is behind the anonymous profiles. l and, the euros or the election? what's more exciting?! joining us today, home office minister chris philp, labour's deputy campaign coordinator ellie reeves, liberal democrat munira wilson and conservative home deputy editor henry hill. this is politics live election 202a. welcome to viewers on bbc2, bbc iplayer and bbc news. so there is another major contest about to kick off later on today, it is of course the euros and scotland face germany in munich. let's have a look at some of the traditional build—up. there they are, bagpipes and all. all the scottish fans outside enjoying the sunshine there, lucky old them. in the build—up to that first match this evening. and they will be competing for prime time television of course with the general election coverage that everyone has been glued to for the last three weeks. so to kick off this programme, chris philp, what has got morejeopardy this programme, chris philp, what has got more jeopardy do you think in terms of who is going to win, the euros? ~ ., , ., euros? well, i hope england win the euros and the _ euros? well, i hope england win the euros and the conservatives - euros? well, i hope england win the euros and the conservatives win - euros? well, i hope england win the euros and the conservatives win the | euros and the conservatives win the general election. i will be taking a close interest in both, critically as my team crystal palace have four players in the squad. connor gallagher was on loan at crystal palace, southport and a half players! i'm going to be potentially supporting dan. ihla players! i'm going to be potentially sunporting dan-— players! i'm going to be potentially supporting dan. players! i'm going to be potentially su ”ortin dan. ., ., . . supporting dan. no wonder you have a bi interest supporting dan. no wonder you have a his interest in — supporting dan. no wonder you have a big interest in the _ supporting dan. no wonder you have a big interest in the euros _ supporting dan. no wonder you have a big interest in the euros while - big interest in the euros while you're out campaigning. ellie, what about for you? what is going to be more exciting in terms of competitions and in terms of the outcome? ., ., ~' �* competitions and in terms of the outcome? �* ., ., outcome? look, we're halfway through reneral outcome? look, we're halfway through general election _ outcome? look, we're halfway through general election campaign, _ outcome? look, we're halfway through general election campaign, we - outcome? look, we're halfway through general election campaign, we have i general election campaign, we have set out _ general election campaign, we have set out our— general election campaign, we have set out our manifesto, the conservatives put out their manifesto. there are three day still three _ manifesto. there are three day still three weeks to go. i expect the euros _ three weeks to go. i expect the euros wiii— three weeks to go. i expect the euros will provide quite a healthy distraction for both politicians and the public— distraction for both politicians and the public alike. but i suspect as we get _ the public alike. but i suspect as we get into the final phase of the election. — we get into the final phase of the election, voters will certainly be really. _ election, voters will certainly be really, really interested, particularly because when i speak to voters. _ particularly because when i speak to voters. so _ particularly because when i speak to voters, so many of them say they want _ voters, so many of them say they want change. voters, so many of them say they want change-— voters, so many of them say they want change. you will hope so. it is a name want change. you will hope so. it is a game of — want change. you will hope so. it is a game of two _ want change. you will hope so. it is a game of two halves, _ want change. you will hope so. it is a game of two halves, it _ want change. you will hope so. it is a game of two halves, it turns - want change. you will hope so. it is a game of two halves, it turns out, | a game of two halves, it turns out, this election and indeed all the matches being played. during the euros competition. for you, matches being played. during the euros competition. foryou, in matches being played. during the euros competition. for you, in terms of the outcome, which is more or less predictable? i of the outcome, which is more or less predictable?— less predictable? i hope to see encland less predictable? i hope to see england raised _ less predictable? i hope to see england raised the _ less predictable? i hope to see england raised the trophy, - less predictable? i hope to see england raised the trophy, my| less predictable? i hope to see - england raised the trophy, my team have ireen— england raised the trophy, my team have been told _ england raised the trophy, my team have been told categorically - england raised the trophy, my team have been told categorically i - england raised the trophy, my team have been told categorically i have i have been told categorically i have not to _ have been told categorically i have not to be _ have been told categorically i have not to be doing _ have been told categorically i have not to be doing anything _ have been told categorically i have not to be doing anything while - not to be doing anything while engtand — not to be doing anything while engtand are _ not to be doing anything while england are playing _ not to be doing anything while england are playing and - not to be doing anything while england are playing and i- not to be doing anything while england are playing and i willi not to be doing anything while l england are playing and i will be going _ england are playing and i will be going to — england are playing and i will be going to the _ england are playing and i will be going to the pub— england are playing and i will be going to the pub to _ england are playing and i will be going to the pub to watch - england are playing and i will be going to the pub to watch the i going to the pub to watch the scotland _ going to the pub to watch the scotland game _ going to the pub to watch the scotland game after - going to the pub to watch the l scotland game after canvassing tonight~ — scotland game after canvassing tonight~ most— scotland game after canvassing tonight. most of— scotland game after canvassing tonight. most of the _ scotland game after canvassing tonight. most of the british - scotland game after canvassing. tonight. most of the british public of course — tonight. most of the british public of course will _ tonight. most of the british public of course will be _ tonight. most of the british public of course will be glued _ tonight. most of the british public of course will be glued to - tonight. most of the british public of course will be glued to the - of course will be glued to the football — of course will be glued to the football and _ of course will be glued to the football and we _ of course will be glued to the football and we know- of course will be glued to the football and we know it - of course will be glued to the football and we know it is - of course will be glued to the football and we know it is a l of course will be glued to the - football and we know it is a massive passion _ football and we know it is a massive passion for— football and we know it is a massive passion for the _ football and we know it is a massive passion for the british _ football and we know it is a massive passion for the british public, - football and we know it is a massive passion for the british public, it - passion for the british public, it is why— passion for the british public, it is why the — passion for the british public, it is why the liberal— passion for the british public, it is why the liberal democrats i passion for the british public, itl is why the liberal democrats say passion for the british public, it - is why the liberal democrats say we should _ is why the liberal democrats say we should have — is why the liberal democrats say we should have at — is why the liberal democrats say we should have at least _ is why the liberal democrats say we should have at least ten _ is why the liberal democrats say we should have at least ten 328 - is why the liberal democrats say we i should have at least ten 328 premier league _ should have at least ten 328 premier league games — should have at least ten 328 premier league games every _ should have at least ten 328 premier league games every season - should have at least ten 328 premier league games every season in - should have at least ten 328 premier league games every season in our. league games every season in our manifesto — league games every season in our manifesto. �* ._ , league games every season in our marrifesto-— manifesto. always good to get bit oli in manifesto. always good to get bit policy in there _ manifesto. always good to get bit policy in there in _ manifesto. always good to get bit policy in there in terms _ manifesto. always good to get bit policy in there in terms of- manifesto. always good to get bit policy in there in terms of the - policy in there in terms of the euros. of course it was one of the considerations, i understand, the conservative candidate, particularly the calling of an early election which would clash with the euros. where is your attention going to be, henry? h where is your attention going to be, hen ? ., where is your attention going to be, hen ? . ., ., , , henry? i am going to be honest, my overall attitude _ henry? i am going to be honest, my overall attitude to _ henry? i am going to be honest, my overall attitude to football _ henry? i am going to be honest, my overall attitude to football is that. overall attitude to football is that mitchell and webb sketch. my country doesn't compete in international football but i wish any british team competing all the best. but i will be focusing on the general election, the football just kind be focusing on the general election, the footballjust kind of inevitably happens in the background. goad the footballjust kind of inevitably happens in the background. good for ou. just happens in the background. good for you- just before _ happens in the background. good for you. just before kick-off _ happens in the background. good for you. just before kick-off tonight - you. just before kick—off tonight you. just before kick—off tonight you can watch keir starmer�*s interview with nick robinson. you can see here the panorama interview. it is the latest one with nick robinson. there is the labour leader, tonight at 7:30pm on bbc one and the iplayer. you can't fit that in beforehand is a political warm up to the first football match. we are going to stick now with the politics. we are at the halfway point in the election and it is as good a time as ever to check in with the bbc�*s poll tracker. let's have a look at it here. it takes in all the latest polls. and as you can see, labour is still around 20 or so points ahead of the conservatives, as they have been for quite some time. and that lead hasn't and isn't actually changing. now, everything has been fed up into this poll because it came out this morning, the update. but there was another poll, it was quite a moment. let's see the headline in the times, reform overtake stories in poll the first time. it finds the back in for nigel farage's party at i9%, one point above the conservatives. now, it is just one poll and to put that into context in terms of the impact of reform on the ship was my collection we can now speak to a professor of political sociology at the university of bristol. welcome to you. how would you assess it? it is one pole as i said, has actually passed the conservatives? no, pollock, we can't hear you just at the moment. let's see if the sound can be... you are not muted are you at your end? no. maybe it is a problem at our end. i mightjust hold at a moment and come back to our panel and we will try and connect the line to you in just a moment. chris, it is still they are one point ahead for the first time of year. they are the official opposition, as nigel farage would like to say. i opposition, as nigel farage would like to sa . ., �* opposition, as nigel farage would liketo sa. ., �* opposition, as nigel farage would like to say-— like to say. i wouldn't say that because your _ like to say. i wouldn't say that because your tracking - like to say. i wouldn't say that because your tracking poll- like to say. i wouldn't say that because your tracking poll on | like to say. i wouldn't say that i because your tracking poll on the screen of the mo billing forehand does show the conservatives very clearly in second place but it is deeply alarming because if the votes of the people right of centre... people who want to see lower immigration, if that vote is split it will hand keir starmer a landslide majority, taxes will go up and immigration will go up as well. and it will hand him a blank cheque. so our message to people who are thinking of voting reform, flirting with the idea of nigel farage, is that i understand the temptation but it will simply hand keir starmer a landslide victory. truth? it will simply hand keir starmer a landslide victory.— landslide victory. why do you understand — landslide victory. why do you understand the _ landslide victory. why do you understand the temptation? | landslide victory. why do you - understand the temptation? what is it that is so temptation tempting about nigel farage and reform? people do want lower taxes and immigration to come down and that is what the conservatives are offering at this election and i don't think it is not in our national interest to give keir starmer a landslide victory. goodness knows what other tax rises they will be and what else he might want to do. we have seen labour government in the past do things with our manifesto. the only way we can deliver an alternative government to keir starmer is by voting conservative. only one of two people are going to be prime minister after the 4th ofjuly, keir starmer or rishi sunak stop this is nigel farage's eighth attempt to get a seat in parliament. let’s nigel farage's eighth attempt to get a seat in parliament.— a seat in parliament. let's see if we can speak — a seat in parliament. let's see if we can speak to _ a seat in parliament. let's see if we can speak to paul _ a seat in parliament. let's see if we can speak to paul it - a seat in parliament. let's see if we can speak to paul it now. - a seat in parliament. let's see if. we can speak to paul it now. paula, have they actually passed the conservative reform? i have they actually passed the conservative reform?- have they actually passed the conservative reform? i don't think ou can conservative reform? i don't think you can conclude _ conservative reform? i don't think you can conclude that _ conservative reform? i don't think you can conclude that from - conservative reform? i don't think you can conclude that from the i you can conclude that from the single pole. in that poll it is a one percentage point difference which is effectively a statistical tie and it is the only one that has shown that. there are number of polls coming in every day which is showing three or four polls coming in every day which is showing three orfour or polls coming in every day which is showing three or four or five percentage points between the conservatives and reform. so it is a psychological moment, a dramatic moment but i'm not sure we can conclude it is actually the moment that reform passed the conservatives in the campaign was white when you look at the bbc poll tracker, chris is right, it puts it about 14% in terms of support for reform but you can see it has been that support for nigel farage's party since the end of last year. so it has been growing over some time, hasn't it?- over some time, hasn't it? that's riaht, over some time, hasn't it? that's riuht, it over some time, hasn't it? that's right. it has _ over some time, hasn't it? that's right, it has been _ over some time, hasn't it? that's right, it has been growing - over some time, hasn't it? that's right, it has been growing at - over some time, hasn't it? that's right, it has been growing at the l right, it has been growing at the last six— right, it has been growing at the last six months or so and so it is kind _ last six months or so and so it is kind of— last six months or so and so it is kind of strange in some respects. he was doing _ kind of strange in some respects. he was doing deliver... it has grown a little _ was doing deliver... it has grown a little bit _ was doing deliver... it has grown a little bit more quickly since nigel farage _ little bit more quickly since nigel farage took over but still on average. _ farage took over but still on average, a little bit below the conservatives. it average, a little bit below the conservatives.— average, a little bit below the conservatives. it is all about how su ort conservatives. it is all about how support during — conservatives. it is all about how support during a _ conservatives. it is all about how support during a campaign - conservatives. it is all about how support during a campaign is - support during a campaign is actually translated into seats. chris philp mentioned again that nigel farage himself has tried seven times and failed to win a seat. how, looking at the polls as they stand now, would you think it would translate into seats for nigel farage and reform more broadly? that is a thin , farage and reform more broadly? that is a thing. no — farage and reform more broadly? trust is a thing, no one is really talking about a large number of seats for reform. nobody is saying more than one of three seats for reform. but the damage to our electoral system is done by them taking a chunk of votes across a whole range of seats. the conservative strategy was that they would be able to squeeze that boat that had been rising through the first part of this year, the conservative thought they could win it back. and through the campaign they haven't been able to do that and nigel farage coming back to the four of that party has made the task even harder. four of that party has made the task even harder-— even harder. henry, that psychological— even harder. henry, that psychological moment, l even harder. henry, that. psychological moment, that even harder. henry, that - psychological moment, that drama that pauline was referring to and i think pauline can stay with us for this discussion. do you understand that? , . , this discussion. do you understand that? , .,, this discussion. do you understand that? , ., ,., this discussion. do you understand that? , ., ., ., that? yes, politics is a narrative business- _ that? yes, politics is a narrative business. every _ that? yes, politics is a narrative business. every time _ that? yes, politics is a narrative business. every time something that? yes, politics is a narrative - business. every time something like this happens, the pulsate entirely sensibly— this happens, the pulsate entirely sensibly it is statistical error but it does— sensibly it is statistical error but it does matter. and it is not a great — it does matter. and it is not a great place for the conservative party— great place for the conservative party to — great place for the conservative party to be anyway. don't worry guys we are _ party to be anyway. don't worry guys we are only _ party to be anyway. don't worry guys we are only within the margin of error of— we are only within the margin of error of reform uk is not exacting something — error of reform uk is not exacting something that is going to calm people — something that is going to calm people down. i think the question now is— people down. i think the question now is how— people down. i think the question now is how do the conservative campaign — now is how do the conservative campaign respond to this because what i'm — campaign respond to this because what i'm hearing on the doorstep is the tories _ what i'm hearing on the doorstep is the tories best hope for getting more _ the tories best hope for getting more votes throughout this campaign is targeting the people who have not decided _ is targeting the people who have not decided which party to go to. they might— decided which party to go to. they might not— decided which party to go to. they might not like the government but might— might not like the government but might be _ might not like the government but might be persuaded to vote the tory candidate _ might be persuaded to vote the tory candidate in their seat. all the evidence — candidate in their seat. all the evidence is people who have already .one evidence is people who have already gone to _ evidence is people who have already gone to reform i'm coming back it might— gone to reform i'm coming back it might compound it and... in gone to reform i'm coming back it might compound it and. . .- gone to reform i'm coming back it might compound it and... in my own constituency — might compound it and... in my own constituency i _ might compound it and... in my own constituency i have _ might compound it and... in my own constituency i have not _ might compound it and... in my own constituency i have not found - might compound it and... in my own constituency i have not found that. l constituency i have not found that. i've spoken people on the doorstep in the last 48—hour is who have said things like i am thinking of voting reform and i have explained that in my particular seat voting for reform risks handing the seat to labour. they pretty quickly change their mind because they recognise, they do not want keir starmer running the country. when you put that to them and explain on the doorstep, quite a few of them do pretty quickly... well, let ellie respond. i few of them do pretty quickly... well, let ellie respond.- few of them do pretty quickly... well, let ellie respond. i want to come back _ well, let ellie respond. i want to come back on — well, let ellie respond. i want to come back on what _ well, let ellie respond. i want to come back on what chris - well, let ellie respond. i want to come back on what chris said - well, let ellie respond. i want to| come back on what chris said and well, let ellie respond. i want to - come back on what chris said and be crystal— come back on what chris said and be crystal clear. — come back on what chris said and be crystal clear, labour will not be putting — crystal clear, labour will not be putting up _ crystal clear, labour will not be putting up national insurance, vat or income — putting up national insurance, vat or income tax. i saw the press conference _ or income tax. i saw the press conference earlier and laura trott came _ conference earlier and laura trott came out — conference earlier and laura trott came out with this line about capital— came out with this line about capital gains tax on primary residence, absolute nonsense. labour will not _ residence, absolute nonsense. labour will not be _ residence, absolute nonsense. labour will not be doing that. it isjust nonsense — will not be doing that. it isjust nonsense from a campaign is running scared _ nonsense from a campaign is running scared because of this polling with reform _ scared because of this polling with reform i— scared because of this polling with reform. i am speaking to voters up and down _ reform. i am speaking to voters up and down the country, actually including — and down the country, actually including in your constituency, chris. — including in your constituency, chris. who _ including in your constituency, chris, who said that after 14 years of conservative government they want change _ of conservative government they want change. they are fed up. they are feeling _ change. they are fed up. they are feeling the — change. they are fed up. they are feeling the pinch of the cost of living, — feeling the pinch of the cost of living, they can't get gp appointments, they are waiting for hospital— appointments, they are waiting for hospital operations and they are fed up. hospital operations and they are fed u -. hospital operations and they are fed u . _ �* , hospital operations and they are fed u -. �* , , ., , ., , up. ellie, let's play a little bit of laura trott, _ up. ellie, let's play a little bit of laura trott, chief- up. ellie, let's play a little bit| of laura trott, chief secretary up. ellie, let's play a little bit i of laura trott, chief secretary to the treasury. she was talking about the treasury. she was talking about the secret tax rises, she put it. i have the labour manifesto here. let's just have a listen to a bit of what you have to say was white or yellow i am setting out that labour have deliberately failed to rule out 18 potential tax rises during this election campaign. in relation to each of these tax rises, labour's manifesto deliberately makes no commitment not to raise them. if he wins, it is obvious that what keir starmer wants to do is cynically claim the books he inherited are much worse than he thought, as justification for imposing tax rises that he hasn't told you about. ellie? ~ , that he hasn't told you about. ellie? . , , ., ., ellie? as i said before, we have been absolutely _ ellie? as i said before, we have been absolutely clear _ ellie? as i said before, we have been absolutely clear that i ellie? as i said before, we have been absolutely clear that they | ellie? as i said before, we have i been absolutely clear that they will been absolutely clear that they will be no increase in national insurance, income tax or vat. our manifesto is fully costed and fully funded. everything that we set out in it has been funded. for example, the 6500 new teachers that we will put in our schools, paid for by ending tax cut ellie, yes, but where there are still questions for labour. , , ., there are still questions for labour. , ., ., labour. yes, you have ruled out the headfine labour. yes, you have ruled out the headline main _ labour. yes, you have ruled out the headline main taxes _ labour. yes, you have ruled out the headline main taxes but _ labour. yes, you have ruled out the headline main taxes but there i labour. yes, you have ruled out the headline main taxes but there are i headline main taxes but there are other taxes that you have no plans to raise. the language is different. look at the manifesto, there isn't anything around capital gains tax. maybe that is right, maybe that will be an option or pension tax reform for example. perhaps closing some of the reliefs. they could be open to you. so does laura trott have a point that there are other taxes that you haven't ruled out, you don't want to rule out, you want to give yourself some space to raise money in the parliament if you win? well, she spoke about capital gains tax the pro to limit primary residence, it is a nonsense. it is a huge number and there are huge number of tax releases... you can increase capital— number of tax releases... you can increase capital gains _ number of tax releases... you can increase capital gains tax, - number of tax releases... you can increase capital gains tax, you i number of tax releases... you can increase capital gains tax, you can make and equitable with... everything that is in the manifesto is fully costed. we can put cash injection into our public services which they desperately need, our schools and hospitals because they are failing under the conservatives. and let's not forget that people are facing the highest tax burden in 70 years because of decisions that the conservative government have made was siam that labour have... you have had 14 years right, but chris lets be honest with the viewers, taxes have gone up in the conservatives.— taxes have gone up in the conservatives. . , , ., conservatives. the tax burden is at the highest — conservatives. the tax burden is at the highest level— conservatives. the tax burden is at the highest level because - conservatives. the tax burden is at the highest level because you i conservatives. the tax burden is at the highest level because you have frozen the tax threshold. so it is a bit rich for the conservatives to start talking about secret tax rises that labour have if they win the election. tax rates on working people are at the lowest levels. the tax burdens have gone up because we have to pay back the bills during covid. labour is openly saying it will increase taxes by £8 billion. the conservatives up pledging a £17 billion tax cut. there is a £25 billion tax cut. there is a £25 billion difference between the two parties. tax increases under labour and tax cuts under the conservatives.- and tax cuts under the conservatives. ~ . ., ~ and tax cuts under the conservatives. ~ . ., ,, ., conservatives. we are talking about clamin: conservatives. we are talking about clamping down _ conservatives. we are talking about clamping down on _ conservatives. we are talking about clamping down on tax _ conservatives. we are talking about clamping down on tax avoidance. i clamping down on tax avoidance. ciamping — clamping down on tax avoidance. clamping down on taxes that should have been— clamping down on taxes that should have been collected. if you do not think— have been collected. if you do not think we _ have been collected. if you do not think we should be doing that quite frankly— think we should be doing that quite frankly that is astonishing. you think we should be doing that quite frankly that is astonishing.- frankly that is astonishing. you are ro osin: frankly that is astonishing. you are proposing something _ frankly that is astonishing. you are proposing something different. i frankly that is astonishing. you are | proposing something different. you are proposing to take the tax burden to higher levels to papal public services. , ., , to higher levels to papal public services. , ., ., services. everyone up and down the count , services. everyone up and down the country. taxes _ services. everyone up and down the country, taxes are _ services. everyone up and down the country, taxes are at _ services. everyone up and down the country, taxes are at their - services. everyone up and down the country, taxes are at their highest l country, taxes are at their highest levels _ country, taxes are at their highest levels and — country, taxes are at their highest levels and he _ country, taxes are at their highest levels. and he adheres. _ country, taxes are at their highest levels. and he adheres.— levels. and he adheres. there are reasons for— levels. and he adheres. there are reasons for that. _ levels. and he adheres. there are reasons for that. we _ levels. and he adheres. there are reasons for that. we don't - levels. and he adheres. there are reasons for that. we don't want i levels. and he adheres. there are | reasons for that. we don't want to increase the _ reasons for that. we don't want to increase the burden _ reasons for that. we don't want to increase the burden on _ reasons for that. we don't want to increase the burden on working i increase the burden on working families — increase the burden on working families we _ increase the burden on working families. we have _ increase the burden on working families. we have made - increase the burden on working families. we have made clear. increase the burden on working i families. we have made clear that increase the burden on working - families. we have made clear that we would _ families. we have made clear that we would seek— families. we have made clear that we would seek to — families. we have made clear that we would seek to raise _ families. we have made clear that we would seek to raise money. _ families. we have made clear that we would seek to raise money. we - would seek to raise money. we want to close _ would seek to raise money. we want to close the — would seek to raise money. we want to close the loopholes _ would seek to raise money. we want to close the loopholes in _ would seek to raise money. we want to close the loopholes in —— - would seek to raise money. we want to close the loopholes in —— for- would seek to raise money. we want to close the loopholes in —— for oil. to close the loopholes in —— for oil and gas _ to close the loopholes in —— for oil and gas giants _ to close the loopholes in —— for oil and gas giants. we _ to close the loopholes in —— for oil and gas giants. we have - to close the loopholes in —— for oil and gas giants. we have said i to close the loopholes in —— for oil and gas giants. we have said we l to close the loopholes in —— for oil. and gas giants. we have said we will reform _ and gas giants. we have said we will reform capital— and gas giants. we have said we will reform capital gains— and gas giants. we have said we will reform capital gains tax _ and gas giants. we have said we will reform capital gains tax and - and gas giants. we have said we will reform capital gains tax and that i reform capital gains tax and that will increase _ reform capital gains tax and that will increase allowances - reform capital gains tax and that will increase allowances and i reform capital gains tax and that i will increase allowances and mean a lower— will increase allowances and mean a lower capital— will increase allowances and mean a lower capital gains _ will increase allowances and mean a lower capital gains tax _ will increase allowances and mean a lower capital gains tax bill— will increase allowances and mean a lower capital gains tax bill for- will increase allowances and mean a lower capital gains tax bill for the i lower capital gains tax bill for the majority— lower capital gains tax bill for the majority of— lower capital gains tax bill for the majority of people _ lower capital gains tax bill for the majority of people and _ lower capital gains tax bill for the majority of people and pull- lower capital gains tax bill for the majority of people and pull small| majority of people and pull small businesses _ majority of people and pull small businesses. for— majority of people and pull small businesses. for the _ majority of people and pull small businesses. forthe .1%, - majority of people and pull small businesses. for the .1%, those i businesses. forthe .1%, those billionaires, _ businesses. forthe .1%, those billionaires, who— businesses. forthe .1%, those billionaires, who are _ businesses. forthe .1%, those billionaires, who are actually l billionaires, who are actually paying — billionaires, who are actually paying a _ billionaires, who are actually paying a low— billionaires, who are actually paying a low rate _ billionaires, who are actually paying a low rate of - billionaires, who are actually paying a low rate of capital l billionaires, who are actually i paying a low rate of capital gains tax. they— paying a low rate of capital gains tax, they should _ paying a low rate of capital gains tax, they should be _ paying a low rate of capital gains tax, they should be paying - paying a low rate of capital gains tax, they should be paying more| paying a low rate of capital gains i tax, they should be paying more and paying _ tax, they should be paying more and paying their — tax, they should be paying more and paying theirfair— tax, they should be paying more and paying their fair share. _ tax, they should be paying more and paying their fair share. that- tax, they should be paying more and paying their fair share. that will- paying their fair share. that will help— paying their fair share. that will help to — paying their fair share. that will help to address _ paying their fair share. that will help to address the _ paying their fair share. that will help to address the crisis - paying their fair share. that will help to address the crisis in i paying their fair share. that will help to address the crisis in the| help to address the crisis in the health— help to address the crisis in the health service _ help to address the crisis in the health service and _ help to address the crisis in the health service and the - help to address the crisis in thej health service and the capacitor help to address the crisis in the i health service and the capacitor so we can— health service and the capacitor so we can get— health service and the capacitor so we can get people _ health service and the capacitor so we can get people up _ health service and the capacitor so we can get people up waiting i health service and the capacitor so we can get people up waiting lists| we can get people up waiting lists and get _ we can get people up waiting lists and get the — we can get people up waiting lists and get the economy— we can get people up waiting lists and get the economy moving i we can get people up waiting lists l and get the economy moving again. what _ and get the economy moving again. what is _ and get the economy moving again. what is your— and get the economy moving again. what is your view— and get the economy moving again. what is your view on _ and get the economy moving again. what is your view on tax _ and get the economy moving again. what is your view on tax argumenti what is your view on tax argument all boaters? the what is your view on tax argument all boaters?— all boaters? the most important thin is all boaters? the most important thing is the _ all boaters? the most important thing is the freeze _ all boaters? the most important thing is the freeze on _ all boaters? the most important thing is the freeze on tax. - all boaters? the most important thing is the freeze on tax. there | thing is the freeze on tax. there was cross—party consensus about income tax thresholds. they had been frozen. realwages income tax thresholds. they had been frozen. real wages went up 2.9% in the latest figures. people are paying more tax. rishi sunak is accusing labour of a pension tax. but is the result of frozen thresholds that was still full under tory plans for working age voters. labour cannot hit back on because they are having to retain frozen income tax thresholds. you will retain them _ income tax thresholds. you will retain them until _ income tax thresholds. you will retain them until 2028 - income tax thresholds. you will retain them until 2028 when i income tax thresholds. you will i retain them until 2028 when they come up for review. we retain them until 2028 when they come up for review.— retain them until 2028 when they come up for review. we will inherit a complete — come up for review. we will inherit a complete mess _ come up for review. we will inherit a complete mess from _ come up for review. we will inherit a complete mess from the - a complete mess from the conservative government if we are lucky _ conservative government if we are lucky enough to form a government. liz lucky enough to form a government. liz truss's_ lucky enough to form a government. liz truss's government crashed the economy — liz truss's government crashed the econom . ., ~ , ., economy. you will keep the frozen tax thresholds. _ economy. you will keep the frozen tax thresholds. we _ economy. you will keep the frozen tax thresholds. we would - economy. you will keep the frozen tax thresholds. we would like - economy. you will keep the frozen tax thresholds. we would like tax | economy. you will keep the frozen i tax thresholds. we would like tax to be lower but — tax thresholds. we would like tax to be lower but we _ tax thresholds. we would like tax to be lower but we will _ tax thresholds. we would like tax to be lower but we will inherit - tax thresholds. we would like tax to be lower but we will inherit a - tax thresholds. we would like tax to be lower but we will inherit a mess. | be lower but we will inherit a mess. the only— be lower but we will inherit a mess. the only thing freezing thresholds does is allow you to misrepresent what either party is doing to the electorate. why not be honest? we think the thresholds and level with the country, we need to raise income tax. , , , _,, tax. everything will be fully costed and fully funded. _ tax. everything will be fully costed and fully funded. answer - tax. everything will be fully costed and fully funded. answer the - and fully funded. answer the question- — and fully funded. answer the question. the _ and fully funded. answer the question. the economy - and fully funded. answer the question. the economy is . and fully funded. answer the question. the economy is in| and fully funded. answer the | question. the economy is in a and fully funded. answer the - question. the economy is in a mess. we are not — question. the economy is in a mess. we are not going _ question. the economy is in a mess. we are not going to _ question. the economy is in a mess. we are not going to make _ question. the economy is in a mess. we are not going to make unfunded | we are not going to make unfunded policies _ we are not going to make unfunded olicies. ., ., ., policies. thou would not be unfunded- _ policies. thou would not be unfunded. being _ policies. thou would not be unfunded. being realistic. policies. thou would not be - unfunded. being realistic involves misleadina unfunded. being realistic involves misleading the _ unfunded. being realistic involves misleading the public. _ unfunded. being realistic involves misleading the public. in - unfunded. being realistic involves misleading the public. in our- misleading the public. in our manifesto. _ misleading the public. in our manifesto, everything - misleading the public. in our manifesto, everything is - misleading the public. in our manifesto, everything is set| misleading the public. in our- manifesto, everything is set help. we have _ manifesto, everything is set help. we have to — manifesto, everything is set help. we have to be completely clear about what we _ we have to be completely clear about what we would inherit from the government. we would like taxes to be government. we would like taxes to he iowen _ government. we would like taxes to be lower. the difficulty is the economy, _ be lower. the difficulty is the economy, growth is nonexistent because — economy, growth is nonexistent because of mismanagement by the conservative party. lets because of mismanagement by the conservative party.— because of mismanagement by the conservative party. lets look at the econom . conservative party. lets look at the economy- when — conservative party. lets look at the economy. when labour _ conservative party. lets look at the economy. when labour left - conservative party. lets look at the economy. when labour left office l conservative party. lets look at the | economy. when labour left office in 2010 unemployment was about 8% and is now full percent. gdp growth in the first quarter of the year was the first quarter of the year was the joint highest the first quarter of the year was thejoint highest in the first quarter of the year was the joint highest in the g7, joint with canada. inflation is only 2% and has dropped down below the eurozone and the us. this argument is nonsense- — eurozone and the us. this argument is nonsense. inflation _ eurozone and the us. this argument is nonsense. inflation was _ eurozone and the us. this argument is nonsense. inflation was running . is nonsense. inflation was running at 11%. the rate has come down but relatively recently. growth —— across the piece has been anaemic. he mentioned going back to 2010. i want to go back to paula briefly. listening to this debate on tax, it has been going on for three weeks and the polls have not moved. does it surprise you? hot and the polls have not moved. does it surprise you?— it surprise you? not really. tax is not one of— it surprise you? not really. tax is not one of the _ it surprise you? not really. tax is not one of the top _ it surprise you? not really. tax is not one of the top issues. - it surprise you? not really. tax is not one of the top issues. they . it surprise you? not really. tax is i not one of the top issues. they are concerned — not one of the top issues. they are concerned about— not one of the top issues. they are concerned about the _ not one of the top issues. they are concerned about the nhs - not one of the top issues. they are concerned about the nhs and - not one of the top issues. they are concerned about the nhs and the i not one of the top issues. they are i concerned about the nhs and the cost of living _ concerned about the nhs and the cost of living i_ concerned about the nhs and the cost of living i know — concerned about the nhs and the cost of living. i know tax _ concerned about the nhs and the cost of living. i know tax is— concerned about the nhs and the cost of living. i know tax is part _ concerned about the nhs and the cost of living. i know tax is part of- of living. i know tax is part of that — of living. i know tax is part of that but — of living. i know tax is part of that but voters _ of living. i know tax is part of that but voters do _ of living. i know tax is part of that but voters do not - of living. i know tax is part of that but voters do not hear. of living. i know tax is part of- that but voters do not hear about it in a language — that but voters do not hear about it in a language that _ that but voters do not hear about it in a language that makes _ that but voters do not hear about it in a language that makes sense. i that but voters do not hear about it i in a language that makes sense. the polls have _ in a language that makes sense. the polls have been _ in a language that makes sense. the polls have been like _ in a language that makes sense. the polls have been like this will- in a language that makes sense. the polls have been like this will six - polls have been like this will six months — polls have been like this will six months lots— polls have been like this will six months. lots of _ polls have been like this will six months. lots of people - polls have been like this will six months. lots of people have i polls have been like this will six i months. lots of people have made polls have been like this will six - months. lots of people have made up their minds— months. lots of people have made up their minds that _ months. lots of people have made up their minds that they— months. lots of people have made up their minds that they want _ months. lots of people have made up their minds that they want to - months. lots of people have made up their minds that they want to see - their minds that they want to see change _ their minds that they want to see change and — their minds that they want to see change and had _ their minds that they want to see change and had moved _ their minds that they want to see change and had moved away - their minds that they want to see| change and had moved away from their minds that they want to see - change and had moved away from the conservatives — change and had moved away from the conservatives. so _ change and had moved away from the conservatives. so far— change and had moved away from the conservatives. so far the _ change and had moved away from the conservatives. so far the strategies . conservatives. so far the strategies in terms _ conservatives. so far the strategies in terms of— conservatives. so far the strategies in terms of converting _ conservatives. so far the strategies in terms of converting back - conservatives. so far the strategies in terms of converting back some . conservatives. so far the strategies| in terms of converting back some of the don't _ in terms of converting back some of the don't knows _ in terms of converting back some of the don't knows and _ in terms of converting back some of the don't knows and winning - in terms of converting back some of the don't knows and winning back. the don't knows and winning back some _ the don't knows and winning back some of— the don't knows and winning back some of the — the don't knows and winning back some of the reform _ the don't knows and winning back some of the reform voters - the don't knows and winning back some of the reform voters have i the don't knows and winning back. some of the reform voters have not paid out _ some of the reform voters have not aid out. , , ., ., . ~ ., paid out. just to go back to the issue, of spending. _ paid out. just to go back to the issue, of spending. the - paid out. just to go back to the i issue, of spending. the instiitute for fiscal studies has called conspiracy of silence by both parties are potentially as coming down the track. they have identified £18 billion of spending that will need to increase by 2029, 2030. otherwise there will have to be cuts of £18 billion. how will you avoid that? ., , ., , ., ., , ., that? the manifesto is a manifesto for growth- — that? the manifesto is a manifesto for growth. everything _ that? the manifesto is a manifesto for growth. everything we - that? the manifesto is a manifesto for growth. everything we do - that? the manifesto is a manifesto for growth. everything we do is - for growth. everything we do is about growing the economy. if you grow the economy you have more money to put into public services. the instiitute for fiscal studies has welcomed our plans for growth in the manifesto. growing the economy is how you put money back into peoples pockets. how you put money back into peoples ockets. ~ ., how you put money back into peoples ockets. ~ . ., , . pockets. what sort of levels are we talkin: pockets. what sort of levels are we talking about _ pockets. what sort of levels are we talking about full _ pockets. what sort of levels are we talking about full growth _ pockets. what sort of levels are we talking about full growth in - pockets. what sort of levels are we talking about full growth in order. talking about full growth in order to reach the level of £18 billion by 2030? we to reach the level of £18 billion by 2030? ~ ., , ., , 2030? we need to see growth across the economy- — 2030? we need to see growth across the economy- we _ 2030? we need to see growth across the economy. we have _ 2030? we need to see growth across the economy. we have set _ 2030? we need to see growth across the economy. we have set up - 2030? we need to see growth across the economy. we have set up great i the economy. we have set up great british energy to invest in the green jobs british energy to invest in the greenjobs for british energy to invest in the green jobs for the future. we will have a national wealth fund, technical excellence colleges so people have skills they need for the future and get down witness in the nhs so people can get back to work. anything you disagree with? bbout anything you disagree with? about drivin: anything you disagree with? about driving growth _ anything you disagree with? about driving growth in _ anything you disagree with? about driving growth in the _ anything you disagree with? about driving growth in the economy. it is about— driving growth in the economy. it is about that — driving growth in the economy. it is about that and getting down nhs waiting _ about that and getting down nhs waiting list. that is why front and centre _ waiting list. that is why front and centre of— waiting list. that is why front and centre of our manifesto is power. also _ centre of our manifesto is power. also about — centre of our manifesto is power. also about investing in skills and the elephant in the womb, rebuilding our relationship with the european union _ our relationship with the european union to— our relationship with the european union to bring down those trade barriers — union to bring down those trade barriers which have so harmed our economv — barriers which have so harmed our economy. all of those things will help to _ economy. all of those things will help to drive growth and we need to be honest— help to drive growth and we need to be honest about it. we help to drive growth and we need to be honest about it.— be honest about it. we were in the lonuest be honest about it. we were in the longest period _ be honest about it. we were in the longest period of _ be honest about it. we were in the longest period of flat _ be honest about it. we were in the longest period of flat growth - be honest about it. we were in the longest period of flat growth for. be honest about it. we were in the longest period of flat growth for a | longest period of flat growth for a longest period of flat growth for a long time. when you talk about gdp per capita that means voters are getting better. of possible through things like mass immigration to boost gdp numbers without introducing an increase in standards of living. rachel reeves has had a lot about living standards. harder to do than nominal gdp growth. that to do than nominal gdp growth. at the moment the only growth strategy the moment the only growth strategy the government seems to do is rely on immigration and there is no skill strategy. _ on immigration and there is no skill strategy, which is why for example we want _ strategy, which is why for example we want to— strategy, which is why for example we want to set up technical educational colleges so we have the skills we _ educational colleges so we have the skills we need here. are educational colleges so we have the skills we need here.— skills we need here. are you talking about in per— skills we need here. are you talking about in per capita _ skills we need here. are you talking about in per capita terms? - skills we need here. are you talking about in per capita terms? we - skills we need here. are you talking about in per capita terms? we need to increase — about in per capita terms? we need to increase grace _ about in per capita terms? we need to increase grace across _ about in per capita terms? we need to increase grace across the - about in per capita terms? we need to increase grace across the piece. l to increase grace across the piece. across _ to increase grace across the piece. across the — to increase grace across the piece. across the board. are you talking about improving a pair of population? we about improving a pair of population?— about improving a pair of population? about improving a pair of --oulation? ~ . ., population? we need both. we need to increase growth — population? we need both. we need to increase growth across _ population? we need both. we need to increase growth across the _ population? we need both. we need to increase growth across the country. - increase growth across the country. it is increase growth across the country. it is that _ increase growth across the country. it is that why nigel farage and reform are doing so well? you have not managed to deliver your pledges in terms of legal migration or illegal migration. brute in terms of legal migration or illegal migration.— in terms of legal migration or illegal migration. we have already made changes _ illegal migration. we have already made changes to _ illegal migration. we have already made changes to the _ illegal migration. we have already made changes to the visa - illegal migration. we have already made changes to the visa regime | made changes to the visa regime which has seen a 25% reduction in pieces in the first quarter of this year. on growth, a couple of points. we may be less internationally competitive in terms of university. former— competitive in terms of university. former co—of the top universities, four at the top ten universities in the world of british universities. uk growth since 2010 has been third orfourth. in terms uk growth since 2010 has been third or fourth. in terms of labour's growth plan, increasing taxes is not a way to get growth going. on the point of skill. we have invested in one dozen phd is an artificial intelligence. more people going into technical and scientific subjects. there are around 90% of schools rated good or outstanding. fining there are around 9096 of schools rated good or outstanding. only 6896 under the last _ rated good or outstanding. only 6896 under the last labour _ rated good or outstanding. only 6896 under the last labour government. i rated good or outstanding. only 6896. under the last labour government. on skills. _ under the last labour government. on skills. the _ under the last labour government. on skills, the conservative government is defending so many important vocational qualifications, particularly the tax in shortage occupation industries like hospitality and childcare. t—levels have had — hospitality and childcare. t—levels have had a — hospitality and childcare. t—levels have had a tiny take up. you are going _ have had a tiny take up. you are going to — have had a tiny take up. you are going to be _ have had a tiny take up. you are going to be leaving lots of young people _ going to be leaving lots of young people without options he cannot reach _ people without options he cannot reach the — people without options he cannot reach the t—levels. at the same time as clamping — reach the t—levels. at the same time as clamping down on foreign workforce. we as clamping down on foreign workforce-— as clamping down on foreign workforce. ~ . , , workforce. we have been investing heavil in workforce. we have been investing heavily in high _ workforce. we have been investing heavily in high quality _ heavily in high quality apprenticeships. in the manifesto a couple days ago, you will have seen an intention to get the office for students to look at reducing the numbers going into lower quality university degrees that do not add value and reinvest that money in apprenticeships and vocational skills. the number of high quality apprenticeships... you skills. the number of high quality apprenticeships. . .— skills. the number of high quality apprenticeships... you are calling them hiuh apprenticeships... you are calling them high quality _ apprenticeships... you are calling them high quality but _ apprenticeships... you are calling them high quality but the - apprenticeships... you are calling them high quality but the overalll them high quality but the overall has gone down.— them high quality but the overall has one down. ~ . . ~ has gone down. while we are talking about higher — has gone down. while we are talking about higher education, _ has gone down. while we are talking about higher education, i _ has gone down. while we are talking about higher education, i want - has gone down. while we are talking about higher education, i want to - about higher education, i want to read this on page 86 of the labour manifesto. the current higher education funding settlement does not work for the taxpayer, university staff and students. labour will say it will create opportunities across the uk. what opportunities across the uk. what are ou opportunities across the uk. what are you proposing? _ opportunities across the uk. what are you proposing? it _ opportunities across the uk. what are you proposing? it is _ opportunities across the uk. what are you proposing? it is a - opportunities across the uk. what are you proposing? it is a very vague commitment, if you like to reforming it. are you going to allow tuition fees to go up?— tuition fees to go up? there are no lans to tuition fees to go up? there are no plans to put _ tuition fees to go up? there are no plans to put tuition _ tuition fees to go up? there are no plans to put tuition fees _ tuition fees to go up? there are no plans to put tuition fees up. - tuition fees to go up? there are no plans to put tuition fees up. what l plans to put tuition fees up. what are ou plans to put tuition fees up. what are you going _ plans to put tuition fees up. what are you going to _ plans to put tuition fees up. what are you going to do? _ plans to put tuition fees up. what are you going to do? we - plans to put tuition fees up. what are you going to do? we are - plans to put tuition fees up. what l are you going to do? we are going plans to put tuition fees up. what. are you going to do? we are going to look at the model. _ are you going to do? we are going to look at the model. our _ are you going to do? we are going to look at the model. our offer - are you going to do? we are going to look at the model. our offer on - look at the model. our offer on education — look at the model. our offer on education is incredibly strong. 6500 new teachers in schools. | education is incredibly strong. 6500 new teachers in schools. i was talkin: new teachers in schools. i was talking about _ new teachers in schools. i was talking about universities. - new teachers in schools. i was i talking about universities. there are a lot of vague commitments to reforming the sunlight. that one struck me. something else that struck me. something else that struck me. something else that struck me over the course of this campaign about the conservatives in the long term ambition to abolish national insurance. long—term ambition. what will the criteria people claiming your full state pension if you are self—employed, for example, if you get rid of national insurance? we for example, if you get rid of national insurance?— for example, if you get rid of national insurance? we have already cut headline — national insurance? we have already cut headline national— national insurance? we have already cut headline national insurance - national insurance? we have already cut headline national insurance by i cut headline national insurance by four percent, from i2% down to eight. saving the average worker £900 a year. we have committed to going further, another 2% reduction. when it is fiscally affordable, we will look to reduce it further. we had to make sure we look at things like income tax to assess people's eligibility for the old age pension. it is already affecting people now. we are going to make sure people are entitled to a state pension paying taxes and he was entitled to draw a pension. we have given the average worker a tax cut of £900 in the last few months and we will go further because we believe it will help. spending money on a tax cut that does _ spending money on a tax cut that does not — spending money on a tax cut that does not give most people that much money— does not give most people that much money compared with more targeted interventions. what freelancers wanted — interventions. what freelancers wanted was to scrap ir35. if you are telling hm treasury — scrap ir35. if you are telling hm treasury you will miss out on measures— treasury you will miss out on measures for freelancers, dating the enforcement of ir35 will get more or less vigorous? it does not affect that many— less vigorous? it does not affect that many freelance workers. they really _ that many freelance workers. they really wanted to scrap ir35, rishi sunak— really wanted to scrap ir35, rishi sunak tax— really wanted to scrap ir35, rishi sunak tax reform, and he has not done _ sunak tax reform, and he has not done it _ sunak tax reform, and he has not done it. ~ ., , ., done it. millions of the self-employed - done it. millions of the self-employed will - done it. millions of the l self-employed will never done it. millions of the - self-employed will never forget done it. millions of the _ self-employed will never forget that self—employed will never forget that rishi sunak did not support them during covid. they were excluded. freelancers were left high and dry and they still talk to me about it because they were left in such dire straits by this government. let mejust show let me just show you a moment a clip with our reporter trying to catch up with our reporter trying to catch up with craig williams, who is a conservative candidate in this election. he was a former parliamentary aide to rishi sunak. he is facing questions from the gambling commission about a bet that he placed on the date of the election injuly. three days before it was called. let's have a look. hello, mrwilliams. joe it was called. let's have a look. hello, mr williams. joe pike from bbc news. did you have inside information when you placed your bet on the election date? it is information when you placed your bet on the election date?— on the election date? it is an independent _ on the election date? it is an independent process - on the election date? it is an independent process with - on the election date? it is an | independent process with the gambling commission. i will not be expanding on that statement was my did you have any inside information? i made a huge error ofjudgment that's for sure. hat i made a huge error of 'udgment that's for swat that's for sure. not helpful is, what did you _ that's for sure. not helpful is, what did you make _ that's for sure. not helpful is, what did you make of- that's for sure. not helpful is, what did you make of this? i that's for sure. not helpful is, | what did you make of this? he that's for sure. not helpful is, . what did you make of this? he is obviously made _ what did you make of this? he is obviously made a _ what did you make of this? he is obviously made a huge - what did you make of this? he is obviously made a huge error - what did you make of this? he is obviously made a huge error of judgment. it is good and independent body are _ judgment. it is good and independent body are looking at this and let the due process unfold but it is good that he _ due process unfold but it is good that he is— due process unfold but it is good that he is made that fairly clear apology— that he is made that fairly clear apology that. that he is made that fairly clear apology that-— that he is made that fairly clear apology that. that he is made that fairly clear aolo: that. ~ , , . ., ., apology that. well, yes, an error of 'udument. apology that. well, yes, an error of judgment- i— apology that. well, yes, an error of judgment. i thought _ apology that. well, yes, an error of judgment. i thought he _ apology that. well, yes, an error of judgment. i thought he had - apology that. well, yes, an error of judgment. i thought he had made i apology that. well, yes, an error of. judgment. i thought he had made the bet in which case _ judgment. i thought he had made the bet in which case i _ judgment. i thought he had made the bet in which case i thought _ judgment. i thought he had made the bet in which case i thought he - bet in which case i thought he honestly— bet in which case i thought he honestly wouldn't _ bet in which case i thought he honestly wouldn't know - bet in which case i thought he i honestly wouldn't know because bet in which case i thought he - honestly wouldn't know because if it was three _ honestly wouldn't know because if it was three days _ honestly wouldn't know because if it was three days before _ honestly wouldn't know because if it was three days before than - honestly wouldn't know because if it was three days before than he - was three days before than he actually — was three days before than he actually might _ was three days before than he actually might have, - was three days before than he actually might have, in - was three days before than he actually might have, in whichi was three days before than he - actually might have, in which case this is— actually might have, in which case this isjust — actually might have, in which case this isjust an— actually might have, in which case this is just an extraordinarily - this isjust an extraordinarily stupid — this isjust an extraordinarily stupid thing _ this isjust an extraordinarily stupid thing to _ this isjust an extraordinarily stupid thing to have - this isjust an extraordinarily stupid thing to have done. . this is just an extraordinarily i stupid thing to have done. let this isjust an extraordinarily stupid thing to have done. let me show this headline, _ stupid thing to have done. let me show this headline, bbc - stupid thing to have done. let me show this headline, bbc news, i stupid thing to have done. let mel show this headline, bbc news, bot stupid thing to have done. let me i show this headline, bbc news, bot or not. ourfake accounts show this headline, bbc news, bot or not. our fake accounts swing voters towards reform uk? the article was written by our disinformation and social media correspondent who joins us now. before we get into the details, what is a bot? abs, us now. before we get into the details, what is a bot?- us now. before we get into the details, what is a bot? a bot is a term used _ details, what is a bot? a bot is a term used to _ details, what is a bot? a bot is a term used to describe and i term used to describe and inauthentic account. it used to mean a kind of an account there was automated but people have used it for any kind of account that could be fake in some way. i have been looking into this issue of bots, whether they are or if they are real people using my undercover vote are told about last week. i use their social media profiles to see what had been recommended, included messages with repeated messages particular about reform uk. you looked sickly _ particular about reform uk. you looked sickly at _ particular about reform uk. you looked sickly at pro—reform uk accounts what did you find? looked sickly at pro-reform uk accounts what did you find? there were a lot of _ accounts what did you find? there were a lot of accounts _ accounts what did you find? there were a lot of accounts copying i accounts what did you find? ii—ii” were a lot of accounts copying and pasting the same phrases and lots of other users with an accusing these accounts have been lots. i wanted to get to the bottom of what was going on, the same accusations were not being levelled at other political parties. so i looked into this, i messaged lots and lots of different accounts. ifound more than messaged lots and lots of different accounts. i found more than 50 that had the hallmarks of inauthentic accounts, so they might have a user name or picture that is totally anonymous, their sharing or repetitive content all the time, they don't have any real friends or followers. ifound that they don't have any real friends or followers. i found that some of these accounts were real people who got back to me to me to say, yeah, i am really passionate about voting for reform uk. i have decided i want to share these comments, even though it is an anonymous account. they say they are feeling really disillusioned about politics and thatis disillusioned about politics and that is why they want to vote for reform. other accounts i got in touch with were not able to prove that they were authentic, not willing to prove they were authentic. one had a bit of a back—and—forth with me, lots of people were suggesting the account was based abroad or was even parity. when i messaged it lots of the messages had grammatical errors, strange phrases used to describe where they were based in england. they said they were a genuine account and they're working with reform uk. reform uk said they did not know anything about this account, and they said while they are delighted about lots of support from real voters on their content, they're also a bit concerned about some of these other accounts that are pretending to be involved with the party and that account as actually since being suspended. interesting. how much suede you think these kinds of accounts having an election campaign? i think these kinds of accounts having an election campaign?— an election campaign? i think it is uuite an election campaign? i think it is quite interesting _ an election campaign? i think it is quite interesting because - an election campaign? i think it is quite interesting because this i an election campaign? i think it is quite interesting because this is i quite interesting because this is quite interesting because this is quite a complex online landscape, genuine people who are just copying pasting stuff, repeating the same messages and who have every right to express their view and who they want to vote for a while. the impact of thatis to vote for a while. the impact of that is perhaps to boost support all such as a popular party. of these other accounts play a part in that, the ones where it is kind of impossible to tell who is behind them and running them. these accounts interact with one another. some of the real voters i spoke to said seeing the other accounts posed by reform uk encouraged me to get involved. i think what is important here and something i've found throughout this election is that what it tells us is while a lot of the content coming from the parties can reach us a people it is also comments and posts coming from real voters or anonymous average people who can have just as much voters or anonymous average people who can havejust as much impact and shape a lot of the online narrative. i've seen this with other political parties? i've seen this with other political arties? ,. i've seen this with other political arties? . .. ., , i've seen this with other political arties? ., ,. parties? the same accusations about bots they haven't _ parties? the same accusations about bots they haven't been _ parties? the same accusations about bots they haven't been directed i parties? the same accusations about bots they haven't been directed at i bots they haven't been directed at the other parties in the same way and i haven't seen accounts behaving like this. it is one of the reasons why looked into this. i think it is an important issue because people have been talking about allegations of foreign influence, operations for a while now. real examples of where that's happened but there are questions about the impact that has had. the question now is lots of people lean toward calling stuff bots even when it turns out to be genuine people sometimes. it is important for people notjust genuine people sometimes. it is important for people not just to jump important for people not just to jump to the conclusion that something might be a bot or actually look into the account and look at some of the content they might be sharing and whether they're real or not, really interrogate what they're seeing. all of the social media companies i reached out to told me that they don't allow fake accounts like this. by, that they don't allow fake accounts like this. �* w' that they don't allow fake accounts like this. �* w , ., , ., like this. a quick question before we let you _ like this. a quick question before we let you go _ like this. a quick question before we let you go from _ like this. a quick question before we let you go from chris - like this. a quick question before we let you go from chris philp i like this. a quick question before l we let you go from chris philp our guest here. what did you want to ask? ~ i. guest here. what did you want to ask? ~ , ., , , ,., , ask? where you identify these bots, who do you — ask? where you identify these bots, who do you think— ask? where you identify these bots, who do you think is _ ask? where you identify these bots, who do you think is behind - ask? where you identify these bots, who do you think is behind this? it i who do you think is behind this? it has been _ who do you think is behind this? it has been a — who do you think is behind this? it has been a concern in previous elections — has been a concern in previous elections that hostile foreign states— elections that hostile foreign states come up sickly russia, have been _ states come up sickly russia, have been behind election this information here and in the us. you have _ information here and in the us. you have any— information here and in the us. you have any idea who might be these bots? _ have any idea who might be these bots? ble— have any idea who might be these bots? ~ ., have any idea who might be these bots? ~ . ., , . , bots? we have to be really transparent _ bots? we have to be really transparent with _ bots? we have to be really transparent with every i bots? we have to be really i transparent with every watching bots? we have to be really - transparent with every watching now that we can tell when an account is real, often they will get back to me and provide other evidence that they are a real person and i found that was the case for a lot of these comments. but there are others where they are not able to willing to provide any evidence that they are an authentic account and have subsequently been suspended by the social media platforms well. these accounts could be run by groups of supporters, i investigated a network last week that worked in that way. they could also be run from elsewhere. some of the accounts i found were posting for example about american politics, some about the war in ukraine, other issues. right now it is kind of impossible to tell but i'm going to keep looking into that and if i do figure out exactly where some of these accounts are coming from i will definitely be back on politics live.— back on politics live. yes, you will. back on politics live. yes, you will- thank — back on politics live. yes, you will. thank you. _ back on politics live. yes, you will. thank you. across - back on politics live. yes, you will. thank you. across the i back on politics live. yes, you i will. thank you. across the course of the election campaign we have been speaking, as you know to representatives of several political parties on a daily basis, including some of the smaller parties. we are soon going to be speaking to the workers party of britain for example. we are speaking to the social democratic party, who are standing 122 candidates in the election. let's go to northumberland where the leaderjoins us. welcome to you. we have also asked representatives of the parties in their first appearance to give a 32nd pitch about what you are about. but in that, perhaps you could also say yes you are the social democratic party. people remember the sdp of the 19805 but you are not same party, are you? the sdp of the 1980s but you are not same party. are you?— same party, are you? well, we are the same party _ same party, are you? well, we are the same party in _ same party, are you? well, we are the same party in that parties i same party, are you? well, we are the same party in that parties are l the same party in that parties are voluntary associations. and ijoined the sdp in 82 and we had a lot of members back in the 805 and the party survived. it went to the margins after 1990 but it is basically the same party and actually we believe in some of the same things. the social market economy is our economic message and voting reform is important to us. basically we are a party of the conservative left. i think on cultural issues we are to the right of the tories. that is not very difficult as most tories in parliament are social liberals. and on economics we are left leaning, we are certainly to the left of the labour party, currently looking to nationalise the railways and utilities and engage a large—scale housing programme. that utilities and engage a large-scale housing programme.— utilities and engage a large-scale housing programme. that is i think our 30 housing programme. that is i think your 30 seconds _ housing programme. that is i think your 30 seconds or _ housing programme. that is i think your 30 seconds or thereabouts i housing programme. that is i think your 30 seconds or thereabouts is l your 30 seconds or thereabouts is up. your manifesto wants to put family front and centre, including to allow couples to share the full tax allowance meaning they wouldn't pay any tax for the first £25,000 raising children. why are you privatising family in this particular way when there are so many other issues at hand, whether it is broadly the economy or nhs for example? it is broadly the economy or nhs for examle? �* u, , it is broadly the economy or nhs for examle? �* , , ., example? because we believe that the famil is the example? because we believe that the family is the foundation _ example? because we believe that the family is the foundation of _ example? because we believe that the family is the foundation of society. i family is the foundation of society. it is, it is clear. it is the place where we learn to become responsible adults and in britain anyway the fracture of the family, family disintegration is a major, major problem. on your problem you will often talk about things like knife crime and other social issues but actually the causal route of a lot of that is the breakdown in the family. it is a staggering statistic but british 16—year—old is more likely to have a screen in their room than a father in the house, appoint people like david goodhart has made many times before. you need to get behind the family instead of doing nothing. to get behind the family instead of doing nothing-— doing nothing. right, you describe ourself as doing nothing. right, you describe yourself as a _ doing nothing. right, you describe yourself as a patriotic _ doing nothing. right, you describe| yourself as a patriotic economically left leaning a5 yourself as a patriotic economically left leaning as you have said, culturally traditional party. but what gap is it in the political spectrum? what gap are you trying to fill? it spectrum? what gap are you trying to fill? . , , , �* , fill? it manifestly isn't, there is a .a . fill? it manifestly isn't, there is a aa- in fill? it manifestly isn't, there is a gap in british _ fill? it manifestly isn't, there is a gap in british politics - fill? it manifestly isn't, there is a gap in british politics and i fill? it manifestly isn't, there is i a gap in british politics and david goodhart has talked about it. leaning a little bit left on the economics and right if you want to call it that on culture. that is actually where most british people are. and i should really be the happiest party leader in the country because most positions, virtually every major position of the sdp have is supported by majority british people. people are crying out some like this. but people. people are crying out some like this. �* ., people. people are crying out some like this. �* . , ., ., �* . like this. but what you don't have much representation. _ like this. but what you don't have much representation. your- like this. but what you don't have much representation. your party | like this. but what you don't have i much representation. your party has made an election pact with reform. you are standing aside for each other in six constituencies and have more than a dozen candidates standing under a joint sdp reform banner but are you reform butjust under a different name? banner but are you reform but 'ust under a different name?i under a different name? when we neaotiated under a different name? when we negotiated the _ under a different name? when we negotiated the deal— under a different name? when we negotiated the deal two _ under a different name? when we negotiated the deal two years i under a different name? when we negotiated the deal two years ago under a different name? when we i negotiated the deal two years ago we made it clear that our economics was not up for made it clear that our economics was not upfor grabs made it clear that our economics was not up for grabs in any deal and it isn't actually. if you look across 20 or 30 policy domains we couldn't actually agree policy with reform because our economics is very different. we are not free—market liberals, i think that model has beggared the country and it is over. 0k. beggared the country and it is over. ok. in a recent piece for gb news he said the tories failed but labour will be even worse for britain. if the choice is between the tories and labour you would choose the conservatives.— labour you would choose the conservatives. ., ., �* ., conservatives. no, iwouldn't. no, stranael conservatives. no, iwouldn't. no, strangely enough _ conservatives. no, iwouldn't. no, strangely enough the _ conservatives. no, iwouldn't. no, i strangely enough the conservatives, their failures have been strangely enough the conservatives, theirfailures have been so strangely enough the conservatives, their failures have been so full spectrum it would be unconscionable for us... , , . for us... right, see prefer labour? i think for us... right, see prefer labour? i think labour— for us... right, see prefer labour? i think labour will— for us... right, see prefer labour? i think labour will win _ for us... right, see prefer labour? i think labour will win but - i think labour will win but you can't actually know anything about the programme because keir starmer won't tell us. the programme because keir starmer won't tell us— won't tell us. thank you much for tellin: won't tell us. thank you much for telling us- _ won't tell us. thank you much for telling us. munira, _ won't tell us. thank you much for telling us. munira, we _ won't tell us. thank you much for| telling us. munira, we should give you a say. telling us. munira, we should give ou a sa ., , ., telling us. munira, we should give ouasa .g, ., . . you a say. just to make it clear that the sdp _ you a say. just to make it clear that the sdp has _ you a say. just to make it clear that the sdp has nothing i you a say. just to make it clear that the sdp has nothing to i you a say. just to make it clear that the sdp has nothing to do | that the sdp has nothing to do with the liberai— that the sdp has nothing to do with the liberal democrats. _ that the sdp has nothing to do with the liberal democrats. it— that the sdp has nothing to do with the liberal democrats. it was - that the sdp has nothing to do with the liberal democrats. it was all. the liberal democrats. it was all over— the liberal democrats. it was all over the — the liberal democrats. it was all over the place _ the liberal democrats. it was all over the place in— the liberal democrats. it was all over the place in terms- the liberal democrats. it was all over the place in terms of- the liberal democrats. it was all over the place in terms of what. the liberal democrats. it was all. over the place in terms of what he said _ over the place in terms of what he said. , ., .. ., ., , over the place in terms of what he said. , ., , . ~ said. they do trace their roots back to ou. .. said. they do trace their roots back to you... there _ said. they do trace their roots back to you... there is _ said. they do trace their roots back to you... there is absolute - said. they do trace their roots back to you... there is absolute no i to you... there is absolute no connection — to you... there is absolute no connection there. _ to you... there is absolute no connection there. listening . to you... there is absolute noj connection there. listening to to you... there is absolute no i connection there. listening to there in terms of — connection there. listening to there in terms ofjoining _ connection there. listening to there in terms ofjoining with _ connection there. listening to there in terms ofjoining with reform i connection there. listening to there in terms ofjoining with reform and | in terms ofjoining with reform and are packed in certain seats, it is interesting listening —— the packed... interesting listening -- the packed- - -— packed... the biggest and represented... _ packed... the biggest and represented... there i packed... the biggest and represented... there is i packed... the biggest and represented... there is a | packed... the biggest and . represented... there is a big packed... the biggest and - represented... there is a big block of voters _ represented... there is a big block of voters there, opinion poll suggest. _ of voters there, opinion poll suggest, neither party is in that space — suggest, neither party is in that space. this is one of the reasons i think— space. this is one of the reasons i think reform uk pitch is one. they are thatcherite boris johnson's promise — are thatcherite boris johnson's promise more high spending conservatism won over the red wall. the question is be better off and this is— the question is be better off and this is always a problem on minor parties. _ this is always a problem on minor parties. he — this is always a problem on minor parties, he will be much better off inside _ parties, he will be much better off inside reform then having yet another— inside reform then having yet another party with a faulty raw brand — another party with a faulty raw brand with weird deals with reform uk while _ brand with weird deals with reform uk while stressing how much they disagree _ uk while stressing how much they disagree with reform.— uk while stressing how much they disagree with reform. maybe should have a chat with _ disagree with reform. maybe should have a chat with them _ disagree with reform. maybe should have a chat with them about - have a chat with them about strategy, henry, in the future! that is all we have time for today. thank you to all of our guests forjoining me here on a friday. i will be back on court on monday with more politics live at 12:15pm here on bbc two and the iplayer. but from all others here have a very good afternoon and a lovely weekend. enjoy the campaign and the euros. —— my eye will be back today at one — scotland prepare to kick off the euro 2024 football tournament in a few hours' time. tens of thousands of fans have descended on munich, where scotland play the hosts germany in the opening game of the month—long festival of football. also on the programme this lunchtime... how english water ccompanies may have been responsible for 6,000 illegal sewage spills in the space of a year. rishi sunak claims a vote for reform uk in next month's election ri5k5 giving labour a blank cheque. a warning from the nhs that some people are misusing weight loss drugs to get "beach body ready". absolutely terrible. no wonder everybody is going abroad for their holidays. and what's happened to our summer? we talk to shivering holiday—makers at the british seaside. and coming up in the sport on bbc news...

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