saying — that is partly what i meant by saying that structures are important and it— saying that structures are important and it is_ saying that structures are important and it is important to get them right— and it is important to get them right but— and it is important to get them right but the structures by themselves will not be sufficient. there _ themselves will not be sufficient. there has— themselves will not be sufficient. there has to be an approach to the structures, — there has to be an approach to the structures, a — there has to be an approach to the structures, a commitment to them, there _ structures, a commitment to them, there has— structures, a commitment to them, there has to — structures, a commitment to them, there has to be a willingness to make _ there has to be a willingness to make the — there has to be a willingness to make the structures work. you can have _ make the structures work. you can have all_ make the structures work. you can have all the — make the structures work. you can have all the structures you like on a piece _ have all the structures you like on a piece of— have all the structures you like on a piece of paper but if the people involved — a piece of paper but if the people involved in— a piece of paper but if the people involved in them don't approach them involved in them don't approach them in that— involved in them don't approach them in that spirit _ involved in them don't approach them in that spirit they will not deliver what _ in that spirit they will not deliver what is _ in that spirit they will not deliver what is needed. did in that spirit they will not deliver what is needed.— what is needed. did you want to finish the sentence? _ what is needed. did you want to finish the sentence? sorry - what is needed. did you want to finish the sentence? sorry to i finish the sentence? sorry to interrupt _ finish the sentence? sorry to interrurrt do _ finish the sentence? sorry to interrupt. do you _ finish the sentence? sorry to interrupt. do you understand finish the sentence? sorry to - interrupt. do you understand the structure? — interrupt. do you understand the structure? i_ interrupt. do you understand the structure? i confess _ interrupt. do you understand the structure? i confess i _ interrupt. do you understand the structure? i confess i find - interrupt. do you understand the structure? i confess i find it- structure? i confess i find it really — structure? i confess i find it really rather _ structure? i confess i find it really rather difficult. - really rather difficult. interministerial - really rather difficult. . interministerial groups, really rather difficult. - interministerial groups, into really rather difficult. _ interministerial groups, into the ntinisteriai— interministerial groups, into the ministerial standing _ interministerial groups, into the ministerial standing committees interministerial groups, into the - ministerial standing committees and time-limited— ministerial standing committees and time—limited interministerial- time—limited interministerial ct>n1n1itted~_ time—limited interministerial committed. not _ time—limited interministerial committed. not exactly- committed. not exactly straightforward - committed. not exactly straightforward to - committed. not exactly- straightforward to understand. it committed. not exactly— straightforward to understand. it is of a complex _ straightforward to understand. of a complex and i think straightforward to understand. ii}, iii: of a complex and i think that is straightforward to understand.- of a complex and i think that is one of a complex and i think that is one of the _ of a complex and i think that is one of the things we have learnt since the structure came into being. it needs— the structure came into being. it needs to — the structure came into being. it needs to be streamlined and pared back _ needs to be streamlined and pared back. essentially it has three levels — back. essentially it has three levels it— back. essentially it has three levels. it has ministers meeting on their own _ levels. it has ministers meeting on their own portfolio areas. there are two committees then which stand over the ministerial committees, one dealing — the ministerial committees, one dealing with finance and one with other— dealing with finance and one with other things, and then at the top of this pyramid, a council of ministers which _ this pyramid, a council of ministers which involve the prime minister and the first— which involve the prime minister and the first ministers. but i would agree — the first ministers. but i would agree with you, my experience of this so— agree with you, my experience of this so far— agree with you, my experience of this so far is it is overelaborate. i this so far is it is overelaborate. i want _ this so far is it is overelaborate. i want to— this so far is it is overelaborate. i want to next ask you some questions about information sharing between the four nations, particularly the sharing of scientific information. i will start with questions about sage. in january and february, the welsh government primary source of scientific and medical information about the virus came from sage and you say at paragraph 30 of your statement for module two that this was a comfort to you at the early stage of the pandemic to know that sage would meet regularly. however, as we have seen the first five sage meetings went ahead without any representatives of the welsh government. did that concern you, that those early sage meetings going into early february did not have a welsh voice around the table? well... i think a number of answers to that _ well... i think a number of answers to that first— well... i think a number of answers to that. first of all, we were fortunate. _ to that. first of all, we were fortunate, and i don't think it is anything — fortunate, and i don't think it is anything more than that, that our chief— anything more than that, that our chief scientific officer for health, robert _ chief scientific officer for health, robert awford, was well known and well connected to people who were on stage. _ well connected to people who were on stage. so— well connected to people who were on stage. so i_ well connected to people who were on stage, so i always felt we had a direct— stage, so i always felt we had a direct line — stage, so i always felt we had a direct line into the sage discussions. as that month moved on, i did discussions. as that month moved on, i did come _ discussions. as that month moved on, i did come to — discussions. as that month moved on, i did come to be more anxious that we had _ i did come to be more anxious that we had somebody in the room while those _ we had somebody in the room while those discussions were taking place, rather— those discussions were taking place, rather than _ those discussions were taking place, rather than having a good readout of the discussions, and particularly later— the discussions, and particularly later on— the discussions, and particularly later on anxious about our ability to but— later on anxious about our ability to put questions directly to sage that were pertinent to wales. but in those _ that were pertinent to wales. but in those very— that were pertinent to wales. but in those very early days it did not occur _ those very early days it did not occur to — those very early days it did not occur to me that there was a particularly welsh angle on what was a global— particularly welsh angle on what was a global phenomenon on so sage in those _ a global phenomenon on so sage in those early— a global phenomenon on so sage in those early days was less concerned with domestic impacts than in collecting the information of what was happening elsewhere in the globe _ was happening elsewhere in the globe. at that point i did not myself— globe. at that point i did not myself see that there was a particularly welsh angle or contribution to that. in the beginning i did not have concerns. they— beginning i did not have concerns. they did _ beginning i did not have concerns. they did grow a little as the weeks went bv~ _ they did grow a little as the weeks went b . , ., they did grow a little as the weeks went b . , . . went by. the inquiry heard evidence in module two _ went by. the inquiry heard evidence in module two from _ went by. the inquiry heard evidence in module two from professor - in module two from professor henderson that sage data and advice had an english frame of reference. from what you have just said, do you agree with that? from what you have 'ust said, do you agree with that?— agree with that? well, i do agree with it to an _ agree with that? well, i do agree with it to an extent. _ agree with that? well, i do agree with it to an extent. the - agree with that? well, i do agree with it to an extent. the uk - agree with that? well, i do agree with it to an extent. the uk is - agree with that? well, i do agree with it to an extent. the uk is a l with it to an extent. the uk is a voluntary— with it to an extent. the uk is a voluntary association of four nations _ voluntary association of four nations but they are very different in size _ nations but they are very different in size and — nations but they are very different in size and scale. if you have a population— in size and scale. if you have a population of 55 million to draw evidence — population of 55 million to draw evidence from, that is or is going to provide — evidence from, that is or is going to provide you with a richer source of evidence — to provide you with a richer source of evidence that a population of 3 million _ of evidence that a population of 3 million so— of evidence that a population of 3 million. so in some ways i don't think— million. so in some ways i don't think we — million. so in some ways i don't think we should be surprised that a lot of— think we should be surprised that a lot of the _ think we should be surprised that a lot of the information that sage has is from _ lot of the information that sage has is from the — lot of the information that sage has is from the largest nation. however, there _ is from the largest nation. however, there were _ is from the largest nation. however, there were times when they would have been— there were times when they would have been specific dimensions, that were pertinent to wales, where you struggle _ were pertinent to wales, where you struggle a _ were pertinent to wales, where you struggle a bit to see where it sage was finding the evidence it might have needed to make sure that welsh circumstances were being taken into account _ circumstances were being taken into account in— circumstances were being taken into account in its deliberations. you identify another _ account in its deliberations. gm, identify another issue with sage at paragraph 30 of your module to witness statement. you say there was no reliable protocol, which made it clear that sage invite work for all four nations and notjust for england. you give two reasons for that. first, you say you had to ask cobra to make sage advice available to the welsh government, and secondly you could not ask sage to carry out any bespoke research without prior agreement from cobra. is that right? that without prior agreement from cobra. is that right?— without prior agreement from cobra. is that right?_ the - is that right? that is right. the technical advisory _ is that right? that is right. the technical advisory cell - is that right? that is right. the technical advisory cell that - is that right? that is right. the technical advisory cell that was is that right? that is right. the - technical advisory cell that was set “p technical advisory cell that was set up on the 27th of february and the inquiry has heard evidence that that was set up because sage output needed to be interpreted into a welsh context. given the lack of welsh context. given the lack of welsh representation at sage, the fact that sage papers were not being shared with welsh government until i think it is early april, the limitations on commissioning that you refer to in your witness statement, and the lack of welsh specific interpretation until you get set up, was it the situation in february that the welsh government was not in a position to question any advice coming out of sage? i any advice coming out of sage? i don't think we were not in any position— don't think we were not in any position because our chief scientific adviser in health was well connected to sage, able to let us know— well connected to sage, able to let us know what was happening and able to ask— us know what was happening and able to ask questions on behalf of wales. what i _ to ask questions on behalf of wales. what i think happened is that the limitations that you enumerated get resolved _ limitations that you enumerated get resolved over the weeks that those issues _ resolved over the weeks that those issues come to the fore. today you would _ issues come to the fore. today you would hope — issues come to the fore. today you would hope that those things would have been in place from the beginning. they were not, but they were identified and resolved. if you had growing _ were identified and resolved. if you had growing concerns _ were identified and resolved. if you had growing concerns that - were identified and resolved. if you had growing concerns that the welsh specific _ had growing concerns that the welsh specific features _ had growing concerns that the welsh specific features were _ had growing concerns that the welsh specific features were not _ had growing concerns that the welsh specific features were not being - specific features were not being reflected — specific features were not being reflected in— specific features were not being reflected in sage, _ specific features were not being reflected in sage, could - specific features were not being reflected in sage, could you - specific features were not beingj reflected in sage, could you not have _ reflected in sage, could you not have set — reflected in sage, could you not have set up _ reflected in sage, could you not have set up tack— reflected in sage, could you not have set up tack and _ reflected in sage, could you not have set up tack and tag - reflected in sage, could you not have set up tack and tag earlier| reflected in sage, could you not . have set up tack and tag earlier to -et have set up tack and tag earlier to get the _ have set up tack and tag earlier to get the welsh _ have set up tack and tag earlier to get the welsh specific _ have set up tack and tag earlier to get the welsh specific focus? - have set up tack and tag earlier to get the welsh specific focus? i - get the welsh specific focus? i think get the welsh specific focus? think if though this were to get the welsh specific focus?_ think if though this were to happen again— think if though this were to happen again you _ think if though this were to happen again you would hope that tag and attack— again you would hope that tag and attack would be there from the beginning but i think, as i say, these — beginning but i think, as i say, these realisations are dawning as these realisations are dawning as the weeks — these realisations are dawning as the weeks go by and you begin to realise _ the weeks go by and you begin to realise some of the limitations of your starting point and then we'd do a setup _ your starting point and then we'd do a setup tag — your starting point and then we'd do a setup tag and tack and i was always— a setup tag and tack and i was always extremely grateful for the people _ always extremely grateful for the people who provided their time and expertise _ people who provided their time and expertise to us in that way, even if we in _ expertise to us in that way, even if we in the _ expertise to us in that way, even if we in the future event had better representation at sage, better access— representation at sage, better access to _ representation at sage, better access to their information, better ability— access to their information, better ability to— access to their information, better ability to ask them to do work. i would _ ability to ask them to do work. i would still— ability to ask them to do work. i would still have tag and tack, i wouldn't — would still have tag and tack, i wouldn't not have them because i think— wouldn't not have them because i think the — wouldn't not have them because i think the job they did in turning that more — think the job they did in turning that more general information into specific— that more general information into specific advice for wales would still be — specific advice for wales would still be very, very valuable. as well as still be very, very valuable. well as tag still be very, very valuable. is well as tag and still be very, very valuable. s well as tag and tack still be very, very valuable. is well as tag and tack being established earlier, in the event of a future pandemic you would be calling for welsh representatives to be on sage from the outset? to calling for welsh representatives to be on sage from the outset?- be on sage from the outset? to my mind that would _ be on sage from the outset? to my mind that would be _ be on sage from the outset? to my mind that would be an _ be on sage from the outset? to my mind that would be an important i mind that would be an important lesson— mind that would be an important lesson of— mind that would be an important lesson of the experience we lived through — lesson of the experience we lived through. as lesson of the experience we lived throu~h. �* , lesson of the experience we lived throu~h. . , through. as well as sage, information _ through. as well as sage, information about - through. as well as sage, information about the - through. as well as sage, | information about the virus through. as well as sage, - information about the virus in january and february was obviously being relate to you and the welsh government through participation in cobra meetings. the first three meetings where the 24th of january, 29th of january and the 5th of february. welsh covenant was represented by vaughan gething in his capacity for minister of health and social care at those meetings. those initial meetings and the next two, the 18th of february and 26th of february, they were chaired by the secretary of state for health, mr hancock, and it is not until the 2nd of march that we see the first meeting being chaired by mrjohnson. it is obviously quite permissible for cobra not to be chaired by the prime minister. indeed it can be chaired by any official. you, however, commented on your evidence that there is a clear enough case for concluding that the prime minister should have chaired cobra meetings but you say the purposes of reaching different outcomes in terms of cobra but in terms of giving a great impression that the crisis was being taken seriously. is that right? being taken seriously. is that riuht? , ., being taken seriously. is that ri. ht? , ., ., being taken seriously. is that riuht? , . ., ., , right? yes. i have attended many cobra meetings _ right? yes. i have attended many cobra meetings not _ right? yes. i have attended many cobra meetings not to _ right? yes. i have attended many cobra meetings not to do - right? yes. i have attended many cobra meetings not to do with - right? yes. i have attended many| cobra meetings not to do with the pandemic— cobra meetings not to do with the pandemic at all but other crises and it is very— pandemic at all but other crises and it is very ordinary for them to be chaired — it is very ordinary for them to be chaired by— it is very ordinary for them to be chaired by the minister with the greatest — chaired by the minister with the greatest direct responsibility for them, _ greatest direct responsibility for them, so — greatest direct responsibility for them, so the fact that the prime minister— them, so the fact that the prime minister was not there at the beginning, i don't think people should — beginning, i don't think people should read that as something extraordinary. but as the pace of concern — extraordinary. but as the pace of concern begins to gather, i think in retrospect— concern begins to gather, i think in retrospect you could say that the prime _ retrospect you could say that the prime minister at's involvement in chairing _ prime minister at's involvement in chairing cobra earlier than he did would _ chairing cobra earlier than he did would have sent a stronger signal about— would have sent a stronger signal about the — would have sent a stronger signal about the seriousness with which the gathering _ about the seriousness with which the gathering storm was being taken. the first gathering storm was being taken. first cobra gathering storm was being taken. tie: first cobra meeting you attended was the 18th of february, so you did not attend the first three meetings. might it be said that your nonattendance to those first three meetings indicated that the unfolding crisis was not being taken seriously by the welsh government? well, there are two reasons why i wouldn't — well, there are two reasons why i wouldn't agree to that proposition. first of— wouldn't agree to that proposition. first of all. — wouldn't agree to that proposition. first of all, at that point, the approach _ first of all, at that point, the approach to the pandemic is still very health dominated. it is still being _ very health dominated. it is still being dealt with in the department of health, in london, and the actions — of health, in london, and the actions inside the welsh government are very— actions inside the welsh government are very much concentrated around our health— are very much concentrated around our health minister, as well. sol think— our health minister, as well. sol think health minister going to a cobra _ think health minister going to a cobra chaired by the health minister of the _ cobra chaired by the health minister of the uk _ cobra chaired by the health minister of the uk government to talk about health— of the uk government to talk about health matters is not unreasonable. and the _ health matters is not unreasonable. and the second point is, of course, that vaughan gething is a very senior— that vaughan gething is a very senior minister in my ministerial team _ senior minister in my ministerial team and — senior minister in my ministerial team and i— senior minister in my ministerial team and i have full confidence that he will _ team and i have full confidence that he will represent the welsh government and interests in the fullest _ government and interests in the fullest extent. we understand there would have been discussion in those early cobra meetings about public health matters and at that stage, the virus had not been declared a pandemic but by mid january it had spread to thailand and japan. uk scientists who are reporting a 12% hospitalisation rate and there was evidence of limited human—to—human transmission. so do you not think you should have involved yourself in those early discussions concerning what would have been very worrying virus? i have been very worrying virus? i think, as you have said, discussions were _ think, as you have said, discussions were focused on health evidence and health— were focused on health evidence and health responses. at that point i believed — health responses. at that point i believed the person best placed to represent the welsh government in those _ represent the welsh government in those discussions was the person with those — those discussions was the person with those health responsibilities in the _ with those health responsibilities in the welsh government. the cobra meeting _ in the welsh government. the cobra meeting you attended on the 18th of february. _ meeting you attended on the 18th of february, if we can see those minutes— february, if we can see those minutes please? this was the meeting chaired _ minutes please? this was the meeting chaired by— minutes please? this was the meeting chaired by the secretary of state for health, mr hancock. look please at page _ for health, mr hancock. look please at page five — for health, mr hancock. look please at page five and we see there, you are dialled — at page five and we see there, you are dialled in as first minister for wales _ are dialled in as first minister for wales. paragraph two and page five, there _ wales. paragraph two and page five, there is— wales. paragraph two and page five, there is an _ wales. paragraph two and page five, there is an update on the current situation — there is an update on the current situation. paragraph three, you were told there _ situation. paragraph three, you were told there is— situation. paragraph three, you were told there is nine positive cases confirmed — told there is nine positive cases confirmed in the uk, discussion of repatriation of uk nationals from the diamond princess cruise ship. if he can— the diamond princess cruise ship. if he can go— the diamond princess cruise ship. if he can go to — the diamond princess cruise ship. if he can go to page six please, paragraph 11. discussion about what legislation would be used to respond to covid—19, stated there... any bill would — to covid—19, stated there... any bill would be employed on a reasonable worst—case scenario, it is not _ reasonable worst—case scenario, it is not for— reasonable worst—case scenario, it is not for cobra decide whether to legislate _ is not for cobra decide whether to legislate or not. and over the page to paragraph 13. the legislative policv _ to paragraph 13. the legislative policy paper introduced and mr hancock— policy paper introduced and mr hancock emphasised any bill would cover— hancock emphasised any bill would cover the _ hancock emphasised any bill would cover the four nations of the uk. can we _ cover the four nations of the uk. can we look— cover the four nations of the uk. can we look at the legislative policv — can we look at the legislative policy paper? can we zoom in on paragraph — policy paper? can we zoom in on paragraph two, please? it makes it clear here — paragraph two, please? it makes it clear here the final decision on what _ clear here the final decision on what provisions the final bill would contain _ what provisions the final bill would contain and its parliamentary handling _ contain and its parliamentary handling would be taken by number ten and _ handling would be taken by number ten and the parliamentary business and legislation committee in light of the _ and legislation committee in light of the latest scientific evidence from _ of the latest scientific evidence from sage. 18th february, you understood from the outset, did newcomer— understood from the outset, did newcomer the choice of legislation pursuant— newcomer the choice of legislation pursuant of which emergency powers with the _ pursuant of which emergency powers with the exercise would be a decision— with the exercise would be a decision for the uk government? that was my— decision for the uk government? that was my very— decision for the uk government? that was my very clear impression at that time _ was my very clear impression at that time. because legislation was to be discussed _ time. because legislation was to be discussed at that meeting is one of the reasons why i attended it myself, — the reasons why i attended it myself, because you are now going beyond _ myself, because you are now going beyond the health brief itself. and the fact _ beyond the health brief itself. and the fact the committee would not be able to— the fact the committee would not be able to make those decisions without the prime _ able to make those decisions without the prime minister being there, i think— the prime minister being there, i think is— the prime minister being there, i think is another argument for why the prime — think is another argument for why the prime minister might have chaired — the prime minister might have chaired cobra a little earlier than he did _ chaired cobra a little earlier than he did. we obviously know the uk government had done its statute books _ government had done its statute books the — government had done its statute books the civil contingencies act 2004 _ books the civil contingencies act 2004 it— books the civil contingencies act 2004. ., ,., books the civil contingencies act 2004. ., ., ., , ., ., y 2004. it also had on the statutory books the public _ 2004. it also had on the statutory books the public health _ 2004. it also had on the statutory books the public health and - 2004. it also had on the statutoryl books the public health and control of disease act. under the former, under the civil contingencies act he would have understood decisions would have understood decisions would be made by the uk government and the welsh government would act as a category one responder so effectively implementing decisions made by the uk government. whereas under the public health act it would be their welsh government making the decisions for themselves. we can agree that the choice of legislation used to respond to the pandemic would have huge implications for the devolved administrations and the type of structured response to the pandemic across the uk? absolutely. you sa in pandemic across the uk? absolutely. you say in paragraph _ pandemic across the uk? absolutely. you say in paragraph 22, _ pandemic across the uk? absolutely. you say in paragraph 22, your- you say in paragraph 22, your assumption at the 18th of february cobra meetings, said the minute we have just looked at, was the response to covid—19 would be a uk government response and the decisions would be taken by the uk government? so your assumption at that time was the uk response would be based essentially on provisions which existed for the introduction of emergency powers under the civil contingencies act? that of emergency powers under the civil contingencies act?— contingencies act? that was my assumption _ contingencies act? that was my assumption at _ contingencies act? that was my assumption at that _ contingencies act? that was my assumption at that time. - contingencies act? that was my assumption at that time. the i assumption at that time. the legislative — assumption at that time. tie: legislative response were discussed again at a cobra meeting on the 26th of february, a meeting chaired by mr hancock and attended by vaughn gething on behalf of the welsh government. we don't need the minutes, but we can see what you say in your witness statement... paragraph 23, thank you very much. my paragraph 23, thank you very much. my understanding is an emergency coronavirus bill was considered to be the legislative vehicle. the discussion around the legislative options was the viewpoint of the uk government and it was uk government to exercise their relevant powers in the uk civil act. but it would mirror the scheme of civil sacked. your impression in late february was, as you say, the uk government would be introducing legislation mirroring the essential scheme of the cca and primary decision—making would be made with the uk government. did you voice or did you have any concerns about that legislative response to the pandemic at that stage, or you content that was appropriate response? mast was appropriate response? most government — was appropriate response? most government officials _ was appropriate response? most government officials are - was appropriate response? most government officials are engaged in discussions about the bill. i am not anxious— discussions about the bill. i am not anxious about not having a voice in the process — anxious about not having a voice in the process. my own impression at the process. my own impression at the time _ the process. my own impression at the time was that the uk government ministers _ the time was that the uk government ministers primary objection to using the civil— ministers primary objection to using the civil contingencies act was it would _ the civil contingencies act was it would require them to go to parliament every seven days in order to renew _ parliament every seven days in order to renew the — parliament every seven days in order to renew the powers they were exercising and they felt that would be over— exercising and they felt that would be over burdensome in the circumstances of a pandemic. so my belief— circumstances of a pandemic. so my belief was— circumstances of a pandemic. so my belief was that in the emergency bill they— belief was that in the emergency bill they would continue to take the sweeter— bill they would continue to take the sweeter powers the civil contingencies act provided to them, but make _ contingencies act provided to them, but make them more workable from their point— but make them more workable from their point of view. if we but make them more workable from their point of view.— their point of view. if we can look at the next _ their point of view. if we can look at the next six _ their point of view. if we can look at the next six lines _ their point of view. if we can look at the next six lines of _ their point of view. if we can look at the next six lines of the - their point of view. if we can look at the next six lines of the same | at the next six lines of the same paragraph where it says, i have not anticipated the uk government would use the health protection legislation as the basis responding to the pandemic. once the course of action have been determined it in place an onus and the unintended consequences for this divergence. we will talk about diversions in and what you describe as unintended consequences of that decision a bit later. i would just like to focus on when the decision was taken to legislate using public health powers as opposed to the cca and the impact it had on welsh government decision—making? and you say we don't need it pulled up, but it is in your supplement to witness statement for module to and paragraph four, you say on or around the 2nd of march the uk government made the decision not to use the cca. however, your understanding was evenif cca. however, your understanding was even if the coronavirus act would be the legislative vehicle, the uk would be the primary decision maker onceit would be the primary decision maker once it had received royal assent. you working assumption hasn't shifted at that stage, by the 2nd of march. we then skip forward to a cobra meeting on the 20th of march and you deal with this on paragraph two. the meeting recommended the public health act 1984 views rather than the cca is the legal basis for government action in responding to the pandemic. i am right in saying that the 20th of march cobra meeting, it was the first time that you were told the public health powers would be used to respond to the pandemic? i do powers would be used to respond to the pandemic?— the pandemic? i do think this is a profoundly _ the pandemic? i do think this is a profoundly important _ the pandemic? i do think this is a profoundly important part - the pandemic? i do think this is a profoundly important part of- the pandemic? i do think this is a profoundly important part of the l profoundly important part of the debate — profoundly important part of the debate i— profoundly important part of the debate. i know the dangers of looking — debate. i know the dangers of looking retrospectively at these things. — looking retrospectively at these things, but the lack of clarity over the legislative basis for the powers that will— the legislative basis for the powers that will be needed continued all the way— that will be needed continued all the way through march. my belief, i’ilht the way through march. my belief, right up— the way through march. my belief, right up until the 20th of march is that the _ right up until the 20th of march is that the essential decisions would remain— that the essential decisions would remain in— that the essential decisions would remain in the hands of the uk government and that devolved governments would be implementers of those decisions. even at the 20th of march, _ those decisions. even at the 20th of march, there is further confusion over— march, there is further confusion over the — march, there is further confusion over the next couple of days as to where _ over the next couple of days as to where the — over the next couple of days as to where the ability to exercise public health _ where the ability to exercise public health powers lie. and there is an extraordinary exchange of messages between _ extraordinary exchange of messages between michael gove and matt hancock — between michael gove and matt hancock on the 30th of may in which mr hancock— hancock on the 30th of may in which mr hancock says, i have seen the submission _ mr hancock says, i have seen the submission. it is disgraceful that lawyers — submission. it is disgraceful that lawyers don't understand where these powers _ lawyers don't understand where these powers lie _ lawyers don't understand where these powers lie because public health is not devolved. so here is the secretary _ not devolved. so here is the secretary of state for health in england — secretary of state for health in england getting the most basic thing entirely— england getting the most basic thing entirely wrong. he has advice from his lawyers, — entirely wrong. he has advice from his lawyers, which is correct that once _ his lawyers, which is correct that once the — his lawyers, which is correct that once the decision had been made he was the _ once the decision had been made he was the 1984 powers and the decisions would move to scotland, wales— decisions would move to scotland, wales and — decisions would move to scotland, wales and northern ireland and for ministers _ wales and northern ireland and for ministers in london for england. and that we _ ministers in london for england. and that we would have an obligation to discharge _ that we would have an obligation to discharge those responsibilities once _ discharge those responsibilities once they were placed in our hands. but as— once they were placed in our hands. but as late — once they were placed in our hands. but as late as the 30th of may the secretary — but as late as the 30th of may the secretary of state gets that entirely wrong in his exchange with michael— entirely wrong in his exchange with michael gove. if he were to look to the future — michael gove. if he were to look to the future and draw any lessons from the future and draw any lessons from the experience, then getting clarity early about the legal basis on which these _ early about the legal basis on which these most profoundly consequential decisions _ these most profoundly consequential decisions were being made. ithink that is— decisions were being made. ithink that is when you work your way through— that is when you work your way through it _ that is when you work your way through it again, it is pretty alarming _ through it again, it is pretty alarming that on the 20th of march we are _ alarming that on the 20th of march we are still— alarming that on the 20th of march we are still resolving this. both nations knew _ we are still resolving this. both nations knew they _ we are still resolving this. both nations knew they had - we are still resolving this. exit? nations knew they had public we are still resolving this. ifizfrii�*u nations knew they had public health act powers on their own statute books. just playing devils advocate, could it not be said that you ought to have been, rather than assuming, it would be the cca or a new bill but a version of the cca that would be used as the legislative vehicle to respond to the pandemic? should you not have been questioning that as far back as the 18th of february when there was the first discussion about legislative response and asking, where is this going? given it has, as you say, a profound impact? it has, as you say, a profound imact? . ., . impact? that would have required cuite an impact? that would have required quite an imaginative _ impact? that would have required quite an imaginative leap - impact? that would have required quite an imaginative leap on - impact? that would have required quite an imaginative leap on the l quite an imaginative leap on the part of— quite an imaginative leap on the part of the welsh government. cobra is constructed on the basis that the cca lies _ is constructed on the basis that the cca lies behind the decision is that it will— cca lies behind the decision is that it will take — cca lies behind the decision is that it will take and there was no suggestion at all that that was going — suggestion at all that that was going to — suggestion at all that that was going to be any different. other discussions about legislation seemed to me _ discussions about legislation seemed to me to— discussions about legislation seemed to me to be clearly on the premise that decision—making in a national emergency— that decision—making in a national emergency would lie in the hands of uk ministers. i think it would have been _ uk ministers. i think it would have been quite — uk ministers. i think it would have been quite a sidestep for the welsh government to say but surely there is a different way of doing this using — is a different way of doing this using powers we have already got? quite _ using powers we have already got? quite clearly, that had not occurred to me _ quite clearly, that had not occurred to me because the 20th of march is the first— to me because the 20th of march is the first point at which i begin to realise _ the first point at which i begin to realise that this is a looming realitv _ realise that this is a looming reali . ., . reality. you say in your evidence that once _ reality. you say in your evidence that once the _ reality. you say in your evidence that once the decision _ reality. you say in your evidence that once the decision had - reality. you say in your evidence that once the decision had been| that once the decision had been taken, this was a decision you agreed with because health is a devolved matter and using public health powers would allow the welsh government to respond to wales' specific circumstances. you go on to say, paragraph 195 of your witness statement, that once the determination was made to rely on public health powers, the responsibility for this decision—making was disbursed to each uk nation and you believe this allowed the welsh government to calibrate a response which reflected our particular circumstances in which are stained the broad support support of all citizens. it is a similar theme to my last question, if you agree, once the decision had been made and you agreed with these public health powers, why were you not advocating on behalf of wales for public health powers to be used to respond to a pandemic rather than the cca, or a version of the cca? because until the 20th of march, there _ because until the 20th of march, there was— because until the 20th of march, there was no suggestion at all that was the _ there was no suggestion at all that was the turn of thinking that the uk government had come to. they do come to it, government had come to. they do come to it. maybe _ government had come to. they do come to it. maybe i_ government had come to. they do come to it, maybe i would have changed one word — to it, maybe i would have changed one word in — to it, maybe i would have changed one word in my own statement, it isn't _ one word in my own statement, it isn't simplv — one word in my own statement, it isn't simply that it is a decision to use — isn't simply that it is a decision to use public health powers allow us welsh _ to use public health powers allow us welsh ministers, it requires welsh ministers — welsh ministers, it requires welsh ministers. these and become your responsibilities, you have no option but to— responsibilities, you have no option but to exercise them because the responsibility has been placed in your hands. responsibility has been placed in your hands-— responsibility has been placed in our hands. ., . ,, ., your hands. coming back to the point i said we would _ your hands. coming back to the point i said we would pick— your hands. coming back to the point i said we would pick up _ your hands. coming back to the point i said we would pick up on _ your hands. coming back to the point i said we would pick up on about - i said we would pick up on about unintended consequences refer to in your witness was that something that your witness was that something that you thought at the time was appreciated by the uk government? it appreciated by the uk government? it is probably what i meant when i used the words _ is probably what i meant when i used the words unintended consequences. i don't think— the words unintended consequences. i don't think it _ the words unintended consequences. i don't think it was apparent to uk ministers — don't think it was apparent to uk ministers at the time, by placing that responsibility at the nation level. _ that responsibility at the nation level, that meant that they would now have — level, that meant that they would now have decisions being made by others _ now have decisions being made by others by— now have decisions being made by others by others over which they had no direct— others by others over which they had no direct control. i think that was a dawning — no direct control. i think that was a dawning realisation for uk ministers. you can begin to see it as early— ministers. you can begin to see it as early as — ministers. you can begin to see it as early as the 23rd of march, the decision— as early as the 23rd of march, the decision of— as early as the 23rd of march, the decision of cobra in lockdown. because — decision of cobra in lockdown. because there are already nuances that are _ because there are already nuances that are different there. there is a discussion— that are different there. there is a discussion in which the mayor of london. — discussion in which the mayor of london, myself and the first minister— london, myself and the first minister of scotland argue construction site should be covered by the _ construction site should be covered by the new— construction site should be covered by the new arrangements. the uk government is taking a different view _ government is taking a different view. there are already small signs from _ view. there are already small signs from the _ view. there are already small signs from the very beginning that they would _ from the very beginning that they would be — from the very beginning that they would be some differences in implementation. but i think it was a dawning _ implementation. but i think it was a dawning process rather than a clearly — dawning process rather than a clearly plumbed in recognition from the outset. . , , ~ clearly plumbed in recognition from the outset. . ,, ~ , .~ clearly plumbed in recognition from the outset. . , , ~ , . ,, . the outset. perhaps mr drake that, for some of— the outset. perhaps mr drake that, for some of the _ the outset. perhaps mr drake that, for some of the reasons _ the outset. perhaps mr drake that, for some of the reasons you - the outset. perhaps mr drake that, for some of the reasons you have l for some of the reasons you have just given, the inquiry has heard evidence from some uk government ministers and former ministers that they regret the decision not to use they regret the decision not to use the civil contingencies act to respond to the pandemic. mrjohnson, in his evidence has said that in the event of a future pandemic, the uk should be treated as a single epidemiological unit and the best approach is a uk wide one, with no differences between the four nations on the evidence was echoed by simon hart when he gave evidence to the same effect. do you agreed the best approach of a future pandemic is a uk wide response or would you see a response is that this pandemic, by using public health act again? i using public health act again? i definitely don't think that the evidence suggests to me that decisions made in london would have been better— decisions made in london would have been better decisions as far as wales— been better decisions as far as wales is— been better decisions as far as wales is concerned. we are inevitably closer to the ground, more _ inevitably closer to the ground, more aware of administrative structures, alert to the different patterns — structures, alert to the different patterns of the disease in the welsh case: _ patterns of the disease in the welsh case, simply better able to communicate in the bilingual way in which _ communicate in the bilingual way in which wales operates. i definitely don't _ which wales operates. i definitely don't agree that better decisions would _ don't agree that better decisions would have been made from whitehall than in _ would have been made from whitehall than in wales. i think there is a different— than in wales. i think there is a different way, however, in which strength — different way, however, in which strength and ability to coordinate between — strength and ability to coordinate between the four nations would have been preferable to the pattern that we ended _ been preferable to the pattern that we ended up with and that that would have allowed a different degree of coordination and joint decision—making we ended up with. and that _ decision—making we ended up with. and that is — decision—making we ended up with. and that is a preferable way, i think — and that is a preferable way, i think. �* ., . , ., think. before we leave the question of divergence. _ think. before we leave the question of divergence, he _ think. before we leave the question of divergence, he will _ think. before we leave the question of divergence, he will have - think. before we leave the question of divergence, he will have been i of divergence, he will have been aware that both mrjohnson and mr hart have given evidence to the inquiry that there was a risk of the devolved administrations being, in their words, devolved administrations being, in theirwords, different for devolved administrations being, in their words, different for the sake of being different. in fact, mr hart went further and stated the welsh government actively sought differentiation for no other reason than to be different and to set world's than to be different and to set worlds apart from the other nations in the uk. was the need to be different for the sake of being different for the sake of being different ever part of your thinking or the thinking of the lodge government? i absolutely refute the assertion. he provided no evidence at all. i am a believer— he provided no evidence at all. i am a believer in — he provided no evidence at all. i am a believer in the united kingdom. i lead a _ a believer in the united kingdom. i lead a government that wants the united _ lead a government that wants the united kingdom to succeed and faces considerable political opposition from _ considerable political opposition from people who believe that wales's future _ from people who believe that wales's future will _ from people who believe that wales's future will be better separated from the united kingdom. i had no motivation of any sort to make decisions — motivation of any sort to make decisions for the sake of being different. i think my effort through the whole — different. i think my effort through the whole pandemic was to try to find better ways of coming together to make _ find better ways of coming together to make better informed decisions. i don't _ to make better informed decisions. i don't think— to make better informed decisions. i don't think the prime minister or the secretary of state could offer you a _ the secretary of state could offer you a single specific instance to justify— you a single specific instance to justify the charges that they have made _ justify the charges that they have made. we justify the charges that they have made. ~ ., . ._ ., made. we will move away from legislation. _ made. we will move away from legislation, devolution, - made. we will move away from - legislation, devolution, divergence, and ask you some questions about the welsh government's initial response in the early months of january to march 2020. you see in your evidence that although you were aware of covid in january and that although you were aware of covid injanuary and february, it was not a priority of the welsh government, and you go on

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