Today . Continues, where are you off to toda . ,. ,. , continues, where are you off to toda . ,. ,. ,. , continues, where are you off to toda . ,. , today . Good morning. Northern ireland is a today . Good morning. Northern ireland is a bit today . Good morning. Northern ireland is a bit of today . Good morning. Northern ireland is a bit of a today . Good morning. Northern ireland is a bit of a strange ireland is a bit of a strange choice, some might think that the Prime Minister, given that conservatives dont have any mps he and they normally dont stand in some seats. But he is trying to get round the country as quickly as possible to set out his agenda and try and grab the narrative. I think there is a question about how the campaign is going for rishi sunak so far. Apart from the wet weather we saw in Downing Street on thursday, wednesday, sorry when he called the general election. There have been a few things that have been a bit awkward for the Prime Minister over the last couple of days. The fact he has had to admit there are wanda scheme will not take off before the general election. The smoking ban, the thing he keeps talking about is a potential legacy shelled. Naked might be back with us. I can see you, but you were cut off in your prime, so continue if see you, but you were cut off in your prime, so continue if you see you, but you were cut off in your prime, so continue if you can hear me . It your prime, so continue if you can hear me . , my your prime, so continue if you can hear me . Your prime, so continue if you can hearme . , ,. , hear me . It is tricky because we are on a bus through hear me . It is tricky because we are on a bus through northern hear me . It is tricky because we are on a bus through Northern Ireland. | on a bus through Northern Ireland. The reception is a bit dodgy. Let me try and persevere. The question i think some conservatives will be asking themselves this morning is also rishi sunak is out and about making the most of his head start in this campaign, is he doing enough to make up the massive gap in the polls . There has been bad news, there are wanda scheme, no fault evictions will not be banned, the smoking ban is nice and until after the general election. That was supposed to be one of his big legacies. But, the question will be is he getting out . Is he speaking to enough normal people . Quite often, general Election Campaigns are pretty choreographed, trying to look good, trying to meet people that will make you look good. But rishi sunak has to get out and meet some voters, it has been about getting around the country, being seen to be on the front foot. The question is, will it be enough over the next six weeks to make up the massive gap in the polls . For weeks to make up the massive gap in the olls . ,. ,. , ~ , weeks to make up the massive gap in the olls . ,. ,. , ~ i. The polls . For now, thank you. Good to have you the polls . For now, thank you. Good to have you there. The polls . For now, thank you. Good to have you there. We the polls . For now, thank you. Good to have you there. We will the polls . For now, thank you. Good to have you there. We will be to have you there. We will be checking in with you throughout the day. That is nick eardley out and about with the Prime Minister. As we said, he is visiting all four corners of the uk to drum up votes ahead of the election. This talk about some of the issues in Northern Ireland. We can speak to our political reporter, Brendan Hughes in belfast. Nick outlining some of the challenges for the Prime Minister but up to me but the issues that will affect voters in Northern Ireland festival and what may be rishi sunak can do when he continues the tour later today . I rishi sunak can do when he continues the tour later today . The tour later today . I think it is worth reflecting the tour later today . I think it is worth reflecting that the tour later today . I think it is worth reflecting that in the tour later today . I think it is i worth reflecting that in Northern Ireland the Prime Minister and the conservative party dont have much skin in the game. That is because the conservative party doesnt run many candidates in Northern Ireland and when it has, it hasnt had much success in that respect either. Because if we look back at the Last Westminster election in 2019, the track to lee mack with his every party ran for candidates and they managed to secure a grand total of less than 1 of the overall vote share in Northern Ireland. As for the other major parties within the uk, the likes of the labour party, they have a policy of not running candidates in Northern Ireland and the lib dems dont run any candidates here either. In terms of a Six Week Campaign while the Prime Minister may be interested in some of the issues in Northern Ireland and he is making his way to Northern Ireland as we speak. In terms of the campaign, there isnt much reason for rishi sunak to spend much time in Northern Ireland because there is simply not any seats in it for him. You talk about why he may be there, but looking at some of the responses from the other parties in Northern Ireland saying, this is the opportunity to send a different balance of representation to westminster. That will be the key, about the representation of the nation to westminster to strike the right balance, better balance in their view . Right balance, better balance in their view . ,. ,. , their view . Yes, in Northern Ireland we have a devolved their view . Yes, in Northern Ireland we have a devolved executive their view . Yes, in Northern Ireland we have a devolved executive and i we have a devolved executive and assembly, so many of the issues the likes of sir keir starmer and rishi sunak will be discussing on the Campaign Trailand hmi, the sunak will be discussing on the Campaign Trail and hmi, the likes of education, health and schools and infrastructure, though sorts of things are dealt with on a devolved level in Northern Ireland because we have a Legislative Assembly and executive here. In terms of the Westminster Campaign in Northern Ireland, we have a different set of parties than the ones you will see on the national picture. For them it is about representation of issues relating to Northern Ireland In Westminster. We have, if you look back at the results from the 2019 westminster election, if you look at how the parties fed here, the Democratic Unionist Party or dup, came out on top with eight seats, followed closely by sinn fein, an irish republican party, they want to see Northern Ireland break away from the union and join up with the irish republic. They received seven seats in the Last Westminster election. The other seats of the 18 constituencies in Northern Ireland were taken up by the Social Democratic And Labour Party and they achieved two seats and then the Cross Community Alliance Party, which doesnt have a position on the constitutional future of Northern Ireland, they achieved one seat in the Last Westminster election. So for them it is about holding the seats they have and they want to try and increase that representation at westminster. 0ne and increase that representation at westminster. One of the issues we will be looking out for is whether sinn fein can complete the hat trick and become the Largest Party at westminster as well as at Assembly Level and that local government level. Back in the Assembly Elections in 2022, sinn fein, for the first time, became the Largest Party at stormont. And last year in Council Elections it overtook the dup again to become the Largest Party a local council level. They will be looking to do the treble in relation to westminster this time round and the dup will be coming under some pressure because at the moment they are still reeling from the Shock Resignation of their now former leader, Sirjeffrey Donaldson. He is currently facing charges of serious Sexual Misconduct which are being tried through the courts now. He will not be standing in his seat of lagan valley, which he held for 27 years. He strenuously contest those charges against him and he will be focusing on that through the court. The dup have to regroup following that Shock Resignation of Sirjeffrey Donaldson in march and for the now Interim Leader of the dup, Gavin Robinson, while trying to steady the ship in relation to his party only weeks into the job as Interim Leader, relation to his party only weeks into thejob as Interim Leader, he is now facing a battle on his hands to try and maintain his seat as east belfast mp. To try and maintain his seat as east belfast me belfast mp. You are right, of those 18 seats, belfast mp. You are right, of those 18 seats. The belfast mp. You are right, of those 18 seats, the dup belfast mp. You are right, of those 18 seats, the dup with belfast mp. You are right, of those 18 seats, the dup with the belfast mp. You are right, of those 18 seats, the dup with the most, l 18 seats, the dup with the most, eight, but with the departure of sir jeffrey donaldson, now seven. There is a question he will run in his place and the deadline to nominate candidates is four oclock on the 7th ofjune, they have not got much time to do so . Yes 7th ofjune, they have not got much time to do so . 7th ofjune, they have not got much time to do so . Yes and very much the a is time to do so . Yes and very much the party is remaining time to do so . Yes and very much the party is remaining tightlipped time to do so . Yes and very much the party is remaining tightlipped as party is remaining tight lipped as to who their candidate could be. The two front runners in the race to be the candidate would be a little pengelly. She is currently the Deputy First Minister in the Power Sharing Northern Ireland executive. The other candidate that is being considered is poll given, the Education Minister in the stormont executive. If any of them were to step into the role in lagan valley in the selection, that could potentially, if they manage to retain that seat, that could potentially lead to another problem for the dup because they have to find another minister for that executive, for the ministerial role within the executive as well as a new mla in lagan valley. Those are the sorts of challenges the party will be facing. We have the likes of the Alliance Party that is a Cross Community that doesnt have a position on the constitutional question. They are challenging the dup in some constituencies, not least east belfast, where Interim Leader of the dup, Gavin Robinson, hold that seat. The Alliance Party naomi long, took Gavin Robinson close to the wire in the 2019 westminster election. It was around 1800 votes in it whenever the votes were counted on 2019. It is whether naomi wants to run again and if she wins the seat she would have to give up wins the seat she would have to give up her position in the Power Sharing executive as justice up her position in the Power Sharing executive asjustice minister. It is a position she wants to hold onto so it is a conundrum for both parties as to who their candidate will be. All to play for, thank you very much. Now, Jeremy Corbyn, a former Labour Leader has announced he will stand as an independent candidate at the general election. It is a move that is likely to cause division. He was blocked from standing for the labour party after complaints of his partys handling of anti semitism. What does sir keir starmer make of his predecessors trish to stand . That is a matter forjeremy, his predecessors trish to stand . That is a matterforjeremy, he has made his mind up about that. We will have an excellent Labour Candidate in Islington North, as we have excellent Labour Candidates across the country. In the end, this election is about a choice, choice of, you know, five more years of the chaos and division that we have seen over the last 11t years or turning the page and rebuilding our country with labour. That is what is on the ballot paper, whether it is in Islington North or anywhere else across the country. Irate Islington North or anywhere else across the country. We understand ou want across the country. We understand you want to across the country. We understand you want to turn across the country. We understand you want to turn a across the country. We understand you want to turn a page across the country. We understand you want to turn a page and across the country. We understand you want to turn a page and make | across the country. We understand l you want to turn a page and make a change you want to turn a page and make a change but you want to turn a page and make a change but one of the criticisms of Labour Change but one of the criticisms of Labour Over Change but one of the criticisms of labour over the past three years, you are labour over the past three years, you are a labour over the past three years, you are a party which is divided. Is that a you are a party which is divided. Is that a world you are a party which is divided. Is that a world in which you can contact that a world in which you can contactJeremy Corbyn that a world in which you can contact Jeremy Corbyn and say, please contact Jeremy Corbyn and say, please stand out because the Liberal Democrats please stand out because the Liberal Democrats could win this seat . This is a change democrats could win this seat . This is a change labour democrats could win this seat . Try 3 is a change labour party. We are united in understanding that only parties which are strong on the economy, on our defence, on security and borders are trusted by the british public. 0nly parties that have an absolute clarity about the missions they want to achieve in government. In my case, ensuring weve got Economic Growth that is felt across the whole country, that we have an nhs, notjust back on its feet but fit for the future. But we have clean power by 2030, Great British energy. Just have clean power by 2030, Great British energy. British energy. Just briefly. Grove it is british energy. Just briefly. Grove it is a british energy. Just briefly. Grove it is a change british energy. Just briefly. Grove it is a change labour british energy. Just briefly. I grove it is a change labour party. What grove it is a change labour party. What is grove it is a change labour party. What is important as part of the change. What is important as part of the change. Is what is important as part of the change, is the unity within the party change, is the unity within the party and change, is the unity within the party and we know there are some senior party and we know there are some senior members, Angela Rayner and harriet senior members, Angela Rayner and Harriet Harman who would like to see diane Harriet Harman who would like to see diane abbott reinstated. Is it time to do diane abbott reinstated. Is it time to do that . She has apologised and said she to do that . She has apologised and said she has made a mistake, bring her back said she has made a mistake, bring her back for said she has made a mistake, bring her back for the election . Her back for the election . Firstly, i can tell her back for the election . Firstly, i can tell you. Her back for the election . Firstly, i can tell you, there her back for the election . Firstly, i can tell you, there is her back for the election . Firstly, i can tell you, there is incrediblel i can tell you, there is incredible support in the labour party for what we are trying to achieve amongst our members, activists and voters. If you look at the last local election results, we had a by election with a massive swing to labour in blackpool, 11 out of 12 mayoralty is. The idea that is a momentum behind this labour party, this changed Labour Party Needs to be seenin changed Labour Party Needs to be seen in that context. But the question of diane abbott or any other individual, obviously that is subject to party processes. They will be resolved pretty soon because the candidates have to be, the final list, i should say, has to be announced within a relatively few number of days. That will be a matter for the National Executive committee. What i am focused on is the argument that we need to take to the argument that we need to take to the country now over the next six weeks about the choice. Because the power of the vote is with those watching your programme and i would say, if you want change, and i think many people do after 11t years of failure, you have to vote for it. Just to be clear, that was keir starmer speaking to breakfast a little early, not live as you saw on the screen. But the responses to some of the key questions of the day for the Labour Leader. Lets discuss it with a Political Correspondent In Westminster. Lets start first festival with the newJeremy Corbyn will stand as an independent. We heard keir starmer saying it is fine, he can make his choice. But it does make things slightly more complicated for labour in Islington North . It complicated for labour in Islington North . , g , complicated for labour in Islington North . , ,. , complicated for labour in Islington North . , , north . It does, Jeremy Corbyn has been the mp north . It does, Jeremy Corbyn has been the mp there north . It does, Jeremy Corbyn has been the mp there 1983. North . It does, Jeremy Corbyn has been the mp there 1983. He north . It does, Jeremy Corbyn has been the mp there 1983. He has i north . It does, Jeremy Corbyn has been the mp there 1983. He has a| been the mp there 1983. He has a large following bear, so having him stand as an independent against them is clearly not great news for the labour party. We had sir keir starmer� s response, Jeremy Corbyn also announced this morning in an interview with the islington tribune, he will stand as an independent and in doing so, he said he would be defending the alternatives to what he called to the conservative government. The alternative would include things like publicly owned services and removing the two Child Benefit Cap which are things that keir starmer has ruled out, the two Child Benefit Cap is something they would like to do but they cannot afford to. He has an ounce by taking a swipe at some of those current labour policies. Lets talk about what might happen In Westminster, there is a rush to push through legislation. To admitted the timing is about what we might expect to see in the coming hours . This timing is about what we might expect to see in the coming hours . To see in the coming hours . This is the last day to see in the coming hours . This is the last day to to see in the coming hours . This is the last day to be to see in the coming hours . This is the last day to be up to see in the coming hours . This is the last day to be up to to see in the coming hours . This is the last day to be up to Push The Last Day to be up to push legislation to parliament. After that it will be prorogued, temporarily suspended and next week it will be dissolved and mp5. Being mps. It is the last opportunity to get legislation through. The government and the Opposition Have Beenin government and the opposition have been in negotiations working out which bills they can fast track and get into law by the end of today. There are some which are likely to pass, things like the victims and prisoners bill which would set up the Compensation Body to pay victims of the infected blood scandal. The Leasehold Reform Bill is also expected or likely to pass. That is the one that will stop any new houses being sold as leaseholds and not flats. There are a couple of things in the agenda which are not going to happen, they will not pass. The renters reform bill is one, that is the bill that would have put an end to the so called no fault of fictions where a landlord cant evict a tenant without giving them a reason. That is not going to become law. Also the tobacco elevate bill. Rishi sunak� s belt would have been cutting edge legislation which would have stopped anybody born from 2009 onwards being able to legally buy cigarettes. That will not happen. Government sources said they Ran Out Of Time and rishi sunak is still committed to the idea. That was auoin to committed to the idea. That was going to be committed to the idea. That was going to be one committed to the idea. That was going to be one of committed to the idea. That was going to be one of his committed to the idea. That was going to be one of his legacies, l going to be one of his legacies, wasnt it and he has staked his future on being able to get that through. Looking at conservative sources who said he has won the argument on that, if hes re elected he will bring it back. But labour say are committed to it as well and they will be hopes of Cross Party Consensus after the election. This is something that might happen regardless of who ends up in number ten injuly . It regardless of who ends up in number ten in jul . ,. , regardless of who ends up in number ten injul . , ~ ten in july . It sounds like it could. Ten in july . It sounds like it could we ten in july . It sounds like it could. We will ten in july . It sounds like it could. We will have ten in july . It sounds like it could. We will have to ten in july . It sounds like it could. We will have to see l ten in july . It sounds like it could. We will have to see what goes into the manifestos, but the government is speaking towards the fact rishi sunak spoke about this, the smoke Free Generation in his speech, calling the election on wednesday and that proved his commitment to getting that through. And the parts of the reason they couldnt push it through on this particular way, the washer period, as it is known is because while labour had vowed to back it, they were going to let their mps to do to. The conservatives have given their mps a free vote because they are a number of conservative mps who dont like this idea orjust dont think it would work. So they say technically, it is harder to try and do that with a free vote. So they are saying it is part of the reason why it Ran Out Of Time. Why it Ran Out Of Time. There has been a frenzy why it Ran Out Of Time. There has been a frenzy in why it Ran Out Of Time. There has been a frenzy in terms why it Ran Out Of Time. There has been a frenzy in terms of been a frenzy in terms of campaigning in the last two days, only on day two in what could turn out to be quite a long Election Campaign. We have seen both keir starmer and Rishi Sunak Out and about and the other Party Leaders. Some describing rishi sunak� s approach as president ial and they are talking about a tv debate. Neither of them shying away from it but we dont have any details or confirmation that it will happen just yet . Confirmation that it will happen ust et . ,. , � confirmation that it will happen ust et . , confirmation that it will happen ust et . ,. , � , just yet . No, we dont. It comes up in every election, just yet . No, we dont. It comes up in every election, these just yet . No, we dont. It comes up in every election, these tv just yet . No, we dont. It comes up in every election, these tv debate | in every election, these tv debate started in 2010 and each election since. There has tended to be a bit of the campaign where one has accused the other of being frightened of doing it and are they going to take part . What we have on day two is a commitment from both rishi sunak and keir starmer to doing some tv debates. Rishi sunak is trying to come if you like, Go Keir Starmer into doing more them. Of keir starmer saying he wants to 0f keir starmer saying he wants to spend more time speaking to voters. But there is that commitment to do two of them but we dont know if they will happen and when they will be. ,. ,. ,. ,. , they will happen and when they will be. ,. ,. ,. Be. Helen, good to talk to. We will check in with be. Helen, good to talk to. We will check in with you be. Helen, good to talk to. We will check in with you later, be. Helen, good to talk to. We will check in with you later, but be. Helen, good to talk to. We will check in with you later, but thank. Check in with you later, but thank you very much. Lets talk about some of the changes we might expect in the selection. Remember changes to boundaries where proposed and approved by the Boundaries Commission and that basically changes the shape of some constituencies. It is designed to represent the population changes more closely when it comes to the vote. Lets talk to rowan bridge by the seaside in lancashire. The new constituency of blackpool nor fleetwood, which would have been a marginal Conservative Seat at the 2019 election. Good to have you in cleveleys. Give us a sense of what those changes could mean, this is a new constituency so what are the key issues for people there . Yes. Constituency so what are the key issues for people there . Issues for people there . Yes, i should say issues for people there . Yes, i should say they issues for people there . Yes, i should say they slightly issues for people there . Yes, i should say they slightly change issues for people there . Yes, i should say they slightly change the boundaries of the blackpool north sea. Blackpool loafers interesting, because it is effectively predicted the outcome of the election successfully since 1979. However when the blackpool no seat has gone on to win Downing Street. That makes it a Must Win Seat for keir starmer. The constituency itself, as you say, there have been slight changes to there have been slight changes to the boundaries but it runs now from the boundaries but it runs now from the tip of blackpool result, through cleveleys, where i am now. You can see the beach surrounding me. Up to what was traditionally the fishing town of fleetwood in the north, which has been added to the constituency. Fleetwood is best known these days as the home of fishermans friend which is still produced there. It is a Must Win Seat for both keir starmer and rishi sunak. If you are talking about the issues that affect people here, some of them are universal themes. For example, The Cost Of Living in particular is a major issue in somewhere like blackpool and parts of the blackpool constituency that have taken in here because it is an economy largely based on tourism and hospitality, somewhere where wages have traditionally been low to The Cost Of Living has affected people. Also something that particularly affects some parts of blackpool is theissue affects some parts of blackpool is the issue around housing. There are particular issues around the quality of housing and availability. It doesntjust of housing and availability. It doesnt just affect blackpool of housing and availability. It doesntjust affect blackpool but is felt acutely around here. Further north around fleetwood, the economy is a major issue and lack of opportunity or the feeling of a lack of opportunity people have got. They are looking for progress on the economy. As i say, a Must Win Seat and Blackpool South, three weeks ago labour took Blackpool South from the conservatives on 26 swing, something keir starmer was just talking about. It is worth noting it was a by election and the turnout was a by election and the turnout was lower than you will get in a general election. People are paying far less attention to that whether they would vote locally or in a general election. I wouldnt necessarily see that as predicted. At the 10 swing is what labour need here and a 12. 5 swing nationally to take Downing Street, so this will be a constituency to watch over the next few weeks. It a constituency to watch over the next few weeks. A constituency to watch over the next few weeks. It is, in the last election we next few weeks. It is, in the last election we heard next few weeks. It is, in the last election we heard a next few weeks. It is, in the last election we heard a lot next few weeks. It is, in the last election we heard a lot about. Next few weeks. It is, in the last| election we heard a lot about the phrase levelling up and it was particularly focused in some areas in the north of england and coastal areas which have been deprived for so long. We touched on some of the issues there, housing and health care. Coastal Community Say they need more money and support, what sense do you get from voters about whether that is being felt in some of these coastal areas . It is interesting. Of these coastal areas . It is interesting. If of these coastal areas . It is interesting. If you of these coastal areas . It is interesting. If you go of these coastal areas . It 3 interesting. If you go down the seafront to blackpool, there has been a lot of investment into blackpool over recent years. But there has also been controversy over where the money has gone. A lot has been spent on the seafront and that is obvious, you see new sea defences, but there is a feeling amongst some of the constituents, that money hasnt gone into the rest of blackpool, the town itself. If you go further north into fleetwood, they feel very much they have been left behind by that sort of Levelling Up Agenda. Part of the problem is, it is a much smaller area so it doesnt have the economic toll that somewhere like blackpool does and places like that feel the Levelling Up Agenda hasnt reach them in the way that they wish it would. , them in the way that they wish it would. ,. ,. ,. , them in the way that they wish it would. ,. ,. ,. , would. Really good to talk to you, thank ou would. Really good to talk to you, thank you and would. Really good to talk to you, thank you and we would. Really good to talk to you, thank you and we will would. Really good to talk to you, thank you and we will be would. Really good to talk to you, thank you and we will be back would. Really good to talk to you, | thank you and we will be back with you later. You have a busy day ahead of you in cleveleys. Lets talk some more about some constituents that have changed hands recently. We can talk to a former gloucester live report from cheltenham and james robinson, a local democracy reporter covering northumberland, hexham. There is so much to talk about in terms of how the constituency has changed hands, what are we expecting the polls to look like going into this election where you are . Normally you would expect a tight battle here between the lib dems and the tories. This is traditionally a true blue seat, very much a conservative stronghold going down the years from the second world war. In fact, the tories held it almost entirely after the war until 1992 when the Liberal Democrats won it. They held onto it for 23 years until alex chalkie, the sitting mp here won it in 2015. He has held onto it, onlyjust won it in 2015. He has held onto it, only just at the last election, won it in 2015. He has held onto it, onlyjust at the last election, only by 981 votes. He would think it would be very close battle between those two main parties. Labour come into it here normally, but never say never. ,. , into it here normally, but never say never. , , never. Yes, so stay with us, rob. I want to talk never. Yes, so stay with us, rob. I want to talk to never. Yes, so stay with us, rob. I want to talk to james never. Yes, so stay with us, rob. I want to talk to james and never. Yes, so stay with us, rob. I want to talk to james and we never. Yes, so stay with us, rob. I want to talk to james and we will l want to talk to james and we will head up to northumberland. James, what is the picture where you are . Am i right in saying that labour hope to regain this from the conservatives . In hope to regain this from the conservatives . Hope to regain this from the conservatives . ,. , conservatives . In hexham, the tories have held it conservatives . In hexham, the tories have held it forever. Conservatives . In hexham, the tories have held it forever. I conservatives . In hexham, the tories have held it forever. I have conservatives . In hexham, the tories have held it forever. I have been have held it forever. I have been speaking have held it forever. I have been speaking to labour figures and they are fairly speaking to labour figures and they are fairly confident but not complacent, is the message that they can take complacent, is the message that they can take the seat for the first time in its can take the seat for the first time in its history. Things like brexit have in its history. Things like brexit have had in its history. Things like brexit have had an effect, a lot of farmers in this have had an effect, a lot of farmers in this area have had an effect, a lot of farmers in this area and a lot of changes in that sector in this area and a lot of changes in that sector but they are confident the local that sector but they are confident the local mp is banging on the drum hard for the local mp is banging on the drum hard for his the local mp is banging on the drum hard for his record, has been in since hard for his record, has been in since 2010 hard for his record, has been in since 2010 so he will be hoping he can keep since 2010 so he will be hoping he can keep hold of the seat. Since 2010 so he will be hoping he can keep hold of the seat. James, of ust talkin can keep hold of the seat. James, of just talking to can keep hold of the seat. James, of just talking to a can keep hold of the seat. James, of just talking to a report can keep hold of the seat. James, of just talking to a report in just talking to a report in blackpool know about the changes to the boundaries and that is relevant to where you are . That the boundaries and that is relevant to where you are . To where you are . That is right, ust to where you are . That is right, just across to where you are . That is right, just across the to where you are . That is right, just across the county to where you are . That is right, just across the county in to where you are . That is right, just across the county in blyth l to where you are . That is right, i just across the county in blyth and ashington, just across the county in blyth and ashington, two seats that have chopped ashington, two seats that have chopped and changed and ashington and blyth seat and killingworth, the real interesting will be in ashington and blyth. 0ne real interesting will be in ashington and blyth. One is held by labour, ashington and blyth. One is held by labour, Ian Ashington and blyth. One is held by labour, ian laid the re but blyth valley labour, ian laid the re but blyth valley was held by ian levy for the conservative. He is not standing, is standing conservative. He is not standing, is standing somewhere else and his wife is standing standing somewhere else and his wife is standing in ashington and blyth. Labour is standing in ashington and blyth. Labour are is standing in ashington and blyth. Labour are very hopeful they can take the labour are very hopeful they can take the seat back and complete a clean take the seat back and complete a clean sweep across the county. Let� s clean sweep across the county. Lets had to rope clean sweep across the county. Lets had to rope in clean sweep across the county. Let� s had to rope in gloucestershire. In cheltenham, i am had to rope in gloucestershire. In cheltenham, iam right had to rope in gloucestershire. In cheltenham, i am right in saying it is the same two candidates battling it out in the selection, so nothing has changed on that score, so it will be an interesting comparison that what happened last time . It is. That what happened last time . It is, absolutel. That what happened last time . It is, absolutely. Alex that what happened last time . It is, absolutely. Alex chalkie that what happened last time . It 3 absolutely. Alex chalkie who has made a good careerfor himself, worked his way up to the Lord Chancellor and also justice secretary. He has held the seat since 2015. Clung on to it in 2019. He will face a candidate by the name of Max Wilkinson for the Liberal Democrats, a formerjournalist and they both live in cheltenham with their families and you know, both of their families and you know, both of their parties are seeing this marginal seat is absolutely crucial to how they do overall. Particularly the conservatives, if they lose cheltenham, which is to be a stronghold for them, as they did in the 80s quite a few times, then things will be looking grim for them. , ,. ,. , things will be looking grim for them. ,. ,. ,. , them. People will know cheltenham of course for the them. People will know cheltenham of course for the race them. People will know cheltenham of course for the race course them. People will know cheltenham of course for the race course and them. People will know cheltenham of course for the race course and they course for the race course and they know also nice housing but you know the patch so well, tell me what cheltenham is all about and what of the key issues people worry about . In a sense which is the back drop a because it is aesthetically nice. It is a classic 19th century building, the Pittville Pump Room in one of the Pittville Pump Room in one of the towns wonderful parts. It is a large time, a growing town, changing town and not all about lovely buildings and the world famous racecourse. It has got its share of problems and talking to people here about what they want to hear from the parties, what the issues are, they tell me really it is all the National Issues that everybody else is talking about, housing, jobs, immigration, the nhs, The Cost Of Living and the economy, tax, green issues, net zero, all these things up issues, net zero, all these things up and down the uk is talking about. Rather than cheltenham specific issues. The same old thing about people tend to vote nationally, think nationally rather than on the local level when it comes to the general election. Lets head back to northumberland. James, i was out and about in the country in the last election and i was up in blyth and people were promised a lot. I wonder if they feel any of that has been delivered since 2019 and what has changed in the region in terms of promises made by westminster . It is the region in terms of promises made by westminster . By westminster . It is a complicated cuestion. By westminster . It is a complicated question a by westminster . It is a complicated question a lot by westminster . It is a complicated question. A lot has by westminster . It is a complicated question. A lot has happened by westminster . It is a complicated question. A lot has happened in question. A lot has happened in blyth question. A lot has happened in blyth that people will welcome. There blyth that people will welcome. There is blyth that people will welcome. There is a very new, high Tech Training there is a very new, high Tech Training centre for people to get into the Training Centre for people to get into the clean energy sector. There is a new into the clean energy sector. There is a new cultural hub on the way. But something that people are really disappointed by is the fact there is a battery disappointed by is the fact there is a Battery Plant planned for building electric a Battery Plant planned for building Electric Car Batteries that were slated Electric Car Batteries that were slated to Electric Car Batteries that were slated to provide Thousands Ofjobs and that slated to provide Thousands Ofjobs and that hasnt happened. It is going and that hasnt happened. It is going to and that hasnt happened. It is going to be replaced by an Ai Data Centre going to be replaced by an Ai Data Centre which has not got the same amount centre which has not got the same amount of centre which has not got the same amount ofjobs. Still promising investment and after a lot of false Storms Investment and after a lot of false storms people are sceptical. That will be storms people are sceptical. That will be the storms people are sceptical. That will be the thing people are holding on to, will be the thing people are holding on to, things that havent happened. We will on to, things that havent happened. We will keep a close eye on these constituencies. It reminds us there are so many individual stories at play ahead of this action. Rob jenkins and cheltenham and james in hexham, thank you for your time. Lets talk now to Catherine Adam from the institute of government. Good to have you with us. I want to talk to you about the logistics, about what happens next. There is not much time In Westminster to get things through. Explain what will happen in the hours to come. This is the final day happen in the hours to come. This is the final day in happen in the hours to come. This is the final day in which happen in the hours to come. This is the final day in which parliament the final day in which parliament will meet. This was a choice for the Prime Minister in terms of the date of the election and also only having two days of a warship period, the chance that parliament has to push through and rush through final legislation. And so because it is so tight it means the government is having to make hard choices in their negotiations with the opposition, primarily with labour about what they can push through in that time. Really having to pinpoint which bills they want to get through. It also means some mps who may have been expecting to sit in the commons until may be the autumn could find out that today is their last day. That is the ones who are standing down or the ones who dont get elected in july. Down or the ones who dont get Elected Injuly. Irate down or the ones who dont get Elected Injuly down or the ones who dont get elected in july. Down or the ones who dont get elected in jul. ~. ,. ,. ,. , elected in july. We have heard a lot of frustration elected in july. We have heard a lot of frustration amongst elected in july. We have heard a lotj of frustration amongst conservative mps about that. Tracey crouch who used to be the minister for sport, one of the bills that will not get pastis one of the bills that will not get past is around football regulations. She is talking about not having the six months she thought she was going to have before she steps down. We have been hearing in the last couple of days of more mps are choosing to step down and, yes, they would have had to say goodbye to each other. They have also got very little time to continue any constituency business. They cease to be mps next thursday. They will not have access to the parliamentary estate and their e mails and similarly select committees in the middle of all sorts of inquiries are now having to rush those through. It is all part and parcel of what happens when you get an early election. It is a feature of how it operates, but it does mean a massive scramble at this point in time. B, does mean a massive scramble at this point in time point in time. A lot of people will look at these point in time. A lot of people will look at these pictures point in time. A lot of people will look at these pictures of point in time. A lot of people will look at these pictures of the look at these pictures of the leaders on the Campaign Trail and say what happens In Westminster now untiljuly . We know the candidates will be out trying to drum up votes, but does the Civil Service continue . What is the normal business that goes on behind the scenes . Parliament stops and parliament ceases to exist effectively even though the lords continue to be members of the house of lords. There are no mps and we cannot legislate. But, yes, Civil Service continues, government continues and ministers continue to be ministers. But they go into a period of restrictions on government activity, a Caretaker Government activity, a Caretaker Government if you will. The government if you will. The government is not expected to initiate any new business, they are not allowed to use the Government Machine for anything that might be seen as campaigning, so you will see no tweets coming out, no Pr Announcements or anything like that. And they have to be very careful and cautious about what they are doing in government. It does mean if there is any crisis or emergency we do have ministers in place and they can act, but by and large a lot of the Civil Service will be keeping things ticking over and for a few of them thinking about the election result and thinking about the different outcomes that could incur, including the potential for a outcomes that could incur, including the Potentialfor A Change of government. The potential for a change of government. The potential for a change of covernment. ,. ,. , government. Stay with us, i want to show viewers government. Stay with us, i want to show viewers what government. Stay with us, i want to show viewers what we government. Stay with us, i want to show viewers what we are government. Stay with us, i want to show viewers what we are waiting. Show viewers what we are waiting for. That is glasgow where we are expecting the Labour Leader, sir keir starmer, to speak. He is visiting glasgow and he will talk about scottish labours general Election Campaign. We will keep a close eye on that and take you there live as soon as he starts talking. Catherine adam is still with us from the institute of government. Talk to me now about candidate selection. We know so many mps are standing down at this election, higher than in previous elections, particularly as far as the conservatives are concerned. What is the logistics about Naming Candidates and getting them on the ballot paper. This about Naming Candidates and getting them on the ballot paper. Them on the ballot paper. This is alwa s them on the ballot paper. This is always true them on the ballot paper. This is always true when them on the ballot paper. This is always true when there them on the ballot paper. This is always true when there is them on the ballot paper. This is always true when there is an always true when there is an election called early and we saw it in 2017, but not the scale of mps stepping down. You are also talking about the boundary review, so that means the vast majority of seats are slightly changing so people are operating in slightly different constituencies, environments than previously. There are a lot of changes going on. By and large, this does benefit the central party. They get a lot more control over who the candidates are. You can apply and you have got 48 hours and by and large they can often say to constituents this has to be your candidate. That gives both parties a lot of opportunities to parachute people in. It is obviously frustrating for local associations. It is a massive logistical operation, but parties are quite used to it and they would have been preparing for this eventuality. That is the parties preparing for this eventuality. That is the parties and preparing for this eventuality. That is the parties and the candidates. A lot of people watching will say i have plans over the summer, i am holiday, i am have plans over the summer, i am holiday, iam not have plans over the summer, i am holiday, i am not in the uk. In terms of Voter Registration and be able to vote, explain what people might have to think about. If they want to apply might have to think about. If they want to apply for might have to think about. If they want to apply for a might have to think about. If they want to apply for a postal might have to think about. If they want to apply for a postal vote. Might have to think about. If they want to apply for a postal vote i l want to apply for a postal vote i think they have got to make sure that they start doing the process now and get that well ahead of when the deadline is. I think it is the 18th ofjune. I mean, you know, it is a problem. Rishi sunak did tell the public only the other day that they could start planning their holidays. I am they could start planning their holidays. Iam pretty they could start planning their holidays. I am pretty sure quite a few ministers, politicians, civil servants, i was certainly planning a holiday, so a lot of people probably having to re evaluate and change their plans. Also scotland, the School Holidays will have begun when polling operates. It is important that people start to think now about how they want to vote, whether or not they want to go for a postal vote or not. But again, that sort of disruption, we were talking about the potential for a january election and if the government had waited until then that would have meant campaigning over christmas. In a sense again it is a feature of a general election that it can be disruptive, it can come at all of these awkward moments, but we all have to adjust. The fact is it is finally here and now is the time it is happening. 50 finally here and now is the time it is happening finally here and now is the time it ishauenina. ,. ,. , is happening. So good to talk to you and thank you is happening. So good to talk to you and thank you for is happening. So good to talk to you and thank you for explaining is happening. So good to talk to you and thank you for explaining that. L and thank you for explaining that. The logistics of what happens next. A lot of people in the newsroom changing their plans for the summer as well. What you are seeing on scene is glasgow and that is where we are expecting the Labour Leader, sir keir starmer, to visit. He will be laying out a scottish labours general Election Campaign. The camera is making sure the colour is right. We will take you back there live as soon as he speaks. Now some of the other main stories. 0ne Bill Passed Yesterdayjust before the Proroguing Parliament means that Sub Postmaster is in england, wales and Northern Ireland who were found guilty as part of the Horizon It Scandal will have their convictions quashed today. It comes as former post office boss Paula Vennells faces her last day of questioning at the inquiry. This is her evidence so far. Paula vennells first public interrogation in nine years in the scandal of the post office began with a warning against Self Incrimination and an apology. 0ne Self Incrimination and an apology. One thing it has not done for a while. She was asked about this moment in the docudrama. Is it ossible moment in the docudrama. Is it possible to moment in the docudrama. Is it possible to access moment in the docudrama. I3 t possible to access the system remotely or not . I hope it is we know it is not possible and we are able to explain why that is. I need to be able to say, no, it is not possible. To be able to say, no, it is not possible to be able to say, no, it is not ossible. , g. Possible. Inquiry counseljason beard challenged possible. Inquiry counseljason beard challenged her. Possible. Inquiry counseljason beard challenged her. It possible. Inquiry counseljason beard challenged her. It is possible. Inquiry counseljason beard challenged her. It is an. Possible. Inquiry counseljason i beard challenged her. It is an Odd Wa Of Beard challenged her. It is an odd way of going beard challenged her. It is an odd way of going about beard challenged her. It is an odd way of going about things, beard challenged her. It is an odd way of going about things, isnt i beard challenged her. It is an odd l way of going about things, isnt it . Here way of going about things, isnt it . Here is way of going about things, isnt it . Here is the way of going about things, isnt it . Here is the answer to the question. Tell me here is the answer to the question. Tell me i here is the answer to the question. Tell me lam here is the answer to the question. Tell me i am wrong. Here is the answer to the question. Tell me i am wrong. Yesterday, the inuui tell me i am wrong. Yesterday, the inquiry heard tell me i am wrong. Yesterday, the inquiry heard that tell me i am wrong. Yesterday, the inquiry heard that on tell me i am wrong. Yesterday, the inquiry heard that on the tell me i am wrong. Yesterday, the inquiry heard that on the 7th tell me i am wrong. Yesterday, the inquiry heard that on the 7th of inquiry heard that on the 7th Of July 2013 the post office pr director mark davies sent Paula Vennells an e mail advising her how to respond to the interim findings of the forensic accountants second sight, warning that if the post office looked at past Prosecutions Office looked at past prosecutions of some postmasters, it would make front page news with ballistic impact. She replied, i will take your steer. An e mail sent the most urgent objective was to manage the media. Urgent obective was to manage the media. ,. ,. ,. , media. The email that you had sent, which this is media. The email that you had sent, which this is a media. The email that you had sent, which this is a response media. The email that you had sent, which this is a response to media. The email that you had sent, which this is a response to posit which this is a response to posit should which this is a response to posit should we which this is a response to posit should we look at 12 months since separation should we look at 12 months since separation or should we go back further . Separation or should we go back further . Why are we not going back five to further . Why are we not going back five to ten further . Why are we not going back five to ten years . This is we cant do that five to ten years . This is we cant do that because we will be on the front do that because we will be on the front page. That is a grossly improper front page. That is a grossly improper perspective, isnt it . Yes, it is. Improper perspective, isnt it . Yes, it is ahead improper perspective, isnt it . Yes, it is ahead of improper perspective, isnt it . Yes, it is. Ahead of a improper perspective, isnt it . Yes, it is. Ahead of a crunch improper perspective, isnt it . 1s it is. Ahead of a crunch Board Meeting on the 16th ofjuly 2013, the post offices top lawyer Susan Crichton testified that she told Paula Vennells about an Expert Witness in the trials whose element wasnt safe. And Sub Postmaster could sue for malicious prosecution. Instead of being invited to brief the board she told the inquiry she was kept out of the Board Meeting. She was made to wait outside on a chair~ she was made to wait outside on a chair. ,. ,. ,. , chair. Yes, and i felt bad about that. Chair. Yes, and i felt bad about that sitting chair. Yes, and i felt bad about that. Sitting there. Chair. Yes, and i felt bad about that. Sitting there. She chair. Yes, and i felt bad about that. Sitting there. She must i chair. Yes, and i felt bad about i that. Sitting there. She must have felt terrible. That. Sitting there. She must have felt terrible. Where that. Sitting there. She must have felt terrible. Where you felt terrible. Where you incompetent . Felt terrible. Where you incompetent . Today i felt terrible. Where you i incompetent . Today paula felt terrible. Where you incompetent . Today Paula Vennells will face questions from the lawyers representing Sub Postmaster is who were wrongly prosecuted. Andy verity, bbc news. Lets go to that inquiry. As we have mentioned in the introduction, one of the final bill is to get royal assent and it means those Hundreds Of Sub Postmasters will finally be exonerated. That those Hundreds Of Sub Postmasters will finally be exonerated. Will finally be exonerated. That is ri. Ht. Will finally be exonerated. That is right what will finally be exonerated. That is right what a will finally be exonerated. That is right. What a day will finally be exonerated. That is right. What a day for will finally be exonerated. That is right. What a day for hundreds i will finally be exonerated. That is right. What a day for hundreds of| right. What a day for hundreds of people who were found guilty because of the scandal to have their convictions quashed on the final day of Paula Vennells testimony. This is one of the final bills to pass before westminster breaks up ahead of the general election. It is a reminder that as this inquiry continues there are still People Living with the consequences of the scandal, what has been called the widest Miscarriage Ofjustice in the uk legal history. It does not exonerate everyone, though. This exonerates those who were found guilty of theft and false accounting between 1996 and 2018 while working in a post office and to use the Horizon System. But there were still those who will not have their names cleared, who are still fighting for that, people who lost an appeal, for example, and Scottish Parliament only passed its own Emergency Law On Horizon Last week and still does not have a timetable of quashing those convictions. Many people are still waiting for their moment. For now, thank you waiting for their moment. For now, thank you i waiting for their moment. For now, thank you. I know waiting for their moment. For now, thank you. I know you waiting for their moment. For now, thank you. I know you are waiting for their moment. For now, j thank you. I know you are following that throughout the day following the testimony from Paula Vennells. Thank you. A reminder of the event we are waiting to bring you. This is the scene live in glasgow where the Labour Leader, sir keir starmer, is due to speak. He will meet with the scottish Labour Leader to launch the scottish Labour Leader to launch the scottish Labour Leader to launch the scottish labour general Election Campaign. You see some supporters and Party Members gathering in glasgow. That is imminent. We will take you there live as soon as it happens. Clearly we can see right there the banners we saw many of yesterday, with the simple logo, slogan, word, that labour will use in this general Election Campaign. A vote for labour, they say, is a vote for change. Quite a stark difference to what we have heard from the conservatives and rishi sunak who says stick with us, the plan is working, give us a little bit more time to get the work done. Lets go to james cook in glasgow. James, good to see you. You are expecting to see keir starmer and he will meet with the scottish Labour Leader . That is right, this is the launch of scottish labours campaign and anas sarwar, the scottish Labour Leader will be here with sir keir starmer, the overall leader. We have seen quite a lot of keir starmer already this morning because he has been in the bbc offices in glasgow doing a series of interviews, being asked a variety of questions about his approach to public services, his approach to public services, his approach to public services, his approach to immigration, about his approach to immigration, about his approach to immigration, about his approach to tuition fees in england, in particular. That is an issue dissolved to scotland and to the Scottish Parliament here and tuition fees for universities are funded by the state in scotland, not so in england. He was asked whether his ambition was to return to that idea and in essence he said, yes, it was, but there was not enough money to do at the moment. That but there was not enough money to do at the moment at the moment. That is not the only thin he at the moment. That is not the only thing he said at the moment. That is not the only thing he said he at the moment. That is not the only thing he said he cannot at the moment. That is not the only thing he said he cannot afford i at the moment. That is not the only thing he said he cannot afford to i thing he said he cannot afford to fund. He said i will not pretend i can do things and tell people after the election it is not going to happen. He said this is about being honest with the voters about what he can and cannot deliver. He talked about resources. That means money. In an election money is about choices. There is money there, it is about how government chooses to spend it. About how government chooses to send it. ~. ,,. , � , spend it. What sir Keir Starmers a eal is, spend it. What sir Keir Starmers appeal is, particularly spend it. What sir Keir Starmers appeal is, particularly in spend it. What sir Keir Starmers| appeal is, particularly in Glasgow Andindeed Appeal is, particularly in glasgow and indeed Central Scotland more generally, this was an area that labour used to dominate but at the last general election in 2019 out of 59 mp5 last general election in 2019 out of 59 mps in Scotland Labour returned just one. One of the reasons for thatis just one. One of the reasons for that is there was a pretty wholesale move away from the labour party towards the Scottish National party and for various reasons one of them was because some people believe scotland should be independent. Another one was because people thought the snp will was an authentic left wing party. Whether it was or not is a much longer debate. Certainly people were persuaded that it was. So sir Keir Starmers task here if he wants to get in to try to win back some of those seats in scotland, it will be helpful to him to get across the line and win the election, but his task in scotland is not necessarily the same task as in other parts of the same task as in other parts of the uk, especially in england. In england he is trying to win back voters who moved to the conservatives, the so called red wall in the north of england. In scotland he is trying to win over, arguably, and of course this is a simplification, he is trying to win over some left wing supporters who left him for the snp. It is difficult to square that circle, and it is especially difficult to square that circle with the economy and growth where it is and with keir starmer having to admit it is difficult to find the money, although you say it is a choice, but it is difficult to find the money to necessarily fund the priorities that some people here in glasgow might want to see from more left wing Labour Government. Want to see from more leftwing Labour Government. Want to see from more leftwing Labour Government. James, for now, thank you Labour Government. James, for now, thank you we Labour Government. James, for now, thank you. We will Labour Government. James, for now, thank you. We will be Labour Government. James, for now, thank you. We will be back Labour Government. James, for now, thank you. We will be back with i Labour Government. James, for now, thank you. We will be back with you | thank you. We will be back with you as soon as we see sir keir starmer arriving at that in glasgow. James cook with the very latest on what sort of reception he may expect with the challenge ahead for labour in scotland. We will keep a close eye on that and go back as soon as it begins. Let me bring up to date with some of the other stories we are following the day. Dozens of people are trying to get through the rock and the soil in Papua New Guinea looking for survivors. More than 100 houses are thought to have been buried and rescuers are using machetes and long handle access to find people under the rubble. There was a lot of Heavy Rain In March and more than 20 people were killed by a landslide. Lets take you to the post Office Inquiry. Today is the final day for Paula Vennells to give advice, herthird final day for Paula Vennells to give advice, her third day at the inquiry. We were talking earlier with our correspondence about this being an important day because one of the final bits of Government Business that has been pushed through before the break up of normal business before the general election is to Exonerate Hundreds of former sub masters and mistresses who were falsely accused of wrongful accounting because of the faulty horizon it software. That is now under way. Horizon it software. That is now underway. Lets horizon it software. That is now under way. Lets listen into some of the evidence being given at the post Office Inquiry. The evidence being given at the post Office Inquiry Office Inquiry. What is to be said about miss Office Inquiry. What is to be said about miss mcleod. Office inquiry. What is to be said about miss mcleod. Can Office Inquiry. What is to be said about miss mcleod. Can i i Office Inquiry. What is to be said about miss mcleod. Can i make| Office Inquiry. What is to be said | about miss mcleod. Can i make it clear that they will be, if there is not already, a reasonably lengthy statement on the inquiry website. I dont propose to in effect read it out today, that would take up unnecessary time, but my reasoning is fully set out in the written statement as to how it comes to be that miss mcleod will not give oral evidence. ~ that miss mcleod will not give oral evidence. ,. ,. That miss mcleod will not give oral evidence. ,. , evidence. Thank you very much. Just for the record evidence. Thank you very much. Just for the record for evidence. Thank you very much. Just for the record for our evidence. Thank you very much. Just for the record for our transcript, i for the record for our transcript, because for the record for our transcript, because as for the record for our transcript, because as people will see when they read your because as people will see when they read your statement, reading her Statement Read your statement, reading her statement into the record, her Witness Statement into the record, her Witness Statement Is W Itn one 001 zero 100~ Witness Statement Is W Itn one 001 zero 100. That is by virtue of what i zero 100. That is by virtue of what i have zero 100. That is by virtue of what i have just zero 100. That is by virtue of what i have just done to be treated as evidence i have just done to be treated as evidence in i have just done to be treated as evidence in the inquiry. I have just done to be treated as evidence in the inquiry. Thank you very much evidence in the inquiry. Thank you very much all evidence in the inquiry. Thank you very much. All right, evidence in the inquiry. Thank you very much. All right, over evidence in the inquiry. Thank you very much. All right, over you i evidence in the inquiry. Thank you very much. All right, over you mr| very much. All right, over you mr henry. Since i have taken two or three minutes of your time would you complete your questioning, please, by 10 50am. Complete your questioning, please, by 10 50am by 10 50am. Thank you, sir. There were so many by 10 50am. Thank you, sir. There were so many forks by 10 50am. Thank you, sir. There were so many forks in by 10 50am. Thank you, sir. There were so many forks in the by 10 50am. Thank you, sir. There were so many forks in the robot i by 10 50am. Thank you, sir. There l were so many forks in the robot you always were so many forks in the robot you always took were so many forks in the robot you always took the wrong didnt you . It always took the wrong didnt you . [it was an always took the wrong didnt you . Jt was an extraordinary complex undertaking and. The post office and i always did not take the right path, i am very clear about that. Who Exercise Power with no thought of the who Exercise Power with no thought of the consequences of your actions, despite of the consequences of your actions, despite those consequence is staring you in despite those consequence is staring you in the despite those consequence is staring you in the face. I despite those consequence is staring you in the face you in the face. I am sorry, i missed the you in the face. I am sorry, i missed the beginning. I you in the face. I am sorry, i missed the beginning. You l you in the face. I am sorry, i missed the beginning. You exercise the ower missed the beginning. You exercise the power with missed the beginning. You exercise the power with no missed the beginning. You exercise the power with no thought missed the beginning. You exercise the power with no thought of i missed the beginning. You exercise the power with no thought of the i the power with no thought of the consequences of your actions despite this consequence is staring you in the face this consequence is staring you in the face a this consequence is staring you in the face. � ,. , this consequence is staring you in the face. � ,. , this consequence is staring you in the face. � ,. , ,. , the face. A scheme was set up and for the time the face. A scheme was set up and for the time that the face. A scheme was set up and for the time that i the face. A scheme was set up and for the time that i worked the face. A scheme was set up and for the time that i worked on i the face. A scheme was set up and for the time that i worked on that l the face. A scheme was set up and for the time that i worked on that i believed that i, and i wasnt working alone in this, i was surrounded by colleagues as the inquiry has seen, and i believed that we were doing the right things and clearly that was not always the case. ~ and clearly that was not always the case. ,. , ~ i. , and clearly that was not always the case. ~ ,. , ifi case. Can i take you to. . Ifi ma , case. Can i take you to. . Ifi may. We case. Can i take you to. . Ifi may. We did case. Can i take you to. . Ifi may, we did look case. Can i take you to. . Ifi may, we did look at case. Can i take you to. . Ifi may, we did look at the i case. Can i take you to. . If i may, we did look at the consequences and although that may have been misunderstood, the reason i circulated the cases, including mr castletons, was that it was an act of compassion and i was very moved by the content of that. That was right at the start of the Mediation Process and i felt it was important that i and colleagues understood that. But i accept your point that there are no words i can find today that will make the sorrow and what people have gone through any better. That is humbug. You preach compassion but you dont practice it. Compassion but you dont practice it for compassion but you dont practice it. For example, with mr castleton he was it. For example, with mr castleton he was even close out of the Mediation Process and you know why that was, Mediation Process and you know why that was, dont you . | Mediation Process and you know why that was, dont you . I am Mediation Process and you know why that was, dont you . That was, dont you . I am sorry, i cannot recall that was, dont you . I am sorry, i cannot recall the that was, dont you . I am sorry, i cannot recall the detail that was, dont you . I am sorry, i cannot recall the detail of that was, dont you . I am sorry, i cannot recall the detail of that. I l cannot recall the detail of that. I was not personally involved in which cases did or did not go into the Mediation Scheme. He cases did or did not go into the Mediation Scheme. Cases did or did not go into the Mediation Scheme. ,. , ,. , Mediation Scheme. He so deeply moved to, ou said Mediation Scheme. He so deeply moved to. You said in Mediation Scheme. He so deeply moved to. You said in your Mediation Scheme. He so deeply moved to, you said in your statement, Mediation Scheme. He so deeply moved to, you said in your statement, it to, you said in your statement, it was so to, you said in your statement, it was so shocking, yet he was locked out of was so shocking, yet he was locked out of the was so shocking, yet he was locked out of the Mediation Scheme because of course out of the Mediation Scheme because of course he out of the Mediation Scheme because of course he was an illustrious scalp of course he was an illustrious scalp that of course he was an illustrious scalp that could be used, a precedent, that could be used in the gla. ~. , precedent, that could be used in the gla. ,. , precedent, that could be used in the gla. ~. ,. ,. , precedent, that could be used in the gla. , precedent, that could be used in the gla. What happened to mr castleton is completely gla. What happened to mr castleton is completely unacceptable. Gla. What happened to mr castleton is completely unacceptable. At i gla. What happened to mr castleton is completely unacceptable. At the i is completely unacceptable. At the time his case was not taken through the scheme i personally was not involved in the decision, but the post office took the decision based on legal advice. It was wrong, mr henry, i completely agree with that and what happened to mr castleton is unforgivable. Band and what happened to mr castleton is unforgivable unforgivable. And you instigated no investigation unforgivable. And you instigated no investigation into unforgivable. And you instigated no investigation into why unforgivable. And you instigated no investigation into why £321,000 i unforgivable. And you instigated no investigation into why £321,000 of| investigation into why £321,000 of public investigation into why £321,000 of public money was used to crush him and Grant Public Money was used to crush him and grant him into the dirt . | public money was used to crush him and grant him into the dirt . And grant him into the dirt . I agree with what you and grant him into the dirt . I agree with what you are and grant him into the dirt . I agree with what you are saying. And grant him into the dirt . I agree with what you are saying. Thank and grant him into the dirt . I agree | with what you are saying. Thank you. I am with what you are saying. Thank you. I am talking with what you are saying. Thank you. I am talking now with what you are saying. Thank you. I am talking now about with what you are saying. Thank you. I am talking now about things with what you are saying. Thank you. I am talking now about things that i i am talking now about things that were staring you in the face. But ou were staring you in the face. But you remember, and there is nothing wrong you remember, and there is nothing wrong with you remember, and there is nothing wrong with talking to your husband, i wrong with talking to your husband, i dont wrong with talking to your husband, i dont suggest that you should be ashamed i dont suggest that you should be ashamed at all about that, but you read that ashamed at all about that, but you read that e mail. My engineer, computer read that e mail. My engineer, computer literate husband sent the following computer literate husband sent the following reply to the question, what following reply to the question, what is following reply to the question, what is a following reply to the question, what is a non emotive word for computer what is a non emotive word for computer bugs, glitches, defects, that happen as a matter of course . Answer. That happen as a matter of course . Answer, exception or anomaly. You can also answer, exception or anomaly. You can also say answer, exception or anomaly. You can also say conditional exception or anomaly, which only manifests itself or anomaly, which only manifests itself under unforeseen circumstances. Unforeseen, random, difficult circumstances. Unforeseen, random, difficult to circumstances. Unforeseen, random, difficult to predict, impossible to guard difficult to predict, impossible to guard against. It was staring you in the face, guard against. It was staring you in the face, but you took from your husbands the face, but you took from your husbands text or e mail that which suited husbands text or e mail that which suited you husbands text or e mail that which suited you and ignored or dismissed the potent suited you and ignored or dismissed the potentjeopardy that suited you and ignored or dismissed the potent jeopardy that these bugs could arise under unforeseen circumstances. Isnt that shocking . I circumstances. Isnt that shocking . L covered circumstances. Isnt that shocking . I covered this yesterday with mr beer, i should i covered this yesterday with mr beer, ishould have i covered this yesterday with mr beer, i should have said i covered this yesterday with mr beer, ishould have said bugs. I beer, i should have said bugs. I am not talking about that, i am talking am not talking about that, i am talking about manifests itself under unforeseen circumstances. In other words, unforeseen circumstances. In other words, these things could crop up intermittently at any time as Tim Maccormack warned you in 2014. And here you maccormack warned you in 2014. And here you have this from your husband on the here you have this from your husband on the 2nd here you have this from your husband on the 2nd of here you have this from your husband on the 2nd ofjuly 2013, warning you about on the 2nd ofjuly 2013, warning you about bugs on the 2nd ofjuly 2013, warning you about bugs that manifest themselves under about bugs that manifest themselves under unforeseen circumstances. You should under unforeseen circumstances. You should have under unforeseen circumstances. You should have been horrified. | under unforeseen circumstances. You should have been horrified. I was concerned should have been horrified. I was concerned by should have been horrified. I was concerned by the should have been horrified. I was concerned by the bugs. Should have been horrified. I was concerned by the bugs. You i should have been horrified. I was concerned by the bugs. You did i concerned by the bugs. You did nothinu. Concerned by the bugs. You did nothing mr concerned by the bugs. You did nothing. Mr henry, concerned by the bugs. You did nothing. Mr henry, let concerned by the bugs. You did nothing. Mr henry, let her i concerned by the bugs. You did i nothing. Mr henry, let her finish, nothing. Mr henry, let herfinish, please. Nothing. Mr henry, let her finish, lease. , nothing. Mr henry, let her finish, please can nothing. Mr henry, let her finish, please can you i please. Certainly, sir. Can you reeat please. Certainly, sir. Can you repeat the please. Certainly, sir. Can you repeat the question . Please. Certainly, sir. Can you repeat the question . You i please. Certainly, sir. Can you repeat the question . You are| repeat the question . You are concerned repeat the question . You are concerned by repeat the question . You are concerned by the repeat the question . You are concerned by the bugs, i repeat the question . You are concerned by the bugs, you i repeat the question . You are i concerned by the bugs, you say. Repeat the question . You are concerned by the bugs, you say. What i am suggesting is you took what you wanted i am suggesting is you took what you wanted from the information your husband wanted from the information your husband supplied to you, but you did not heed husband supplied to you, but you did not heed the warning contained in what not heed the warning contained in what he not heed the warning contained in what he said, which was that these bus what he said, which was that these bugs could what he said, which was that these bugs could manifest themselves under unforeseen circumstances. It was staring unforeseen circumstances. It was staring you unforeseen circumstances. It was staring you in the face. The inquiry has heard that staring you in the face. The inquiry has heard that there staring you in the face. The inquiry has heard that there was staring you in the face. The inquiry i has heard that there was information that was not known to me and potentially to other colleagues i was working alongside at that stage. I only had the information of those two bugs. There were, as i said in my statement, other glitches and incidents that i had come across visiting post offices. What i have said on this so far is all that i knew at the time and really all that i can say and i repeat again we should have said bugs. You i can say and i repeat again we should have said bugs. You have no one to blame should have said bugs. You have no one to blame but should have said bugs. You have no one to blame but yourself, should have said bugs. You have no one to blame but yourself, do i should have said bugs. You have no one to blame but yourself, do you | one to blame but yourself, do you agree . One to blame but yourself, do you auree . ~ , one to blame but yourself, do you auree . ~ ,. , agree . Absolutely, where i made mistakes and agree . Absolutely, where i made mistakes and the agree . Absolutely, where i made mistakes and the wrong agree . Absolutely, where i made mistakes and the wrong calls, i mistakes and the wrong calls, whether or not in those cases where i didnt have information it is more difficult, but where i had information and i made the wrong calls, yes, of course. You information and i made the wrong calls, yes, of course. Calls, yes, of course. You are responsible calls, yes, of course. You are responsible for calls, yes, of course. You are responsible for your calls, yes, of course. You are responsible for your own i calls, yes, of course. You are i responsible for your own downfall, arent responsible for your own downfall, arent you . Responsible for your own downfall, arent you . Responsible for your own downfall, arent ou . ,. , arent you . I. From when the court of a eal arent you . I. From when the Court Of Appeal passed arent you . I. From when the Court Of Appeal passed its arent you . I. From when the Court Of Appeal passed its judgment i arent you . I. From when the Court Of Appeal passed itsjudgment i i arent you . I. From when the Court Of Appeal passed itsjudgment i lost| of appeal passed its judgment i lost all the employment that i have had and since that time i have only worked on this inquiry. It has been really important to me to do what i didnt, orwas really important to me to do what i didnt, or was unable to do, at the time i was Chief Executive. And i have worked for the last three years and prioritised this above anything else. Forthe and prioritised this above anything else. For the last year it has probably been a full time job and it is my commitment, i have avoided talking to the press perhaps to my own detriment because all the way through i have put this first. I suggest to you that you still continue to live in a cloud of denial continue to live in a cloud of denial and it persists even to today because denial and it persists even to today because you have given in 750 odd pages because you have given in 750 odd pages are because you have given in 750 odd pages are craven, self serving account, pages are craven, self serving account, havent you . I didnt know, nobody account, havent you . I didnt know, nobody told account, havent you . I didnt know, nobody told me, i cant remember, i wasnt nobody told me, i cant remember, i wasnt showing this, i relied on the lawyers wasnt showing this, i relied on the lawyers | wasnt showing this, i relied on the la ers. ,. ,. , lawyers. I have tried to do this to the very best lawyers. I have tried to do this to the very best of lawyers. I have tried to do this to the very best of my lawyers. I have tried to do this to the very best of my ability. I i lawyers. I have tried to do this to | the very best of my ability. I have taken, as i hope the inquiry has seen, all of the questions i have been asked, i have answered honestly, no matter how difficult or how embarrassing or how wrong i was at the time. I dont believe i could have worked harder for this. At the time. I dont believe i could have worked harderfor this. Iarbihat at the time. I dont believe i could have worked harder for this. What i am auoin have worked harder for this. What i am going to have worked harder for this. What i am going to suggest have worked harder for this. What i am going to suggest to have worked harder for this. What i am going to suggest to you i have worked harder for this. What i am going to suggest to you is i have worked harder for this. What i am going to suggest to you is thatl am going to suggest to you is that whatever am going to suggest to you is that whatever you did was deliberate, considered and calculated. No one deceived considered and calculated. No one deceived you, no one misled you. You set the deceived you, no one misled you. You set the agenda and the tone for the business set the agenda and the tone for the business | set the agenda and the tone for the business. ,. ,. , business. I am sorry, what is the question . Business. I am sorry, what is the question . You business. I am sorry, what is the question . You set business. I am sorry, what is the question . You set the business. I am sorry, what is the question . You set the agenda i business. I am sorry, what is the l question . You set the agenda and business. I am sorry, what is the i question . You set the agenda and the tone for the business, question . You set the agenda and the tone for the business, didnt i question . You set the agenda and the tone for the business, didnt you . I i tone forthe business, didnt you . I was tone for the business, didnt you . Was the tone forthe business, didnt you . I was the Chief Executive, i did not set the agenda for the work of the scheme and the way the legal and the it part of it worked. As i have said to the inquiry in the last two days, i am not a lawyer, i did not have the expertise or the experience to lead on that, nor did i on the it side. I had to rely on those colleagues who were experts and i had no reason not to take the advice that i was given. I accept i was Chief Executive, as i have said and as a Chief Executive you have ultimate accountability and that is simply fact. You are not responsible for everything that happens underneath you, you have to rely on the advice of internal and external experts, and that is what i did and i was not working alone on this. I was surrounded by a board, by the Group Executive committee. I cannot think that any of the major decisions i took my myself in isolation of anybody, this was far too serious an undertaking for the post office, for everybody effective, for every single postmaster case, and my ambition was to get those through the scheme. Idid my i did my very best through this and it wasnt good enough and that is a regret i carry with me. You it wasnt good enough and that is a regret i carry with me. Regret i carry with me. You like anomalies regret i carry with me. You like anomalies euphemisms, i regret i carry with me. You like anomalies euphemisms, so i i regret i carry with me. You like i anomalies euphemisms, so i will regret i carry with me. You like anomalies euphemisms, so i will use one, containment. You want to contain this, sounds better than suppression. He wanted to contain this escalating threat to your leadership and the image that you wanted to project to stakeholders, the board, the government, whitehall and the media . That the board, the government, whitehall and the media . And the media . That isnt the way i worked. And the media . That isnt the way i worked you and the media . That isnt the way i worked. You are and the media . That isnt the way i worked. You are managing and the media . That isnt the way i worked. You are managing up, and the media . That isnt the way i worked. You are managing up, not| worked. You are managing up, not down. Worked. You are managing up, not down you worked. You are managing up, not down you are worked. You are managing up, not down. You are very worked. You are managing up, not down. You are very politically down. You are very politically adept, arent you . Mt; down. You are very politically adept, arent you . Down. You are very politically adept, arent you . My role required me to work adept, arent you . My role required me to work with adept, arent you . My role required me to work with very adept, arent you . My role required me to work with very strict adept, arent you . My role required me to work with very strict inside i me to work with very strict inside and outside the organisation upwards and outside the organisation upwards and downwards from my role and i tried and downwards from my role and i tried my and downwards from my role and i tried my best to work within those groups tried my best to work within those groups do tried my best to work within those urous. , tried my best to work within those urous. , tried my best to work within those urous. ,. , groups. Do you agree you are politically groups. Do you agree you are politically adept . Groups. Do you agree you are politically adept . I groups. Do you agree you are politically adept . I would groups. Do you agree you are politically adept . I would suggest that wasnt the politically adept . I would suggest that wasnt the case. Politically adept . I would suggest that wasnt the case. There politically adept . I would suggest that wasnt the case. There were | that wasnt the case. There were people that wasnt the case. There were people in that wasnt the case. There were people in the organisation that werem people in the organisation that were. This is my firstjob in a public were. This is my firstjob in a Public Sector were. This is my firstjob in a Public Sector organisation, i had no experience Public Sector organisation, i had no experience prior to this working alongside experience prior to this working alongside politicians all the Civil Service alongside politicians all the Civil Service. ,. , , service. Your denial is surprising. Please, please. Service. Your denial is surprising. Please, please. I service. Your denial is surprising. Please, please. I appreciate service. Your denial is surprising. Please, please. I appreciate you | please, please. I appreciate you have please, please. I appreciate you have a please, please. I appreciate you have a difficult please, please. I appreciate you have a difficult task please, please. I appreciate you have a difficult task so please, please. I appreciate you have a difficult task so the please, please. I appreciate you. Have a difficult task so the witness has a have a difficult task so the witness has a difficult have a difficult task so the witness has a difficult task. Have a difficult task so the witness has a difficult task. I have a difficult task so the witness has a difficult task. I will have a difficult task so the witness has a difficult task. I will ask have a difficult task so the witness has a difficult task. I will ask you l has a difficult task. I will ask you both, has a difficult task. I will ask you both, want has a difficult task. I will ask you both, want to has a difficult task. I will ask you both, want to ask has a difficult task. I will ask you both, want to ask the has a difficult task. I will ask you both, want to ask the question l has a difficult task. I will ask you. Both, want to ask the question and want both, want to ask the question and want to both, want to ask the question and want to complete both, want to ask the question and want to complete the both, want to ask the question and want to complete the answer both, want to ask the question and want to complete the answer and l both, want to ask the question and. Want to complete the answer and then we will want to complete the answer and then we will move want to complete the answer and then we will move on want to complete the answer and then we will move on. I want to complete the answer and then we will move on. [do want to complete the answer and then we will move on. We will move on. I do apologise to the witness. We will move on. I do apologise to the witness, sir we will move on. I do apologise to the witness, sir and we will move on. I do apologise to the witness, sir and i we will move on. I do apologise to the witness, sir and i also the witness, sir and i also apologise to you. The witness, sir and i also apologise to you. The witness, sir and i also aolorise to ou. ~ , ~ apologise to you. Thank you, i think i have answered apologise to you. Thank you, i think i have answered your apologise to you. Thank you, i think i have answered your question. Apologise to you. Thank you, i think i have answered your question. It i apologise to you. Thank you, i think i have answered your question. It is| i have answered your question. It is surrisina i have answered your question. It is surprising your i have answered your question. It is surprising your refusal to admit your surprising your refusal to admit your political skills because you ended your political skills because you ended up your political skills because you ended up in the cabinet office, didnt ended up in the cabinet office, didnt you . | ended up in the cabinet office, didnt you . Ended up in the cabinet office, didnt you . I am sorry, i am not sure i understand didnt you . I am sorry, i am not sure i understand the didnt you . I am sorry, i am not. Sure i understand the connection . Your concerns were managing upwards, you were your concerns were managing upwards, you were obsessed with the media, pleasing you were obsessed with the media, pleasing the stakeholders, the board, pleasing the stakeholders, the board, the government, whitehall. Those board, the government, whitehall. Those are board, the government, whitehall. Those are your priorities, werent they . Those are your priorities, werent the . , ,. ,. , they . They were in very important stakeholders they . They were in very important stakeholders for they . They were in very important stakeholders for the they . They were in very important stakeholders for the post they . They were in very important stakeholders for the post office i stakeholders for the post office board. The post office, its single shareholder was government. That was an important part of my role. It certainly wasnt the largest part of my role by any means. Lm certainly wasnt the largest part of my role by any means. Certainly wasnt the largest part of my role by any means. Im going to no my role by any means. Im going to to now to my role by any means. Im going to go now to 2010 my role by any means. Im going to go now to 2010 and my role by any means. Im going to go now to 2010 and the my role by any means. Im going to go now to 2010 and the top my role by any means. Im going to go now to 2010 and the top policy l go now to 2010 and the top policy oal go now to 2010 and the top policy goal of go now to 2010 and the top policy goal of your 100 shareholder, the government was to split the post Office Government was to split the post office from royal mail and then privatise office from royal mail and then privatise royal mail by floating it on the privatise royal mail by floating it on the stock market, do you agree . That was on the stock market, do you agree . That was an on the stock market, do you agree . That was an important priority for the government, yes. Helping to fulfil that the government, yes. Helping to fulfil that plan was therefore important to you because you were being important to you because you were being measured upon it as a yardstick being measured upon it as a yardstick of your success at royal mail and yardstick of your success at royal mail and then subsequently the post office . Mail and then subsequently the post office . It mail and then subsequently the post office . It was probably more significant for royal mail than it was the significant for royal mail than it was the post office, whose challenge was the post office, whose challenge was trying was the post office, whose challenge was trying to cope with the separation to make it happen. And you wort separation to make it happen. And you work closely with dave smith, didnt you work closely with dave smith, didnt you . You work closely with dave smith, didnt you . The you work closely with dave smith, didnt you . You work closely with dave smith, didnt ou . ,. ,. , didnt you . The managing director . Yes, he didnt you . The managing director . Yes. He was didnt you . The managing director . Yes. He was my didnt you . The managing director . Yes, he was my boss. Didnt you . The managing director . Yes, he was my boss. Yes, didnt you . The managing director . Yes, he was my boss. Yes, he yes, he was my boss. Yes, he commissioned yes, he was my boss. Yes, he commissioned the yes, he was my boss. Yes, he commissioned the azmi yes, he was my boss. Yes, he l commissioned the azmi report, yes, he was my boss. Yes, he commissioned the azmi report, which he must commissioned the azmi report, which he must have read at the time . | he must have read at the time . I dont believe i did. I have found. The document itself, when i saw it recently in preparation for the inquiry seem to be a surprise to me. I havent seen any documentation to say that i received it. Say that i received it. Yes, not aware of say that i received it. Yes, not aware of the say that i received it. Yes, not aware of the report, say that i received it. Yes, not aware of the report, you say that i received it. Yes, not aware of the report, you say . | say that i received it. Yes, not| aware of the report, you say . I aware of the report, you say . Dont think aware of the report, you say . I dont think so, no. Horizon aware of the report, you say . I dont think so, no. Horizon had aware of the report, you say . I dont think so, no. Horizon had the clean bill of dont think so, no. Horizon had the clean bill of health, dont think so, no. Horizon had the clean bill of health, its dont think so, no. Horizon had the clean bill of health, its integrity i clean bill of health, its integrity were clean bill of health, its integrity were sound, but i digress. It was important were sound, but i digress. It was important to Donald Brydon and moya greene important to Donald Brydon and moya greene as important to Donald Brydon and moya greene as well . | important to Donald Brydon and moya greene as well . I am important to Donald Brydon and moya greene as well . Greene as well . I am sure it was, but ou greene as well . I am sure it was, but you would greene as well . I am sure it was, but you would have greene as well . I am sure it was, but you would have to greene as well . I am sure it was, but you would have to ask greene as well . I am sure it was, but you would have to ask them. | greene as well . I am sure it was, i but you would have to ask them. In 2010, a week before you were appointed managing director, a trial took place appointed managing director, a trial took place in guildford and an innocent took place in guildford and an innocent woman was jailed. Her trial became innocent woman was jailed. Her trial became the innocent woman was jailed. Her trial became the High Water Mark of horizon became the High Water Mark of horizon infallibility, her conviction became, for years, a validation conviction became, for years, a validation of hers integrity for the post validation of hers integrity for the post office. It was, as it were a test the post office. It was, as it were a test case the post office. It was, as it were a test case. If the prosecution had failed a test case. If the prosecution had failed in a test case. If the prosecution had failed in this prosecution it would have failed in this prosecution it would have opened up the floodgates to civil claims for damages and a defeat civil claims for damages and a defeat in civil claims for damages and a defeat in that trial in guildford would defeat in that trial in guildford would have made civil claims difficult would have made civil claims difficult to defend. The inquiry has seen difficult to defend. The inquiry has seen documents to support what i have just seen documents to support what i have just put to you. But do i take it you have just put to you. But do i take it you knew have just put to you. But do i take it you knew nothing about that case at the it you knew nothing about that case at the time it you knew nothing about that case at the time in october 2010 because you were at the time in october 2010 because you were unaware of prosecution is being you were unaware of prosecution is being mounted by the post office until 2012 . Being mounted by the post office until2012 . | being mounted by the post office until 2012 . , being mounted by the post office until2012 . , until 2012 . I have seen some documentation until 2012 . I have seen some documentation this until 2012 . I have seen some documentation this morning | until 2012 . I have seen some i documentation this morning that showed i was aware of the case afterwards. I think, showed i was aware of the case afterwards. Ithink, i cant remember, but i think i say in my statement i remember being told about the case after the court had reached its decision. And so that would have been at the time of the conviction. , ,. , conviction. You see, there is an email chain conviction. You see, there is an email chain you conviction. You see, there is an email chain you have conviction. You see, there is an email chain you have seen conviction. You see, there is anj email chain you have seen this e mail chain you have seen this morning. E mail chain you have seen this morning, dated the 21st of october 2010, morning, dated the 21st of october 2010, two morning, dated the 21st of october 2010, two mike moz, chief finance officer . 2010, two mike moz, chief finance officer . , ~ ~. , 2010, two mike moz, chief finance officer . , ~ ~. ,. ,. , officer . Yes. Mike young, head of it . Yes. Officer . Yes. Mike young, head of it . Yes and officer . Yes. Mike young, head of it . Yes. And you officer . Yes. Mike young, head of it . Yes. And you and officer . Yes. Mike young, head of it . Yes. And you and dave officer . Yes. Mike young, head of it . Yes. And you and dave smith, j it . Yes. And you and dave smith, after hearing it . Yes. And you and dave smith, after hearing that it . Yes. And you and dave smith, after hearing that she it . Yes. And you and dave smith, after hearing that she had it . Yes. And you and dave smith, after hearing that she had been i after hearing that she had been jailed, after hearing that she had been jailed, saint brillant, well done, please jailed, saint brillant, well done, please pass on my thanks to the team please pass on my thanks to the team and please pass on my thanks to the team. And then it was forward to a group team. And then it was forward to a group of team. And then it was forward to a group of people including Susan Crichton group of people including Susan Crichton with these words, dave and the executive team had been aware of the executive team had been aware of the significance of these challenges and had the significance of these challenges and had been supportive of the excellent work going on in so many teams excellent work going on in so many teams to excellent work going on in so many teams tojustify the excellent work going on in so many teams to justify the confidence that we have teams to justify the confidence that we have in teams to justify the confidence that we have in horizon. And in our supporting we have in horizon. And in our supporting processes. So you must have been supporting processes. So you must have been aware at the time, because you were, have been aware at the time, because you were, of have been aware at the time, because you were, of course, a member of the executive you were, of course, a member of the executive team . | you were, of course, a member of the executive team . Executive team . Iwas, i cant recall the executive team . Iwas, i cant recall the executive executive team . Iwas, i cant recall the executive Team Executive team . I was, i cant recall the executive team discussing this case or any other cases. As far as i can see, from the documentation and may recall, they didnt come to the executive committee in any detail. � ,. , the executive committee in any detail. � ,. ,. ,. , detail. Lets move on. You dont know about detail. Lets move on. You dont know about the detail. Lets move on. You dont know about the ismay detail. Lets move on. You dont know about the ismay report . I | detail. Lets move on. You dont know about the ismay report . I dont believe i did, know about the ismay report . I dont believe i did, no. Know about the ismay report . I dont believe i did, no. 26th know about the ismay report . I dont believe i did, no. 26th of know about the ismay report . I dont believe i did, no. 26th Of November. Believe i did, no. 26th Of November 2010, an email believe i did, no. 26th Of November 2010, an emailto believe i did, no. 26th Of November 2010, an emailto you, believe i did, no. 26th Of November 2010, an emailto you, mike believe i did, no. 26th Of November| 2010, an emailto you, mike moore 2010, an e mail to you, mike moore is, chief 2010, an e mail to you, mike moore is, chief finance, mike young, head of n. Is, chief finance, mike young, head of it. Susan is, chief finance, mike young, head of it, Susan Crichton, kevin keller landm land. Studio you rand. Studio you can rand. Studio you can see in the top right of your screen, events in glasgow which is where the Labour Leader is launching scottish labours Election Campaign, meeting with the scottish Labour Leader, too. We will stay with the post Office Inquiry so if you want to watch Keir Starmers speech in glasgow, scan the qr code on the screen or watch it on the bbc iplayer or website right now. But pretty exclusive testimony on the final day of evidence given by Paula Vennells, the x post office boss being questioned by edward henry qc, a lawyer representing a number of sub toastmasters at that horizon it inquiry. Some tough questions, so lets return. Inquiry. Some tough questions, so lets return lets return. Prosecuted for theft, false accounting, lets return. Prosecuted for theft, false accounting, mrs lets return. Prosecuted for theft, false accounting, mrs mr lets return. Prosecuted for theft, false accounting, mrs mr is false accounting, mrs mr is mentioned, the most recent being, the x mentioned, the most recent being, the x Sub Postmaster was found guilty the x Sub Postmaster was found guilty of the x Sub Postmaster was found guilty of theft. As you were aware, channel guilty of theft. As you were aware, channel 4 guilty of theft. As you were aware, channel 4 was looking at the subject in the channel 4 was looking at the subject in the summer, although nothing yet has come in the summer, although nothing yet has come of in the summer, although nothing yet has come of it. Our approach throughout has been to robustly defend throughout has been to robustly defend the integrity of the Horizon System defend the integrity of the Horizon System. Then it talks about positioning, because it is very important positioning, because it is very important that eis dont do Something Else of their own back because Something Else of their own back because he could lead to difficulties. And these words, as you have difficulties. And these words, as you have all had an involvement in this particular issue, i am looking to see this particular issue, i am looking to see if this particular issue, i am looking to see if t this particular issue, i am looking to see if i can gain concurrence to this particular statement, a very robust this particular statement, a very robust statement about horizons integrity robust statement about horizons integrity. As you have had an involvement in this particular issue. Involvement in this particular issue. And involvement in this particular issue, and that issue, of course, is horizon issue, and that issue, of course, is horizon issues. And on the same email horizon issues. And on the same email as horizon issues. And on the same e mailas you, sent horizon issues. And on the same e mail as you, sent to you, mike moz, e mail as you, sent to you, mike moz, mike e mail as you, sent to you, mike moz, mike young. Are you sure you hadnt moz, mike young. Are you sure you hadnt discuss with mr ismay, anything hadnt discuss with mr ismay, anything to do with his report . No, i dont believe anything to do with his report . No, i dont believe i anything to do with his report . Iirr, i dont believe i do, mr henry. Anything to do with his report . No, i dont believe i do, mr henry. We. I dont believe i do, mr henry. We know injune 2011, the i dont believe i do, mr henry. We know in june 2011, the Postal Services know in june 2011, the Postal Services was passed that set down the Road Services was passed that set down the road map for the separation and the road map for the separation and the privatisation, you agree with that . The privatisation, you agree with that . , on the privatisation, you agree with that . On the the privatisation, you agree with that . Yes. On the 29th Of September 2011, that . Yes. On the 29th Of September 20 11, three that . Yes on the 29th Of September 2011, three months after the act, you receive 2011, three months after the act, you receive the e mail from mr brydon, you receive the e mail from mr brydon, chair of rmg, which he would take until brydon, chair of rmg, which he would take until yesterday, and that was the private eye article and he was expressing concerns and giving you you and expressing concerns and giving you you and Alice Perkins directions about you and Alice Perkins directions about how you and Alice Perkins directions about how to deal with the Sub Postmaster complaint, wasnt he . Yes, Sub Postmaster complaint, wasnt he . Yes. I Sub Postmaster complaint, wasnt he . Yes. I cant Sub Postmaster complaint, wasnt he . Yes, i cant remember the e mail in detail. Yes, i cant remember the email in detail. Yes, i cant remember the email in detail. ,. , detail. Yes, he was saying the article raises detail. Yes, he was saying the article raises some detail. Yes, he was saying the article raises some questions| detail. Yes, he was saying the article raises some questions about horizon. Article raises some questions about horizon. I article raises some questions about horizon, i suspect the audit and Risk Committee ought to take an interest Risk Committee ought to take an interest. Have we ever had an independent audit of horizon . He was worried independent audit of horizon . He was worried that this might disrupt the bil worried that this might disrupt the big plan worried that this might disrupt the big plan to privatise the Royal Mail Group, big plan to privatise the Royal Mail Group, wasnt he . I am big plan to privatise the Royal Mail Group. Wasnt he . Group, wasnt he . I am sorry, i dont recollect group, wasnt he . I am sorry, i dont recollect that. Group, wasnt he . I am sorry, i dont recollect that. Whether i | group, wasnt he . I am sorry, i dont recollect that. Whether i made that association, i dont know. Hf that association, i dont know. If it were to be established that the royal it were to be established that the Royal Mail Group had wrongly prosecuted dozens, hundreds of sub toastmasters he might sue them, he would sub toastmasters he might sue them, he would have threatened to disrupt the flotation in october 2013, wouldnt the flotation in october 2013, wouldnt it . | the flotation in october 2013, wouldnt it . The flotation in october 2013, wouldnt it . ,. ,. , wouldnt it . I am sure that would have been wouldnt it . I am sure that would have been the wouldnt it . I am sure that would have been the case. Wouldnt it . I am sure that would have been the case. You wouldnt it . I am sure that would have been the case. You have i have been the case. You have accepted. Have been the case. You have accepted. In have been the case. You have accepted, in your have been the case. You have accepted, in your witness have been the case. You have accepted, in your Witness Statement, that attempts to reopen past prosecutions posed a reputational and financial risk to the post office . And financial risk to the post office . ~. , and financial risk to the post office . ~. , i. , ~ and financial risk to the post office . ~. ,. ,. , ~. , office . Would you mind taking me to that . B all office . Would you mind taking me to that . By all means, office . Would you mind taking me to that . By all means, it office . Would you mind taking me to that . By all means, it is office . Would you mind taking me to that . By all means, it is paragraph i that . By all means, it is paragraph 456. That . By all means, it is paragraph 456 thank that . By all means, it is paragraph 456. Thank you. That . By all means, it is paragraph 456. Thank you. If that . By all means, it is paragraph 456. Thank you. If we that . By all means, it is paragraph 456. Thank you. If we could that . By all means, it is paragraph 456. Thank you. If we could go that . By all means, it is paragraph 456. Thank you. If we could go to i 456. Thank you. If we could go to our first 456. Thank you. If we could go to your first witness 456. Thank you. If we could go to your first Witness Statement, and it is paragraph 456. I am so sorry, and it is paragraph 456. I am so sorry, i and it is paragraph 456. I am so sorry, i seem to have lost the page reference sorry, i seem to have lost the page reference |t sorry, i seem to have lost the page reference. Sorry, i seem to have lost the page reference. , sorry, i seem to have lost the page reference. Thank i sorry, i seem to have lost the page| reference. Thank you reference. It is page 220. Thank you so much, reference. It is page 220. Thank you so much. Sir martin edwards. Correct . Yes, thank ou. This martin edwards. Correct . Yes, thank you this would martin edwards. Correct . Yes, thank you. This would also martin edwards. Correct . Yes, thank you. This would also pose martin edwards. Correct . Yes, thank you. This would also pose a you. This would also pose a reputational you. This would also pose a reputational financial you. This would also pose a reputational financial risk i you. This would also pose a| reputational financial risk to you. This would also pose a reputational financial risk to the royal reputational financial risk to the Royal Mail Group. Since they were responsible for the legacy of prosecutions, because until 2012, they were prosecutions, because until 2012, they were the prosecuting authority, werent they were the prosecuting authority, werent they . Werent they . Yes, that is correct. No need to werent they . Yes, that is correct. No need to go werent they . Yes, that is correct. No need to go to werent they . Yes, that is correct. No need to go to your werent they . Yes, that is correct. No need to go to your reply werent they . Yes, that is correct. No need to go to your reply to werent they . Yes, that is correct. No need to go to your reply to mr| no need to go to your reply to mr brydon, and to use the expression, it has a 100 strike rate in court. The post office was going to have horizon the post office was going to have horizon verified by an external systems horizon verified by an external systems auditor with results in the next month. You say you dont remember, next month. You say you dont remember, but this clearly, this reference remember, but this clearly, this reference to an external systems auditor. Reference to an external systems auditor, this was clearly a reference to the work that ernst young reference to the work that ernst young had reference to the work that ernst young had recommended in their 2011 audit letter, wasnt it . No, young had recommended in their 2011 audit letter, wasnt it . Audit letter, wasnt it . No, i dont believe it was. Audit letter, wasnt it . No, i dont believe it was. The audit letter, wasnt it . No, i dont believe it was. The inquiry audit letter, wasnt it . No, i dont believe it was. The inquiry has believe it was. The inquiry has documentation that refers to two separate external agencies. One was a Company Called ten test, i think on the other was kpmg. I havent been able to find that. And i chased leslie sule or mike young for progress on that work. And i havent seen anything that followed it through. Seen anything that followed it throu. H. Seen anything that followed it throuuh. , ,. , through. Ok, lets concentrate, however. Through. Ok, lets concentrate, however. On through. Ok, lets concentrate, however, on the through. Ok, lets concentrate, however, on the ernst through. Ok, lets concentrate, however, on the ernst and through. Ok, lets concentrate, i however, on the ernst and young angle however, on the ernst and young angle for however, on the ernst and young angle for a however, on the ernst and young angle for a moment. Because you will accept angle for a moment. Because you will accept they angle for a moment. Because you will accept they recommended what it was then called accept they recommended what it was then called an sas 70 audit, do you remember then called an sas 70 audit, do you remember that . Then called an sas 70 audit, do you rememberthat . | then called an sas 70 audit, do you remember that . Then called an sas 70 audit, do you remember that . I am sorry, could you sa that remember that . I am sorry, could you say that again . Remember that . I am sorry, could you say that again . You remember that . I am sorry, could you say that again . You do remember that . I am sorry, could you say that again . You do remember say that again . You do remember ernst and young say that again . You do remember ernst and young had say that again . You do remember. Ernst and young had recommended say that again . You do remember ernst and young had recommended as a solution ernst and young had recommended as a solution to ernst and young had recommended as a solution to what mr peer had called remote solution to what mr peer had called Remote Access one, was an sas 70 audit . Remote access one, was an sas 70 audit . Remote access one, was an sas 70 audit . ,. , Remote Access one, was an sas 70 audit . Yes. Remote access one, was an sas 70 audit . Yes, and Remote Access one, was an sas 70 audit . Yes, and that audit . Yes, i do. Yes, and that would, audit . Yes, i do. Yes, and that would. As audit . Yes, i do. Yes, and that would. As it audit . Yes, i do. Yes, and that would, as it were, audit . Yes, i do. Yes, and that would, as it were, try audit . Yes, i do. Yes, and that would, as it were, try to audit . Yes, i do. Yes, and that. Would, as it were, try to address the threat would, as it were, try to address the threat that they had identified was that the threat that they had identified was that lax controls at fujitsu, may was that lax controls at fujitsu, may lead was that lax controls at fujitsu, may lead to the processing of erroneous or un authorised transactions. We do remember that . I do, transactions. We do remember that . I do. It transactions. We do remember that . Tdo. It wasnt transactions. We do remember that . I do, it wasnt exactly that, that the ss 70, there was a new name for it after that. Ernst and young said in their management letter that they had had to put in, and these are my words are not theirs, but Something Like manual workarounds to reach the conclusion they had, that they could pass on a qualified audit. They said it would have been much easier if fugitive had in place ss 70, and my understanding, it is an ongoing and automated reporting on the various controls in place. And by the time we got to 2012, 2013 that had been introduced. It had taken some work with fujitsu to get there. Brute introduced. It had taken some work with fujitsu to get there. With fuitsu to get there. We know that with fujitsu to get there. We know that lesley sule, with fujitsu to get there. We know that lesley sule, rather with fujitsu to get there. We know that lesley sule, rather than that lesley sule, rather than getting that lesley sule, rather than getting an sas 70 audit, as the royal getting an sas 70 audit, as the Royal Mail Group for an internal audit. Royal mail group for an internal audit, where you responsible for that . Audit, where you responsible for that . If audit, where you responsible for that . ,y audit, where you responsible for that . ,. ,. , that . Ifi may, having read through the documentation that . Ifi may, having read through the documentation and that . Ifi may, having read through. The documentation and remembered that . Ifi may, having read through the documentation and remembered on this, i think the process is slightly different for the new outline. There was criticism in ten, 11 because the audit had taken too long, it had run over massively in terms of time and budget. There were two reasons for that, ernst young had a new team on it and they not were for money and secondary, horizon online had been put in place and theresimply, i am told, there hadnt been the time to get all of the right controls and documentation into speed. So ernst young had to spend more time to validate what was there. They suggested ss 70 report and we then worked with fujitsu to make sure that was put in place, they were not keen to do it because it was a Huge Investment for them, but they agreed to do that. Through one of the czech steps in that process for approving the approach of the audit was the royal mail internal audit process. That was not instead of, that was checking to make sure lesley sule and her team were an independent, but internal audit teams are generally seen as independent as much as they can be within a company and that was making sure lesley and her team are doing the work that was required to achieve what eventually became ias 244 or it has been seen by the inquiry, and it was sent to you and to moya greene, the ceo at rmg, as well as other senior people at rmg and it stated with regard to the poor controls, if im, it is difficult to protect and protect inappropriate changes being made to master data. Tt inappropriate changes being made to master data master data. It responded to the ernst young master data. It responded to the ernst young march master data. It responded to the ernst young march 2011 master data. It responded to the ernst young march 2011 letter l master data. It responded to the i ernst young march 2011 letter and stated ernst young march 2011 letter and stated that the position as at the end of stated that the position as at the end ofjanuary 2012 was that none of the issues end ofjanuary 2012 was that none of the issues raised by ernst young had been the issues raised by ernst young had been resolved. The verdicts where had been resolved. The verdicts where that substantial progress had been made insubstantial progress had been made insubstantial progress had been made in respect of some of the recommendations or significant work remained recommendations or significant work remained and was required. So i ask you this, remained and was required. So i ask you this, would it be right to say that remained the position throughout the time that you were ceo . Ceo . Studio as can studio as promised, if you ceo . Studio as promised, if you want to continue watching events at the post Office Inquiry, some tough questioning for Paula Vennells there from edward henry casey. That will continue on the bbc iplayer. We will go to glasgow where the Labour Leader, sir keir starmer is launching the scottish labour Election Campaign. As i look at this t shirt i remember it is a better welcome than some of the welcomes i have had. But it is fantastic to be here with you. Thank you and for your leadershipjackie, you and for your leadership jackie, and you and for your leadershipjackie, and ian, your leadership, the transformation in scotland and thank you for your friendship and support as well. Because we are at the moment, the Prime Minister has finally got round to calling the election. Standing in the rain without an umbrella telling us he is the man with the plan. Laughter. Applause. But this is what scotland needs, it is what scotland has been waiting for. Whether you are a family that has been struggling with The Cost Of Living month after month after month. If you are a business that has been struggling against the odds for a very long time now, or serving your communities, this is for you. Because this is an election about change. And scotland has macro voice is vital, absolutely vital. It needs to be a leading voice. Send a message. Send a message. That is the height of the snp ambition, send a message, a protest In Westminster. I dont want scotland to send a message, i want scotland to send a government, a Labour Government cheering and applause. A Labour Government that can stop the chaos and division, that can turn the page and rebuild scotland and britain. We need that change. The chaos and division has cost. 17 years here in scotland, spinning round and round with nothing material delivered, 17 years of the snp. 14 years material delivered, 17 years of the snp. 14 years in material delivered, 17 years of the snp. 14 years In Westminster, chaos and division feeding chaos and division. And there is a cost, a human cost to that. We went to a food parcel farm to a factoryjust up food parcel farm to a factoryjust up the road where they were giving out food parcels to people who didnt have enough money to feed themselves and their families. Scottish families, working people, people coming after work to pick up a food parcel because they couldnt afford to feed their family. They are paying a huge price for the failure here in scotland and for the failure here in scotland and for the failure down In Westminster. And that afternoon, you will remember this, there was a seven year old girl, this is etched in my head, i thought about it all the way home, a seven year old girl, just a few minutes from here, actually, handing out food parcels. Hell of a personality, she was really smart, incredible. At the end of the session handing out food parcels, i did at piece to camera with an autocue. And i could see her out of the corner of my eye, watching me. She was absolutely fascinated with what i was doing with the autocue. When i had finished, i said to her, why dont you have a go . And her words. David me forever. She said, i dont read, me, i dont read, me. I dont read, me, i dont read, me. I got the train back to london and i thought about those words, i dont read, a seven year old girl. I thought about her, her future on the cost she is paying for the fairly here under the snp and the failure down In Westminster. She is paying that price. They will not change, the snp isnt going to change, the tories are not going to change. Only labour can stop the chaos. And turn the page. And this is the good news, you dont have to put up with it any more, you can vote for change, under democracy the vote now is with you to for change. Here in scotland we have changed the labour party and working with me they have changed the labour party and put it back in the labour party and put it back in the service of working people. But we now ask humbly, is for the opportunity to change scotland and to change britain for the better and to change britain for the better and to put them back in the service of working people. Applause. And i know there are voters here in scotland he wanted in the past to get the tories out, but felt that they couldnt vote for labour because they didnt think that we would win. Well, we are a change labour party and we now have that opportunity to kick the tories out, but you have to take that opportunity by voting labour. Cheering and applause. Because there is no change without scotland, there is no labour without scotland, there is no labour without scotland, scotland are central to the mission of the next Labour Government. Cheering and applause. And that mission isntjust to turn the page to bring about the change we desperately need, it is to rebuild, to rebuild you need a plan for your autonomy, rebuild, to rebuild you need a plan foryourautonomy, get rebuild, to rebuild you need a plan for your autonomy, get it functioning for everyone, with jobs in scotland. Economy. Not far from here, the wind farm upon the hills. I have been there, an incredible place to go with wind turbines, huge bits of manufacturing and engineering. It is quite awe inspiring, hundreds of them generating powerfor the awe inspiring, hundreds of them generating power for the future. When i went there with anas, i asked a simple question of the ceo. I said, how many of these were built in scotland . And the answer. None of them. Not one. They had all been towed in fast working people in scotland and put together. That is the price of not making your economy the price of not making your economy the priority. We are not prepared to pay that price under a Labour Government. Cheering and applause. You will never have a strong functioning economy if you dont treat your workforce properly. If you dont give people basic dignity and respect at work and that is why our new deal for working people will be the biggest act of levelling up for work ares right in a generation. Cheering and applause. No more zerohours contract, make work da. Work day. Cheering and applause. And as anas has said, our other plan, Great British energy, a publicly owned Company Investing in clean, british power and based here in scotland. Cheering and applause. Jobs in scotland keeping prices down across the whole country. So there is a choice at this election. A choice between continuing with chaos and division and failure. All the choice of voting for labour and stopping the chaos of the vision thatis stopping the chaos of the vision that is doing much harm and by turning the page and bring the change we need across scotland and rebuilding across scotland and across britain. That is the choice of the next election, if you want change, you have to vote for it. Thank you so much. Cheering and applause. I like the t shirt. The best of them all. I like the tshirt. The best of them all. , all. Hello. Cheeringj all. Hello. | cheering. Right at the top, wow. Cheering. Riuht atthe to, wow. ,. Cheering. Richtattheto,wow. M right at the top, wow. Fantastic. We are auoin right at the top, wow. Fantastic. We are going to right at the top, wow. Fantastic. We are going to step right at the top, wow. Fantastic. We are going to step away right at the top, wow. Fantastic. We are going to step away from right at the top, wow. Fantastic. We are going to step away from the are going to step away from the Labour Leader launching scottish labours Election Campaign. There are a lot of moving parts for you and that is what has happened in glasgow, keir starmer meeting with the scottish Labour Leader to outline their plans for this Election Campaign. As we saw on the placards once again, the message, quite a simple one, it is time for change. What you can also see on the screen is the final day of evidence being given by Paula Vennells at the post Office Inquiry. Some pretty tough questions being put to her, so if you want to follow that live you can scan the qr code and check out the bbc news website or indeed the bbc iplayer that will have full details there. We are staying with those two stories as well. Worth reiterating some of what we heard from keir starmer at that event in glasgow. Talking about his priorities for government. And he is making it very clear that scotland is still the key battleground for the labour party. He said he is glad the labour party. He said he is glad the election has finally been called and he says it is what scotland needs and what scotland has been waiting for, this is an election about change. Scotlands voice, he says, is vital. We heard from the scottish Labour Leader, anna sarwar, who was there. He spoke to those who hadnt voted labour in the past and he said he and keir starmer had worked, quote, day and night and wants to be elected once again. There is one line of breaking news that we want to bring you as well. That is news that you saw on screen a little earlier that the child serial killer lucy letby has lost her bid to overturn her conviction for murdering seven babies and trying to kill six others. She was found guilty last year of killing five baby boys and two baby girls at the Chester Hospital. Lets talk to our correspondence in sunderland. A Significant Development this morning. Just remind us of some of the background to this case. I would like to a court the background to this case. I would like to a court order the background to this case. I would like to a court order prevents the background to this case. I would like to a court order prevents us like to a court order prevents us from giving you the full background to the case and that is because lucy letby will be facing a retrial on one count, left over from her original trial, when the jury could not decide on that one. That trial begins next month in manchester. For that reason we are limited in what we can say but today at the royal course in london she has failed to appeal her conviction. It was a very short hearing this morning, five minutes in front of a panel of judges at the Court Of Appeal. They simply said that they had refused her leave to appeal, so they have refused her permission to have her appeal heard. No more detail has been given. There will be a formal judgment in due course, but we cannot report that, certainly at this point. And sojust to remind you of the original charges, the crimes that lucy letby was convicted of, of murdering seven babies and attempting to murder another six at the countess of Chester Hospital between june 2015 and june 2016. The countess of Chester Hospital betweenjune 2015 and june 2016. She was appealing against those convictions and that is what she has failed in her bid to do. We cannot give you the detail of what was said in her appeal hearing, other than to say her argument was that there are four grounds of appeal and they all related to the actions of the judge in her original trial. Just to refresh the newjoiners, just the news that the nurse lucy letby has lost in her bid to appeal against her conviction is and will face a retrial on one charge only injune. Secondly to all of that in the autumn term there will be a Public Inquiry which will look into the events at the countess of Chester Hospital during that period. Judith, thank ou hospital during that period. Judith, thank you for hospital during that period. Judith, thank you for explaining hospital during that period. Judith, thank you for explaining that. Hospital during that period. Judith, thank you for explaining that. It. Hospital during that period. Judith, thank you for explaining that. It is | thank you for explaining that. It is important to say what you can and cannot discuss at this stage. Thank you, live from our newsroom in salford. I want to take you back to the events at the post Office Inquiry were some really tough questions for the former boss of the post office, Paula Vennells. She has been questioned this morning by the lawyer representing the Sub Postmasters. Some pretty tough questioning for her. She said she did her very best but accepted it was not good enough. But some pretty damning testimony. Lets listen. It was flagged to me that in the it section of the royal mail prospectus there was a reference to, i cant remember the words now, but risks related to the horizon it system. Again, i cant recall that i clearly arrived at a view, but that seemed. It seemed the wrong place. The line that was put in said no systemic issues had been found with the Horizon System. The Horizon System was no longer anything to do with the Royal Mail Group. I got in touch with the Company Secretary and said i dont understand why this is here, please can we have it removed. This prospectus is about royal mail rather than the post office. I believe that was the case. The other thing i learned from the documentation this morning that i did not know at the time is the original genesis of that statement going into the it section was from one of the nonexecutive directors who sat on the royal mail board and the post office board, les owen. Whether les owen had wanted to put that in because in some ways it was reassuring about the horizon it system, i dont know. But my involvement was simply to say i dont understand why there is a line in an it section in the royal mail prospectus about the post office. I dont recall that i believe it was taken out. Dont recall that i believe it was taken out dont recall that i believe it was takenout. ,. ,. , ~. , taken out. You had on the 16th of jul the taken out. You had on the 16th of july the board taken out. You had on the 16th of july the Board Meeting taken out. You had on the 16th of july the Board Meeting where taken out. You had on the 16th of. July the Board Meeting where Susan Crichton july the Board Meeting where Susan Crichton is july the Board Meeting where Susan Crichton is sitting outside on the naughty crichton is sitting outside on the naughty step, you know that at the 16th of naughty step, you know that at the 16th ofjuly Board Meeting the board was alarmed about potential claims against was alarmed about potential claims against it. Was alarmed about potential claims against it, correct . Was alarmed about potential claims against it, correct . Yes. You know as well that against it, correct . Yes. You know as well that on against it, correct . Yes. You know as well that on the against it, correct . Yes you know as well that on the 22nd ofjuly your as well that on the 22nd ofjuly your insurers were notified, correct . Your insurers were notified, correct . I your insurers were notified, correct . , � your insurers were notified, correct . Your insurers were notified, correct . , correct . I dont recall that but i am happy correct . I dont recall that but i am happy to correct . I dont recall that but i am happy to take correct . I dont recall that but i am happy to take your correct . I dont recall that but i am happy to take your word. I correct . I dont recall that but i l am happy to take your word. How would revelations am happy to take your word. How would revelations about possible prosecution failures during the time when prosecution failures during the time when royal mail was in charge of the post office when royal mail was in charge of the post office have affected privatisation . It would have been devastating, wouldnt it . Yes, privatisation . It would have been devastating, wouldnt it . Devastating, wouldnt it . Yes, it would have. Devastating, wouldnt it . Yes, it would have, im devastating, wouldnt it . Yes, it would have, im sure. Devastating, wouldnt it . Yes, it would have, im sure. Was devastating, wouldnt it . Yes, it would have, im sure. Was this i would have, im sure. Was this discussed would have, im sure. Was this discussed with would have, im sure. Was this discussed with the would have, im sure. Was this discussed with the royal would have, im sure. Was this discussed with the royal mail i would have, im sure. Was this discussed with the royal mail board . I dont discussed with the royal mail board . I dont know, it certainly wasnt discussed at the post office board. What about your discussions with the business what about your discussions with the Business Department because you were regularly Business Department because you were regularly in Business Department because you were regularly in contact with them . No, i dont believe regularly in contact with them . No, i dont believe it regularly in contact with them . Tip, i dont believe it was, not by the post office, not by me. Whether the chairman. I cant think who else, but i certainly didnt. Chairman. I cant think who else, but i certainly didnt. But i certainly didnt. Well, you have mentioned but i certainly didnt. Well, you have mentioned about but i certainly didnt. Well, you have mentioned about les but i certainly didnt. Well, you i have mentioned about les owen because have mentioned about les owen because he had formerly been on the inside because he had formerly been on the inside at because he had formerly been on the inside at the post office because he had formerly been a Board Director at the had formerly been a Board Director at the post had formerly been a Board Director at the post office, hadnt he . Yes, he had. At the post office, hadnt he . Yes, he had he at the post office, hadnt he . Yes, he had. He was at the post office, hadnt he . Yes, he had. He was concerned at the post office, hadnt he . Yes, he had. He was concerned enough | at the post office, hadnt he . Yes, i he had. He was concerned enough to ut he had. He was concerned enough to put something he had. He was concerned enough to put something in he had. He was concerned enough to put something in the he had. He was concerned enough to put something in the prospectus he had. He was concerned enough to put something in the prospectus but| put something in the prospectus but you wanted it taken out and you succeeded in getting it taken out, didnt succeeded in getting it taken out, didnt you . | succeeded in getting it taken out, didnt ou . Succeeded in getting it taken out, didnt you . Didnt you . I did because i felt it was an irrelevant didnt you . I did because i felt it was an irrelevant statement didnt you . I did because i felt it was an irrelevant statement in i didnt you . I did because i felt it i was an irrelevant statement in the section about the royal mail it system. Section about the royal mail it s stem. � ,. , section about the royal mail it s stem. � ,. ,. ,. , system. And you sent an email to Alice Perkins. System. And you sent an email to Alice Perkins, 001, system. And you sent an email to Alice Perkins, 001, 46462, system. And you sent an email to Alice Perkins, 001, 46462, which | Alice Perkins, 001, 46462, which stated Alice Perkins, 001, 46462, which stated i Alice Perkins, 001, 46462, which stated i have earned my keep on this one. Stated i have earned my keep on this one do stated i have earned my keep on this one do you stated i have earned my keep on this one. Do you remember reading that this morning . I do, yes. What did you mean this morning . I do, yes. What did you mean when you wrote that to your chairman . You mean when you wrote that to your chairman . L you mean when you wrote that to your chairman . ,. ,. , ~ chairman . I meant it had taken some. Some chairman . I meant it had taken some. Some time chairman . I meant it had taken some. Some time in chairman . I meant it had taken some. Some time in a chairman . I meant it had taken some. Some time in a very i chairman . I meant it had taken i some. Some time in a very short period of time to remove that statement about post office it from the royal mail prospectus because i didnt believe that it was helpful in any way to the post office because the two businesses were separate, the prospectus was about the flotation of the royal mail and as i said a couple of times over the last two days, there was always with the post office, and it was the same for the royal mail, the challenge of managing potential misinterpretation in the media of facts that were not necessarily always understood. As Chief Executive, part of your role is to protect the reputation of the post office. Is to protect the reputation of the post office is to protect the reputation of the post office. ,. ,. ,. , post office. They would have been no misinterpretation post office. They would have been no misinterpretation of post office. They would have been no misinterpretation of the post office. They would have been no misinterpretation of the media misinterpretation of the media because misinterpretation of the media because the media poz my instincts were entirely correct. You knew of the existence of bugs, errors and defects the existence of bugs, errors and defects and you had already kept those defects and you had already kept those out, had a new, because they dont those out, had a new, because they dont appear those out, had a new, because they dont appear in the prospectus . | dont appear in the prospectus . I had dont appear in the prospectus . Had no dont appear in the prospectus . I had no work, mr henry, on the prospectus at all, no work on it until the very last minute intervention. Until the very last minute intervention. , ~. , until the very last minute intervention. , ~. ,. , intervention. You knew there was a risk for civil intervention. You knew there was a risk for civil claims intervention. You knew there was a risk for civil claims for intervention. You knew there was a risk for civil claims for wrongful risk for civil claims for wrongful prosecutions and civil actions based on such prosecutions and civil actions based on such bugs and you were aware of that on such bugs and you were aware of that the on such bugs and you were aware of that. The 16th ofjuly Board Meeting, correct . That. The 16th ofjuly board | meeting, correct . You that. The 16th ofjuly Board Meeting, correct . Yes. You knew the r0 al mail meeting, correct . Is; you knew the Royal Mail Group was responsible for the legacy of those prosecutions together the legacy of those prosecutions together with the post office. You really together with the post office. You really had together with the post office. You really had your keep on that hadnt you . Really had your keep on that hadnt you . You really had your keep on that hadnt you . You kept the lid on it. That was not at you . You kept the lid on it. That was not at all you . You kept the lid on it. That was not at all what you . You kept the lid on it. That was not at all what i you . You kept the lid on it. That was not at all what i was you . You kept the lid on it. inst was not at all what i was doing. I have no reflection in relation to that whatsoever. Have no reflection in relation to that whatsoever. Contain negative ress, that whatsoever. Contain negative press. Protect that whatsoever. Contain negative press, protect the that whatsoever. Contain negative press, protect the business, that whatsoever. Contain negative press, protect the business, hide| press, protect the business, hide horizon press, protect the business, hide horizon issues. That is the truth, isnt horizon issues. That is the truth, isnt it . Horizon issues. That is the truth, isnt it . , ~ , horizon issues. That is the truth, isntit . , ~ ,. ,. , isnt it . No, mr henry, that is not the truth isnt it . No, mr henry, that is not the truth as isnt it . No, mr henry, that is not the truth. As | isnt it . No, mr henry, that is not the truth. As i said isnt it . No, mr henry, that is not the truth. As i said earlier, isnt it . No, mr henry, that is not the truth. As i said earlier, if the truth. As i said earlier, if there were difficult issues that needed to be addressed that is what i tried to do. Mr needed to be addressed that is what i tried to do i tried to do. Mr henry, before you no on to i tried to do. Mr henry, before you go on to a i tried to do. Mr henry, before you go on to a slightly i tried to do. Mr henry, before you go on to a slightly different i tried to do. Mr henry, before you go on to a slightly different topic, | go on to a slightly different topic, if it is, that line of questioning, as you appreciate, is new to me, so i would be grateful if you or miss page would give mr via a note of the documents so that i can read them for myself. Documents so that i can read them for m self. , ~ documents so that i can read them for myself for myself. Thank you, sir, i shall do so. For myself. Thank you, sir, i shall do so the for myself. Thank you, sir, i shall do so. The 27th for myself. Thank you, sir, i shall do so. The 27th of for myself. Thank you, sir, i shall do so. The 27th Of September for myself. Thank you, sir, i shall i do so. The 27th Of September 2013, the prospectus is released, the closing the prospectus is released, the closing date for royal mail share applications is the 8th Of October 2015 applications is the 8th Of October 2015 and applications is the 8th of october 2013. And this is around the time a month 2013. And this is around the time a month after 2013. And this is around the time a month after we can know for sure that you month after we can know for sure that you had been told about Gareth Jenkins. That you had been told about Gareth Jenkins, because you must accept that you jenkins, because you must accept that you had been told about the gareth that you had been told about the garethjenkins problem that you had been told about the Gareth Jenkins problem at least a month Gareth Jenkins problem at least a month before the 27th Of September 2015 month before the 27th Of September 2015 | month before the 27th Of September 2013. ,. , ,. 2013. I believe that is correct, es. 2013. I believe that is correct, yes right 2013. I believe that is correct, yes right i 2013. I believe that is correct, yes. Right. Iexplained 2013. I believe that is correct, yes. Right. I explained to 2013. I believe that is correct, yes. Right. I explained to mr. 2013. I believe that is correct, i yes. Right. I explained to mr be what i was told about garethjenkins and the bugs. I what i was told about Gareth Jenkins and the bugs and the bugs. I suggest that your conversation and the bugs. I suggest that your conversation with and the bugs. I suggest that your conversation with lesley and the bugs. I suggest that your conversation with lesley sule and the bugs. I suggest that your conversation with lesley sule is i and the bugs. I suggest that yourj conversation with lesley sule is a creation conversation with lesley sule is a creation of conversation with lesley sule is a creation of yours, isnt it . | conversation with lesley sule is a creation of yours, isnt it . I am sor . Creation of yours, isnt it . I am sorry . You creation of yours, isnt it . I am sorry . You see, creation of yours, isnt it . I am sorry . You see, you creation of yours, isnt it . I am sorry . You see, you want creation of yours, isnt it . I am sorry . You see, you want to i creation of yours, isnt it . I am sorry . You see, you want to explain how ou sorry . You see, you want to explain how you acquire sorry . You see, you want to explain how you acquire the sorry . You see, you want to explain how you acquire the information how you acquire the information about how you acquire the information aboutjenkins but at how you acquire the information about jenkins but at the same how you acquire the information aboutjenkins but at the same time being aboutjenkins but at the same time being told aboutjenkins but at the same time being told it wasnt a serious legal problem. Being told it wasnt a serious legal problem, so you have an undocumented conversation problem, so you have an undocumented conversation with miss sule in the corridor, conversation with miss sule in the corridor, where she says it is more of a practical corridor, where she says it is more of a practical problem, it is all a red herring. Of a practical problem, it is all a red herring, and so that gives you reassuring red herring, and so that gives you reassuring is that it isnt a serious reassuring is that it isnt a serious legal problem, as you knew it to be . Serious legal problem, as you knew it to be . I serious legal problem, as you knew it to be . ,. , it to be . I have told the inquiry exactly how it to be . I have told the inquiry exactly how i it to be . I have told the inquiry exactly how i found it to be . I have told the inquiry exactly how i found out it to be . I have told the inquiry exactly how i found out in it to be . I have told the inquiry exactly how i found out in the i exactly how i found out in the conversation with lesley sule as i explained to mr beer. You conversation with lesley sule as i explained to mr beer. Conversation with lesley sule as i explained to mr beer. You see, you were fully briefed explained to mr beer. You see, you were fully briefed by explained to mr beer. You see, you were fully briefed by the explained to mr beer. You see, you were fully briefed by the lawyers, i were fully briefed by the lawyers, werent were fully briefed by the lawyers, werent you . | were fully briefed by the lawyers, werent you . Were fully briefed by the lawyers, werent you . I have spoken to the iniui werent you . I have spoken to the inquiry about werent you . I have spoken to the inquiry about this werent you . I have spoken to the inquiry about this with werent you . I have spoken to the inquiry about this with mr werent you . I have spoken to the inquiry about this with mr beer. I | inquiry about this with mr beer. I was briefed by lesley, as i explain. I came across her in the corridor looking frustrated about something and we had a conversation. And i dont believe she dismissed this as an inconvenience, or whatever you suggested. The an inconvenience, or whatever you suggested an inconvenience, or whatever you sunested. ,. ,. , suggested. The question i am putting to ou is suggested. The question i am putting to you is that suggested. The question i am putting to you is that you suggested. The question i am putting to you is that you were suggested. The question i am putting to you is that you were fully to you is that you were fully briefed to you is that you were fully briefed about this, about risk by susan briefed about this, about risk by Susan Crichton. What do you say to that . Susan crichton. What do you say to that . I Susan Crichton. What do you say to that . , , Susan Crichton. What do you say to that . , ,. , that . I was briefed by susan that Gareth Jenkins that . I was briefed by susan that Gareth Jenkins could that . I was briefed by susan that Gareth Jenkins could no that . I was briefed by susan that Gareth Jenkins could no longer i that . I was briefed by susan that| Gareth Jenkins could no longer be garethjenkins could no longer be used. I am garethjenkins could no longer be used. Iam not garethjenkins could no longer be used. I am not sure what you mean by risk. What i know now is much more about this, that Gareth Jenkins hadnt been properly briefed in the first place as an Expert Witness, and. But at the time i had no idea of the content of the simon clark advice. I of the content of the simon clark advice. ,. ,. ,~ i. , of the content of the simon clark advice. ,. ,. , i. ,. , advice. I want to ask you, please, because i advice. I want to ask you, please, because i am advice. I want to ask you, please, because i am going advice. I want to ask you, please, because i am going to advice. I want to ask you, please, because i am going to suggest i advice. I want to ask you, please, because i am going to suggest to | advice. I want to ask you, please, i because i am going to suggest to you that you because i am going to suggest to you that you must have known about this by the that you must have known about this by the end that you must have known about this by the end of august, and i want to take you by the end of august, and i want to take you to by the end of august, and i want to take you to pol, 001, 08065. And could we go to the second page, please and could we go to the second page, please and and could we go to the second page, please. And could be scroll up, please please. And could be scroll up, please. Keep going, keep going, keep going please. Keep going, keep going, keep going yes. Please. Keep going, keep going, keep going. Yes, right. Legaland adjudication of a future case. We are urgently working with our external are urgently working with our external firms to identify an independent expert to write evidence on the independent expert to write evidence on the Horizon System. Previously this was on the Horizon System. Previously this was provided by fujitsu. Why move this was provided by fujitsu. Why move from this was provided by fujitsu. Why move from this . Do we have to validate move from this . Do we have to validate fujitsu . Ok . And you said that to validate fujitsu . Ok . And you said that to Susan Crichton from memory i think it that to Susan Crichton from memory i think it was that to Susan Crichton from memory i think it was on the 23rd of august. She responds on the 28th, i think, and she she responds on the 28th, i think, and she says, we are concerned that this needs and she says, we are concerned that this needs to and she says, we are concerned that this needs to be independent rather than a this needs to be independent rather than a fujitsu verify its own system than a fujitsu verify its own system. Happy to explain the rationale further at our steering board rationale further at our steering Board Meeting this week. And that took place Board Meeting this week. And that took place on the 29th of august. 2015 took place on the 29th of august. 2015 so took place on the 29th of august. 2013. So there we have a very careful 2013. So there we have a very careful response from Susan Crichton, careful response from Susan Crichton, not putting down anything in writing, crichton, not putting down anything in writing, but she must have fully informed in writing, but she must have fully informed you about the problem by the Steering Group meeting on the 29th of the Steering Group meeting on the 29th of august, 2013. The the Steering Group meeting on the 29th of august, 2013. The Steering Group meeting on the 29th of august, 2013. The nature of this response. 29th of august, 2013. The nature of this response, which 29th of august, 2013. The nature of this response, which again 29th of august, 2013. The nature of this response, which again i 29th of august, 2013. The nature of this response, which again i have i this response, which again i have only seen this morning, but i think i am fairly clear on this, is that we were under significant pressure, as the inquiry has heard, from myself and many others in terms of cost management, and my question here was based on this, which is surely if we had to stand down mr jenkins, i dont know whether i remembered his name or not at this stage, why would we not get fujitsu to provide us another witness, another, yes, another witness . Why would we move from that . Because the cost of that had been warned by fujitsu, so my last question is does this mean, therefore, we cant do that because we have to validate fujitsu . It was a completely open, straightforward question, and susan was my answer was i will explain that to you when we meet. I was my answer was i will explain that to you when we meet. I have got ve little that to you when we meet. I have got very little time that to you when we meet. I have got very little time left that to you when we meet. I have got very little time left so that to you when we meet. I have got very little time left so i that to you when we meet. I have got very little time left so i am that to you when we meet. I have got very little time left so i am going very little time left so i am going to give very little time left so i am going to give you the document references without to give you the document references without putting them up. I suggest this knowledge changed your behaviour because your plan was to have a behaviour because your plan was to have a Lessons Learned review going into some have a Lessons Learned review going into some considerable detail, pol, 000. Into some considerable detail, pol, 000, 146243. And on the 3rd Of September 2013 that was run past bond September 2013 that was run past Bond Dickinson and you decide to limit Bond Dickinson and you decide to limit the Bond Dickinson and you decide to limit the Lessons Learned review and the risk limit the Lessons Learned review and the risk it limit the Lessons Learned review and the risk it by making it much smaller the risk it by making it much smaller in the risk it by making it much smaller in scope and age should only take place smaller in scope and age should only take place after Susan Crichton has gone take place after Susan Crichton has gone that, take place after Susan Crichton has gone. That, i suggest, is because you are gone. That, i suggest, is because you are already moving in to cover up you are already moving in to cover up mode you are already moving in to cover up mode concerning garethjenkins. No, and up mode concerning garethjenkins. No, and i up mode concerning garethjenkins. No, and i am sorry we have not got time to go through that because i read that document this morning. There were two issues around the Lessons Learned review. I was looking for, as the inquiry has heard, a very fast review because i was faced with how do we really make the scheme work Going Forward . How do we work properly and carefully with the jf sa do we work properly and carefully with thejf sa and second site . And what were the Lessons Learned . When i came back from holiday there was a different process put in place. Susan and simon baker were leaving the organisation and part of that review had been to look at how, as i explained yesterday, the project management had not been handled as well as it could have been. As they were leaving the organisation, the requirement was for something fairly fast and speedy so we could move forward. At the same time, and i was not aware of this, i guess it must have been susan, somebody sought advice from dickinson who came back with, i have only seen it this morning, a 3 page notice as to why from a legal point of view the review should not be taken forward. And so that is what happened. And . And so that is what happened. Andy parsons was and so that is what happened. Andy parsons was telling and so that is what happened. Andy parsons was telling you it would blow parsons was telling you it would blow open duties of proactive disclosure for criminal appeals. It is a disclosure for criminal appeals. Is a very disclosure for criminal appeals. It is a very long note and there is a lot of legal information in it and i say to the person who forwarded it to me, thank you, i can see what this is, and then i say i am going to discuss it. I have seen nothing more, mr henry. But if you are suggesting that i had suddenly changed my approach to things, that was not the case. You changed my approach to things, that was not the case. Was not the case. You said the time it was helpful. Was not the case. You said the time it was helpful, that was not the case. You said the time it was helpful, that you was not the case. You said the time it was helpful, that you would it was helpful, that you would follow it was helpful, that you would follow their advice and the timing was helpful and the timing was helpful was helpful and the timing was helpful because you knew about gareth helpful because you knew about Gareth Jenkins. Helpful because you knew about garethjenkins. You knew about helpful because you knew about Gareth Jenkins. You knew about the unsafe Gareth Jenkins. You knew about the unsafe witness and you did nothing to disclose unsafe witness and you did nothing to disclose it. To disclose it. That is not the case. To disclose it. That is not the case and to disclose it. That is not the case and i to disclose it. That is not the case. And i think to disclose it. That is not the case. And i think it to disclose it. That is not the case. And i think it is to disclose it. That is not the case. And i think it is really i case. And i think it is really important. That is not the case, i did not know that. If the post office knew it, it should have disclosed it, and that advice should have come to the board. Iurethat disclosed it, and that advice should have come to the board. What legal knowledie have come to the board. What legal knowledge do have come to the board. What legal knowledge do you have come to the board. What legal knowledge do you need have come to the board. What legal knowledge do you need to have come to the board. What legal knowledge do you need to know, i have come to the board. What legal i knowledge do you need to know, that if an unsafe knowledge do you need to know, that if an unsafe witness has given false witness, if an unsafe witness has given false witness, or if an unsafe witness has given false witness, orfalse if an unsafe witness has given false witness, or false evidence against somebody witness, or false evidence against somebody by not telling the whole picture somebody by not telling the whole picture about horizons integrity, what picture about horizons integrity, what legal knowledge did you need to know to what legal knowledge did you need to know to say, oh, well, we should tell her know to say, oh, well, we should tell her lawyers . | know to say, oh, well, we should tell her lawyers . Know to say, oh, well, we should tell her lawyers . I understood we were in the tell her lawyers . I understood we were in the process tell her lawyers . I understood we were in the process of tell her lawyers . I understood we were in the process of disclosing | were in the process of disclosing it, the second site report, and i learned later the helen rose report. 50 learned later the helen rose report learned later the helen rose reort. , report. So day three of tessa murray from report. So day three of tessa murray from paula report. So day three of tessa murray from Paula Vennells, i report. So day three of tessa i murray from Paula Vennells, the ex boss of the post office. You can follow that on the bbc news website. So many things for us to bring you, a lot of live events happening, as you would expect on day two of the Election Campaign. Six weeks from now the uk will go to the polls and we have got the Party Leaders out and about around the country launching their bid for your votes. We are going to talk to our two correspondence who are travelling with those two leaders. Nick eardley is in Northern Ireland with the Prime Minister rishi sunak. Leila matthew is on eastbourne with the liberal immigrants. Lets go to nick in Northern Ireland. I am looking at pictures of rishi sunak and he has been visiting some sort of Maritime Technology centre. Where has he been . Technology centre. Where has he been . , � been . Yes, indeed, he is in belfast workin been . Yes, indeed, he is in belfast working with been . Yes, indeed, he is in belfast working with workers been . Yes, indeed, he is in belfast working with workers here. Been . Yes, indeed, he is in belfast working with workers here. In been . Yes, indeed, he is in belfast| working with workers here. In some ways it is a bit strange for the Prime Minister to be campaigning in Northern Ireland. The conservatives hardly stand any candidates here. They only got 5000 votes in Northern Ireland in the last general election. But rishi sunak wanted to kick off this campaign with a bang, get around the uk, and it means now as of five to 11 on friday we have been to all nations in the uk with the Prime Minister. It is also interesting that while he is here and he is talking about the things you would expect him to talk about, there is a lot going on at westminster because they are trying to shove through pieces of legislation at the last minute before parliament packs up later today. They are not going to get through some big things that rishi sunak promised. You will remember one of the things that could have been his legacy was the smoking ban, the idea that no one after 2009 with every legally be able to buy cigarettes in the uk. That will not happen now because they have run out of time to do it. It will be junked at the end of the day and although rishi sunak says he is committed to it, if he is not Prime Minister he will not have the chance. The idea of the renters� reform bill has been scrapped as well, again because they have run out of time. It is raising a few eyebrows among some people, questioning rishi sunak wanted to go for an election and get on the front foot but it has made significant things the conservative party had promised the electorate are nowjust not going to get through. He will not going to get through. He will not be able to say at the general election that we delivered that. The messages you will hear hammered over the next few weeks from rishi sunak are about the economy, turning a corner, about the idea he has bold plans to deal with some of the country� s problems, but there are some things that he made a big deal with over the last few months that he will not be able to tell voters that they are due. He will not be able to tell voters that they are due. We will let you car on that they are due. We will let you carry on with that they are due. We will let you carry on with the that they are due. We will let you carry on with the tour that they are due. We will let you carry on with the tour around carry on with the tour around Northern Ireland. Nick eardley travelling with the Prime Minister. Let� s go to the south coast. You are travelling with ed davey, the liberal democrat leader in eastbourne. I am looking here, liberal democrat leader in eastbourne. Iam looking here, he liberal democrat leader in eastbourne. I am looking here, he is visiting a number of places on the south coast. One of his pledges i see this morning is that patients in england will have the right to see a gp within seven days. All the leaders are trying to get those votes and tap into what the public want to hear from their politicians. Good morning. We are expecting sir ed davey here on eastbourne pier in the next half an hour or so. He is here in eastbourne, very interesting to see this, it is one that has gone back and forth between the tories and the lib dems in the last few elections. It is one of the lib dems are� key targets. Ed davey started off his campaign in cheltenham, a hugely marginal seat, yesterday, talking about change. He wants to focus on the seats where the lib dems are the leading challengers for the tories, a lot in the south and south east of england and the south coast. He is focusing on where the lib dems can represent the main challenge and his message is, if you want to get rid of the tories vote lib dem in these particular target seats. Today he wants to talk about gp appointments, the lib dems settling around a few issues, the nhs, cost of living and sewage are the main issues on the doorsteps for them. They want to talk about increasing the number of gps by 8000, that was a tory manifesto promised in 2019. The tories then promised in 2019. The tories then promised 6000 more gps by 2024 and only got a fraction of that, maybe 2000 or so extra since they promise that. I think there is a sense that everyone is focusing on the frustration with the nhs and waiting times and at hospital times and at hospital level as well. Certainly ed davey thinks that is a vote winner here. The lib dems are only down to 15 or so mps. In 2010 they were up at 57, so they do have a long way to go to get back to those sort of numbers that we saw in 2010. They will be hoping to make some progress in these areas where they are targeting and they can present themselves as the main challengers to the tories. Brute themselves as the main challengers to the tories to the tories. We will be back with ou as to the tories. We will be back with you as soon to the tories. We will be back with you as soon as to the tories. We will be back with you as soon as we to the tories. We will be back with you as soon as we hear to the tories. We will be back with you as soon as we hear from to the tories. We will be back with you as soon as we hear from ed i you as soon as we hear from ed davey. The headlines are coming up for you very shortly. Live from london. This is bbc news. Day two of the general Election Campaign and the Labour Leader has been making his pitch to voters. He is not scared to debate rishi sunak on tv. Meanwhile, the former leader corbyn said he will stand against an independent candidate against his own party in his north london constituency. Also ahead of this hour, the ex post office buys Paula Vennells is entering her inquiry as hundreds of former Sub Postmasters are having their wrongful convictions quashed. Hello and welcome to bbc news. It is the last day for mps to vote in pass bills into law before the general election. Party leaders are travelling to all four corners of the uk in their campaign for votes. The Labour Leader, sergei keir starmer is in scotland and the Prime Minister pretty soon and is visiting Northern Ireland. Our Political Correspondent is there. We were talking just a moment ago, we are expecting a debut with the under po there, it looks glorious and they are talking about issues. Yes. There, it looks glorious and they are talking about issues. Yes, very briht are talking about issues. Yes, very bri. Ht and are talking about issues. Yes, very bright and breezy are talking about issues. Yes, very bright and breezy here are talking about issues. Yes, very bright and breezy here this are talking about issues. Yes, very i bright and breezy here this morning. I think we will hear lib dems gathering a little bit away, and i want to talk about gp appointments here. A really interesting seat in east one, it is one of those seats that lib dems are targeting, they want to focus on where they have gone second into the tories in the past election, that is where they think they stand the greatest chance of making progress. The lib dems have taken the seat back, it has gone back and forth between tories and lib dems in the last few elections. They think they stand a good chance here, have some momentum building them a strong showing in the local elections. They have taken a couple of councils off the tories in the south of england, that shows the momentum is behind them. We do know that lib dems are traditionally stronger in local elections and they are in general ones, but they will be encouraged by stronger showings in recent by elections. They had built up the number of mps, four expert lib dems since 2019. Bringing them to a total of 15. They are hoping to make some progress with a dissolution to tory voters, and they are also trying to convey the message that circular summer is trying to convey, that if you are in a seat that lib dems are the main challenge to and you want the tories out, the lib dems is way should build. Expecting baby here very shortly, he is trying his target seats first. We saw him yesterday in cheltenham,. Only in the hundreds, the majority here from tory mp is about 4000, he has got a bit further to go there, and clearly this is somewhere that he thinks he has got a strong chance of winning, he will be talking about gps trying to recruit 80,000 new gps, 4000 extra in the next five years, and also to entice 4000 gps to try to stay in bhf instead of retiring or going elsewhere. He is promising to enshrine a legal right to everyone to get a gp appointment within seven days and 24 hours, if it is urgent, we were asking a bit more about that. They certainly think the nhs is one of their key areas that they have been hearing a lot about on the doorsteps, when they have been going towards the door in this campaign survive. And indeed in the run up to the local elections earlier this month. They are focusing on the nhs, focusing on sewage, that is playing well with their voters. They are up against toys in certain constituencies, and also The Cost Of Living, so expect to hear much more of that from davey when he arrived here in the next 15 minutes or so. And it is fascinating, given that date being fed for the general election took so many people by surprise. It is one thing to be in opposition and criticise the government, but there is so much more scrutiny now, of the individual policies, individual parties, and they have got to communicate that to voters. They have not got much time to do it. , , voters. They have not got much time todo it. , ,. , to do it. Now, the lib dems are alwa s to do it. Now, the lib dems are always very to do it. Now, the lib dems are always very proud to do it. Now, the lib dems are always very proud when to do it. Now, the lib dems are always very proud when you to do it. Now, the lib dems are| always very proud when you talk to do it. Now, the lib dems are i always very proud when you talk to them of their grand army, mo made a very good gains in their local elections. The Council Elections in england as well, earlier this month. They have boots on the ground, traditionally, the lib dems, they will activate them pretty quickly. For the lib dems it is an interesting dynamic, they cannot claim to be putting forward a plan for government, they have got their policy areas that they are focusing on. But it is not a credible proposition for them to talk about what they would do in government. Having said that, though it has been target in recent months about what happen if there was a hung parliament. The lib dems are trying to give a sense of where their policy priorities are, we have heard from them that they have ruled out categorically going into correlation with the conservatives, it has cost them damage when they did that back in 2010. They have not ruled out in any way going into coalition with the labour party, should that situation arise. That is the message you get from labour, they are focusing on core issues, they have highlighted those three issues, nhs, cost of living, and sewage. Those are the areas they think they stand the best chance on, they are focusing on them because of the specific seats they are targeting. They say they have got 80 or so seats in play where they came second in the last election. There are boundary changes this time, so the seats will have a slightly different composition and make up, not as straightforward as comparing directly to 2019. They think they are competitive and dozens of seats across the country, the south west of england, in areas where the tories have traditionally been strong. Davey will be trying to get his message across that these are his message across that these are his priorities, that he can take those votes up the tories. Brute his priorities, that he can take those votes up the tories. We will talk about what those votes up the tories. We will talk about what those those votes up the tories. We will talk about what those boundary i talk about what those boundary changes could mean, thank you. We will be back with you when davey joins you on that pier. Let� s talk to the senior Political Correspondent at the time. There is a bit of a feeling like it is the last day of school time, we know mps are trying to push through, the government is trying to push through as many bills as they can. Talk to me all about what has gone through, really crucial one, that exaggerates all of those x postmasters explain what is going on. This all of those x postmasters explain what is going on. What is going on. This is a very important what is going on. This is a very important bill, what is going on. This is a very important bill, does what is going on. This is a very i important bill, does postmasters would have been a massive uproar if this had not made it through this wash out period. Which is where bills that are uncontested and essential get through in the last couple of days. What this essentially does is put to the agreements that were made in place, basically crashed those convictions of those postmasters. It is essential that this got through, if it had not it would have been an absolute outcry. Her scandal, you have seen in the inquiry in the last few days, it has been very affected by it. It was crucial that that got through. By it. It was crucial that that got throu. H. By it. It was crucial that that got throuih. ,. , ~ by it. It was crucial that that got throuih. ,. , ~ ,. , by it. It was crucial that that got throuih. , through. The smoking ban bill did not aet through. The smoking ban bill did not get through. Through. The smoking ban bill did not get through, the through. The smoking ban bill did| not get through, the conservatives have said they are still committed to it and as rishi sunak returns to Downing Street injuly he will push ahead with it. Labour are also saying this morning they believe in it, it feels that regardless of who becomes the next occupant, that it may actually happen. It becomes the next occupant, that it may actually happen. Becomes the next occupant, that it may actually happen. It may happen, how it happens may actually happen. It may happen, how it happens is may actually happen. It may happen, how it happens is really may actually happen. It may happen, how it happens is really the how it happens is really the question. This is a big announcement for rishi sunak, he sent his legacy on the fact that this was happening, it was in his Conference Speech last year, and in the speech that he gave when he was covering the election. It was on graphics. The fact that he isn� t making it through, is quite a big deal. There will be quite a lot of conservatives in this party that are thankful, and with a quite controversial piece of legislation but as you say, labour were supportive. What will remain to be seen is if the labourform the government, which we are expecting them to do, how they enact that legislation, if there will be any changes to the mechanism as it stands. It was essentially making it impossible for people to smoke and it might have created a strange situation where one person could buy cigarettes and another person couldn� t. We will have to see if there are any changes. Tbs, couldnt. We will have to see if there are any changes. Couldnt. We will have to see if there are any changes. A brief one, there are any changes. A brief one, the leader is there are any changes. A brief one, the leader is crisscrossing there are any changes. A brief one, the leader is crisscrossing the the leader is crisscrossing the country is today, they have been out on the Campaign Trail already, they are making their picture abodes early on. One hopes before the break of that bank holiday weekend, would you make of the performance of i . Will enact what we had seen is the start of these campaigns and the overarching message, labour give that a single word, change. And the conservatives are that a single word, change. And the conservative conservatives are arguing that it is better the devil conservatives are arguing that it is better the devil you conservatives are arguing that it is better the devil you know. Conservatives are arguing that it is better the devil you know. I conservatives are arguing that it is better the devil you know. I think. Better the devil you know. I think we will see lots more of that. I don� t think any of it is going to slow down, people like me are going to be working six weeks straight, seeing how those messages translate into policies and how they land with the public. Into policies and how they land with the ublic. ,. ,. , ~ the public. Very good to talk with ou, the public. Very good to talk with you. Thank the public. Very good to talk with you. Thank you the public. Very good to talk with you, thank you very the public. Very good to talk with you, thank you very much. The public. Very good to talk with you, thank you very much. Lets i the public. Very good to talk with i you, thank you very much. Lets talk you, thank you very much. Let� s talk now to the co editor of tribune magazine. As far as labour are concerned, Jeremy Corbyn, the former leader who contested the election last time, will stand as an independent. Last time, will stand as an independent. Last time, will stand as an indeendent. , ~ independent. That is right, i think Jeremy Corbyn independent. That is right, i think Jeremy Corbyn did independent. That is right, i think Jeremy Corbyn did not independent. That is right, i think Jeremy Corbyn did not want independent. That is right, i think Jeremy Corbyn did not want this i independent. That is right, i think| Jeremy Corbyn did not want this to happen, he wanted to be that Labour Candidate. Members of his local labour party wanted to select their candidate and that has not happened yet. It will not happen. It is going to be a very interesting election, i think labour has a majority, i believe, i believe labour got 34,000 votes in the last general election. Jeremy corbyn is a very popular constituency labour mp, he has got a high profile, i don� t think it will be a work in the park but i think he has a chance of winning. Rishi sunak has a chance of winning. Rishi sunak has been in has a chance of winning. Rishi sunak has been in northern has a chance of winning. Rishi sunak has been in Northern Ireland has been in Northern Ireland today, it might feel a bit strange because he is not got a lot he can do in Northern Ireland when it comes to westminster politics. Talking about labour in scotland, keir starmer is there, he has been launching the scottish labour Election Campaign. He is there a day after rishi sunak, but scotland is really important for labour in the selection. Yes. But scotland is really important for labour in the selection. Labour in the selection. Yes, i think this labour in the selection. Yes, i think this could labour in the selection. Yes, i think this could not labour in the selection. Yes, i think this could not have labour in the selection. Yes, i | think this could not have come labour in the selection. Yes, i i think this could not have come at labour in the selection. Yes, i think this could not have come at a better time for labour. We are struggling in scotland, i think where the snp felt a bit more helpful is their stance on the capital benefits, which labour has said they want it repealed. The snp has consistently said that the labour is not doing enough on child poverty, i think when gaza as well, the snp winning the First Political parties to call for a ceasefire. These are the sorts of issues that the snp are going to be raising. That said, i think they will struggle to hold onto many of their seats, so i think labour are going to pick up significant support in scotland. The possibility that this is going to be quite a difficult time for the Scottish National party. Time for the Scottish National pa. ~. , time for the Scottish National pa. ,. ,. , time for the Scottish National pa. ~ ,. ,. ,. , time for the Scottish National pa. , party. We start to get a bit of detail how. Party. We start to get a bit of detail now, it party. We start to get a bit of detail now, it is party. We start to get a bit of detail now, it is due party. We start to get a bit of detail now, it is due two party. We start to get a bit of detail now, it is due two of i party. We start to get a bit of i detail now, it is due two of this long campaign. Keir starmer is doing his party will only commit to stuff they can fund or resource, we will only make commitments about things that we know we can� t fulfil, he says. He has been quite clear this morning and thinks he won� t fulfil. Ifind that quite morning and thinks he won� t fulfil. I find that quite disappointing, every decision the government makes is a conscious political choice, in particular the two child capital benefits, that would cost 1 of the welfare budget to abolish. And it would lift 300,000 children out of poverty, those are the sorts of things that people want to hear about, they want to hear about Political Parties about their tax and spend plans, what will you do for the National Health service, what will you do to tackle the housing crisis . I think labour are going to win a landslide majority at the next general election, partly because the tories are in disarray. But when they are in government, it becomes very different, and labour are going to have to provide Serious Solutions to multiple crises that people across the country are facing. People across the country are facina. ,. , facing. Yes, there will be scrutiny at this policies facing. Yes, there will be scrutiny at this policies as facing. Yes, there will be scrutiny at this policies as well facing. Yes, there will be scrutiny at this policies as well as facing. Yes, there will be scrutiny at this policies as well as part facing. Yes, there will be scrutiny at this policies as well as part of. At this policies as well as part of this campaign for all parties. Thank you very much. So, like i said, there is a lot going on this morning. We have been listening to testimony on the final day of the evidence been given both Paula Vennells, the former Chief Executive of the post Office Facing some very difficult questioning this morning by the barrister representing a number of Sub Postmasters at the inquiry about her faulty horizon it system. She was told that she was living in a cloud of denial, and she said she tried to execute her responsibility to the best of her ability. Let� s speak with our correspondent. It has been quite tough questioning for a myth Paula Vennells this morning, what do you make of that testimony that you had . Yes, it has been, right off the bat, a victim for the lawyers asked, there were so many folks on the road, you always took the wrong path, didn� t you . She accepted that she hadn� t always made the right decisions. As has been the case throughout this inquiry, when victims and lawyers to ask questions, it is impassioned. She has been spared no reprieve, she was told she lives in a cloud of denial, that she is living in denial and he questioned the timeline when it came to what she knew and when she knew it, particularly the issue of Remote Access. The fact that the Sub Postmasters accounts could be accessed without them even knowing it, that information was not passed on to them at the time. But also, watching a broad fujitsu employee who gave evidence and a false statement to court which led to the conviction of the Sub Postmaster in 2010 in guildford. Take a listen to some of the exchanges. You 2010 in guildford. Take a listen to some of the exchanges. Some of the exchanges. You are responsible some of the exchanges. You are responsible for some of the exchanges. You are responsible for your some of the exchanges. 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I detriment, because of the way through i have put this first. [i through i have put this first. Suggest to you that you still continue to live in a cloud of deniat continue to live in a cloud of deniat | continue to live in a cloud of denial. ,. ,. , continue to live in a cloud of denial. ,. ,. ,. , ~. , denial. I also want to talk about the horizon denial. I also want to talk about the Horizon System denial. I also want to talk about the Horizon System offences i denial. I also want to talk about| the Horizon System offences bill that will receive royal assent later today, it has quashed convictions for Hundreds Of Sub Postmasters, we have spoken to a solicitor for some of the victims, he said he is concerned that many Sub Postmasters don� t actually know about it. He says the government did not write letters to then and that he is concerned, given we are entering an election, that they may not be any further action on it. He said it is like enhancing christmas, but not giving the date. {liiq like enhancing christmas, but not giving the date. Giving the date. Ok, very good to talk with you. Giving the date. Ok, very good to talk with you, we giving the date. Ok, very good to talk with you, we will giving the date. Ok, very good to talk with you, we will be giving the date. Ok, very good to talk with you, we will be back giving the date. Ok, very good to | talk with you, we will be back with you later, now i want to take it straight to eastbourne where that liberal democrat leader is speaking. Let� s listen in. He is laying out his priorities, and obviously in a bid to win your vote. Bid to win your vote. Very, very excited about bid to win your vote. Very, very excited about this bid to win your vote. Very, very excited about this election, bid to win your vote. Very, very excited about this election, i i bid to win your vote. Very, very i excited about this election, i think the hold country wants to see the back of the conservatives, but there has got to be a set of ideas that we bring to this change to transform our country. Liberal democrats have made the Health Service and our care system in the centre of our campaign. Today we are delighted to announce our policy on gps, so many people tell us that they cannot get a gp appointment in the time they want. They are having to wait days and weeks in some cases. We want to legislate to give people a right to see a gp within seven days, or within 24 hours if they have got an urgent problem. Now, gps are overrun at the moment, they are doing a fantasticjob but we need many more of them, so if we can recruit and train more gps, we can deliver on that exciting policy. So that people can see a gp when they want to, whenever they need to see them. So we have got a detailed policy and we will put that to the electoral when we publish our manifesto. We are so excited to come forward with new ideas about how we can transform our health system, that will really help people who are struggling at the moment. I am people who are struggling at the moment. Iam particularly people who are struggling at the moment. I am particularly keen to be here withjosh, he is a star, for those of you who do not know, he was the inspiration behind the First Council here in eastbourne, the first liberal democrat run council, to declare a cost of living emergency when The Cost Of Living crisis hit our country. That is an example of how charge is already a leader here in eastbourne. Looking after the most vulnerable people, understanding the issue of The Cost Of Living, how it is really hurting so many people, so many families and pensioners. He is not yet the mp, but he is already doing the job of an mp. Josh, we� re so proud of you. And i am so pleased to be here with you, you have campaigned notjust on The Cost Of Living, but on the service here, the considerable let down on the people of eastbourne under servers, down on the people of eastbourne underservers, i believe down on the people of eastbourne under servers, i believe you were born at the local hospital. They have allowed services to be taken away, i don� t believe you can be borne out in eastbourne. Away, i dont believe you can be borne out in eastbourne. Away, i dont believe you can be borne out in eastbourne. Birds are susended borne out in eastbourne. Birds are suspended at borne out in eastbourne. Birds are suspended at the borne out in eastbourne. Birds are suspended at the hospital. Borne out in eastbourne. Birds are suspended at the hospital. That i borne out in eastbourne. Birds are suspended at the hospital. That is| borne out in eastbourne. Birds are. Suspended at the hospital. That is a sin on suspended at the hospital. That is a sign on how suspended at the hospital. That is a sign on how promises suspended at the hospital. That is a sign on how promises have suspended at the hospital. That is a sign on how promises have failed i suspended at the hospital. That is a sign on how promises have failed to be delivered and why we need josh in the house of commons. And our other big campaign on sewage, josh has been leading that campaign. Southern water being allowed to pump their filthy sewage into the beaches here, which is very bad for our environment, so bad for people wanting to see in here, and bad for tourism which is such an important part of eastbourne. We have the ideas and we also had the candidates. I am delighted to be here, to help launch this Amazing Campaign and to seejosh elected as the next mp for eastbourne. Thank you very much. Applause it does not look like he will be taking any questions, but as we said, the focus for the liberal democrat leader there as he whitney ks his way along the south coast of england, is a pledge to guarantee that patients in england will have the right to see a gp within seven days. That is the scene in eastbourne, our correspondent is following events there for us. We will take you there if there are any further details or further comments from the liberal democrat leader. We also know that the Prime Minister rishi sunak has been in Northern Ireland, and of course we showed you a little earlier keir starmer launching the scottish labour Election Campaign in glasgow. They may trip leaders out around the country and this early bid for your bucks in the general election. It might be a bit of a quieter weekend with the bank holiday, said they are getting in while they can on day two of this Election Campaign. We came away from the post Office Inquiry, where Paula Vennells is giving her third and final day of answers. It has been pretty bruising sulphide this morning, let� s listen what is happening right now. At, this morning, lets listen what is happening right now. A significant ob cut, happening right now. A significant iob cut. Post happening right now. A significant job cut, post office happening right now. A significant job cut, post office was happening right now. A significant job cut, post office was limited i happening right now. A significant job cut, post office was limited to | job cut, post office was limited to the crown post offices were affected. ~ the crown post offices were affected the crown post offices were affected. ~. ,. , , affected. We agreed that this is the latest attempt affected. We agreed that this is the latest attempt to affected. We agreed that this is the latest attempt to get affected. We agreed that this is the latest attempt to get the affected. We agreed that this is the latest attempt to get the post latest attempt to get the post office latest attempt to get the post office back on the rails. I am trying office back on the rails. I am trying to office back on the rails. I am trying to establish, that also included trying to establish, that also included a hard one, the no doubt complex included a hard one, the no doubt complex financial negotiation to ensure complex financial negotiation to ensure there was a financial package from the ensure there was a financial package from the government of 1. 6 billion. That is from the government of 1. 6 billion. That is correct. As from the government of 1. 6 billion. That is correct. That is correct. As i understand, the papers that is correct. As i understand, the papers that that is correct. As i understand, the papers that relate that is correct. As i understand, the papers that relate to that is correct. As i understand, the papers that relate to this, i that is correct. As i understand, i the papers that relate to this, the total that the papers that relate to this, the total that is going to be achieved by way total that is going to be achieved by way of total that is going to be achieved by way of an injection of cash into the post by way of an injection of cash into the post office would include another the post office would include another 400 million, taking the post office would include another400 million, taking it up the post office would include another 400 million, taking it up to £2 billion another 400 million, taking it up to £2 billion is another 400 million, taking it up to £2 billion. Is that about right . I do £2 billion. Is that about right . Do not we £2 billion. Is that about right . I do not we collect the 2 billion figure, it was divided into parts, and ongoing subsidy to keep the post office is going, and the other was an investment. Igate office is going, and the other was an investment. Office is going, and the other was an investment. We know that this is onaioin , an investment. We know that this is ongoing. Does an investment. We know that this is ongoing. Does the an investment. We know that this is ongoing, does the post an investment. We know that this is ongoing, does the post office ongoing, does the post Office Transformation documents, the third report transformation documents, the third report of transformation documents, the third report of the session of the house of commons business and innovation skills of commons business and innovation skills committee, a committee you may recall skills committee, a committee you may recall attending. That was in 2012 may recall attending. That was in 2012 by may recall attending. That was in 2012. Bythe may recall attending. That was in 2012. By the time we get to 2013, the Network Transformation programme was starting to work, wasnt it . It was starting to work, wasnt it . It was leading was starting to work, wasnt it . It was leading to some improvement in the business by ability, do you agree . The business by ability, do you agree . | the business by ability, do you airee . , the business by ability, do you aree . ,. , , agree . I am not sure i remember that, my recollection agree . I am not sure i remember that, my recollection of agree . I am not sure i remember that, my recollection of the agree . I am not sure i remember i that, my recollection of the Network Transformation programme with a very difficult meeting with the minister, where we were told that instead of converting 19 , we had to get to 50. I believe that was around 2013, i think it was another couple of years before the impacts were made. Eventually though, it was successful, by 2016 the Balance Sheet successful, by 2016 the Balance Sheet was looking better, essentially, the post office had come essentially, the post office had come into commercial viability. Do you accept come into commercial viability. Do you accept that . And that is largely how you you accept that . And that is largely how you got your cbe, by being able to parade how you got your cbe, by being able to parade the fact that this was your to parade the fact that this was your work to parade the fact that this was your work as a ceo of the post office your work as a ceo of the post office that your work as a ceo of the post office that led the post offices transformation into commercial viability transformation into commercial viability. That is what you have got the gong viability. That is what you have got the gong for, isnt it . | viability. That is what you have got the gong for, isnt it . I did viability. That is what you have got the gong for, isnt it . The gong for, isnt it . I did not ut the gong for, isnt it . I did not put together the gong for, isnt it . I did not put together the the gong for, isnt it . I did not put together the testimonial i the gong for, isnt it . I did not| put together the testimonial for the gong for, isnt it . I did not put together the testimonial for the cbe, i neversaw put together the testimonial for the cbe, i never saw what it was recommended, and for charity, i am sure that was part of it, but the other part of the turnaround of the post office was keeping a post offices and communities across the uk. When ijoined, the Network Change programme, we were closing thousands of post offices, that was devastating communities. One of the significant outcomes of Network Transformation, and the whole turnaround programme, with that post offices became sustainable. Very few closed. The uk was better served, in that sense. , ~ ,. , closed. The uk was better served, in that sense that sense. Thank you, for describing that sense. Thank you, for describing your that sense. Thank you, for describing your view that sense. Thank you, for describing your view on i that sense. Thank you, for i describing your view on what happened. We do know that in 2013, by that happened. We do know that in 2013, by that point, we have had all of these by that point, we have had all of these different programmes in place to try these different programmes in place to try and these different programmes in place to try and rescue the post office. The latest to try and rescue the post office. The latest one, the latest attempt with Network Transformation. Lets see how with Network Transformation. Lets see how we with Network Transformation. Lets see how we compare that to what actually see how we compare that to what actually happened in relation to the horizon actually happened in relation to the Horizon System. On your account, you had been Horizon System. On your account, you had been repeatedly assured that the horizon had been repeatedly assured that the Horizon System was reliable. Do you agree Horizon System was reliable. Do you agree with Horizon System was reliable. Do you agree with that . I Horizon System was reliable. Do you agree with that . Horizon system was reliable. Do you agree with that . By Horizon System was reliable. Do you agree with that . By 2013, | agree with that . I agree. By 2013, ou know agree with that . I agree. By 2013, you know that agree with that . I agree. By 2013, you know that bugs agree with that . I agree. By 2013, you know that bugs existed agree with that . I agree. By 2013, you know that bugs existed within | you know that bugs existed within the Horizon System, is that correct . Law it the Horizon System, is that correct . Law it is the Horizon System, is that correct . Law it is correct. The 62 branch issue. Law it is correct. The 62 branch issue, otherwise known as the mismatched bug, and you accept in your statement in paragraph 390 that those your statement in paragraph 390 that those two your statement in paragraph 390 that those two bugs were significant, do you agree . Those two bugs were significant, do you agree . Ok, later on, in 2014, the fourth you agree . Ok, later on, in 2014, the fourth bug was learnt by you. In july of the fourth bug was learnt by you. In july of 2013, in your statement. Do you agree . July of 2013, in your statement. Do you agree . Ideal. By that point, july 2014. You agree . Ideal. By that point, july 2014, you had learned that three july 2014, you had learned that three bugs existed in the Horizon System three bugs existed in the Horizon System ts three bugs existed in the Horizon System. Is that right . Now, without getting system. Is that right . Now, without getting into any detail, you also learned getting into any detail, you also learned in getting into any detail, you also learned in the midst of 2013 that the expert used to support prosecution had failed to mention bus prosecution had failed to mention bugs in prosecution had failed to mention bugs in the system, and that thereby disqualified himself of acting in future disqualified himself of acting in future cases, is that correct . Yes, could you future cases, is that correct . Yes, could you say future cases, is that correct . Yes, could you say that future cases, is that correct . Yes, could you say that again . Future cases, is that correct . Yes, could you say that again . You future cases, is that correct . Yes, | could you say that again . You have learnt by mid2013 could you say that again . You have learnt by mid2013 that could you say that again . You have learnt by mid2013 that the could you say that again . You have learnt by mid2013 that the expert| learnt by mid 2013 that the expert used to learnt by mid 2013 that the expert used to that had failed to mention bus used to that had failed to mention bugs in used to that had failed to mention bugs in the system. Bugs in the system. Yes, i had learned that bugs in the system. Yes, i had learned that he bugs in the system. Yes, i had learned that he failed bugs in the system. Yes, i had learned that he failed to learned that he failed to mention two bugs, that is my understanding. And when it was explained to me, the explanation was that he had not identified the impact of this two bugs on the case, that was applicable. Bugs on the case, that was applicable. Bugs on the case, that was applicable. And has thereby disqualified applicable. And has thereby disqualified himself applicable. And has thereby disqualified himself to applicable. And has thereby disqualified himself to act applicable. And has thereby disqualified himself to act on | disqualified himself to act on further disqualified himself to act on further cases, did you know that as welli further cases, did you know that as well, that further cases, did you know that as well, that in further cases, did you know that as well, that in mid 2013 questions were well, that in mid 2013 questions were being asked . Well, that in mid2013 questions were being asked . Well, that in mid 2013 questions were being asked . Yes. You had learnt something were being asked . Is; you had learnt something about the fact that mr scott. Learnt something about the fact that mr scott, head of security, ex police mr scott, head of security, ex police officer, who was the person with control over whether people should with control over whether people should be with control over whether people should be prosecuted, had been said to have should be prosecuted, had been said to have interfered with the proper record to have interfered with the proper Record Keeping of meetings, designed as a hub Record Keeping of meetings, designed as a hub for Record Keeping of meetings, designed as a hub for horizon related issues as a hub for horizon related issues. The agree with that as well . Right issues. The agree with that as well . Right by issues. The agree with that as well . Right. By this point, serial complainants about investigation, civil actions, and prosecutions, complainants about investigation, civilactions, and prosecutions, do you agree . Civilactions, and prosecutions, do you agree . You had had letters that were gone you agree . You had had letters that were gone through yesterday from Sub Postmasters coming into your own office. Sub postmasters coming into your own office, complaining about the lady had been office, complaining about the lady had been treated. Yes. There were articles in the had been treated. Is; there were articles in the pairs, and other press articles in the pairs, and other press outlets, you had that as well, mid2013 . Press outlets, you had that as well, mid2013 . And press outlets, you had that as well, mid 2013 . And you also said in evidence mid 2013 . And you also said in evidence this week on wednesday, in reply that evidence this week on wednesday, in reply that by 2012 you had learnt for the reply that by 2012 you had learnt for the first time that the post office for the first time that the post Office Actually took their own people Office Actually took their own people to court. Against what you said it people to court. Against what you said it was people to court. Against what you said it was your assumption that those said it was your assumption that those matters were persecuted by the police those matters were persecuted by the police so those matters were persecuted by the police. So you learned that in 2012, is that police. So you learned that in 2012, is that right . Police. So you learned that in 2012, is that right . Yes. So if we tied oints is that right . Yes. So if we tied points together, is that right . Is; so if we tied points together, by 2012 you had learnt points together, by 2012 you had learnt about the fact that the post office learnt about the fact that the post office had learnt about the fact that the post office had prosecuted people. By 2013. Office had prosecuted people. By 2013, you office had prosecuted people. By 2013, you learned that the fact was the post 2013, you learned that the fact was the post office prosecuted its own people. The post office prosecuted its own people, and the expert being used to support people, and the expert being used to support those prosecutions was no longer support those prosecutions was no longer regarded as reliable, is that right . Longer regarded as reliable, is that riiht . You longer regarded as reliable, is that right . Yes. You also learned that there was a right . Yes. You also learned that there was a financial right . Is; you also learned that there was a financial risk to the post there was a financial risk to the post office that had to be discussed with the post office that had to be discussed with the board, arising from possible with the board, arising from possible attempts to reopen past convictions, you had learned about that convictions, you had learned about that, havent you . Do you agree, when that, havent you . Do you agree, when considering this entire collection of information, that your belief collection of information, that your belief in collection of information, that your belief in the Horizon System had been belief in the Horizon System had been shaken to the core . Asi as i have explained over the last couple of days and in my statement, i� m sure you don� t want to go back to those different points, but i as i have explained previously, my understanding around the bugs is that they had been fixed, that they affected a small number of post offices, that mrjenkins had to be stood down because of that and that the post office was no longer bringing prosecutions and that it would look for a next were Expert Witness that a future stage. I was not aware as i have said a number of times now that the elements around mrjenkins had closed the post office to breach its duties as a prosecutor. And i accept the other matters that you have explained. This was an entire collection of horizon this was an entire collection of horizon believe shattering fact, that were a direct attack on the basic that were a direct attack on the basic system that was held by the post office. Bang, bang, bang, attacking post office. Bang, bang, bang, attacking the Horizon System. At the end of attacking the Horizon System. At the end of 2013, you could have been in no doubt end of 2013, you could have been in no doubt ms end of 2013, you could have been in no doubt ms vennells, thats it needed no doubt ms vennells, thats it needed an inquiry, a deep investigation and review. Do you agree investigation and review. Do you agree ms investigation and review. Do you agree ms vennells . | investigation and review. Do you agree ms vennells . Investigation and review. Do you agree ms vennells . I absolutely wish we had done agree ms vennells . I absolutely wish we had done that. Agree ms vennells . I absolutely wish we had done that. I agree ms vennells . I absolutely wish we had done that. I still agree ms vennells . I absolutely wish we had done that. I still had we had done that. I still had confidence in the Horizon System as the inquiry has heard from the fact that it was working for the majority of people i have not understood, i did not have the detail that i had today and had i had that my view would have been very, very different. Would have been very, very different would have been very, very different. ,. ,. ,. , different. You have said today that our s le different. You have said today that your style was different. You have said today that your style was to. Different. You have said today that your style was to, it different. You have said today that your style was to, it was different. You have said today that your style was to, it was not different. You have said today that your style was to, it was not your i your style was to, it was not your style your style was to, it was not your style to your style was to, it was not your style to keep in with people in terms style to keep in with people in terms of style to keep in with people in terms of asking questions. You said to mr terms of asking questions. You said to mr henry terms of asking questions. You said to mr henry i fired questions in a very straightforward way. What we dont very straightforward way. What we dont see, very straightforward way. What we dont see, miss vennells, is evidence dont see, miss vennells, is evidence that you fired questions in any way evidence that you fired questions in any way at evidence that you fired questions in any way at all of those people you would any way at all of those people you would have expect to be asking questions. We dont see e mail saying questions. We dont see e mail saying i questions. We dont see e mail saying i demand answers, i need them now, saying i demand answers, i need them now. What saying i demand answers, i need them now. What on saying i demand answers, i need them now, what on earth has been going on with the now, what on earth has been going on with the system . We dont see those emails. With the system . We dont see those emails. Ms with the system . We dont see those e mails, ms vennells, why not . I had emails, ms vennells, why not . I had is conversations emails, ms vennells, why not . I had is conversations with emails, ms vennells, why not . I had is conversations with the e mails, ms vennells, why not . I icc is conversations with the Chief Executive of fujitsu, i spoke very quickly with the cio, she and her predecessors were involved whenever issues came up with the Horizon System, when the letters came in from mps and members of the public raising issues around the Horizon System, the experts were consulted and the answers were taken from them. Questions were asked all of them. Questions were asked all of the time. Whether i asked the right questions, whether i was given the right answers, i think is not a matterfor right answers, i think is not a matter for the right answers, i think is not a matterfor the inquiry to right answers, i think is not a matter for the inquiry to look at. Which is it, miss vennells . You either which is it, miss vennells . You either didnt want to look under the rocks either didnt want to look under the rocks because you didnt dare see what rocks because you didnt dare see what was rocks because you didnt dare see what was under there, or you didnt ask the what was under there, or you didnt ask the right, deep rooted questions. Which is it. Miss vennells . Ooofff with one or the other vennells . Ooofff with one or the other because it has to be one. | other because it has to be one. Believe other because it has to be one. I believe that i was asking the right questions. I wasn� t an it expert, i may not have asked the right questions, but i never once held back from asking if i was unsure about something. Perhaps if i didn� t have the Technical Expertise i wasn� t asking the correct questions, and i have said this a number of times, i trusted and i have said this a number of times, itrusted individuals and i have said this a number of times, i trusted individuals with whom i worked, i trusted that the audits that we have talked about seem to have confirmed that the system was working as it should, that there were risks around privileged access, that i accept, but at no point did i have any information that would have pointed me to something i knew nothing about. ~. Me to something i knew nothing about. ,. , about. Miss vennells, youre not stuid, about. Miss vennells, youre not stupid. You about. Miss vennells, youre not stupid. You study about. Miss vennells, youre not stupid, you study french, about. Miss vennells, youre not. Stupid, you study french, russian, business stupid, you study french, russian, business has a degree then worked for well known business has a degree then worked for well known companies in the uk, whitbread. For well known companies in the uk, whitbread, argos, others. He rose through whitbread, argos, others. He rose through the ranks at the post office to become through the ranks at the post office to become its ceo. You were pushing forward to become its ceo. You were pushing forward under Network Transformation, you have been quoted as saying transformation, you have been quoted as saying that you see a future of the post as saying that you see a future of the post Office Opening up more branches, the post Office Opening up more branches, 30,000 branches in the future branches, 30,000 branches in the future that branches, 30,000 branches in the future. That was due, miss finals, at the future. That was due, miss finals, at the time, future. That was due, miss finals, at the time, each vision you are expressing at the time, each vision you are expressing to anyone who asked about the future expressing to anyone who asked about the future expressing to anyone who asked about the future. Miss vennells. These were the future. Miss vennells. These were all the future. Miss vennells. These were all adding the future. Miss vennells. These were alladding up the future. Miss vennells. These were all adding up to a difficult problem were all adding up to a difficult problem to chew for all the way through problem to chew for all the way through 2013. You feel, didnt you . You failed through 2013. You feel, didnt you . You failed to get into this on your account you failed to get into this on your account. You fail to ask the right questions. Account. You fail to ask the right questions, you couldnt be bothered, could questions, you couldnt be bothered, could you. Questions, you couldnt be bothered, could you, miss vennells . The risk was two could you, miss vennells . The risk was two greats. Looking under that rock you was two greats. Looking under that rock you are was two greats. Looking under that rock you are going to find a problem. Rock you are going to find a problem, it is going to devastate the post problem, it is going to devastate the post office, ruin it, and you couldnt the post office, ruin it, and you couldnt let the post office, ruin it, and you couldnt let that happen, could you, miss vennells . | couldnt let that happen, could you, miss vennells . Miss vennells . I loved the post office. I worked as hard as i possibly could to deliver the best post office for the uk. It would have been wonderful to have 30,000 post office branches. That would have been the best outcome effort ever, to have more post offices and more communities. What i failed to do and i have made this clear previously, as i didn� t recognise, and it has been discussed across the inquiry, the imbalance of power between the institution and the individual and i let these people down. I am very aware of that and we should have had better governance in place. We should have had better data reporting in place so we could have seen what was happening to the postmasters and the system. That was not the case. At no time did i put the post office over the cases that were brought forward. I worked as hard as i couldn� t do the best of my ability and i am very sorry that i was not able to find out what the inquiry has found out. I don� t know today how much wasn� t told to me. I do know information that i didn� t get and i don� t know in some cases why it didn� t reach me, but my only motivation was for the best for the post office and for the best for the post office and for the hundreds of postmasters that i met and i regret deeply that i let these people down. Miss vennells, that is absolute these people down. Miss vennells, that is absolute rubbish, these people down. Miss vennells, that is absolute rubbish, isnt these people down. Miss vennells, that is absolute rubbish, isnt it . I that is absolute rubbish, isnt it . With that is absolute rubbish, isnt it . With you that is absolute rubbish, isnt it . With you and your sidekick who fought with you and your sidekick who fought tooth and nail in the high court fought tooth and nail in the high court along council on behalf of the post Office Post Office to cross examine the litigants on the basis cross examine the litigants on the basis that cross examine the litigants on the basis that the losses were their fault basis that the losses were their fault. That is what happened under your leadership. That is what was allowed your leadership. That is what was allowed to your leadership. That is what was allowed to happen under your leadership. There was not a thought of their leadership. There was not a thought of their might be a problem with the post office of their might be a problem with the post office. He of their might be a problem with the ost office. ,. ,. ,. , post office. He fought tooth and nail, didnt post office. He fought tooth and nail, didnt you . Post office. He fought tooth and nail, didnt you . My post office. He fought tooth and nail, didnt you . My impression| post office. He fought tooth and nail, didnt you . My impression was nail, didn� t you . My impression was that every case and that scheme is looked at and the inquiry heard and i was disappointed when andrea founder bogarde didn� t talk more about that because one of the consistent pieces of feedback we had on the investigations in these cases and the inquiry heard it as well, that they were looked at in every detail, the system was considered i don� t know why it was the case that theissues don� t know why it was the case that the issues they were not find, but that was the ambition at the time. Let� s see what you said to mr blair lets see what you said to mr blair with your lets see what you said to mr blair with your evidence on the first day. We feel with your evidence on the first day. We feel there was a lack of governments and you were too trusting. Governments and you were too trusting. Your statement says that you were trusting. Your statement says that you were first aware of the bug in 2013. You were first aware of the bug in 2013, but you were first aware of the bug in 2013, but also you expelling your sister 2013, but also you expelling your sister 2013, but also you expelling your sister statements, you refer to speak sister statements, you refer to speak speaking note, paragraphs 363 and 364, speak speaking note, paragraphs 363 and 364, that she knew that those dos and 364, that she knew that those dogs were and 364, that she knew that those dogs were from the period 2010 to 2012 dogs were from the period 2010 to 2012 do dogs were from the period 2010 to 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, dogs were from the period 2010 to 2012. Do you accept that . 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, i think so 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, i think so. You 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, i think so. You are 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, i think so. You are told 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, i think so. You are told in 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, i think so. You are told in a 2012. Do you accept that . Yes, i i think so. You are told in a speaking note that these think so. You are told in a speaking note that these are think so. You are told in a speaking note that these are old think so. You are told in a speaking note that these are old bugs, think so. You are told in a speaking note that these are old bugs, old i note that these are old bugs, old bugs note that these are old bugs, old bugs in note that these are old bugs, old bugs in terms of going back to 2013. And you bugs in terms of going back to 2013. And you stay in your statement you had never and you stay in your statement you had never been told about bugs, errors had never been told about bugs, errors or had never been told about bugs, errors or defects in the system, and you say errors or defects in the system, and you say in errors or defects in the system, and you say in your evidence that what you say in your evidence that what you have you say in your evidence that what you have been told about the Horizon Systems you have been told about the Horizon Systems robustness was wrong. That is what systems robustness was wrong. That is what youre saying. Do you agree . Yes. Is what youre saying. Do you agree . Yes help is what youre saying. Do you agree . Yes help us is what youre saying. Do you agree . Yes. Help us understand from your work yes. Help us understand from your work within yes. Help us understand from your work within the post office, why was it that work within the post office, why was it that the work within the post office, why was it that the knowledge of the mismatch bug and the way it was dealt mismatch bug and the way it was dealt with mismatch bug and the way it was dealt with was known to Key Post Office dealt with was known to Key Post Office figures, yet that information had not office figures, yet that information had not been supplied to either angela had not been supplied to either angela van den bogerd or yourself until 2013 . Angela van den bogerd or yourself until2013 . How angela van den bogerd or yourself until 2013 . How did angela van den bogerd or yourself until2013 . How did it angela van den bogerd or yourself until 2013 . How did it happen, angela van den bogerd or yourself until2013 . How did it happen, miss vennells . Until2013 . How did it happen, miss vennells . | until2013 . How did it happen, miss vennells . ,. ,. , vennells . I understand that this there were vennells . I understand that this there were managers vennells . I understand that this there were managers involved i vennells . I understand that this| there were managers involved in vennells . I understand that this i there were managers involved in a meeting looking at the bug, they took a decision on the best approach took a decision on the best approach to it and it stayed within. That is not the to it and it stayed within. That is not the question, to it and it stayed within. That is not the question, is to it and it stayed within. That is not the question, is it . To it and it stayed within. That is not the question, is it . How come you were is not the question, is it . How come you were not is not the question, is it . How come you were not told about this on to 2013. You were not told about this on to 2013, instead of being told no problem 2013, instead of being told no problem with the system, miss vennells, problem with the system, miss vennells, its robust, no bugs in the system vennells, its robust, no bugs in the system. How come you want total 2013 that the system. How come you want total 2013 that that was a lie, there were bus 2013 that that was a lie, there were bugs in 2013 that that was a lie, there were bugs in the 2013 that that was a lie, there were bugs in the system . You did ask that question. Bugs in the system . You did ask that question, didnt you . Are you saying that you question, didnt you . Are you saying that you didnt ask that question i simply intervened to say you that question i simply intervened to say you are that question i simply intervened to say you are asked her a question, but after say you are asked her a question, but after the second question before she had but after the second question before she had answered the first question. I will recap she had answered the first question. I will recap. You were told there were i will recap. You were told there were bugs i will recap. You were told there were bugs in the system in 2013, previous were bugs in the system in 2013, previous to were bugs in the system in 2013, previous to that you were not told that there previous to that you were not told that there were. Help us to understand. You were asking the question understand. You were asking the question before that . I understand. You were asking the question before that . Question before that . I cannot remember question before that . I cannot remember today question before that . I cannot remember today what question before that . I cannot| remember today what question question before that . I cannot i remember today what question i asked, but i� m sure you� re right i would have asked that question and i imagine the question that came back was this was about that happened in it was fixed. At the at the time the bug happened i don� t know where my responsibilities lay with the issues around the it were issued with the it director. What i did when i was told about the bug was to accepts too readily, probably, that it had been fixed and the right thing had been fixed and the right thing had been done. I� m been fixed and the right thing had been done. �. ,. ,. , ~ i. , been done. Im going to take you to our been done. Im going to take you to your statement. Been done. Im going to take you to your statement, these been done. Im going to take you to your statement, these are been done. Im going to take you to your statement, these are two your statement, these are two paragraphs, i have asked possible if they could paragraphs, i have asked possible if they could be lined up side by side on screen, they could be lined up side by side on screen, and these are examples. Im very on screen, and these are examples. Im very grateful. These two paragraphs, paragraphs one to nine and 388, paragraphs, paragraphs one to nine and 388, they say roughly the same thing. And 388, they say roughly the same thing, there are other paragraphs. I did not thing, there are other paragraphs. I did not know about any of these bugs because did not know about any of these bugs because nobody told me about them. As i mentioned, it was responsibility of mike young, who was operation director at this time. As network was operation director at this time. As Network Director and a member of the executive time it is difficult to see the executive time it is difficult to see howl the executive time it is difficult to see how i would have come to know about to see how i would have come to know about our to see how i would have come to know about our beds unless it was communicated to me by an it function communicated to me by an it function i communicated to me by an it function. I do not think i have returned function. I do not think i have returned my mind to whether there were any returned my mind to whether there were any bugs in horizon. My understanding until may 2013 with the new understanding until may 2013 with the new bugs have been found in horizon the new bugs have been found in horizon which could affect branch accounts horizon which could affect branch accounts i horizon which could affect branch accounts. I believe that because it is what accounts. I believe that because it is what i accounts. I believe that because it is what i have been told by a series of it managers over many years. By july 2013, of it managers over many years. By july 2013, you had learnt of two bugsi july 2013, you had learnt of two bugs, then you lot about a third bug. Bugs, then you lot about a third bug. The bugs, then you lot about a third bug, the falkirk bug, so what she had been bug, the falkirk bug, so what she had been told by these theories that it managers over the many years at the employments in the post office was not the employments in the post office was not true. Now, in the simplest possible was not true. Now, in the simplest possible terms, you must have decided possible terms, you must have decided well, i need to find out why have i decided well, i need to find out why have i not decided well, i need to find out why have i not been told about these bugs~ have i not been told about these bugs~ did have i not been told about these bugs. Did you do that, miss vennells . Bugs. Did you do that, miss vennells . Im not sure that i understand. Vennells . Im not sure that i understand. Sorry, vennells . Im not sure that i understand. Sorry, asked i vennells . Im not sure that i i understand. Sorry, asked the question again. Br; understand. Sorry, asked the question again. Understand. Sorry, asked the question again. By 2013 you have found out to question again. By 2013 you have found out to bugs, question again. By 2013 you have found out to bugs, then question again. By 2013 you have found out to bugs, then the question again. By 2013 you have | found out to bugs, then the third, the falkirk found out to bugs, then the third, the falkirk bug. In your statement youre the falkirk bug. In your statement youre saying that you have been told repeatedly by it Staff Members that there were no bugs in the system, that there were no bugs in the system, so my question is the simple one, system, so my question is the simple one. You system, so my question is the simple one, you must have asked why have i not been one, you must have asked why have i not been told about these bugs before not been told about these bugs before, what is going on . Did you . When before, what is going on . Did you . When i before, what is going on . Did you . When i learnt about them in 2013 my priority was to the post office to understand that new post offices had suffered any detriment as a result of those bugs. I worked personally on the bug to see that any relations to the first bugs are worked through and in terms of the payments and mismatch bug and later at the falkirk bug, the explanation is that i was given that the bugs had been raised, they have been dealt with and i accepted those explanations that were given. Did and i accepted those explanations that were given. That were given. Did you ask the question . That were given. Did you ask the guestion . I that were given. Did you ask the question . I cannot that were given. Did you ask the question . I cannot remember i that were given. Did you ask the question . I cannot remember if| that were given. Did you ask the | question . I cannot remember if i asked that question . I cannot remember if i asked that question question . I cannot remember if i asked that question or question . I cannot remember if i asked that question or not. Question . I cannot remember if i asked that question or not. The i question . I cannot remember if i i asked that question or not. The only wa to asked that question or not. The only way to understand asked that question or not. The only way to understand your asked that question or not. The only way to understand your evidence asked that question or not. The only way to understand your evidence as| way to understand your evidence as if youre way to understand your evidence as if youre saying you care about supposed if youre saying you care about supposed Sub Postmaster is, you say you supposed Sub Postmaster is, you say you care supposed Sub Postmaster is, you say you care deeply about the system, say you care deeply about the system, a say you care deeply about the system, a sensible, intelligent ceo would system, a sensible, intelligent ceo would say system, a sensible, intelligent ceo would say what has been going on . Why did would say what has been going on . Why did i would say what has been going on . Why did i not get told there were bugs why did i not get told there were bugs in why did i not get told there were bugs in the system and they were the mismatch bugs in the system and they were the mismatch bugs, calendar square, all of that . Mismatch bugs, calendar square, all of that . �. Mismatch bugs, calendar square, all of that . � ,. , , of that . And in terms of the bugs that arose of that . And in terms of the bugs that arose when of that . And in terms of the bugs that arose when i of that . And in terms of the bugs that arose when i was of that . And in terms of the bugs that arose when i was ceo, of that . And in terms of the bugs that arose when i was ceo, i of that . And in terms of the bugs that arose when i was ceo, i had | of that . And in terms of the bugs i that arose when i was ceo, i had the conversation where i said i want to take leadership on this and i want to demonstrate that we will handle these things properly. However, the two previous bugs have been handled, that was not something for me to deal with. That was not something for me to dealwith. I that was not something for me to deal with. I was reassured that they had been sorted out as they needed to be and i was now working on the one that was still extant, the local suspense bug, and that is what i was doing. One of them went back to 2006 and i accepted the explanation that that had applied to the legacy Horizon System, that it had been fixed, and is the trouble is i don� t know if i remember now from the documentation i have read in preparation for the inquiry or i remember it from them, but that hasn� t had impact on the cases. And the payments and mismatch bug i accepted that that the work had been done on that and i was concentrating on what needed to happen to the current one and as i have also said, that these bugs had no impact on the cases which we were concentrating on or about to move into the complaints and Mediation Scheme. That or about to move into the complaints and Mediation Scheme. Or about to move into the complaints and Mediation Scheme. That is what i remember doing. And Mediation Scheme. That is what i remember doing. He and Mediation Scheme. That is what i remember doing. He have and Mediation Scheme. That is what i remember doing. He have said remember doing. He have said repeatedly that you have been too trusting. Repeatedly that you have been too trusting, that you accept the people told you trusting, that you accept the people told you. One of the things that you say you told you. One of the things that you say you were told that there were no bus say you were told that there were no bugs in say you were told that there were no bugs in the say you were told that there were no bugs in the system, so lets turn to the other bugs in the system, so lets turn to the other side of this. Who do you play. The other side of this. Who do you play. Who the other side of this. Who do you play, who did you trust too much . Name play, who did you trust too much . Name them, please. I mentioned the names previously. Do it again. Tell us who you think you should not have trusted because they let you down. Give us the names, please. I will do that but i would also like to say that at the time i trusted the people who gave me the information, so on the it side lesley cyril and mike young, and there were two other it directors but at that time it was them, and on the legal side the gem councils, jane mcleod, and those people who i had worked with on of other important projects, they had never let me down and i am not sure at what stage you start to not trust individuals with whom you have previously and i think one of the big mistakes which are mentioned on day one here is that we did not have sufficient oversight, particularly around to very technical functions, because there is a risk if you rely on, as i did, and my board executive colleagues and good colleagues did, we relied on one or two key individuals and that puts a burden on those individuals and an organisation should not do that. We should have had better scrutiny around the board table in terms of it and legal and i thought that i had, particularly on the go, i thought i had to scrutiny from the external Legal Adviser to reducing and what i have heard through recent evidence to the inquiry may suggest that that wasn� t perhaps as good as it should have been. Let� s that that wasnt perhaps as good as it should have been. It should have been. Lets talk about bugs. It should have been. Lets talk about bugs, errors it should have been. Lets talk about bugs, errors and it should have been. Lets talk. About bugs, errors and defects. It should have been. Lets talk about bugs, errors and defects. Mike young about bugs, errors and defects. Mike young is about bugs, errors and defects. Mike young is someone who had told you there young is someone who had told you there was young is someone who had told you there was no difficulty with the system, there was no difficulty with the system, there are no bugs in the system system, there are no bugs in the system by system, there are no bugs in the system. By mid 2013 you need and not to be true system. By mid 2013 you need and not to be true he system. By mid 2013 you need and not to be true. He was someone that havent to be true. He was someone that havent told you the truth, do you agree . Havent told you the truth, do you agree . | havent told you the truth, do you airee . , �. , havent told you the truth, do you atree . , � i. ,. , agree . I dont know. In terms of the question agree . I dont know. In terms of the question put agree . I dont know. In terms of the question put in agree . I dont know. In terms of the question put in that agree . I dont know. In terms of the question put in that very agree . I dont know. In terms of the question put in that very blackj the question put in that very black way black and white way, yes. I don� t know what he did or didn� t know. fits dont know what he did or didnt know. � ,. , dont know what he did or didnt know. ~ ,. ,. , dont know what he did or didnt know. �. ,. , dont know what he did or didnt know. ~ ,. ,. , . , know. As of the summer of 2013, was mr youni know. As of the summer of 2013, was mr young is know. As of the summer of 2013, was mr young is still know. As of the summer of 2013, was mr young is still working know. As of the summer of 2013, was mr young is still working at know. As of the summer of 2013, was mr young is still working at the mr young is still working at the post mr young is still working at the post office . Mr young is still working at the post office . Mr young is still working at the ost office . , ~ ,. , ~ post office . Thank you, i think he had left by post office . Thank you, i think he had left by then. Post office . Thank you, i think he had left by then. Have post office . Thank you, i think he had left by then. Have you post office . Thank you, i think he had left by then. Have you had i post office . Thank you, i think he | had left by then. Have you had any contact with had left by then. Have you had any contact with him had left by then. Have you had any contact with him since, had left by then. Have you had any contact with him since, at had left by then. Have you had any contact with him since, at all . Contact with him since, at all . Now contact with him since, at all . Now in contact with him since, at all . Now interms contact with him since, at all . No. In terms of contact with him since, at all . No. In terms of complete i no. In terms of complete transparency, i think once. He was an officer in the power regiment and i contacted him one on the 11th Of November. I contacted him one on the 11th Of November i contacted him one on the 11th Of November. ,. ,. ,. November. Have you had any recent contact with november. Have you had any recent contact with him . November. Have you had any recent contact with him . No, november. Have you had any recent contact with him . No, i november. Have you had any recent contact with him . No, i dont november. Have you had any recent contact with him . No, i dont know| contact with him . No, i dont know what he is contact with him . No, i dont know what he is doing contact with him . No, i dont know what he is doing now. Contact with him . No, i dont know what he is doing now. The contact with him . No, i dont know what he is doing now. The inquiry i contact with him . No, i dont know| what he is doing now. The inquiry to date has been what he is doing now. The inquiry to date has been unable what he is doing now. The inquiry to date has been unable to what he is doing now. The inquiry to date has been unable to trace what he is doing now. The inquiry to date has been unable to trace mr. Date has been unable to trace mr young date has been unable to trace mr young so date has been unable to trace mr young so i date has been unable to trace mr young so i was date has been unable to trace mr young so i was saying date has been unable to trace mr young so i was saying if date has been unable to trace mr young so i was saying if miss young so i was saying if miss vennells young so i was saying if miss vennells could young so i was saying if miss vennells could help young so i was saying if miss vennells could help us. Young so i was saying if miss vennells could help us. I young so i was saying if miss vennells could help us. Vennells could help us. I had wondered vennells could help us. I had wondered why vennells could help us. I had wondered why he vennells could help us. I had wondered why he hadnt vennells could help us. I had| wondered why he hadnt been vennells could help us. wondered why he hadnt been here. Wondered why he hadn� t been here. Let� s turn to another matter. The lets turn to another matter. The contract lets turn to another matter. The contract with supposed masters. Now you know contract with supposed masters. Now you know because you have read the judgments you know because you have read the judgments from mrjustice fraser in the high judgments from mrjustice fraser in the high court, you know that the contract the high court, you know that the contract was discussed in detail in the judgments that he gave, and you know that the judgments that he gave, and you know that the original contract stated know that the original contract stated that the Sub Postmaster is responsible for all losses caused through responsible for all losses caused through his or her own negligence, carelessness or error, that is what it said carelessness or error, that is what it said originally, yes . Yes. You are also it said originally, yes . Yes. You are also aware no doubt from your own work are also aware no doubt from your own work within the post office and the evidence that we have heard, from the evidence that we have heard, from miss the evidence that we have heard, from miss harding, an accountant was called from miss harding, an accountant was called in from miss harding, an accountant was called in relation to the Impact Programme and a post Office Employee that the programme and a post Office Employee that the interpretation that had been that the interpretation that had been placed upon the contractual terms. Been placed upon the contractual terms, was that the supposed matters were liable terms, was that the supposed matters were liable contractually for any shortfalls which had to be made good shortfalls which had to be made good you shortfalls which had to be made good. You were aware of that . I good. You were aware of that . Dont good. You were aware of that . I dont remember that but i am happy don� t remember that but i am happy to accept it. Mr dont remember that but i am happy to accept it to accept it. Mr cameron said it was traditionally to accept it. Mr cameron said it was traditionally the to accept it. Mr cameron said it was traditionally the post to accept it. Mr cameron said it was traditionally the post office to accept it. Mr cameron said it was traditionally the post office did traditionally the post office did not have traditionally the post office did not have visibility on what was on within not have visibility on what was on within a not have visibility on what was on within a post office branch, ok . So we get within a post office branch, ok . So we get the within a post office branch, ok . So we get the Horizon System that comes in and we get the Horizon System that comes in and we we get the Horizon System that comes in and we know that shortfalls are being in and we know that shortfalls are being identified and that supposed masters being identified and that supposed masters and mistresses are being told to masters and mistresses are being told to pay masters and mistresses are being told to pay up thousands and tens of thousands told to pay up thousands and tens of thousands of pounds from their own money, thousands of pounds from their own money, you thousands of pounds from their own money, you are aware of all of that . I am money, you are aware of all of that . I am. ~ ,. ,. , i am. When, before the High Court Judgments. I am. When, before the High Court Judgments. Did i am. When, before the High Court Judgments, did you i am. When, before the High Court Judgments, did you become i am. When, before the High Court Judgments, did you become awarej i am. When, before the High Court Judgments, did you become aware that the post judgments, did you become aware that the post office treated supposed masters the post office treated supposed masters and mistresses as liable for all and masters and mistresses as liable for all and any masters and mistresses as liable for all and any shortfalls . Is masters and mistresses as liable for all and any shortfalls . All and any shortfalls . Is that the chance to all and any shortfalls . Is that the change to the all and any shortfalls . Is that the change to the network all and any shortfalls . Is that the change to the Network Transformation contract . I change to the Network Transformation contract . ,. ,. ,. , contract . I will move on to that in the moments contract . I will move on to that in the moments and contract . I will move on to that in the moments and what contract . I will move on to that in the moments and what happened| contract . I will move on to that in i the moments and what happened to contract . I will move on to that in the moments and what happened to the contract the moments and what happened to the contract. My question is, before the hih contract. My question is, before the high court contract. My question is, before the high courtjudgments contract. My question is, before the High Court Judgments went contract. My question is, before the high courtjudgments went did you become high courtjudgments went did you become aware that the situation within become aware that the situation within the post office was that supposed masters were being told to pay up supposed masters were being told to pay up for supposed masters were being told to pay up for shortfalls . | supposed masters were being told to pay up for shortfalls . Pay up for shortfalls . I believe that was the pay up for shortfalls . I believe that was the way pay up for shortfalls . I believe that was the way the pay up for shortfalls . I believe that was the way the contract. Pay up for shortfalls . I believe i that was the way the contract was pay up for shortfalls . I believe that was the way the contract was in place from when ijoined as Network Director. Place from when i oined as Network Director. ,. , director. Ok, all right. You accepted. Director. Ok, all right. You accepted, is director. Ok, all right. You accepted, is this director. Ok, all right. You accepted, is this correct, i director. Ok, all right. You i accepted, is this correct, that there accepted, is this correct, that there was accepted, is this correct, that there was a effectively automatic liability there was a effectively automatic liability for a Sub Postmaster for an apparent shortfall identified on the Horizon System of, for example, £20,000 . The Horizon System of, for example, £20,000 . That is what you believe it was the £20,000 . That is what you believe it was the situation and you thought it was the situation and you thought it was fair, was the situation and you thought it was fair, is was the situation and you thought it was fair, is that right miss vennells . | was fair, is that right miss vennells . Was fair, is that right miss vennells . ,. ,. , �. , vennells . I understood. Im not entirely sure vennells . I understood. Im not entirely sure what vennells . I understood. Im not entirely sure what youre vennells . I understood. Im not entirely sure what youre asking. L vennells . I understood. Im notj entirely sure what youre asking. I entirely sure what you� re asking. I understood the contract that was in place and i relied on the expertise of those dealing with it, dealing with investigations, to come to whatever the correct interpretation was. I never personally had any close involvement with the contract or how that was interpreted, or how postmasters were held accountable for it . ,. ,. , for it . You chanted this all the time. For it . You chanted this all the time you for it . You chanted this all the time. You keep for it . You chanted this all the time. You keep any for it . You chanted this all the time. You keep any distance i for it . You chanted this all the time. You keep any distance between any knowledge that youve got and the application of it. You say this entire the application of it. You say this entire group of people keep an eye on this, entire group of people keep an eye on this, that is there a tank, it is not your on this, that is there a tank, it is not your fault for bringing it is their not your fault for bringing it is their fault not your fault for bringing it is their fault for not bringing stuff to you their fault for not bringing stuff to you. My question is a simple one. You were to you. My question is a simple one. You were aware that supposed masters had to you were aware that supposed masters had to pay you were aware that supposed masters had to pay up when there was an alleged had to pay up when there was an alleged shortfall on the Horizon System, alleged shortfall on the Horizon System, as an example for £20,000, sums like system, as an example for £20,000, sums like that . I system, as an example for £20,000, sums like that . Sums like that . I was the Chief Executive sums like that . I was the Chief Executive and sums like that . I was the Chief Executive and i sums like that . I was the Chief Executive and i was sums like that . I was the Chief Executive and i was trying sums like that . I was the Chief Executive and i was trying to i sums like that . I was the chief i executive and i was trying to run sums like that . I was the Chief Executive and i was trying to run an organisation of 60,000. I will come to your question. You made a statement about why i did not know things. At the level i was working at i did not have sight of the sort of decisions and nor could it have ever happens. Iwas of decisions and nor could it have ever happens. I was running an organisation of 60,000 people. You have to have various layers of management to do that. I regret deeply that some of that information did not reach me. I accept what you say that the post office interpreted the contract and help people accountable as you just suggested. When did it come to your attention the people when did it come to your attention the people were being asked to pay up for the people were being asked to pay up for very the people were being asked to pay up for very large sums of money that were identified as so called shortfalls . Were identified as socalled shortfalls . Were identified as socalled shortfalls . ~ ~ , iimagine one i imagine one the team working on the complaints and Mediation Scheme were looking at the detail of some of those cases. And i knew about seema misra because my case, which was a huge amount of money. I can� t remember other examples but i� m sure there were some. So remember other examples but im sure there were some there were some. So we have identified there were some. So we have identified the there were some. So we have identified the disc there were some. So we have identified the disc into there were some. So we have identified the disc into your i identified the disc into your attention in the way that i described in and around 2013, is that fair . Described in and around 2013, is that fair . Yes, thats right. What inquiry that fair . Yes, thats right. What inquiry did that fair . Yes, thats right. What inquiry did you make having disney brought inquiry did you make having disney brought to inquiry did you make having disney brought to your attention that the horizon brought to your attention that the Horizon System claimed all on supposed matters for a long large sums supposed matters for a long large sums of supposed matters for a long large sums of money, what should you do about sums of money, what should you do about it. Sums of money, what should you do about it, what inquiries did you make . About it, what inquiries did you make . | about it, what inquiries did you make . About it, what inquiries did you make . ,. ,. ,. Make . I set up the Mediation Scheme. A reasonable. Make . I set up the Mediation Scheme. A reasonable, caring make . I set up the Mediation Scheme. A reasonable, caring ceo make . I set up the Mediation Scheme. A reasonable, caring ceo would make . I set up the Mediation Scheme. A reasonable, caring ceo would have i a reasonable, caring ceo would have said i a reasonable, caring ceo would have said i want a reasonable, caring ceo would have said i want answers, to find out what said i want answers, to find out what is said i want answers, to find out what is going on, what is going on with these what is going on, what is going on with these supposed masters, the lifeblood with these supposed masters, the lifeblood of the system, and i want to find lifeblood of the system, and i want to find the lifeblood of the system, and i want to find the answer is no, not set up a distant to find the answer is no, not set up a distant review. You didnt do that, a distant review. You didnt do that, did a distant review. You didnt do that, did you . A distant review. You didnt do that, did you . You will find cases where i asked that, did you . You will find cases where i asked all that, did you . You will find cases where i asked all sorts that, did you . You will find cases where i asked all sorts of that, did you . You will find cases i where i asked all sorts of questions but where we were dealing with historic cases, they needed to go through a proper review process. You can just as the Chief Executive asked somebody for their opinion on something, you have to go into it in a huge amount of detail, which is what i understood it was happening. I regret that we did not deal with those cases as we should have done. We mentioned the Network Transformation programme and we are lloiii Transformation Programme and we are going to Transformation Programme and we are going tojust have a brief look at the 2013 going tojust have a brief look at the 2013 version of the contract, which the 2013 version of the contract, which is the 2013 version of the contract, which is at the 2013 version of the contract, which is at pol 0003872. To decode pleas which is at pol 0003872. To decode pleas to which is at pol 0003872. To decode pleas to page 12. Which is at pol 0003872. To decode pleas to page 12 pleas to page 12. What were the last three numbers pleas to page 12. What were the last three numbers again . Pleas to page 12. What were the last three numbers again . 3872. Pol 00003872. Paragraph 4. 1 so, we have discussed what the original contract have discussed what the original contract said, the original contract said that contract said, the original contract said that the Sub Postmaster is responsible for all losses caused to his own responsible for all losses caused to his own negligence, carelessness or error~ his own negligence, carelessness or error~ so his own negligence, carelessness or error. So Network Transformation programme, coming in in relation to the new programme, coming in in relation to the new contract being put in place, we think the new contract being put in place, we think a the new contract being put in place, we think a new contract by 2013 and this contractual term we are about to look this contractual term we are about to look at this contractual term we are about to look at is this contractual term we are about to look at is repeated in 2014. So it says to look at is repeated in 2014. So it says this 2013 is the version of the Network Transformation contract. This is repeated transformation contract. This is repeated in the 2014 version of it. 2013. Repeated in the 2014 version of it. 2013, 2014. Repeated in the 2014 version of it. 2013, 2014, we now have this contractual ten. 2013, 2014, we now have this contractualten. Paragraph 2013, 2014, we now have this contractual ten. Paragraph 4. 1, the operator contractual ten. Paragraph 4. 1, the operator shall be fully liable for any loss operator shall be fully liable for any loss of or damage to any post office any loss of or damage to any post office cash any loss of or damage to any post office cash and stock, however this occurs office cash and stock, however this occurs and office cash and stock, however this occurs and whether this recurs of any negligence personal or otherwise, any breach of the agreement by the operator except for losses agreement by the operator except for losses arising from a criminal activity losses arising from a criminal activity. Or by taking reasonable care activity. Or by taking reasonable care so. Activity. Or by taking reasonable care. So, chopping out the legalese, basically care. So, chopping out the legalese, basically this time it says, you pay up. Basically this time it says, you pay up fully basically this time it says, you pay up. Fully liable for any loss or damage. Up. Fully liable for any loss or damage, no caveat at all. Nothing being damage, no caveat at all. Nothing being said damage, no caveat at all. Nothing being said this time about losses being being said this time about losses being only responsible, sorry being responsible for all losses being caused responsible for all losses being caused by his own negligence. Do you accept caused by his own negligence. Do you accept that . Caused by his own negligence. Do you acce t that . Caused by his own negligence. Do you accept that . Yes. By 2013, what you have known accept that . Is; by 2013, what you have known about we have gone through have known about we have gone through. The collection of problems in the through. The collection of problems in the Horizon System, which tell you that in the Horizon System, which tell you that there are bugs in the system you that there are bugs in the system. They tell you there is a problem system. They tell you there is a problem with the expert that was called problem with the expert that was called in problem with the expert that was called in with cases with the system called in with cases with the system. What the post office does, in the system. What the post office does, in the teeth of all that evidence and issues, it tightens the contractual screw, doesnt it . That is what contractual screw, doesnt it . That is what the contractual screw, doesnt it . That is what the post office was about. Even is what the post office was about. Even in is what the post office was about. Even in the is what the post office was about. Even in the face of what must have been even in the face of what must have been doubts about the system, the post office decides, lets make damn sure that post office decides, lets make damn sure that the post office Sub Post Office sure that the post office Sub Post Office masters pay up. You knew about Office Masters pay up. You knew about that, didnt you . | Office Masters pay up. You knew about that, didnt you . Office masters pay up. You knew about that, didnt you . I was aware that the network about that, didnt you . I was aware that the Network Transformation, i that the Network Transformation, when we went into next work transformation, the contract that had been in place for many years had had been in place for many years had had many iterations to it and the organisation took the opportunity, this was led by the then Network Director and the legal team, and they took the opportunity to simplify the contract and put something in place that would be more manageable the postmasters. When the Network Transformation, sorry, management in terms of what they had previously was a contract with many amendments added to it. This was an opportunity to reinstate the contract. The contract was signed by, ithink, 4000 new postmasters because of the issues that had been raised by second site, we made sure they had copies of the contract and that they had legal advisors to assist them as they went through it. As far as i am aware, we had no feedback whatsoever about, to be fair the new people coming in would have known this was a change, but there were existing Sub Postmasters who signed for the new contract. I understand the point you are making about tightening things up, i didn� t know that at the time. But it was accepted by the new and the existing Sub Postmasters who had changed to this contract with legal advice. Had changed to this contract with legaladvice. I had changed to this contract with legal advice. I completely understand the point you are making. This was under your leadership, you were this was under your leadership, you were supposed to be setting a time, a town were supposed to be setting a time, a town that were supposed to be setting a time, a town that went through this organisation, a tone of caring you explained organisation, a tone of caring you explained. Underyour leadership and explained. Under your leadership and your town explained. Underyour leadership and your town they can tightens the contraction of screw, correct . This clause was contraction of screw, correct . Ti 3 clause was changed, i was not involved in that conversation at all. It was never presented to me in the way that you have. I accept that with the issues that their work with the Horizon System and things we have since understood, that this absolutely is where things went wrong for postmasters. It was a more difficult contract than had been there previously. As you said, i believe the original one was more along the lines of what this amendment says. Along the lines of what this amendment sa s. �. , amendment says. Another document, if u 40207. I amendment says. Another document, if d 40207 i want amendment says. Another document, if u 40207. I want to amendment says. Another document, if u 40207. I want to take amendment says. Another document, if u 40207. I want to take a amendment says. Another document, if u 40207. I want to take a minute amendment says. Another document, if u 40207. I want to take a minute of u 40207. I want to take a minute of our u 40207. I want to take a minute of your time. U 40207. I want to take a minute of your time. You u 40207. I want to take a minute of your time, you said u 40207. I want to take a minute of your time, you said that u 40207. I want to take a minute of your time, you said that this your time, you said that this contract was the contract which you gave to the post office as Sub Postmasters would conclude. But you also said that existing postmasters, so already re co ntra ctually postmasters, so already re contractually bound, signed this contract. The question i want to ask is, was that optional . Where they, in effect, cajoling to signed it, what happened . The existing postmasters. What happened . The existing ostmasters. ,. , postmasters. Yes, i understand. It was optional postmasters. Yes, i understand. It was optional and postmasters. Yes, i understand. It was optional and those. Postmasters. Yes, i understand. It was optional and those. Im postmasters. Yes, i understand. It. Was optional and those. Im sorry . Was optional and those. I� m sorry . People should not shout out from the Public People should not shout out from the Public Gallery otherwise they will be removed. The witness should give her evidence without interruption. Thank her evidence without interruption. Thank you. Her evidence without interruption. Thank you, this her evidence without interruption. Thank ou,. , thank you, this was quite a complex Network Transformation. Thank you, this was quite a complex Network Transformation. There thank you, this was quite a complex Network Transformation. There were j thank you, this was quite a complex i Network Transformation. There were a number of different options for Sub Postmasters. Some chose to stay on the existing contract, some in a sense had no option other two stay on the existing contract. Some chose to leave the organisation and they took with them compensation which was funded by, had been negotiated, and was funded by this investment subsidy. Others chose to take an investment which the post office made with them, for them and with them, to convert their existing post offices to what was called a mains or local post office. That was when they change to the mains contract. I don� t know when the number of post offices on the mains contract changed. I offices on the mains contract chan. Ed. Offices on the mains contract chanced. , offices on the mains contract changed offices on the mains contract chanced. ,. ,. ,. , changed. I ust wanted to get a flavour changed. I ust wanted to get a flavour of changed. I just wanted to get a flavour of what changed. I just wanted to get a flavour of what occurred. Changed. I just wanted to get a flavour of what occurred. You i flavour of what occurred. You can add some minutes to your time. Thank ou, iwill add some minutes to your time. Thank you. I will try add some minutes to your time. Thank you. I will try to add some minutes to your time. Thank you, i will try to use add some minutes to your time. Thank you, i will try to use them add some minutes to your time. Thank you, i will try to use them wisely. You, i will try to use them wisely. Thank you, i will try to use them wisely. Thank you you, i will try to use them wisely. Thank you thank you. This document is an application thank you. This document is an application support thank you. This document is an application support service. Thank you. This document is an i application support service. That rather application support service. That rather entertaining title is a document that is dated the 24th Of August document that is dated the 24th Of August 2006 and this predates your employment. We go to the bottom of the first employment. We go to the bottom of the first plate please. You will see first the first plate please. You will see first page, please. The first plate please. You will see first page, please. First page, please. What is this document . First page, please. What is this document . Could first page, please. What is this document . Could you first page, please. What is this document . Could you give first page, please. What is this document . Could you give me first page, please. What is thisj document . Could you give me the title again, please . This document is application title again, please . This document is application support title again, please . This document is application support service. Is application support service. Thank is application support service. Thank you. It is application support service. Thank you is application support service. Thank ou. ,. , thank you. It says fuitsu services at the to thank you. It says fuitsu services at the top corner. Thank you. It says Fujitsu Services at the top corner. We thank you. It says Fujitsu Services at the top corner. We will thank you. It says Fujitsu Services at the top corner. We will go thank you. It says Fujitsu Services at the top corner. We will go to i thank you. It says Fujitsu Servicesl at the top corner. We will go to the bottom at the top corner. We will go to the bottom of at the top corner. We will go to the bottom of the first page. You will see their bottom of the first page. You will see their approval authorities name, post office see their approval authorities name, post office head of systems operation and richard brand skill for tickets to services. It is a joint for tickets to services. It is a joint document forjujitsu fujitsu and post joint document forjujitsu fujitsu and post office. Im going to go to page and post office. Im going to go to page nine and post office. Im going to go to page nine and paragraph 7. 1 at the bottom page nine and paragraph 7. 1 at the bottom of page nine and paragraph 7. 1 at the bottom of the page. You have been asked bottom of the page. You have been asked a bottom of the page. You have been asked a number of questions by mr beer was asked a number of questions by mr beer was that dot mac the inquiries has been beer was that dot mac the inquiries has been able to ask the right questions and receive documents describing the issues within the system. Describing the issues within the system, ok . All you needed to do was ask, system, ok . All you needed to do was ask. What system, ok . All you needed to do was ask. What do system, ok . All you needed to do was ask, what do we do about these bugs . Look at ask, what do we do about these bugs . Look at the ask, what do we do about these bugs . Look at the bottom of the page. Is a reminder as look at the bottom of the page. Is. Reminder as always if you want to kick continue watching that evidence you can do so on the bbc iplayer and on bbc news website. There has been some tough questioning of her at that inquiry this morning. She was emotional at times giving her evidence. She talks about the work, she says i worked as hard as i could to do the best for the post office in the uk. Breaking down in tears because it was some pretty tough questioning about what she knew and whether the post office was responsible for covering up the evidence that it had. There were faults with that horizon it system. Once again, some very tough questions for Paula Vennells to answer and in some cases she didn� t have all the answers. Answer and in some cases she didnt have all the answers. Have all the answers. Absolutely, it is worth going have all the answers. Absolutely, it is worth going through have all the answers. Absolutely, it is worth going through some have all the answers. Absolutely, it is worth going through some of have all the answers. Absolutely, it i is worth going through some of those moments, as you said it was tough questioning, it was cutting at times. We are into their second lawyer for the victims. When times. We are into their second lawyerfor the victims. When it started, we had mr henry who is forensic but impassioned in his questioning asking if she was in denial. Accusing her of living in la la land. Not understanding how it could be possible that wasn� t aware of bugs in the Horizon System. That it allowed the postmasters to access the accounts without even knowing. How could they know that information without Paula Vennells knowing it. She insisted she didn� t and was also questioned about what she knew about garethjenkins, a key witness questioned about what she knew about Gareth Jenkins, a key witness for the post office. He gave a full statement in court and yet his evidence led to the convictions of Sub Postmasters, in 2010. It is worth listening to one of them, here it is. I worth listening to one of them, here it is. , � ~ worth listening to one of them, here it is. , � ~. ,. , it is. I dont think we have that imaie it is. I dont think we have that image or it is. I dont think we have that image or that it is. I dont think we have that image or that clips it is. I dont think we have that image or that clips to it is. I dont think we have that image or that clips to bring it is. I dont think we have that image or that clips to bring people now. Of course, today is a really important day because we know that In Westminster some final legislation is being pushed through before mps break for that general election. An important day for those x postmasters who finally will be exonerated. X postmasters who finally will be exonerated x postmasters who finally will be exonerated. ~ ,. , exonerated. Absolutely, the timing is cuite exonerated. Absolutely, the timing is quite something. Exonerated. Absolutely, the timing is quite something. You exonerated. Absolutely, the timing is quite something. You have exonerated. Absolutely, the timing is quite something. You have Paula Vennells speaking at this inquiry and this process is not over for the people who have had to live with the consequences. Hundreds will have their convictions quashed, those who were working in a post office that use their fujitsu high rise and it system between 1996 and 2018 and were accused and if evicted of false accounting and theft theft. It does not affect everyone, some who were already lost their appeals, there was also an emergency law on the Horizon System that only passed in Scottish Parliament last week. Also, we spoke to a lawyer at the inquiry, a lawyerfor the we spoke to a lawyer at the inquiry, a lawyer for the victims who told us that many of those who will be exonerated once this new law receives royal assent haven� t even been told. He is concerned that as we enter this pre election period, no action will be taken. He said it was like christmas arriving but not being given a date. Was like christmas arriving but not being given a date. Good to see you, thank ou. Being given a date. Good to see you, thank you stay being given a date. Good to see you, thank you. Stay with being given a date. Good to see you, thank you. Stay with us being given a date. Good to see you, thank you. Stay with us here being given a date. Good to see you, thank you. Stay with us here on being given a date. Good to see you, thank you. Stay with us here on bbc| thank you. Stay with us here on bbc news, just a reminder that today is the last day for mps to debate and passed bills into laws. Before parliament dissolves next week. It looks like the conservatives promises first made in 2019 to abolish force evictions is unlikely to happen now before the general election. Party leaders are already travelling to all corners of the uk to secure votes. Sir ed davey for the Liberal Democrats is in eastbourne. The Prime Minister used a telegraph column to accuse the Labour Leader of being scared of taking part in a debate. I have heard this morning that he said he wanted to debate the british people rather than me. I think what the british people want are answers. Answers to the questions about what he would actually do if he became Prime Minister and how much it is going to cost them in higher taxes. I think those are the answers he should be providing. For my part, i am very happy to debate keir starmer so that i can set out what i want to do for this country, taking bold action, working towards a clear plan and delivering a secure future for everyone. That is the choice in this election. It is either going to be keir starmer or me that is Prime Minister onjuly the 5th and he should want to debate me, i want to debate him. I hope that he takes up the offer. That was rishi sunak speaking in Northern Ireland this morning. Labour has indicated that rather than six. The bbc and itv. There will be debates, but i could debate the Prime Minister once or 100 times, i know what he is going to say, he is going to stand there and say everything is fine, The Cost Of Living crisis is over, the nhs is brilliant, nobody is struggling. We hear that every week at Prime Minister� s questions, we have that debate. I want to talk directly to voters about what labour is offering and why this is an election which is all about change. Keir starmer speaking in glasgow. Todayis keir starmer speaking in glasgow. Today is the last day for bills to pass before the dissolution of parliament. That conservative promise made in 2019 to abolish no faulty evictions now we understand will not happen, there is not enough time to get it through parliament before mps break for that general election
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