Campaigning, rishi sunak made it one of his stops on his Whistle Stop Tour of the uk and today, The Labour Leader keir starmer started off his day there. What did you make of what he was saying and what he was doing . Yes, and i think this is a signal, adam, of things to come, isnt it . Because theres been a lot of discussion about whether in this election, in particular the route to number ten might run through scotland, and in particular for sir keir, might run along the river clyde here in glasgow and the river clyde. In fact, that is it, isnt it . If youre watching, if youre not watching, theres a river behind me. Yeah, and what is why is that . Well, because about a decade ago, there was a big shift, a big, Big Shift In Support from labour to the snp. Labour for decades and decades would send dozens of mps from Scotland To Westminster at every election in the 2019 general election. How many mps did they return from scotland . One one. So keir starmer hopes to change that and theres some signs that hes right to be hopeful. If you look at the polls, which suggests that some of that snp support has been fading away in some of the Labour Support has been Building Back up. So thats why hes here to try to capitalise on that and in particular to try to win seats here in glasgow. Rishi sunak well, the conservatives have six seats in scotland at present, and i should say that some of them are not exactly the same as they were last time because there have been boundary changes, but nonetheless, they have six seats. And actually this might be one part of the uk where pollsters suggest the tories might not find their support slipping at this election. Obviously, its not a matter for the pollsters, its a matter for voters at the end of the day, but particularly in the North East Of Scotland and then down in the south of scotland, where those conservative seats are in this country, the tories are pretty hopeful that they might hang on to them, maybe even hopeful that theyll add a seat. And why is that, james . Why do you think theres that different dynamic in scotland than perhaps the polls might suggest elsewhere in the uk . I think theres two reasons. One, the union, the fact that the constitution and some of those areas particularly is still in play, particularly down on the border with england. And two, the issue of oil and gas in the north east and who is best placed to protect aberdeen and its status as the oil capital of europe at the same time as managing the transition towards renewable energy. Now, its not for me to say whether or not the tories actually are the authentic voice on either of those matters, but clearly they hope they can be. Other parties disagree, obviously. James, its so interesting that point about oil and gas workers because one of labours big pledges is about is about green energy and decarbonising the Energy Sector by 2030. Energy sector by 2030 in other words, taking the fossil fuels out of our Electricity Generation from our power stations. The conservatives attack that as an unrealistic goal that might cost a lot of Tax Taxpayers Money to get there. At least thats what the tory attack is kind of uk wide. But in Scotland Specificallym they say thats a Labour Threat but in scotland specifically, they say thats a Labour Threat tojobs in places like aberdeen where people work in the Oil And Gas Industry in their droves. Yes, and then theres an argument about the snps policy and the snp also, adam, treading a really fine line. I mean, oil in some ways was the fuel that drove the rise. Was the fuel that drove the rise in scottish nationalism way back in the 605 and into the 705 this idea that in the Famous Campaign phrase of the snp, its scotlands oil, and that if scotland had control over those resources, it could have been, as the snp will tell you until theyre blue in the face. It could have been like norway, if scotland has had control and had built up its own oil reserve it didnt. So it didnt. So, whether or not theyre right doesnt matter any more. But the issue still resonates and the snp are still pulled in both directions on that subject. And chris, we got such a good reminder of devolution and where power lies. When you were at that keir starmer event a few days ago where he unveiled his 6 1 steps of what Labour Government would do to achieve their five missions. Yeah, absolutely. You know, the nature of a devolved uk now is that many of the levers of Domestic Political Change should a government seek to change things. If youre sitting in westminster, those levers will only reach the borders of england and there will be decisions taken in those policy areas. In edinburgh for scotland, in cardiff for wales, and indeed then in belfast for Northern Ireland. And indeed, then in belfast for Northern Ireland not that the powers of those three devolved institutions are identical. But, yeah, you do get a sense of that all of the time and, and you get curious uses of words like country, nation and state, which all have particular definitions, but which are used often interchangeably, as if they all mean the same thing by politicians on occasion. And talking about constitutional affairs, obviously, james, the piece that you wrote about the snps election launch important policy things. But the thing ill really remember is just the bit you wrote with the start saying, oh, this election really took them by surprise, including the snps Press Officers who were running around quite a lot to make the event actually happen. Oh, my goodness. It was actual. It was quite chaotic, i must say, because this was in was in the grass market, which if anyone is familiar with edinburgh, its right in the heart of edinburgh down underneath the castle, ancient part of the city or famous old part of the city anyway. And we had so little notice, so little notice. How little . Just over an hour i think of the venue. Anyway, its not really fair to go into that. Well, maybe it is fair to go into the details, but i would say before i do that, ive had tussles with other Press Officers, from other parties. Of course. But on this occasion, i said to them, listen, its going to be a very long six weeks if we get an hours notice. Weve got a lot of resourcing issues with cameras all over the place. Weve got people up and the highlands covering the prime minister. You have to help us out. Yeah and they were running in as i was almost as i was seeing this with a yellow lectern running in, passed me with the lectern for the event and then they couldnt sort out the sound in time for the start of it. I mean, i think probably it took in the end when they put it on the telly. You are to have everything, the famously of grids, dont they . You both of you will know more about the grids than i do. Political parties always have grids for campaigns, as i understand it, with days pencilled in and ready to activate. So, i mean, maybe the snp did. I mean, to be fair, they did say to me, its day one, stay one. We didnt know he was going to call an election yesterday. Give us a break. Ill be better. Oh, tory, i wasnt using this as an opportunity to diss hardworking Press Officers of any political party, just like everyone� s been caught on the hop, including at the bbc. I mean, we onlyjust had our Newscast Election Graphics ready to go. Thatjust there and then luckily. Now, chris, lets go back to keir starmer because it was interesting just the rhythm of how these days work. Yesterday, it was rishi sunak doing all the Breakfast News Programmes and answering loads of questions. Today, it was keir starmer doing all the Breakfast News Programmes. But i noticed there was one question that pretty much every programme asked him, and it was along the lines of who are you really . Because at one point in your career you said x, and at this point in your career youre saying why. And here is how keir starmer answered that question when he was chatting to our colleagues on bbc breakfast. After the damage thats been done |to the economy and having costed| cutting tuition fees and having costed bringing down nhs Waiting Lists, im left with a choice, a political choice. I cant do both because the economy has been so badly damaged. Ive chosen that we will deall with the Waiting Lists and put the nhs back on its feet. Chris, give us your review of how keir starmer was doing on his Morning Round as we as we call it, in the trade. Yeah, i was struck by kind of one word, really, which was kind of caution. That was my word, not his, but just to sort of try and summarise his kind of posture, if you like, in those interviews. So, very aware of any kind of hostages to fortune, very aware of not saying anything that would set particular particular hares running, trying to explain away that familiar line of questioning which wont go away in this campaign, which is look at that list of things you campaigned on when you were running for The Labour Leadership and how come a whole lot of them have ended up in a skip. And therefore, why can we trust that what youre promising now is something that you will deliver . Thats the kind of reformulation of the sentence sentence of those kind of questions. And ive asked those questions myself, as have plenty of others. And his argument is about how things have changed since then, circumstances have changed. He was also talking to a different electorate then, wasnt he, because he was talking to Labour Party Members rather than the wider country. But he has to find an answer to that question that is sufficiently convincing to a sufficient number of people that that is not something that they are put off from. The other thing hes got to do, i think we were talking about this on Newscast Yesterday or the day before im losing track. But how do you do the whole change thing, which is the word that you see on every red placard and every lectern on the battle bus soon and all the rest of it. How do you do the change thing that sounds like it is something worth changing to from the perspective of a voter, whilst at the same time being sufficiently reassuring to recent conservative voters in particular that voting labour isnt in any kind of way frightening. So that can sometimes be about narrowing what people might perceive could be the change that might come, so thats a tricky kind of balancing act. I think the way hes trying to square that is talking about trying to be this kind of personification of the end of what he describes as the chaos of the last few years, assuming that there is a relatively small contingent of people who are sort of pro chaos, however, you kind of describe that. So, thats, ithink, kind of where he finds himself. I was intrigued in his interview on the today programme where he was asked by Michelle Hussain if he would be inclined to follow some of the european leaders who have said that their countries would recognise the state of palestine. That their countries would recognise the state of palestine, and he began an argument that sounded like the answer was yes. What he was saying very carefully was the logical conclusion of advocating a so called two State Solution that plenty of countries have advocated for many, many years, is that you would get to the point that there would be a palestinian state, cos that would be the other state alongside israel. But he was very careful to say youd have to seek an International Consensus. It would have to be a safe and secure israel. It would, in other words, take rather a long time. And i defer tojeremy bowen, to commentator on the middle east. But finding an International Consensus upon it i suspect would be rather difficult and take a long time. And therefore getting there, even though the answer sounded like yes, would probably in the short term at least least amount to a no. Im so sorry. I have to cough. Oh, james is having an on air coughing moment get that man a glass of water im so sorry, im so sorry. Its like this is behind the scenes. I love it. This is how the sausage is made on newscast. Chris, its interesting you mentioned his interview on the today programme with michelle hussein. I thought maybe that was keir starmer being slightly too thoughtful and honest for an Election Campaign because he was trying to answer her questions, which led him down some sort of non campaign talking points, kind of cul de sacs. And i was quite surprised because i thought normally at this point in an Election Campaign, its listen to the question, answer the question you want and answer it by talking about one of your key campaign pledges. I thought he was being a little bit a little bit too thoughtful, which obviously is what we want our politicians to be. But it was his message. Discipline might potentially be a little bit tougher as the campaign progresses. I suppose its an intriguing observation that, isnt it . But then equally, if you go back to your earlier question or thought when you were sort of summarising the line of questioning from plenty of interviewers this morning, alongside the kind of policies so, you have to use the campaign as a canvas on which to paint an image of yourself, and probably that means that on occasion. And probably, that means that on occasion. Erah, you have to do that thing where you are willing to sort of show an element of your workings in public and how you work through an argument. And i think he would make the case not spoken to his team to his team in particular, and i think he would make the case not spoken to his team in particular, about that particular conversation around the middle east, but that thats the kind of thing from his past as a lawyer and all the rest of it hes he would want to do, which is to set out the logic of an of an argument and do that in quite a sort of long long form kind of way. And therell be plenty more interviews with all the Party Leaders to look forward to, including some particularly in depth ones in prime time, i hope. James, what was the point you wanted to make about keir starmer . Sorry. Just in terms of the caution thing, there were a couple of things that struck me and one is about policy and the other one was a sort of behind the scenes sort of newscasters behind the scenes. So, the first one is that in terms of policy, caution is obviously. You can understand why sir keir starmer thinks caution is sensible, but that caution learns differently, arguably in different parts of the uk. So if youre looking at scotland where he is, you might argue, trying to win back a lot of more left wing voters whod moved to the snp a decade ago. And hes saying things like, were going to stick to the tory Spending Plans for the public services, were going to bring Down Immigration he doesnt say like the conservatives, but like the conservatives. And we are going to continue some of the controversial Welfare Policies of the conservative government of rishi sunak. Then you get to the point where caution might begin to be a bit damaging for you and allow i mean, i put this question to him today, allow his opponents to suggest that hes actually and its a phrase that theyve used the tory in disguise. Thats the one thing. The behind the scenes thing about caution, i think is interesting. The morning the Morning Round, as you were saying, of interviews that you talk about, he did them from this building from the bbc scotland headquarters here. He did, i think, six and all of them were with programmes in england. Good Morning Scotland On Radio scotland wanted to get into a load of the detail of scottish issues at length with him and he said well, his team said no. They interestingly when he was on the today programme, the presenters of Good Morning Scotland could see him through the glass. So, i can imagine they were not delighted because they tried desperately trying so he wouldnt go on. He didnt go on good morning, scotland. No, he didnt do any any long form scottish interviews that i know of. No, he didnt do any any long form scottish interviews that i know of that stand to be corrected. The bbc will at some point during the campaign, but then the Newspaper Reporters at the event. He was also reminded that i hesitate to call it an interview because when i grabbed a quick clip with him at the end, i was told you can have one question. Thats not an interview, is it . When i grabbed three, really . But even thats not a proper you know, we all know weve done this. We know how it works. This is not unique to labour at all. This attempt to control the message and then the Newspaper Reporters who actually quite had quite a long time with him in a room, maybe, maybe 40, 45 minutes, they were saying, well, thats all very well, but we got one question but we got one question each as well. Thank you for peeling back the curtain, pacific quay. James, ill let you get on with your weekend, which i know is probably doing loads more work, but thanks. Im golfing. Im sorry. All right. See you later. Thanks, adam. Chris, sticking with labour related things, and of course, well be talking about all the Po