does the green party now accept that thatis does the green party now accept that that is a totally retrograde step that is a totally retrograde step that puts ideology before a women and their babies' health? this that puts ideology before a women and their babies' health?— and their babies' health? this is a sensitive subject _ and their babies' health? this is a sensitive subject and _ and their babies' health? this is a sensitive subject and a _ and their babies' health? this is a sensitive subject and a woman . and their babies' health? this is a - sensitive subject and a woman always has the right to choose what happens to her body. policy needs to be decided by health experts. in the green party are education policies overlooked by teachers and health policy overlooked by gps. this was never going to be in the manifesto and certainly isn't in the manifesto. if you will bear with me for 20 seconds, policy is decided on the green party, one member one vote so any member can decide policy and get together and that is what we vote for our conference. i'm proud of that... because you not proud of this. that is evolving policy that is not in the manifesto, it is not a platform that i'm here to stand on. how did it make it onto your website?— how did it make it onto your website? . , , , , p website? that is busily difficult when it comes _ website? that is busily difficult when it comes to _ website? that is busily difficult when it comes to questions - website? that is busily difficult| when it comes to questions like website? that is busily difficult - when it comes to questions like this but that is a democratic way to do things, and that is the real hope and the rule change that the green party 0pera, a different way of doing politics. —— the green party offer. back to the pm — who was also on itv, as well as sky tonight, being interviewed by paul brand. it's the interview he came back from d—day to record last thursday. here's a clip. what did you go without as a child? i went without lots of things, right? because my parents wanted to put everything into our education and that was a priority. so what sort of things had to be sacrificed? 0h, lots of things! right? so... can you give me an example of something? all sorts of things. like lots of people, there'll be all sorts of things that i would have wanted as a kid that i couldn't have, right? mm—hmm. famously, sky tv! 0k. so, that was something that we never had growing up, actually. you tory adviser to a cabinet minister, what did you think of that response, salma shah? —— you were a tory adviser. the response, salma shah? -- you were a tory adviser-— tory adviser. the problem is problem is it is completely _ tory adviser. the problem is problem is it is completely authentic _ tory adviser. the problem is problem is it is completely authentic and - is it is completely authentic and accurate and he may have missed sky tv growing up, but it doesn't resonate and every attempt he makes to be relatable falls flat. he should take a lesson from david cameron, always accused of being elite because he was anatolian. david always just said, it is not about where i came from, it is where i am going and he didn't try and apologise for his background. the virtue was he wanted to give something back. ithink virtue was he wanted to give something back. i think rishi needs to be more aware that is not how people regard him. itruiith to be more aware that is not how people regard him.— people regard him. with these debates and _ people regard him. with these debates and one-to-one - people regard him. with these - debates and one-to-one interviews debates and one—to—one interviews where you sit for half an hour and you are grilled, you gain that stuff with your advisers, don't you? rishi sunak must know almost every time he does an interview whether it is with a boater or interviewer that he will be asked about his wealth. you a boater or interviewer that he will be asked about his wealth.- be asked about his wealth. you do aain it, be asked about his wealth. you do gain it. but _ be asked about his wealth. you do gain it, but politics _ be asked about his wealth. you do gain it, but politics is _ be asked about his wealth. you do gain it, but politics is really - gain it, but politics is really brutal, _ gain it, but politics is really brutal, it_ gain it, but politics is really brutal, it really exposes your deficiencies. there is something very forensic about the scrutiny you are under_ very forensic about the scrutiny you are under in— very forensic about the scrutiny you are under in a campaign like this that eventually, everybody gets found _ that eventually, everybody gets found out in politics. slowly or quickly, — found out in politics. slowly or quickly, you get found out. rishi sunak— quickly, you get found out. rishi sunak is— quickly, you get found out. rishi sunak is getting found out quite quickly, — sunak is getting found out quite quickly, he is not very adept at those — quickly, he is not very adept at those things and not very skilful. although — those things and not very skilful. although he will have been through preparation, but when you are there and you _ preparation, but when you are there and you suddenly cannot think on your feet — and you suddenly cannot think on your feet and it was authentic and that was_ your feet and it was authentic and that was the problem with it. in context, he was trying to say, i can fill in _ context, he was trying to say, i can fill in the _ context, he was trying to say, i can fill in the answer he should have given— fill in the answer he should have given rather too late. he was trying to say— given rather too late. he was trying to say that — given rather too late. he was trying to say that as his parents was so obsessed — to say that as his parents was so obsessed with our education, that took priority over everything else and we _ took priority over everything else and we of— took priority over everything else and we of course had to go without some _ and we of course had to go without some other— and we of course had to go without some other things in order to ensure that could _ some other things in order to ensure that could be looked after. that is a perfectly— that could be looked after. that is a perfectly reasonable thing to say. he's not _ a perfectly reasonable thing to say. he's not saying, the things i went without— he's not saying, the things i went without food. and that would have been _ without food. and that would have been a _ without food. and that would have been a reasonable answer. but he 'ust been a reasonable answer. but he just completely got lost and allow the question to stick him on the question— the question to stick him on the question of, what was it? it was the tv. the problem is he answered a auestion tv. the problem is he answered a question directly _ tv. the problem is he answered a question directly and _ tv. the problem is he answered a question directly and often, - tv. the problem is he answered a question directly and often, we i tv. the problem is he answered a l question directly and often, we hear it all the time, people criticise politicians for not answering directly and that is what he did. and both of us now are criticising him for answering something directly. him for answering something directl . ,, him for answering something directl. ,, , , , him for answering something directl. ,, , , directly. quite, because he is a novice. another _ directly. quite, because he is a novice. another thing - directly. quite, because he is a novice. another thing people . directly. quite, because he is a i novice. another thing people say directly. quite, because he is a - novice. another thing people say is that we _ novice. another thing people say is that we need people in politics you have done — that we need people in politics you have done other things before. i always— have done other things before. i always think, no, we don't, we want people _ always think, no, we don't, we want people who have done politics so they know — people who have done politics so they know what they are doing and they know what they are doing and they don't— they know what they are doing and they don't fall over on an elementary question like that. because — elementary question like that. because it was really kind of easy. it wasn't _ because it was really kind of easy. it wasn't even a tough question. 0ther— it wasn't even a tough question. other things that have happened today, grant shapps on the radio was warning of a labour supermajority, geoffrey cox talking about sleepwalking into a socialist, one state socialist country. tom tugendhat apparently on manoeuvres. does that suggest to you we are at a point with three weeks to go to some conservatives are saying out loud what they might have said privately for a while that the conservatives are going to lose? i for a while that the conservatives are going to lose?— are going to lose? i think the strate: are going to lose? i think the strategy has _ are going to lose? i think the strategy has always - are going to lose? i think the strategy has always been - are going to lose? i think the i strategy has always been about damage limitation. but not publicly. that is exactly right, that has a ways been the strategy behind the scenes. there is the air war and the ground campaign. i think lots of people are trying to secure their own seats in their own constituencies who might be saying something different on the doorstep. halfway through an election campaign, you do need to cope the message disciplined. however much you might think the best sega eight —— the best case scenario is not to give keir starmer a supermajority, articulating that is not the best at this point. articulating that is not the best at this oint. ~ �* ., ., ., ~ this point. we're out of time, thank ou for this point. we're out of time, thank you for being _ this point. we're out of time, thank you for being with _ this point. we're out of time, thank you for being with us _ this point. we're out of time, thank you for being with us and _ this point. we're out of time, thank you for being with us and talking i you for being with us and talking our viewers. live from london. this is bbc news. rishi sunak and sir keir starmer have both insisted they would not raise taxes for working people, as they answered election questions in front of a live television audience. knives on the streets and a life of dealing drugs — we have a special report on the communities living with crime — and those committing it. the conservative and labour leaders have this evening faced tough questions from an audience in grimsby, in their latest election campaign grilling. in a sky news election special, sir keir starmer admitted that he knew labour would lose the 2019 general election when he campaigned with jeremy corbyn as leader — he was also challenged on his spending plans and his proposal to levy vat on private school fees. rishi sunak faced accusations that he had failed to meet pledges on the nhs and immigration — and criticism of the conservatives' record in government. 0ur political editor chris mason was watching in grimbsby. quite the day. grant shapps a super labour and winning big. three weeks away from polling day. then there was tonight, rishi sunak, keir starmer and presenter beth rigby. politics on prime time, on your screen, it feels like pretty much every night this month. tonight in grimsby, keir starmer and rishi sunak, each facing an interview, each facing questions from the studio audience. first up, the labour leader. you said, i do think— jeremy corbyn would make a great prime minister. jeremy corbyn. did you mean that? i was certain we would lose the 2019 election. that's not my question. i was certain that we would lose it. i did campaign for labour, of course i did, i will openly say i campaigned for labour, i wanted good colleagues to be returned. returned into the labour party. and i wanted a party that was capable of being changed so we could face the future. did you not mean it when you said it? l i was certain we would lose. he promised labour would not put up income tax rates, national insurance or vat but was less clear on fuel duty and council tax. but sir keir claimed his approach to tax was different from his predecessor's. i accept previous labour leaders have pulled the tax leave everything a timer driven up spending. i want to grow our economy. the manifesto tomorrow will be a manifesto for wealth creation. he faced awkward questions about promises he made to become labour leader and then gotjumped, and he said he had to focus on the country now, not his party. and he was asked if he becomes prime minister in three weeks... what would you fear the most? the only real fear i suppose i have is for my family. i have a boy who is just turning 16, he is 15 and three quarters, a girl who is 13, these are difficult ages for children. i don't fear the big decisions, in fact i relish the chance to change our country. this was a studio audience not ill easily pleased. there was a question on pay for doctors and the labour plan to tax private school fees and then this... over the last year, i feel like you have formed into more of a politician than the person i would have voted for to run the country. you seem more like a political robot. how are you going to convince others like me to vote for you? well... laughter. next up it was rishi sunak. your polling is now worse than in the i dying days of the liz truss - government so what is going so wrong? i have to say, it has not be an easy 18 months in general. what i have done is just keep going to try and do my best for people. and given we have had three prime ministers in under two years... how do we know that - if you want the election you would still be prime - minister in a year's time? applause i can appreciate people's frustrations, of course we have not got everything right, i don't think any government as i think it's been very difficult for many people. he faced awkward questions on the promises he had made and failed to keep. and william asked him about what he would do for young people. what we announced yesterday in the manifesto a couple of days ago will make a big difference because it will mean that it is much easier for young people to get on the housing ladder and buy their first home so whether it is an amazing apprenticeship, nationalservice, buying your own home, what we're seeing bold ideas that will make a big difference and spread opportunity around. but here was the standout question. my name is amy, i'm a former conservative party chair and a lifelong true blue but in this election i buy myself an undecided voter. actions taken by this government actually make me feel ashamed. more generally at this election, as you said, you're undecided, this is about the future in the future you want for our country. and i believe the manifesto we put out yesterday contains a very clear plan, a bold set of actions that will deliver a more secure future for you and everybody. and before long it was over. thank you so much for joining us in grimsbyl tonight. scrutiny, interrogation for the men who want to leave the country, and there is plenty more to come. plenty of scrutiny for keir starmer but that's the opposition leader that you don't have a record to defend. and then we heard amy and leads. in many sense personifying the essence of the challenge that rishi sunak faces the essence of the challenge that rishi sunakfaces in the essence of the challenge that rishi sunak faces in this contest. former conservative voters, in her case more than that, now not convinced and not long for rishi sunak to try and win them around. one of the curious story to bring you an update on, a senior aide to rishi sunak has admitted that the gambling commission are making inquiries after the guardian reported that he placed a bet on the likelihood of a general election in july likelihood of a general election in julyjust a couple of days before the general election was called. the man in question is craig williams in on social media tonight he said i put a foot or on the general election at few weeks ago this has resulted, he said in some routine inquiries. that's a reference to the gambling commission i willfully cooperate. well let's speak to damien grammaticus because he can put some of that into context for us. good to have you. starting with circular starmer. he was pressed about his support forjeremy corbyn, pressed about whether labour would raise taxes. how did he handle what he referred to as a trust issue? this was interesting because the first time that the two leaders have sat down and face a sustained one—on—one grilling with a live audience and therefore they were under extra scrutiny. keir starmer did find it difficult when he was being questioned clearly about his past support forjeremy corbyn and whether he'd said thatjeremy corbyn would make a fantastic prime minister, whether he genuinely believe that put up the way he handled that quite frankly was not to answer that directly. he said he didn't believe that they were going to win that election. that left that open. we seem conservatives already attacking him on that. on taxes, what he said is sticking to his mantra that what we will see in the manifesto tomorrow is going to be nothing new, nothing unexpected and everything in their is already has a tax rise earmarked to go with it. nothing above that is what he is saying. although he did leave open some possibilities outside the main big taxes that he didn't commit to holding everything down. he kind of trotted a careful line there. he did say and he did keep repeating that he had looked through everything and was ditching some things if he thought that they were not things that could ultimately be justified at the stage one example was the two child on child benefits. he said there, he was questioned by a member of the audience and said look, there were some things we like to do and simply can't at this stage. meanwhile rishi sunak, he also has the conservative a ia year record that they can be challenged on. how did he handle that during the live event? ., ., .,, did he handle that during the live event? ., ., ., event? you heard the most sort of, hardest, event? you heard the most sort of, hardest. sore _ event? you heard the most sort of, hardest, sore point— event? you heard the most sort of, hardest, sore point if— event? you heard the most sort of, hardest, sore point if you _ event? you heard the most sort of, hardest, sore point if you like, - event? you heard the most sort of, hardest, sore point if you like, the | hardest, sore point if you like, the question chris highlighted in his report that you just heard from the foreman to my former conservative voters saying she was now struggling because of what had happened with the parties in downing street for mr sunak and borisjohnson both the parties in downing street for mr sunak and boris johnson both fine sunak and borisjohnson both fine for breaking the sunak and boris johnson both fine for breaking the law. there was that and other broken pledges. rishi sunak tackled that similarly to keir starmer but the mantra they keep repeating in this election campaign, which is to say look at my record, trust me for that rishi sunak wanted to say look at what he's done but since he's become prime minister and said he had keep delivering. there he came under real pressure from not only the audience but also from the host who took them through some of his pledges, particularly on things like stopping the boats. and picked apart how some of those had not been met. ., ~ apart how some of those had not been met. . ~ , ., apart how some of those had n