyes have failed. immigration, freeze nonessential immigration and leave the european convention on human rights. slash wasteful government spending, identifying 91 billion in savings. big tax cuts, you won't pay income tax until you earn £20,000 a year. nigel farage is not talking about prime minister. he said keir starmer will be prime minister at the end of the election. he is talking of forming a bridgehead in opposition. creating a big national movement as he calls it so he can vie for prime minister in 2029. he knows his best hope for reform uk is to get a handful of mps in the election. the bigger aim is to smash the conservative party to such an extent that the conservative party would turn to him, nigel farage, as their saviour. the idea after that is not that nigel farage turns to the conservative party, it is the conservative party, it is the conservative party, it is the conservative party turns to nigel farage. conservative party turns to nigel faraae. �* , , ., . farage. and why did they launch in merth r farage. and why did they launch in merthyr tydfil? — farage. and why did they launch in merthyr tydfil? the _ farage. and why did they launch in merthyr tydfil? the message - farage. and why did they launch in merthyr tydfil? the message they| merthyr tydfil? the message they want to net merthyr tydfil? the message they want to get across _ merthyr tydfil? the message they want to get across is _ merthyr tydfil? the message they want to get across is reform - merthyr tydfil? the message they want to get across is reform uk i merthyr tydfil? the message they i want to get across is reform uk does notjust want to get across is reform uk does not just take votes from the conservative party, but from the labour party, so go to wales. nigel farage said wales has had a labour government for a long time. his predecessor party, the brexit party came second in the old seat of in 2019. we mentioned the seats. merthyr tydfil and aberdare. the new and you can see the candidates on the bbc web—site. here's nigel farage speaking at his "contract" launch this afternoon. and we want to have an absolutely radical rethink of the way in which our public services are run and, yes, that does include the national health service. it's been very, very difficult to have any conversation about the nhs over the course of the 25 years that i have been involved in politics without someone pointing _ and screaming, "you want to privatise it". all we want is an nhs that is free at the point of delivery that actually works and how we get there, frankly, i don't think most people could give a damn about. let's talk to the co—deputy leader of reform uk, ben habib. thank you for talking to our audience on newsnight. your promise to wipe out the 7.5 million cases on the nhs waiting list in england in two years. can you explain how? the --rincial two years. can you explain how? tue: principal mechanism two years. can you explain how? tte: principal mechanism is to offer tax relief at the basic rate of tax for three years to all front line staff. that would incentivize front line staff to stay in theirjobs. 0ver staff to stay in theirjobs. over the last year 15 to 20,000 doctors have left the nhs. it is like trying to fill a bath which has a hole in it. ., ., , ., , ., it. how does that bring the waiting list to zem- _ it. how does that bring the waiting list to zero. if _ it. how does that bring the waiting list to zero. if you _ it. how does that bring the waiting list to zero. if you have _ it. how does that bring the waiting list to zero. if you have more - list to zero. if you have more staff, list to zero. if you have more staff. you — list to zero. if you have more staff, you deal _ list to zero. if you have more staff, you deal with - list to zero. if you have more staff, you deal with the - list to zero. if you have more l staff, you deal with the waiting list. the other thing is to use the nonprofit sector of the medical fraternity to treat those who can't be treated in the nhs. we have other policies as well. for example, forgiving student debt for students who stay in the nhs for up to ten years. every year they would have a proportion of their debt forgiven. and the fourth policy, which i was amazed to find when i first discovered this, there is a cap in the uk on how many nurses and doctors we can train each year. we would remove that cap. it is a multiplicity of things that we would do. ., ., , �* , ., multiplicity of things that we would do. ., ., ,�* ., multiplicity of things that we would do. ., ., , �* ., do. that doesn't get you to, taking the waiting — do. that doesn't get you to, taking the waiting list _ do. that doesn't get you to, taking the waiting list from _ do. that doesn't get you to, taking the waiting list from 7.5 _ do. that doesn't get you to, taking the waiting list from 7.5 million - do. that doesn't get you to, taking the waiting list from 7.5 million to | the waiting list from 7.5 million to zero in two years.— the waiting list from 7.5 million to i zero in two years._ why zero in two years. what doesn't. why don't ou zero in two years. what doesn't. why don't you answer— zero in two years. what doesn't. why don't you answer that _ zero in two years. what doesn't. why don't you answer that question - don't you answer that question first? t5 don't you answer that question first? , ., ., ,., first? is doing what the government is doinu first? is doing what the government is doing which _ first? is doing what the government is doing which is _ first? is doing what the government is doing which is doing _ first? is doing what the government is doing which is doing nothing. - first? is doing what the government is doing which is doing nothing. no, | is doing which is doing nothing. no, the real question i'm asking you, that doesn't get you from over 7.5 million. if you're losing 15 to 20,000 doctors a year, because they're not paid enough or taking home enough pay, you cannot tackle the waiting list. you have to make it pay for nurses and doctors. we all stood on the streets clapping the nhs. but what dewint do was give the nhs. but what dewint do was give the nhs. but what dewint do was give the nhs fund line staff what they deserve. this what the health think—tank staff says, many staff work in the private seconder and the nhs and you talk of spare capacity in the nhs. they say private sector capacity is scarce. because a patient can't be seen on the nhs doesn't mean the private sector has the capacity. doesn't mean the private sector has the capacity-— the capacity. when i want a private appointment. _ the capacity. when i want a private appointment. i— the capacity. when i want a private appointment, i have _ the capacity. when i want a private appointment, i have no _ the capacity. when i want a private appointment, i have no problem i appointment, i have no problem getting one. do appointment, i have no problem getting one-— appointment, i have no problem caettin one. ., , getting one. do you not believe the health think-tank _ getting one. do you not believe the health think-tank the _ getting one. do you not believe the health think-tank the king's - getting one. do you not believe the health think-tank the king's fund l health think—tank the king's fund when they say private sector capacity is scarce. share when they say private sector capacity is scarce.— when they say private sector capacity is scarce. are they saying ou take capacity is scarce. are they saying you take no _ capacity is scarce. are they saying you take no steps _ capacity is scarce. are they saying you take no steps to _ capacity is scarce. are they saying you take no steps to addressing . capacity is scarce. are they saying i you take no steps to addressing the shortage. t’m you take no steps to addressing the shortaae. �* . r' you take no steps to addressing the shortaae. �* ., ,~' ,, you take no steps to addressing the shortaae. �* . ,, . you take no steps to addressing the shortaue. �* ., y., ., , ., shortage. i'm asking you a question. rather than — shortage. i'm asking you a question. rather than you _ shortage. i'm asking you a question. rather than you asking _ shortage. i'm asking you a question. rather than you asking me _ shortage. i'm asking you a question. rather than you asking me a - rather than you asking me a question. rather than you asking me a question-— rather than you asking me a question. rather than you asking me a cuestion. ~ ., �* ., question. what you're saying and i find this discourse _ question. what you're saying and i find this discourse in _ question. what you're saying and i find this discourse in politics - question. what you're saying and i find this discourse in politics and l find this discourse in politics and public policy making. what find this discourse in politics and public policy making. what testing our public policy making. what testing your policies? _ public policy making. what testing your policies? no _ public policy making. what testing your policies? no the _ public policy making. what testing your policies? no the discourse i public policy making. what testing i your policies? no the discourse that every journey _ your policies? no the discourse that every journey is _ your policies? no the discourse that every journey is so _ your policies? no the discourse that everyjourney is so demanding - your policies? no the discourse that everyjourney is so demanding you i everyjourney is so demanding you never take a step to challenging the it is a income hand. the point what is they're trying to say is you can't deal wit. we are saying what we will do is stem the outflow of staff from the nhs, and deliver more staff from the nhs, and deliver more staff back into the nhs. let me seak. if staff back into the nhs. let me speak- if you — staff back into the nhs. let me speak. if you can _ staff back into the nhs. let me speak. if you can do _ staff back into the nhs. let me speak. if you can do both - staff back into the nhs. let me speak. if you can do both those thins speak. if you can do both those things you _ speak. if you can do both those things you will _ speak. if you can do both those things you will treat _ speak. if you can do both those things you will treat the - speak. if you can do both those things you will treat the causes| speak. if you can do both those i things you will treat the causes of illness. the other thing, the other elephant in the room. trio t illness. the other thing, the other elephant in the room.— illness. the other thing, the other elephant in the room. no i am going to pause you. _ elephant in the room. no i am going to pause you, because _ elephant in the room. no i am going to pause you, because i'm _ elephant in the room. no i am going to pause you, because i'm asking i elephant in the room. no i am going| to pause you, because i'm asking the question. to pause you, because i'm asking the ruestion. ., �* ., question. you're not letting me answer. question. you're not letting me answer- i— question. you're not letting me answer. i really _ question. you're not letting me answer. i really am, _ question. you're not letting me answer. i really am, you - question. you're not letting me answer. i really am, you keep. answer. i really am, you keep answering _ answer. i really am, you keep answering with _ answer. i really am, you keep answering with a _ answer. i really am, you keep answering with a question. i answer. i really am, you keep answering with a question. to answer. i really am, you keep- answering with a question. to get to zero and believe me people would love fit you could, i'm asking if it is real is tick. it would be 73,000 cases being dealt with every week when there isn't the capacity, the hospital beds, and according to the ifs, the money that you're promising is not enough, their words, to eliminate. is not enough, their words, to eliminate-— is not enough, their words, to eliminate. the 17 billion comes in tax relief- — eliminate. the 17 billion comes in tax relief. it _ eliminate. the 17 billion comes in tax relief. it is _ eliminate. the 17 billion comes in tax relief. it is not _ eliminate. the 17 billion comes in tax relief. it is not enough. i eliminate. the 17 billion comes in tax relief. it is not enough. the i tax relief. it is not enough. the other thing _ tax relief. it is not enough. the other thing that _ tax relief. it is not enough. the other thing that we _ tax relief. it is not enough. the other thing that we would i tax relief. it is not enough. the other thing that we would do i tax relief. it is not enough. the other thing that we would do is | other thing that we would do is cutback immigration and we have had a massive burden put on all public services as a result of the rampant immigration that we have had. you wouldn't cut _ immigration that we have had. you wouldn't cut on _ immigration that we have had. you wouldn't cut on immigrants that work on the nhs?— on the nhs? what we are doing is... correct? proposing _ on the nhs? what we are doing is... correct? proposing a _ on the nhs? what we are doing is... correct? proposing a tax _ on the nhs? what we are doing is... correct? proposing a tax on - on the nhs? what we are doing is... correct? proposing a tax on people, | correct? proposing a tax on people, on employers _ correct? proposing a tax on people, on employers an additional- correct? proposing a tax on people, on employers an additional increase j on employers an additional increase in national insurance on employers who employ foreign workers, except for those who work in the nhs. you also want what _ for those who work in the nhs. you also want what you call a pay patriotic curriculum.- also want what you call a pay patriotic curriculum. that teaches them the truth _ patriotic curriculum. that teaches them the truth about _ patriotic curriculum. that teaches them the truth about british i patriotic curriculum. that teaches them the truth about british [is i them the truth about british lis tri. that we had —— history that we had a fantastic empire. that english language was exported to the betterment of the the law and all the technology and infrastructure and capability that we produced in the industrial revolution was also exported for the betterment of other people. that is a starting point. getting rid of the notion that the english language needs to be decolonised. getting risk of critical race theory that if you're white you are racist. that has to be ditched, including transgender ditched, including tra nsgender ideology ditched, including transgender ideology being taught. share ditched, including transgender ideology being taught. are you sa in: ideology being taught. are you saying shameful _ ideology being taught. are you saying shameful episodes i ideology being taught. are you saying shameful episodes in i saying shameful episodes in britain's past would get taught? taste britain's past would get taught? we can britain's past would get taught? - can teach that, but it must be done in context. i went to speak at the sixth form of a politics class when i was stand standing in a by—election and asked how who thought national wealth of the uk was born out of slave trade and two thirds of hands went up and it is a false notion. this country shut down the slave trade and spent a lot of money shutting it down across the globe. that isn't taught. we have to stand up for the united kingdom and we have got to teach our children to be proud of the united kingdom. tt be proud of the united kingdom. ifi can use the words from the manifesto launch, our children must be taught about their heritage. which children are you talking about? the about their heritage. which children are you talking about?— are you talking about? the heritage i have are you talking about? the heritage i have talked _ are you talking about? the heritage i have talked about. _ are you talking about? the heritage i have talked about. which - i have talked about. which particular— i have talked about. which particular children? - i have talked about. which particular children? you're i have talked about. which i particular children? you're a british citizen _ particular children? you're a british citizen your - particular children? you're a british citizen your heritage | particular children? you're a | british citizen your heritage is particular children? you're a i british citizen your heritage is the history of british isles.— history of british isles. including the history _ history of british isles. including the history of — history of british isles. including the history of the _ history of british isles. including the history of the the _ history of british isles. including the history of the the empire? i history of british isles. including i the history of the the empire? yes and of which _ the history of the the empire? ta; and of which we should be proud and the contribution we have made to the globe, including standing alone against nazi germany. st paul's had winston churchill down as a white supremacist, until people like me shouted about it. it is an affront to our cultural context that you could class churchill as anything other than a national hero. that was in st paul's — other than a national hero. that was in st paul's cathedral, _ other than a national hero. that was in st paul's cathedral, nothing i other than a national hero. that was in st paul's cathedral, nothing to i in st paul's cathedral, nothing to do what is happening in schools. that is happening across the united kingdom. b. that is happening across the united kinudom. �* �* , ., kingdom. a british historian said, i asked him for— kingdom. a british historian said, i asked him for his _ kingdom. a british historian said, i asked him for his reaction - kingdom. a british historian said, i asked him for his reaction too i kingdom. a british historian said, i j asked him for his reaction too what you had written, he said, striving for balance in histories i illiterate, this is not economics, it is about fomenting division to win votes. it is about fomenting division to win votes-— it is about fomenting division to win votes. , ., ., win votes. garbage. it is the notion of diversity — win votes. garbage. it is the notion of diversity that _ win votes. garbage. it is the notion of diversity that is _ win votes. garbage. it is the notion of diversity that is the _ win votes. garbage. it is the notion of diversity that is the frame - win votes. garbage. it is the notion of diversity that is the frame work i of diversity that is the frame work that government has put in place to champion and celebrate ethnic minorities and transgender ideology and that sort of thing, over and above and largely to the detriment of the majority of the people in this country. it is a kind of form of reverse racism. that is the thing that needs to be got rid of. we would get rid of dei and we would require all people are recognised to be equal. require all people are recognised to be eaual. . ~ ,, , require all people are recognised to beeaual. . , . �* be equal. thank you very much. ben habib, the deputy — be equal. thank you very much. ben habib, the deputy leader— be equal. thank you very much. ben habib, the deputy leader of - be equal. thank you very much. ben habib, the deputy leader of reform. nick, those policies, who do you think them appeal to?— nick, those policies, who do you think them appeal to? they're well known policies. _ think them appeal to? they're well known policies. many _ think them appeal to? they're well known policies. many are - known policies. many are controversial and they seem to be striking a chord with some voters, because the reform uk vote is ticking up across a number of opinion polls. later this is week, we are going to see that boris johnson will be sending out a direct mail shot that will be landing on door mats this week and this will be seen as an attempt by a nervous conservative party to get all those people who are thinking of reform to come back to the conservative. boris johnson thinks this was long planned. ed vaizey, you're friends with boris johnson planned. ed vaizey, you're friends with borisjohnson are you not? t with borisjohnson are you not? i like borisjohnson. i don't know if he will_ like borisjohnson. idon't know if he will call— like borisjohnson. i don't know if he will call me a friend. whatever you think— he will call me a friend. whatever you think of what happened to boris when _ you think of what happened to boris when he _ you think of what happened to boris when he was prime minister, he is electoral— when he was prime minister, he is electoral gold. what we are going through— electoral gold. what we are going through now, if boris was prime minisler— through now, if boris was prime minister would the tories have a chance — minister would the tories have a chance. people love him. do you think people _ chance. people love him. do you think people have _ chance. people love him. do you think people have forgotten i chance. people love him. do you think people have forgotten the l chance. people love him. do you i think people have forgotten the lies over pa rtygate think people have forgotten the lies over partygate and the illegal social gatherings? t over partygate and the illegal social gatherings?— over partygate and the illegal social gatherings? i think boris has a reach with _ social gatherings? i think boris has a reach with natural— social gatherings? i think boris has a reach with natural conservative i a reach with natural conservative voters _ a reach with natural conservative voters the — a reach with natural conservative voters. the people who might be debate _ voters. the people who might be debate ing whether they want to support— debate ing whether they want to support the conservative party, boris _ support the conservative party, boris reaches out to them. that is a fact, _ boris reaches out to them. that is a fact, i'm _ boris reaches out to them. that is a fact, i'm not— boris reaches out to them. that is a fact, i'm not saying it is right or wrong, — fact, i'm not saying it is right or wrong, but _ fact, i'm not saying it is right or wrong, but it is a fact. is nigel farage more conservative than conservatives? t is nigel farage more conservative than conservatives?— is nigel farage more conservative than conservatives? i don't think it is, ithink than conservatives? i don't think it is, i think is— than conservatives? i don't think it is, i think is a _ than conservatives? i don't think it is, i think is a populist. _ than conservatives? i don't think it is, i think is a populist. raising i is, i think is a populist. raising ersonal is, i think is a populist. raising personal tax — is, i think is a populist. raising personal tax threshold - is, i think is a populist. raising personal tax threshold to i is, i think is a populist. raising personal tax threshold to 20, i personal tax threshold to 20, freezing nonessential immigration, replacing the echr with a bill of rights... he replacing the echr with a bill of riahts. .. , ., replacing the echr with a bill of riahts... , ., ., , , rights... he is not a socialist but i don't rights. .. he is not a socialist but i don't think— rights... he is not a socialist but i don't think he _ rights... he is not a socialist but i don't think he is _ rights... he is not a socialist but i don't think he is a _ rights... he is not a socialist but| i don't think he is a conservative, i don't think he is a conservative, ithink_ idon't think he is a conservative, i think is— i don't think he is a conservative, i think is a — i don't think he is a conservative, i think is a populist. governments win from — i think is a populist. governments win from the centre. political parties — win from the centre. political parties win from the centre. if you're — parties win from the centre. if you're defeated at the selection that is— you're defeated at the selection that is what i will fight for the conservatives to do this time round. we have _ conservatives to do this time round. we have to — conservatives to do this time round. we have to say —— but we have to stay _ we have to say —— but we have to stay in _ we have to say —— but we have to stay in the — we have to say —— but we have to stay in the centre ground to win. nigel— stay in the centre ground to win. nigel farage said reform uk would scrap the net zero targets to save 30 billion a year. rishi sunak today was attacking labour and its costly net zero policies, what do you think? t net zero policies, what do you think? ~' , net zero policies, what do you think? ~ , ., ~ think? i think they both talk nonsense — think? i think they both talk nonsense about _ think? i think they both talk nonsense about net - think? i think they both talk nonsense about net zero. i think? | think they both talk i nonsense about net zero. they think? i think they both talk - nonsense about net zero. they don't understand — nonsense about net zero. they don't understand the — nonsense about net zero. they don't understand the topic. _ nonsense about net zero. they don't understand the topic. i— nonsense about net zero. they don't understand the topic. i don't- nonsense about net zero. they don't understand the topic. i don't think. understand the topic. i don't think they care — understand the topic. idon't think they care to— understand the topic. i don't think they care to understand _ understand the topic. i don't think they care to understand the - understand the topic. i don't think they care to understand the topicl they care to understand the topic they care to understand the topic they are — they care to understand the topic they are trying _ they care to understand the topic they are trying to _ they care to understand the topic they are trying to find _ they care to understand the topic they are trying to find votes i they care to understand the topic they are trying to find votes in i they are trying to find votes in cheap— they are trying to find votes in cheap politics _ they are trying to find votes in cheap politics. if— they are trying to find votes in cheap politics.— cheap politics. if you look at voters across _ cheap politics. if you look at voters across europe, i cheap politics. if you look at voters across europe, in i cheap politics. if you look at voters across europe, in the european elections recently, there has been, maybe you would even concede, a backlash against the greens and various european nations. there has been an uptick in right-wing _ there has been an uptick in right—wing votes, - there has been an uptick in right—wing votes, that i there has been an uptick in right—wing votes, that is. there has been an uptick in right—wing votes, that is al there has been an uptick in- right—wing votes, that is a fact. i don't _ right—wing votes, that is a fact. i don't think— right—wing votes, that is a fact. i don't think that _ right—wing votes, that is a fact. i don't think that is _ right—wing votes, that is a fact. i don't think that is a _ right—wing votes, that is a fact. i don't think that is a judgment i right—wing votes, that is a fact. i don't think that is a judgment on law _ don't think that is a judgment on zer0~ 50— don't think that is a “udgment on zero. , ~,, don't think that is a “udgment on zero. , i,, i, i, don't think that is a “udgment on zero. , i, i i, i, zero. 50 fewer people voting for the greens zero. so fewer people voting for the greens is a — zero. so fewer people voting for the greens is a judgment _ zero. so fewer people voting for the greens is a judgment on _ zero. so fewer people voting for the greens is a judgment on what? - zero. so fewer people voting for the greens is a judgment on what? i - greens is a judgment on what? i don't know. if you look at the economics _ don't know. if you look at the economics behind _ don't know. if you look at the economics behind net - don't know. if you look at the economics behind net zero, l don't know. if you look at the - economics behind net zero, there is no rationale, — economics behind net zero, there is no rationale, no _ economics behind net zero, there is no rationale, no logic— economics behind net zero, there is no rationale, no logic in— economics behind net zero, there is no rationale, no logic in saying - economics behind net zero, there is no rationale, no logic in saying it. no rationale, no logic in saying it is expensive _ no rationale, no logic in saying it is exoensive and _ no rationale, no logic in saying it is expensive and we _ no rationale, no logic in saying it is expensive and we can't - no rationale, no logic in saying it is expensive and we can't afford i no rationale, no logic in saying it. is expensive and we can't afford it. for every— is expensive and we can't afford it. for every pound _ is expensive and we can't afford it. for every pound we _ is expensive and we can't afford it. for every pound we spend - is expensive and we can't afford it. for every pound we spend on- for every pound we spend on renewable _ for every pound we spend on renewable energy _ for every pound we spend on renewable energy we - for every pound we spend on renewable energy we get - for every pound we spend on renewable energy we get 2.5| for every pound we spend on- renewable energy we get 2.5 times more _ renewable energy we get 2.5 times more jobs — renewable energy we get 2.5 times more jobs than _ renewable energy we get 2.5 times more jobs than twice _ renewable energy we get 2.5 times more jobs than twice the _ renewable energy we get 2.5 times more jobs than twice the gdp - renewable energy we get 2.5 times i more jobs than twice the gdp growth we get _ more jobs than twice the gdp growth we get if— more jobs than twice the gdp growth we get if we — more jobs than twice the gdp growth we get if we spent _ more jobs than twice the gdp growth we get if we spent that _ more jobs than twice the gdp growth we get if we spent that same - more jobs than twice the gdp growth we get if we spent that same poundi we get if we spent that same pound on fossii— we get if we spent that same pound on fossil fuels. _ we get if we spent that same pound on fossil fuels.— on fossil fuels. what you think of reauardin on fossil fuels. what you think of regarding net _ on fossil fuels. what you think of regarding net zero? _ on fossil fuels. what you think of regarding net zero? we - on fossil fuels. what you think of i regarding net zero? we remember david cameron when he was the leader... he talked about cutting the green... i leader... he talked about cutting the green- - -_ the green... i think it is a win-win- _ the green... i think it is a win-win- i _ the green... i think it is a win-win. i understand - the green... i think it is a win-win. i understand in| the green... i think it is a - win-win. i understand in terms of win—win. i understand in terms of the transition, how people want to use this _ the transition, how people want to use this as— the transition, how people want to use this as a wedge issue. the tories — use this as a wedge issue. the tories have _ use this as a wedge issue. the tories have a brilliant mp in robert hall tories have a brilliant mp in robert halt front— tories have a brilliant mp in robert hall front who come in to freeze fuel hall front who come in to freeze fuet duty— hall front who come in to freeze fuel duty for ten years which was not net _ fuel duty for ten years which was not net zero policy. i support the tower— not net zero policy. i support the lower emissions are sown in london, ithink— lower emissions are sown in london, i think sadiq — lower emissions are sown in london, i think sadiq khan made a good case atrout— i think sadiq khan made a good case about the _ i think sadiq khan made a good case about the quality of the air. it is expensive — about the quality of the air. it is expensive to get from where we need to be but _ expensive to get from where we need to be but it _ expensive to get from where we need to be but it is a win—win in terms of technology, in terms of getting leadership on this technology in terms _ leadership on this technology in terms of— leadership on this technology in terms of saving lives. the leadership on this technology in terms of saving lives.— leadership on this technology in terms of saving lives. the obr said it will cost the _ terms of saving lives. the obr said it will cost the economy _ terms of saving lives. the obr said it will cost the economy twice - terms of saving lives. the obr said it will cost the economy twice as i it will cost the economy twice as much _ it will cost the economy twice as much to— it will cost the economy twice as much to stick— it will cost the economy twice as much to stick with _ it will cost the economy twice as much to stick with fossil- it will cost the economy twice as much to stick with fossil fuels i it will cost the economy twice as much to stick with fossil fuels is| much to stick with fossil fuels is to transition _ much to stick with fossil fuels is to transition to _ much to stick with fossil fuels is to transition to green _ much to stick with fossil fuels is to transition to green energy. . much to stick with fossil fuels is i to transition to green energy. they said this _ to transition to green energy. they said this about _ to transition to green energy. they said this about four _ to transition to green energy. they said this about four months - to transition to green energy. they said this about four months ago i to transition to green energy. they said this about four months ago in| to transition to green energy. theyi said this about four months ago in a report— said this about four months ago in a report to _ said this about four months ago in a report to rishi — said this about four months ago in a report to rishi sunak. _ said this about four months ago in a report to rishi sunak. iiriti�*hait- said this about four months ago in a report to rishi sunak.— report to rishi sunak. what about the cost to _ report to rishi sunak. what about the cost to consumers _ report to rishi sunak. what about the cost to consumers right - report to rishi sunak. what about the cost to consumers right now. report to rishi sunak. what about. the cost to consumers right now over the cost to consumers right now over the next five years, ten years? there should be no cost. that is 'ust not there should be no cost. that is just not true- — there should be no cost. that is just not true. what _ there should be no cost. that is just not true. what is _ there should be no cost. that is just not true. what is heat - there should be no cost. that is| just not true. what is heat pump cost? �* i, i, i, , ,, cost? i'm not advocating heat pumps. i'm cost? i'm not advocating heat pumps. i'm advocating — cost? i'm not advocating heat pumps. i'm advocating green _ cost? i'm not advocating heat pumps. i'm advocating green energy - cost? i'm not advocating heat pumps. i'm advocating green energy from - cost? i'm not advocating heat pumps. i'm advocating green energy from the | i'm advocating green energy from the wind and _ i'm advocating green energy from the wind and the — i'm advocating green energy from the wind and the sun. _ i'm advocating green energy from the wind and the sun. find— i'm advocating green energy from the wind and the sun.— wind and the sun. and what've there is not enough? _ wind and the sun. and what've there is not enough? but _ wind and the sun. and what've there is not enough? but there _ wind and the sun. and what've there is not enough? but there is, - wind and the sun. and what've there is not enough? but there is, there i is not enough? but there is, there are wa s is not enough? but there is, there are ways we _ is not enough? but there is, there are ways we can — is not enough? but there is, there are ways we can sort _ is not enough? but there is, there are ways we can sort this, - is not enough? but there is, there are ways we can sort this, by - is not enough? but there is, there i are ways we can sort this, by having an overcapacity— are ways we can sort this, by having an overcapacity of— are ways we can sort this, by having an overcapacity of green _ are ways we can sort this, by having an overcapacity of green energy - are ways we can sort this, by having an overcapacity of green energy and using _ an overcapacity of green energy and using the _ an overcapacity of green energy and using the energy— an overcapacity of green energy and using the energy in _ an overcapacity of green energy and using the energy in a _ an overcapacity of green energy and using the energy in a smart- an overcapacity of green energy and using the energy in a smart way. . using the energy in a smart way. heat— using the energy in a smart way. heat pumps— using the energy in a smart way. heat pumps are _ using the energy in a smart way. heat pumps are about _ using the energy in a smart way. heat pumps are about how - using the energy in a smart way. heat pumps are about how we i heat pumps are about how we decarhonise _ heat pumps are about how we decarbonise home _ heat pumps are about how we decarbonise home heating. i heat pumps are about how we | decarbonise home heating. we heat pumps are about how we - decarbonise home heating. we can make _ decarbonise home heating. we can make the _ decarbonise home heating. we can make the gas— decarbonise home heating. we can make the gas we _ decarbonise home heating. we can make the gas we need _ decarbonise home heating. we can make the gas we need grass - decarbonise home heating. we can make the gas we need grass and l decarbonise home heating. we cani make the gas we need grass and we have an _ make the gas we need grass and we have an abundance _ make the gas we need grass and we have an abundance of _ make the gas we need grass and we have an abundance of that _ make the gas we need grass and we have an abundance of that in - make the gas we need grass and we have an abundance of that in our- have an abundance of that in our country. — have an abundance of that in our country. we _ have an abundance of that in our country, we have _ have an abundance of that in our country, we have enough- have an abundance of that in our country, we have enough to - have an abundance of that in our. country, we have enough to make have an abundance of that in our- country, we have enough to make all the gas _ country, we have enough to make all the gas we _ country, we have enough to make all the gas we need _ country, we have enough to make all the gas we need.— let's talk about the two child benefit cap — which both the conservatives and labour will keep, and the greens and lib dems have pledged to remove. well, according to new figs out today, it will plunge half a million more children into relative poverty over the next parliament. labour's manifesto commits to a child poverty strategy, but not to lifitng the cap. last week i asked their shadow chief secretary to the treasury darren jones about this. you even have suella braverman calling for the cap to be abolished and nigel farage, it would seem on the itv debate tonight, yet you, labour, won't promise to do that? well, that's because the difference between the conservatives and reform and labour is our policies are fully funded and fully costed. that has to be what people expect from any party trying to form the government at this election. and, look, would i like the economy to be in a better position? of course i would. would i like a labour government to be coming into a country where we've got plenty of tax revenues to be able to spend on all the things that we would like to do as the labour movement? of course i would. of course i would. but the fact of the matter is that we will unherit the worst financial situation that a party has inherited since the second world war, we are going to have to do the hard yards to turn that around, and that means that, yes, we have got those six steps that we want to get started with immediately, but it will take some time to turn the country around. i think the people at home recognise the fact that we can'tjust click our finger and change that immediately on day one. our plan for change today and our manifesto sets out how we are going do that. yeah, i'm sure voters do recognise that, and they may also recognise that you are making a choice, you could fully fund and fully cost lifting the two child benefit cap and you are making the choice not to do that. that is right, isn't it? well, these are trade—offs. we have made the commitment not to increase taxes, because the tax burden is already too high on people as a consequence of the conservatives' record in government. that means there is not then additional revenue to pay for some of our additional priorities. but these are the trade—offs that any party has to make if they want to be in government. let's talk to the institute for fiscal studies' tom waters — and let's show this graph of yours to our audience. i wonder if you could talk us through it. i wonder if you could talk us through it— i wonder if you could talk us throu~h it. ~ i, �* i wonder if you could talk us throu~h it. i i, �* i, through it. what we're looking at the fraction _ through it. what we're looking at the fraction of _ through it. what we're looking at the fraction of children _ through it. what we're looking at the fraction of children that - through it. what we're looking at the fraction of children that are l through it. what we're looking at| the fraction of children that are in poverty, using the government's powder official relative poverty definition over time. if you look at the middle grey line, the overall rate has been fairly stable for quite a while. for those in smaller families, with two or fewer children, the red line, you can see it is starting to decrease. this is being offset by biggerfamilies. that green line you can see, the fraction of children in bigger families in poverty, that has been steadily rising and is now about 46%. steadily rising and is now about 4696. �* i, i i, i, , 4696. and that will continue to rise into the next _ 4696. and that will continue to rise into the next parliament _ 4696. and that will continue to rise into the next parliament with - 4696. and that will continue to rise into the next parliament with it. into the next parliament with it being kept by labour and the tories. the two child limit certainly has a big impact on biggerfamilies the two child limit certainly has a big impact on bigger families and big impact on biggerfamilies and it does tend to push some families into poverty, yes. 50 does tend to push some families into poverty. yes-— poverty, yes. so what would happen if ou lifted poverty, yes. so what would happen if you lifted that _ poverty, yes. so what would happen if you lifted that benefit _ poverty, yes. so what would happen if you lifted that benefit cap? - poverty, yes. so what would happen if you lifted that benefit cap? it - if you lifted that benefit cap? it would have an immediate material impact on the families that are currently being affected by the policy. at the moment it is about 2 million children. on average they lose something in the order of io% lose something in the order of 10% of their income. that would be a pretty immediate effect on the incomes. it will pull a substantial fraction out of poverty.— incomes. it will pull a substantial fraction out of poverty. what is 1096 in terms of — fraction out of poverty. what is 1096 in terms of pounds _ fraction out of poverty. what is 1096 in terms of pounds or— fraction out of poverty. what is 1096 in terms of pounds or p _ fraction out of poverty. what is 1096 in terms of pounds or p we - fraction out of poverty. what is 1096 in terms of pounds or p we sell - in terms of pounds or p we sell something like £4300 a year. which is a significant sum for anybody. thank you very much. nick, what was the rationale in the first place for the rationale in the first place for the conservatives bringing this cap in? in the conservatives bringing this cap in? i. the conservatives bringing this cap in? i, , , i i, , the conservatives bringing this cap in? , i, in? in a sense, the cap that was introduced _ in? in a sense, the cap that was introduced in _ in? in a sense, the cap that was introduced in the _ in? in a sense, the cap that was introduced in the 2015 _ in? in a sense, the cap that was introduced in the 2015 budget . in? in a sense, the cap that was introduced in the 2015 budget is where the sort of iain duncan smith approach sort of remodelling the welfare system really met george osborne's need for cuts at the height of austerity. that is why it was introduced and obviously keir starmer has been talking about this today. keir starmer has previously talked about how he would like to get rid of this, but all the emphasis, as you soften the interview, is how they are not going to commit to that now because of what they talk about, ironclad fiscal rules but the labour leader was saying today, i'm not going to put a date on these things about when to move, but then he said, but i'm not immune from just how powerful an argument this is. a powerful an argument this is. a powerful argument that if you get rid of it, it is exactly what the ifs are talking about, it might help to alleviate child poverty. you would alleviate _ to alleviate child poverty. you would alleviate something like 11% of families overnight. what do you think the fact that at the moment, labour are keeping this, should they win the election? i labour are keeping this, should they win the election?— win the election? i think i understand _ win the election? i think i understand where - win the election? i think i understand where they i win the election? i think i l understand where they are win the election? i think i - understand where they are coming from _ understand where they are coming from in _ understand where they are coming from interms— understand where they are coming from. in terms of— understand where they are coming from. in terms of making - understand where they are coming| from. in terms of making spending pledges _ from. in terms of making spending pledges on — from. in terms of making spending pledges on things _ from. in terms of making spending pledges on things they _ from. in terms of making spending pledges on things they can't - from. in terms of making spending pledges on things they can't be - pledges on things they can't be certain— pledges on things they can't be certain they _ pledges on things they can't be certain they can _ pledges on things they can't be certain they can stick— pledges on things they can't be certain they can stick to - pledges on things they can't be certain they can stick to the - pledges on things they can't be . certain they can stick to the other -- on _ certain they can stick to the other -- on the — certain they can stick to the other -- on the other— certain they can stick to the other —— on the other side _ certain they can stick to the other —— on the other side of— certain they can stick to the other —— on the other side of the - —— on the other side of the election _ —— on the other side of the election i_ —— on the other side of the election. i have _ —— on the other side of the election. i have that - —— on the other side of the election. i have that on - —— on the other side of the| election. i have that on the —— on the other side of the - election. i have that on the other side of— election. i have that on the other side of the — election. i have that on the other side of the election, _ election. i have that on the other side of the election, if— election. i have that on the other side of the election, if labour- election. i have that on the other| side of the election, if labour win they side of the election, if labour win thev witt— side of the election, if labour win they will look _ side of the election, if labour win they will look at _ side of the election, if labour win they will look at the _ side of the election, if labour win they will look at the again - side of the election, if labour win they will look at the again and - side of the election, if labour winl they will look at the again and find it in their— they will look at the again and find it in their hearts— they will look at the again and find it in their hearts and _ they will look at the again and find it in their hearts and find - they will look at the again and find it in their hearts and find it - they will look at the again and find it in their hearts and find it in - it in their hearts and find it in the nation's _ it in their hearts and find it in the nation's bank— it in their hearts and find it in the nation's bank account - it in their hearts and find it in the nation's bank account to i it in their hearts and find it in - the nation's bank account to solve the nation's bank account to solve the problem — the nation's bank account to solve the problem because _ the nation's bank account to solve the problem because it's - the nation's bank account to solve the problem because it's a - the nation's bank account to solve the problem because it's a very. the problem because it's a very cruet— the problem because it's a very cruel poticv, _ the problem because it's a very cruel policy. it— the problem because it's a very cruel policy, it has— the problem because it's a very cruel policy, it has pushed - the problem because it's a very- cruel policy, it has pushed hundreds of thousands— cruel policy, it has pushed hundreds of thousands of— cruel policy, it has pushed hundreds of thousands of kids _ cruel policy, it has pushed hundreds of thousands of kids and _ cruel policy, it has pushed hundreds of thousands of kids and families . of thousands of kids and families into reat— of thousands of kids and families into real poverty. _ of thousands of kids and families into real poverty. when - of thousands of kids and families into real poverty. when we - of thousands of kids and families into real poverty. when we do i of thousands of kids and families i into real poverty. when we do that, it is perverse — into real poverty. when we do that, it is perverse to _ into real poverty. when we do that, it is perverse to our— into real poverty. when we do that, it is perverse to our own _ into real poverty. when we do that, it is perverse to our own economy l it is perverse to our own economy because _ it is perverse to our own economy because we — it is perverse to our own economy because we take _ it is perverse to our own economy because we take away _ it is perverse to our own economy because we take away the - it is perverse to our own economy because we take away the life - because we take away the life chances — because we take away the life chances of _ because we take away the life chances of young _ because we take away the life chances of young people - because we take away the life chances of young people and i because we take away the life - chances of young people and make it harder— chances of young people and make it harder for— chances of young people and make it harder for them _ chances of young people and make it harder for them to _ chances of young people and make it harder for them to contribute - chances of young people and make it harder for them to contribute to - chances of young people and make it harder for them to contribute to ouri harder for them to contribute to our economy, _ harder for them to contribute to our economy, and — harder for them to contribute to our economy, and of— harder for them to contribute to our economy, and of course _ harder for them to contribute to our economy, and of course we - harder for them to contribute to our economy, and of course we rely- harder for them to contribute to our economy, and of course we rely oni economy, and of course we rely on the next _ economy, and of course we rely on the next generation _ economy, and of course we rely on the next generation to _ economy, and of course we rely on the next generation to pay - economy, and of course we rely on the next generation to pay for - economy, and of course we rely on the next generation to pay for ouri the next generation to pay for our ageing _ the next generation to pay for our ageing population. _ the next generation to pay for our ageing population, you _ the next generation to pay for our ageing population, you know, - ageing population, you know, pensioners— ageing population, you know, pensioners and _ ageing population, you know, pensioners and stuff- ageing population, you know, pensioners and stuff like - ageing population, you know, | pensioners and stuff like that. these — pensioners and stuff like that. these are _ pensioners and stuff like that. these are people _ pensioners and stuff like that. these are people who - pensioners and stuff like that. these are people who we - pensioners and stuff like that. these are people who we rely| pensioners and stuff like that. i these are people who we rely on pensioners and stuff like that. - these are people who we rely on and we are _ these are people who we rely on and we are treating — these are people who we rely on and we are treating them _ these are people who we rely on and we are treating them terribly- these are people who we rely on and we are treating them terribly badly . we are treating them terribly badly in early— we are treating them terribly badly in early life — we are treating them terribly badly in early life and _ we are treating them terribly badly in early life and it _ we are treating them terribly badly in early life and it doesn't - we are treating them terribly badly in early life and it doesn't make . in early life and it doesn't make sense — in early life and it doesn't make sense. , �* i,~ in early life and it doesn't make sense. ,�* , , i, in early life and it doesn't make sense. , �* , , m sense. doesn't make sense to you? it was art sense. doesn't make sense to you? it was part of— sense. doesn't make sense to you? it was part of george — sense. doesn't make sense to you? it was part of george osborne's - sense. doesn't make sense to you? it was part of george osborne's welfare | was part of george osborne's welfare cuts, it— was part of george osborne's welfare cuts, it was— was part of george osborne's welfare cuts, it was in the manifesto in 2015 _ cuts, it was in the manifesto in 2015 it— cuts, it was in the manifesto in 2015. it included foisting the pensioners are' tv licence onto the bbc, _ pensioners are' tv licence onto the bbc, the _ pensioners are' tv licence onto the bbc, the bbc actually ended up sorting — bbc, the bbc actually ended up sorting out the welfare policy for george _ sorting out the welfare policy for george osborne and linked the free tv licence _ george osborne and linked the free tv licence to the pension credit, which _ tv licence to the pension credit, which was — tv licence to the pension credit, which was a _ tv licence to the pension credit, which was a better policy. why did ou which was a better policy. why did you sopport _ which was a better policy. why did you sopport it? — which was a better policy. why did you sopport it? i— which was a better policy. why did you support it? i voted _ which was a better policy. why did you support it? i voted for- which was a better policy. why did you support it? i voted for the - you support it? i voted for the budaet you support it? i voted for the budget and — you support it? i voted for the budget and i— you support it? i voted for the budget and i voted _ you support it? i voted for the budget and i voted for- you support it? i voted for the budget and i voted for the - you support it? i voted for the - budget and i voted for the manifesto that att— budget and i voted for the manifesto that all tory mps stood on. but dale has a _ that all tory mps stood on. but dale has a point. — that all tory mps stood on. but dale has a point, but the trouble is, as he points— has a point, but the trouble is, as he points out, the labour party have stick to _ he points out, the labour party have stick to it _ he points out, the labour party have stick to it because they have to stick— stick to it because they have to stick to— stick to it because they have to stick to these spending plans that they have — stick to these spending plans that they have announced. but i didn't support— they have announced. but i didn't support it — they have announced. but i didn't support it although i voted for it, the complications that have been put on some _ the complications that have been put on some of— the complications that have been put on some of these benefits like child benefit _ on some of these benefits like child benefit as— on some of these benefits like child benefit as well, where there is no an unbelievably complicated system. it an unbelievably complicated system. it was _ an unbelievably complicated system. it was a _ an unbelievably complicated system. it was a very simple system, everybody who had a baby cut child benefit, _ everybody who had a baby cut child benefit, but now it depends on your income _ benefit, but now it depends on your income or— benefit, but now it depends on your income or the number of children, the benefit — income or the number of children, the benefit changes and it has a lot of friction — the benefit changes and it has a lot of friction. it would be simpler if you took— of friction. it would be simpler if you took a — of friction. it would be simpler if you took a the complications and these _ you took a the complications and these arbitrary cliff edges and the welfare _ these arbitrary cliff edges and the welfare system. we these arbitrary cliff edges and the welfare system.— these arbitrary cliff edges and the welfare s stem. ~ i, i, i, i, welfare system. we are going to have a look at some _ welfare system. we are going to have a look at some of— welfare system. we are going to have a look at some of the _ welfare system. we are going to have a look at some of the front _ welfare system. we are going to have a look at some of the front pages - a look at some of the front pages right now. we will start with the daily telegraph. tories turned to johnson to counter reform back —— to counter reform. it's impossible to know if reform would keep the low tax pledge. the financial times, the left triggers alarm. the guardian, accused of cut and spend manifesto that doesn't add up. and richey and kier urged the nation to back the aces chart. front page of the daily mail, keir starmer only once votes at 16 to entrench his power. what do you think of the votes for i6—year—olds that labour would bring in? 16-year-olds that labour would bring in? i. , 16-year-olds that labour would bring in? i, , , i, keir in? have they said they would? keir starmer has — in? have they said they would? keir starmer has said _ in? have they said they would? keir starmer has said yes. _ in? have they said they would? keir starmer has said yes. i _ in? have they said they would? keir starmer has said yes. i think - in? have they said they would? keir starmer has said yes. i think it - in? have they said they would? keir starmer has said yes. i think it is i starmer has said yes. i think it is a aood starmer has said yes. i think it is a good idea- _ starmer has said yes. i think it is a good idea- i — starmer has said yes. i think it is a good idea. i thought _ starmer has said yes. i think it is a good idea. i thought it - starmer has said yes. i think it is a good idea. i thought it was - a good idea. i thought it was something _ a good idea. i thought it was something that _ a good idea. i thought it was something that the - a good idea. i thought it was something that the tories i a good idea. i thought it was. something that the tories had a good idea. i thought it was - something that the tories had said labour— something that the tories had said labour woutd — something that the tories had said labour would do. _ something that the tories had said labour would do. 16—year—olds- something that the tories had said labour would do. 16—year—olds are engaged. — labour would do. 16—year—olds are engaged. they— labour would do. 16—year—olds are engaged, they know _ labour would do. 16—year—olds are engaged, they know what's - labour would do. 16—year—olds are - engaged, they know what's happening in the _ engaged, they know what's happening in the world _ engaged, they know what's happening in the world and _ engaged, they know what's happening in the world and we _ engaged, they know what's happening in the world and we should _ engaged, they know what's happening in the world and we should give - engaged, they know what's happening in the world and we should give them i in the world and we should give them the vote _ in the world and we should give them the vote they— in the world and we should give them the vote. they have _ in the world and we should give them the vote. they have the _ in the world and we should give them the vote. they have the right - in the world and we should give them the vote. they have the right to - in the world and we should give them the vote. they have the right to do i the vote. they have the right to do a lot of— the vote. they have the right to do a lot of other— the vote. they have the right to do a lot of other things _ the vote. they have the right to do a lot of other things of— the vote. they have the right to do a lot of other things of the - the vote. they have the right to do a lot of other things of the age - the vote. they have the right to do a lot of other things of the age of. a lot of other things of the age of 16. a lot of other things of the age of to iti— a lot of other things of the age of 16. i, , i, , i, i, 16. if the conservatives do not win this election... _ 16. if the conservatives do not win this election... and _ 16. if the conservatives do not win this election... and it _ 16. if the conservatives do not win this election... and it is _ 16. if the conservatives do not win this election... and it is a - 16. if the conservatives do not win this election... and it is a big - 16. if the conservatives do not win this election... and it is a big if! i this election... and it is a big if! rishi sunak _ this election... and it is a big if! rishi sunak is _ this election... and it is a big if! rishi sunak is still _ this election... and it is a big if! rishi sunak is still saying - this election... and it is a big if! rishi sunak is still saying today | this election... and it is a big if! i rishi sunak is still saying today he is so full back grant shapps suggesting it is not likely. how long do you think you are looking at the conservative bring out of power for? it the conservative bring out of power for? . i. ,~ the conservative bring out of power for? , i, , ~' , the conservative bring out of power for? , i, ,~ , i, for? it is a huge risk depending on the science _ for? it is a huge risk depending on the science -- _ for? it is a huge risk depending on the science -- my _ for? it is a huge risk depending on the science -- my depending - for? it is a huge risk depending on the science -- my depending on i for? it is a huge risk depending on i the science -- my depending on the the science —— my depending on the size of— the science —— my depending on the size of the _ the science —— my depending on the size of the labour majority. in 97 we were — size of the labour majority. in 97 we were out _ size of the labour majority. in 97 we were out for three elections. if we were out for three elections. if we lose _ we were out for three elections. if we lose this — we were out for three elections. if we lose this one it is very important indeed that the conservative party recognises where you win _ conservative party recognises where you win elections from, you don't go and say— you win elections from, you don't go and say we _ you win elections from, you don't go and say we didn't try popper conservatives hard enough, you recognise — conservatives hard enough, you recognise that there are lots of factors — recognise that there are lots of factors why the public may not have given _ factors why the public may not have given you _ factors why the public may not have given you another mandate and you learn _ given you another mandate and you learn from — given you another mandate and you learn from that and you get straight back to _ learn from that and you get straight back to talking to britain as she is today— back to talking to britain as she is today rather than the britain you wish _ today rather than the britain you wish existed 50 years ago, which is a myth _ wish existed 50 years ago, which is a myth anyway. but wish existed 50 years ago, which is a myth anyway-— a myth anyway. but it kind of depends. _ a myth anyway. but it kind of depends. if— a myth anyway. but it kind of depends, if labour— a myth anyway. but it kind of depends, if labour wins, - a myth anyway. but it kind of depends, if labour wins, andj a myth anyway. but it kind of- depends, if labour wins, and the polls have been wrong before, but it depends on which tory mps retain their seats as to what shape the party will be. their seats as to what shape the party will be— their seats as to what shape the party will be. their seats as to what shape the -a will be. ~ , i, i, , party will be. when keir starmer was carefully laying _ party will be. when keir starmer was carefully laying his _ party will be. when keir starmer was carefully laying his plans _ party will be. when keir starmer was carefully laying his plans in _ party will be. when keir starmer was carefully laying his plans in the - carefully laying his plans in the summer of 2019, before the general election, his team were working out various scenarios of how badly labour was going to do underjeremy corbyn and what sort of labour mps there would be because that was going to be the initial stage of the electorate. so yes, you will need to work out, if you are a tory leadership hopeful, if the election doesn't go well, you are going to be thinking, how many one nation tories will be there? amale erg conservatives will be there? —— are many. because they will decide who are the two people who get onto the benefit then get the votes. iloathe benefit then get the votes. who would ou benefit then get the votes. who would you like _ benefit then get the votes. who would you like to _ benefit then get the votes. who would you like to see _ benefit then get the votes. who would you like to see is the next leader of the tory party?- leader of the tory party? well, i think... leader of the tory party? well, i think- -- i _ leader of the tory party? well, i think... i would _ leader of the tory party? well, i think... i would not _ leader of the tory party? well, i think... i would not be - leader of the tory party? well, i | think... i would not be massively upset _ think... i would not be massively upset if— think... i would not be massively upset if kemi badenoch became teader~ — upset if kemi badenoch became teader~ i— upset if kemi badenoch became leader. i don't know what the choice would _ leader. i don't know what the choice would he _ leader. i don't know what the choice would be. obviouslyi leader. i don't know what the choice would be. obviously i would want it to he _ would be. obviously i would want it to be michael gove but he is not standing — to be michael gove but he is not standing i— to be michael gove but he is not standing. i can get out of my head my constant support of michael gove as leader— my constant support of michael gove as leader of the tory party.— as leader of the tory party. maybe he could do _ as leader of the tory party. maybe he could do it _ as leader of the tory party. maybe he could do it from _ as leader of the tory party. maybe he could do it from the _ as leader of the tory party. maybe he could do it from the house - as leader of the tory party. maybe he could do it from the house of l he could do it from the house of lords. �* . i. he could do it from the house of lords. �* , i, , i, lords. but it is a party without talent now- — lords. but it is a party without talent now. that _ lords. but it is a party without talent now. that is _ lords. but it is a party without. talent now. that is fundamentally the problem _ talent now. that is fundamentally the problem i— talent now. that is fundamentally the problem-— talent now. that is fundamentally the roblem. ~' i, the problem. i think there are some fantastic candidates _ the problem. i think there are some fantastic candidates coming - the problem. i think there are some fantastic candidates coming up. - the problem. i think there are some fantastic candidates coming up. i i fantastic candidates coming up. i said to _ fantastic candidates coming up. i said to one — fantastic candidates coming up. i said to one of the candidates who might— said to one of the candidates who might get— said to one of the candidates who might get elected on a couple weeks, they should stand immediately for teader~ _ they should stand immediately for leader. , i. they should stand immediately for leader. , i, , i, they should stand immediately for leader. , i, i, a leader. they are so talented? a newly elected — leader. they are so talented? a newly elected mp? _ leader. they are so talented? a newly elected mp? person - leader. they are so talented? a newly elected mp? person of. leader. they are so talented? a. newly elected mp? person of the mature age _ newly elected mp? person of the mature age of — newly elected mp? person of the mature age of expense, - newly elected mp? person of the mature age of expense, why - newly elected mp? person of the| mature age of expense, why not? that's _ mature age of expense, why not? that's how — mature age of expense, why not? that's how low down the barrel we are. . i, that's how low down the barrel we are. , i, ~ i, , i that's how low down the barrel we are. . i, , i are. listen, who knows which tory mps are going _ are. listen, who knows which tory mps are going to _ are. listen, who knows which tory mps are going to be _ are. listen, who knows which tory mps are going to be mps - are. listen, who knows which tory mps are going to be mps after- are. listen, who knows which tory mps are going to be mps after thej mps are going to be mps after the election? — mps are going to be mps after the election? i think the supermajority message _ election? i think the supermajority message is getting through, i think there _ message is getting through, i think there will— message is getting through, i think there will be a narrowing of the polls _ there will be a narrowing of the polls closer to the election, but all of— polls closer to the election, but all of us — polls closer to the election, but all of us have seen the polls, it's become — all of us have seen the polls, it's become the opinion poll election in many— become the opinion poll election in many respects. the polls get the headlines more than the policies. there _ headlines more than the policies. there will be a range of print mps, ithink— there will be a range of print mps, i think kemi — there will be a range of print mps, i think kemi badenoch is a strong candidate, — i think kemi badenoch is a strong candidate, it feels a bit weird calling — candidate, it feels a bit weird calling out who should be leader before _ calling out who should be leader before the election. but if there were _ before the election. but if there were to — before the election. but if there were to be a leadership election, after— were to be a leadership election, after the — were to be a leadership election, after the election, which have the choice _ after the election, which have the choice have lost it... can after the election, which have the choice have lost it. . ._ after the election, which have the choice have lost it... can she warn the seat for _ choice have lost it... can she warn the seat for the return _ choice have lost it... can she warn the seat for the return of a - the seat for the return of a good friend borisjohnson? it is the seat for the return of a good friend boris johnson?— the seat for the return of a good friend boris johnson? it is all such massive speculation. _ friend boris johnson? it is all such massive speculation. i— friend boris johnson? it is all such massive speculation. i think -

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