Terms of the reputational reputational impact . I think in i terms of the reputational impact, the feeling was with second sight at this point, they wont evidence and quite a lot of what they were claiming. Quite a lot of what they were ctaiming quite a lot of what they were claimina. ~. , claiming. Who was saying they werent evidencing claiming. Who was saying they werent evidencing what claiming. Who was saying they werent evidencing what they claiming. Who was saying they l werent evidencing what they were claiming . Werent evidencing what they were claimin . ,. , werent evidencing what they were claimin . , werent evidencing what they were claimin. . ,. , claiming . That was in terms of lookin claiming . That was in terms of looking at claiming . That was in terms of looking at what claiming . That was in terms of looking at what they claiming . That was in terms of looking at what they were claiming . That was in terms of. Looking at what they were saying. This is the interim report, prior to this there were 47 cases that were really feeding into this and thats through the spot reviews but by the time we got to the interim report, if i remember correctly, there were only four or spot reviews that second sight was speaking to and my memory of that is not one of those four cases had actually been concluded. So there wasnt an absolute outcome and i think that is what was driving. It was a collective view, im not saying anybody. It was a collective view that there is an issue been raised oran that there is an issue been raised or an allegation made, some investigative work was done but they had not concluded that yet. The interim reports had not concluded that yet. The interim reports at least highlighted problems with horizon, didnt it . Including problems with horizon, didnt it . Including the two anomalies as they were described . Including the two anomalies as they were described . Yes. In fact, a third as well. Were described . Yes. In fact, a third as well. Was were described . Jazz in fact, a third as well. Was there any consideration given within post office consideration given within post office that should be luke deep into her eyes office that should be luke deep into her eyes and to see if they were any other her eyes and to see if they were any other problems with it look deeper other problems with it look deeper into horizon. | other problems with it look deeper into horizon. Other problems with it look deeper into horizon. I dont think there was deeper into horizon. I dont think there was. Was deeper into horizon. I dont think there was. Was instead deeper into horizon. I dont think there was. Was instead the deeper into horizon. I dont think there was. Was instead the first | there was. Was instead the first riori to there was. Was instead the First Priority to be there was. Was instead the First Priority to be damage there was. Was instead the First Priority to be Damage Limitation i there was. Was instead the First Priority to be Damage Limitation and Reputational Management . | priority to be Damage Limitation and Reputational Management . Reputational management . I dont think it was Reputational Management . I dont think it was as Reputational Management . I dont think it was as stark Reputational Management . I dont think it was as stark as Reputational Management . I dont think it was as stark as that. Think it was as stark as that. Protect the brand at all costs . He. Protect the brand at all costs . No, that wasnt protect the brand at all costs . No, that wasnt my protect the brand at all costs . Iifr, that wasnt my sense at the time. My sense was this was the precursor to the scheme. This was almost, well, it was a year on from when a second sight had been engaged. We had had an awful lot of effort put into the investigations but very little output so this was about the fact that the rebuttal would be in as much as there were claims and allegations but they werent being substantiated with evidence because the investigations arent concluded. I think that was the approach here more thanjust an i think that was the approach here more than just an absolute brand limitation, that wasnt the driving force behind this from my recollection. Force behind this from my recollection. �. , recollection. Lets get rid of the independent recollection. Lets get rid of the independent investigators recollection. Lets get rid of the independent investigators and i recollection. Lets get rid of the i independent investigators and get one of independent investigators and get one of the big four involved. Paragraph 40. Why was that the plan . Ithink paragraph 40. Why was that the plan . I think it paragraph 40. Why was that the plan . I think it was paragraph 40. Why was that the plan . I think it was because, my early recollection of before we engage second sight, i remember being in some of the early Conversations about what we should do in terms of approach and at that point it was kind of one of the big four but that was dismissed in terms of preference going with second sight. Mira; was dismissed in terms of preference going with second sight. Going with second sight. Why was the preference going with second sight. Why was the preference of going with second sight. Why was the preference of the going with second sight. Why was the preference of the second going with second sight. Why was the preference of the second sight| the preference of the second sight before the preference of the second sight before they had done their work . Sorry. Before they had done their work . Sorry. Why before they had done their work . Sorry, why did we go with second sight . Sorry, why did we go with second siuht . �. , ,. , sight . Before they started their work, sight . Before they started their work. What sight . Before they started their work, what made sight . Before they started their work, what made you sight . Before they started their work, what made you go sight . Before they started their work, what made you go with l sight . Before they started their work, what made you go with them . Im work, what made you go with them . In not work, what made you go with them . Im not exactly sure. My take would be that that would have been less costly than getting one of the big four block in. But also i think about addressing the other issues being claimed, that would be outside horizons system itself because, as you have seen, the focus or scope expanded when the second sight got going and said we had to expand the scope which is what we went with. And why after the independent reviewers had produced their independent report was consideration Bein Independent report was consideration being given to replacing them . From m view, being given to replacing them . From my view. That being given to replacing them . From my view, that was being given to replacing them . From my view, that was simply being given to replacing them . If� t . T|i my view, that was simply around cost and lack of output. 50 my view, that was simply around cost and lack of output. And lack of output. So one of the bi four and lack of output. So one of the big four would and lack of output. So one of the big four would be and lack of output. So one of the big four would be cheaper and lack of output. So one of the big four would be cheaper than big four would be cheaper than messesm big four would be cheaper than messes. Godlike im not saying they messes. Godlike im not saying they would messes. Godlike im not saying they would be cheaper but conclusion more quickly than we were seeing. This was more quickly than we were seeing. This was one year on but we had very little output having spent quite a lot of money. Little output having spent quite a lot of money little output having spent quite a lot of mone. ~. ,. , lot of money. Was it that they were rovin to lot of money. Was it that they were proving to be lot of money. Was it that they were proving to be a lot of money. Was it that they were proving to be a little lot of money. Was it that they were proving to be a little too proving to be a little too independent for The Post Office . That certainly wasnt my take. Was it the take of that certainly wasnt my take. Was it the take of anyone else . I that certainly wasnt my take. Was it the take of anyone else . I dont| it the take of anyone else . I dont know. It the take of anyone else . I dont know that it the take of anyone else . I dont know. That wasnt it the take of anyone else . I dont know. That wasnt shared it the take of anyone else . I dont know. That wasnt shared with it the take of anyone else . I dont| know. That wasnt shared with me. Did anyone blame Susan Crichton for suggesting them . At did anyone blame Susan Crichton for suggesting them . Suggesting them . At the time, i didnt think suggesting them . At the time, i didnt think so. Suggesting them . At the time, i didnt think so. I suggesting them . At the time, i didnt think so. I have suggesting them . At the time, i didnt think so. I have obviously | didnt think so. I have obviously been listening to things this week. ,. , been listening to things this week. ,. , week. Susan, you got as these eole week. Susan, you got as these people in. Week. Susan, you got as these people in. They week. Susan, you got as these people in, they are week. Susan, you got as these people in, they are a week. Susan, you got as these people in, they are a bit week. Susan, you got as these people in, they are a bit too people in, they are a bit too independent from us, why dont we go for one independent from us, why dont we go for one of independent from us, why dont we go for one of the big four who we can manage for one of the big four who we can manage and control . That for one of the big four who we can manage and control . For one of the big four who we can manage and control . That is not a conversation manage and control . That is not a conversation i manage and control . That is not a conversation i was manage and control . That is not a conversation i was aware manage and control . That is not a conversation i was aware of. Manage and control . That is not a conversation i was aware of. I manage and control . That is not a conversation i was aware of. I do i conversation i was aware of. I do remember in the early Conversations susan saying i know these people and quite clearly saying at the time, im not making any recommendations. Im not making any recommendations. I have worked with ron, if you want, i have worked with ron, if you want, i can set up a meeting and you can take your own view. I do absolutely remember that conversation at the start. So what you have just said about there being them being too independent, that wasnt something i was party to. I was working quite closely with them at the time, particularly ron and yes, he was very challenging and so they should be. That is what i expected them to do. ~ ,. ,. Be. That is what i expected them to do. ~. ,. ,. , be. That is what i expected them to do. ,. ,. ,. ,. , do. Where you are aware of a suggestion do. Where you are aware of a suggestion that do. Where you are aware of a suggestion that susan do. Where you are aware of a. Suggestion that Susan Crichton do. Where you are aware of a suggestion that Susan Crichton had failed suggestion that Susan Crichton had failed to suggestion that Susan Crichton had failed to mark second sight properly . Failed to mark second sight roerl . ,. ,. , properly . Not before listening to her evidence properly . Not before listening to her evidence yesterday. Properly . Not before listening to her evidence yesterday. Were properly . Not before listening to | her evidence yesterday. Were you aware of chatter her evidence yesterday. Were you aware of chatter within her evidence yesterday. Were you aware of chatter within the aware of chatter within the business, rumblings, that Susan Crichtons business, rumblings, that Susan Crichtonsjob was on business, rumblings, that Susan Crichtons job was on the line because crichtons job was on the line because she had a hyphen introduced reviewers because she had a hyphen introduced reviewers who were a little too independent and b, when they were introduced independent and b, when they were introduced had failed to mark them, or control introduced had failed to mark them, or control them. That wasnt something i was aware of. Susan leavin something i was aware of. Susan leaving was something i was aware of. Susan leaving was quite something i was aware of. Susan leaving was quite a something i was aware of. Susan leaving was quite a shock something i was aware of. Susan leaving was quite a shock to something i was aware of. Susan leaving was quite a shock to me. J something i was aware of. Susan leaving was quite a shock to me. Why did ou leaving was quite a shock to me. Why did you think leaving was quite a shock to me. Why did you think she left . I leaving was quite a shock to me. Why did you think she left . I suspected i did you think she left . I suspected it was to do did you think she left . I suspected it was to do with did you think she left . I suspected it was to do with the did you think she left . I suspected it was to do with the fact did you think she left . I suspected it was to do with the fact that it was to do with the fact that second sight went delivering the output within that time period. 50 output within that time period. So it was about the quality of second sights it was about the quality of second sights work . It it was about the quality of second sights work . Sights work . It was about the timeliness sights work . It was about the timeliness and sights work . It was about the timeliness and i sights work . It was about the timeliness and i wouldnt sights work . It was about the timeliness and i wouldnt sayl sights work . It was about the i timeliness and i wouldnt say the quality, it was the quantity. We wont sing the outputs. So quality, it was the quantity. We wont sing the outputs. Wont sing the outputs. So she felt embarrassed wont sing the outputs. So she felt embarrassed she wont sing the outputs. So she felt embarrassed she had wont sing the outputs. So she felt embarrassed she had introduced second felt embarrassed she had introduced second sight and they went to producing enough work quickly enough . Producing enough work quickly enou~h . � ,. , enough . That wasnt the impression i not. Wh enough . That wasnt the impression i got why do enough . That wasnt the impression i got why do you enough . That wasnt the impression i got. Why do you think enough . That wasnt the impression i got. Why do you think she enough . That wasnt the impression i got. Why do you think she left . Got. Why do you think she left . Look, i listened got. Why do you think she left . Look, i listened to got. Why do you think she left . Look, i listened to her got. Why do you think she left . Look, i listened to her evidence this week, i wasnt aware of what the Conversations and what was going on in the background. I knew susan had introduced Second Sight To the business, she hadnt recommended them but she had introduced them and we were in that space of, that was a good thing. I had seen their pack and they came across as being very credible. I never personally thought she was ever embarrassed by anything they were doing but she was aware that we werent we wont get in the output we thought we were by that time. , time. Can we turn on in the document. Time. Can we turn on in the document, please, time. Can we turn on in the document, please, to time. Can we turn on in the | document, please, to annex time. Can we turn on in the document, please, to annex one . It provides document, please, to annex one . It provides an document, please, to annex one . It provides an overview if we move through provides an overview if we move through the document to page eight, please through the document to page eight, please if through the document to page eight, please. If we look at the bottom part of please. If we look at the bottom part of this page, under The Post Office part of this page, under The Post Office activity. It has provided continuous support to second sight with all continuous support to second sight with all ten spot reviews. It has come with all ten spot reviews. It has come a with all ten spot reviews. It has come a second Bullet Points from the bottom, come a second Bullet Points from the bottom, liaised closely with fujitsu so its bottom, liaised closely with fujitsu so its expertise on Horizon Supports every so its expertise on Horizon Supports every response. Lastly, collated and interrogated Transaction Records were interrogated Transaction Records were second sight has referenced particular were second sight has referenced particular identifiable transactions. Taking those points in tone and transactions. Taking those points in tone and bearing in mind you i think responsible tone and bearing in mind you i think responsible for managing provision of information to second sight, was it right of information to second sight, was it right that of information to second sight, was it right that post office had liaised it right that post office had liaised closely with fujitsu so that its expertise are supported every response its expertise are supported every response that was made as god that wasnt response that was made as god that wasnt me response that was made as god that wasnt me liaising with fujitsu. I didnt wasnt me liaising with fujitsu. I didnt ask wasnt me liaising with fujitsu. I didnt ask if you are liaising with fujitsu, didnt ask if you are liaising with fujitsu, i didnt ask if you are liaising with fujitsu, i asked do know whether the post Offi